Deyo, LaCroix, Willis: 2023, The Year in Review

Wow. As we are concluding the year twenty twenty three, we want to look back at some of the important discoveries that occurred that made news that maybe we're under the currents of the orthodoxy, but still present questions about our past. That is what we are going to tackle today with my group of panelists

from around the United States. These are people who have their hands in the discoveries, who are writing about this material, who are providing us an understanding of where these new discoveries and fines are being placed in Stacey's until we can get an understanding of just how important they are. This week, we are looking at discoveries made around the world, and we're bringing it to you here on the program. All this and more today on Earth Ancients or Saturday,

December thirtieth, twenty twenty three. This is Earth Ancients. I'm your host, Cliff Dunning. Here we are. We're at the end of the year. The end of twenty twenty three seems to have gone awfully quick. I felt that it was a good year. I don't know how you're feeling. Hopefully it was workable. Obviously you're listening so here. You didn't leave the planet. A lot of people did leave the planet and different parts of the

world are having their strife and issues, but hopefully you're doing well. And this is our last program, The Last Earth Ancients for twenty twenty three, and oh boy, I so much to talk about, but we're going to condense it a little bit and have a review. And I've invited some friends

to join me to discuss three the year in review. And these are discoveries that were made in different parts of the planet and you might be surprised to hear a few of the highlights that we'll be discussing today and kind of brings the year into focus and sets the stage for twenty twenty four. Twenty twenty four is going to be here, at least here in the United States.

We have our presidential election and that is a huge deal. So that's going to be everywhere and so that is something to look forward to for some of us. Others of us would rather avoid the whole political scene. There's a lot of issues revolving around red and blue states, and that's what's it's kind of an issue is the fact that we're not united at the moment, and

we're actually divided here in the United States. That is into red and blue camps, and I'm hoping we can resolve that and kind of get back on, kind of get back together as a unified country, because it's it's not good. So, But on the program today, we are talking about a

number of important discoveries. Some of them are actually quite fun to talk about, simply because they highlight a lot of the topic that we bring here each week on Earth Ancients and this is ancient unknown civilizations, discoveries regarding those, and of course, you know, where does the Orthodox fit in on this? Where are the archaeologists, the Egyptologists and the others who are writing our

history fall into place? And that's always the question. I like to think that here on the program we are on the cutting edge of new discoveries, either revealing those that have been uncovered over the years, or new discoveries that are shedding light on where we've been, what we're all about, and what our ancestors were doing, perhaps before our written history. I hope also that

you have been enjoying destiny now. Destiny, for those of you who listen on a regular basis, fits nicely with Earth Age, just because we're talking about practices that in many cases are not around anymore. Meditative practices, wellness practices with food, body works, stretching movement of the body. And I think, and i'd like to think I should say that this is a compliment

to what we have on the show Earth Ancients. And when I say compliment, that's kind of like, you know, okay, here we talk about a discovery of an ancient civilization, and that's where we leave it on Earth Angels. Then we can dive into what were their lifestyles and we'll have an author on Destiny who will describe a food or a practice that is coming back into vogue. And when I say that, it's not far fetched, I mean, look at yoga. Yoga was introduced to the United States in the

sixties, late sixties, and now it's a phenomenon. I mean, when it first came out, people were like, yoga stretching your body, what's that all about? Well, little do we know that yoga is over five

thousand years old, And I think it's actually older. I think there's some Vedic texts that hint at body movements that are Yogic in style, and this is one of these exercises that is fascinating simply because we're beginning to understand is understand that if you stretch in a certain way, not only does it open ligaments, musculature, and bones, but it actually activates hormones and other beneficial flow into the body, mind and possibly the spirit that keeps us connected to

the earth, to the higher realms. And when I say higher realms, it's like, what does that mean? Well, that's the state of nirvana where you're connecting with your higher self, where you're connecting with your soul, You're connecting with these other lifetimes that we talk about on Destiny. And I think the more and more we begin to understand past lives, it's like, hey, forget religion, forget everything we think we know about life, death

and birth. These past lives are intricate parts of who we are now. We don't know how we script. We can guess that how we script each life, but until we have some other kind of foundation behind how we are birth into each life, we can only guess. We can only read from ancient texts that kind of give us a hint. We don't have a way to tap into the soul at this point to really fully understand just how that

works. The life death process but it's fascinating, fascinating to consider. So and that's the esoteric part part of Earth Ancients that I appreciate and I hope you do too. So Earth Ancients and Destiny in many ways are linked, and I think as you listen to both, you'll kind of get a sense of that. So today's program includes my guests today and that's author Matt Lacroix, Reverend Jim Willis, and our own archaeologist Jen Dale. And our program

today is twenty twenty three, the Year in Review. So each year we do the best of the best we have for the year in review. Twenty twenty three is coming to an end. I can't believe it. What happened to this year? It seems like it's January. We had a couple of tours this year with our Ancients and they were fantastic. But we're in December, We're almost at the end of the year, and I'm like, what happened? What happened? I think that's just what happens when you get older.

Things just you're so busy that things just move along. So what we're talking about today is a number of events, discoveries, and levels of consciousness that have. I've made news in twenty twenty three, and I have three friends with me today. I have Jen Dale, who is an archaeologist. Jim's been on the show quite a few times. She's quite a regular. Jen has a point of reference she's gonna present to us. Jim Willis author.

Jim has been one with us many times, author of American Cults, hidden History, Ancient Gods, and so on, and so for Jim seems to just he can't put the pen down, and he's spinning out books after books after book, and that's fantastic and it's always great to see Jim. And then we have a friend Matt Lacroix. I haven't seen Matt probably in about seven or eight years, and I thought, I gotta get Matt on the show. He's always rocking it. He's always got something unique to talk

about, and it's gotta be all I've good to see you too. Matt's the author of the Illusion of Us, the Stage in Time. I think he was talking about the Stage in Time about five or seven years ago. We've got a new book coming out. We'll talk about that. And each of these guests today have something unique to say, something to present to us that I find compelling. So hey, welcome everybody. Great to see you and thanks for joining me here on Earth. Ancients. Hey y'all, Jen,

so much to talk about. I want to start with you. Jen. This item that you brought up is in Zambias, yeah, Africa, and I can see why you thought it was unique, simply because it is so old, and I want you to talk a little bit about it. It was kind of an overview. It's not just the fact that it is the remains that are half million years old. It's more than that, isn't

it. Oh my gosh, yes, because not only is it half a million years old, but it also tells us that this early hominid was actually building and had some pretty complex thinking in regards to, you know, solving problems that we don't often attribute to early humans. So, for instance, this was found along the river bank in Zambia. And essentially what it is is they're interlocking logs and they've been deliberately crafted to allow them to fit together,

kind of think like that tongue and groove kind of building technique. And according to this new study that's just been put out, they were made by stone tools. They used stone tools which again speaks to greater cognitive complexity. It's so funny because you know, I'm a huge I love Neanderthal. I'm

not gonna lie. I love Neanderthal. I think they're hugely undervalued, and we often think of them as being kind of the adult of the ancient world, when in reality, I think we've found especially over the last couple of years, and I'm not insinuating that Neanderthal made this, but I'm just saying that in that we need to perhaps look at these early hominids under a new white and maybe delve into, you know, these tools that they create.

We often think, oh, they were hunters, or they were doing this, you know, they're almost always related to that type of activity, hunting activity. We rarely think of them building things, But in reality, why wouldn't they be building things, because they need to build structures. And in this instance, they built this nice little wood plank connecting so that people didn't

have to walk in a wet place. That's essentially what this was. This is like this little probably like through a wetland right where they have exactly exactly exactly, So think of it like that they're solving a problem because they don't want to fall down or get stuck in the mud or do something like that, which again speaks to that higher cognitive ability. Okay, and so then the you know, the big elephant in the room. It's half a million

years old, and we know that this is true. There's no turning back. And like Jim said on the front end of this call, things just keep getting older. And this is one of those things. Yeah, half of it's like four hundred and seventy four thousand. I mean, it's a pretty specific date they came up with. Is just mind blowing. And I think the article goes on to say that the second oldest is something like half that two hundred thousand. So this is a really a real discovery, isn't

it. And Yeah, and you know what gets me is not only the building of Neanderthal, but was it in uh it was in the streets, wasn't it straights of Gibraltar where they found the flute, the Neanderthal flute? And here you go, here you go. You've got to culture that was supposed to be the the big as Jed said, the adults, and here they are building these structures and taking part in the arts and doing music and

everything else. Boy, that that sounds pretty modern to me. It does, it does, And I think when you think in terms of these older humans, you know, there's so much that gets lost when things are this sold, so much that gets lost. And luckily around these water areas, yeah, there's there's great preservation for a lot of these items. And one of the cool things is is that this is unfortunate for a climate change. But as we head into more climate change, things start drawing up, like

lake beds, rivers. We're discovering more of these items that have kind of been in that that uh that you know, the the chamber of You know that the earth is perfectly created to preserve these wooden artifacts. So I'm not happy that the climate is changing, but I'm kind of excited that we get to find these things and maybe have a greater range of what we have available

to us to study. And what about I'm so glad to have an archaeologist here to ask us to what about the Neanderthal genes that show up in South America the ancient I mean, did they actually were they? Do you suppose able to travel across oceans and that kind of thing. I mean, that's the big question, isn't it? And I am a huge proponent of early maritime technology with early hominids. I think that that's highly probable. I mean, I mean, we have the evidence of that in Greece where we see

some of the earliest hominids. Well how they get there? I think that there's this again, this idea that you know, these earlier versions of us, even pre Homo sapien, we're just not as sophisticated as we are. But in reality, I think perhaps they were more. I mean, this is no shocker to anybody on this panel, but they were likely way more in tune with their natural environment. And we're problem solving in ways that we

haven't even like begun to wrap our brains around. Like I think that they just recently found a boat that was hands stitched in the Baltic or the Black Sea, I'm not recalling which, and that technology is lost to us. I mean, we know that there are still some native folks that do hand

stitching. There the coracle, these little round boats that you know, some people use in different parts of the world, But to find it on you know, the bed of the ocean, and to think back like we know that they sowed we've we've found Denisovan needles, We've found other needles in other places in these ancient you know, caves, and the luck of having the

preservation of that. But you know, there's also this idea that these early people were just walking around naked and freezing and didn't really have much going on. When you think that they could sew a boat, you now realize they could soak their clothing. They could. They were much more adaptable than we've given them credit for. So instead of talking about this ancient adult, we are now talking about a very sophisticated people, especially for their time, but

even for our time. I mean, doing things that you and I probably couldn't do. I couldn't sew a boat, I couldn't make a flute out of a reed. I couldn't build a wharf like that that would last half

a million years. That's unbelievable to me. I like they were at least pushing that narrative back so far now that we have to consider so many other possibilities in conjunction to what Jen is talking about, with not just how far back our story from this most primitive origins goes, but also all the other things that are in between, and I think, actually I'm very happy that Jen is on this call because I just I sent Cliff some of those pictures

that we're going to talk about when we come up here. But I would love an archaeologist to look at some of these and we can have a perspective to talk about timelines and origins and where things might fit. So thank you Jen for opening up decision the ticket to area code for two six ticket to Turkey. Cliff, Matt just gave you the beautiful lead into his place on Lake I didn't necessarily. We'll come up in a second with Matt. Jen. I'm curious the hominin at that time is not Homo sapien, right,

I mean, typically they're not. They're saying Homo sapien. Sapien comes a few one hundred thousand years ago. But you know what, I think they're pushing it, aren't they. I mean, because if this is you know, put together with intelligence, there's consciousness here. This is not somebody dragging their their hands on the door. This is somebody who's talk a little bit about what they suspect could be the hominin type. Because if it's almost sapien,

that's a big plus. That would be about two hundred thousand years earlier

than they had suspected, which is pretty significant. You know, they don't link anyone early hominid to this particular site, but if we're you know, they they reference that Neanderthal's you know, the timeline of Neanderthal activity, but they're also leaving out like Denisovans. We haven't found Denisovans in you know, South Africa, so we can't really say that, you know, they were in play, but you have you know, some of the older ones that

have been complet completely negated to ever have any of this capacity to build complexity. So you know, I'm hesitant to say who I think this might be, and especially because I know my second my second you know suggestion on what to talk about is Home on the Leading, which you know they did never really identify as a hominid, and now they're like, what, wait a minute, this guy did some pretty cool stuff. So do you want me to talk about Home on the Leading now, which is my second little bit

before you jump into that hominin? Yeah, how did they find burnt wood? Was it like exposed with someone digging in the area. What's what's the story for people that don't know, I think that's a cool story. Yeah, yeah, it is a cool story. So this is an ongoing site. This is a site that they had excavated before I looked into And so how I understand it is they were excavating at this site and this is like

the right on the border of Tanzania. And you know, Tanzania is a hotbed for early humans, so that's like, you know, one of the prime spots. So we see a lot of different types of hominids come out. That's why I'm very hesitant to say, because you've got like you've got like tons of different folks coming out of there. It's like almost an epicenter.

So the structure was excavated. There was a structure excavated up from Colombo Falls near Zambia's border with Tanzania, and they happened across this because also this particular area is like an epic drought as well, So there are a lot of different things at play. But this is a wonderful, happy coincidence that

they found it. They weren't looking for it. I mean, they were more likely to find like you know, some old eye tools or you know, some early human bones or something to that effect before they were willing to and even thought that they would find some perishable items. But Jen, why is that so important to maybe people don't understand carbon dating and why you can actually have something organic like that be more valuable than even potentially a tool.

Oh my gosh, yes, I mean, you know carbon dating problems aside still having something, and this thing looks like it's completely carbonized. I mean I was looking at it. It's like burnt down, you know, there's not a lot of true. Yeah, it's converted right absolutely, and you can see it slightly tilted on its side, but you can actually see the segmentation where they put it together, where it's actually fitting together. So what

that means is how it's in such amazing preservation. At some point there was a fire because it's completely carbonized. Something something either the pressure of all of the soil and all of because there's a massive soil on top of this which can compress and sometimes carbonize things, or there was a fire which put this in just absolute perfect preservation in micro or a non microbial environment, which happens in water like you've got Charnel ponds and stuff like that that can actually really

highly preserve perishable items. So this was such a wonderful, happy mistake. And the fact that they had an archaeologist, you know, excavating nearby and they somehow find this on you know, in that process. Right, if you were to say what this does to our understanding of human evolution, would you say it's a big step forward because now we think that conscious beings were

around a lot earlier. We don't as obviously, we can't say it's Homo sapey and safety and we don't have any bones, right, No, okay, so when when then they find something that's half a million years old that's intelligently designed. I mean, there's these ape like humans, hominins what they call them. But you know, does that give us a possibility for Homo sapiens or is it? Or is it like the dnnis nonis no Dennis Novin's

where we only have a bone here or there and that's it. That's all we have, and we're guessing that these are some form of human being. You know, I'm curious what, Yes, I'm but I'm also curious what the other guests have to say about this too. In my personal opinion, I feel like I don't want to attribute it to Homo sapiens. I want to think that there is an older hominid that was more complex than we have given them credit for. That's my personal opinion. I agreed, that's that's

the question I wanted to ask. I was. I was almost afraid to ask it of a real archaeologist, because I mean, we got we got Denisovan's, you know, from one little pinky fingerbone, and uh, all of a sudden, here's a whole new species. And I was going to ask you, do you suppose then? And you just answered the question.

I think, do you suppose then that there's a possibility of these really really ancient species that were intelligent, that built with wood, that were involved in the arts, that were involved possibly oceanic travel, uh, you know, or at least at least along the coasts and everything else, a whole species back there that we didn't know anything about. Uh, it's going to come down to cranial size, right Jen, Yeah, it's gonn it's gonna it's

gonna take bones somewhere along the line, isn't it. Well? Bones and even you know, posture. How were they walking? Were they using their thumbs the way we use our thumbs. Were they still still arboreal? I mean, yes to everything that you're both saying. I think that those are

the big questions. I am particular. I think that, you know, we're still putting together this massive puzzle of what we believed to be true of our ancestral evolution with the caveat of you know, we understand evolution very differently now, So what does that mean to these earlier people in their accomplishments. I'm just not willing to always write it off as homo sapien because I don't

think we were always the smartest kids on the block. Perhaps we were the most adaptable when bad, catastrophic things happen, and that's what pushed us to where we are now. I like that. I love the idea of our boreal arboreal species that built this thing because they didn't want to get their feet wet when they came down on the ground. That's that's pretty fantastic. Can you think of at all? Right, Jen, We're gonna have to follow up on this one because it has a lot of possibilities, and I wonder

if they keep digging what they're gonna find. Maybe some tools would be really cool. Like, how old is the human story? Truly? Where do we get that defining moment where we even have characteristics that are semi holmost sapey

and sapient even in its most primitive format. Where does that begin? And I think that, like Jen talking about this discovery in Africa, that helps us at least understand that timeline in a much more in a much clearer way, so we can start placing things and say, well, this is the furthest we can go right, well, now let's fill everything in between, and that's I guess that's the you gotta start somewhere, right, Yeah,

Yeah, that's a good on Jen. All right, let's move up the earth and talk with Matt about Lake van in Turkey and this wonderful discovery that you've made. I was looking at the video that you post on your website. It's kind of a mind blower. Man. Go ahead, thanks, Jen. Are you familiar with Lake Vaughan in eastern Turkey near the Armenium border at all? You are? Are you familiar with the Huarchian civilization at all? I am? And there's a there's a beautiful settlement slash temple at the

bottom of Lake Vaughan. I was reading about when I heard we were going to be on this together. Well, we can go into that now. I would like, Cliff, if we could take this unique opportunity having Jen on this to be able to have her comments, and I'm hoping Jen that you can be very objective with me and scientific and not based on maybe predetermined conclusions, because we have some great photos that we can we can show as

we discussed this. I emailed you, Cliff just now some while we're in this, and maybe you could pull those up while I'm talking, because there's a couple in particular that I want gen to see because I am very cure used to see her reactions to them as I talk about this having a credible

archaeologists on site. So this is a long story, and I don't know necessarily how long I have, so I want to try to condense it into something that's easy to understand, that hits the kind of key aspects of this and a general appreciate it, because even though I'm not an accredited archaeologist,

I like to play one, at least in real life. This all started with my obsession over the Sumerians, Acadians and Babylonians and even I guess the Assyrians, that entire region of Mesopotamia was my obsession specifically though with the earlier Sumerian narratives of the original cities that are discussed, and how there's a lot of myths and legends related to whether or not some of those ages are true, how far back some of them go, and if some of those stories

are truly truly far older than we're told and fits into a much older, much larger time frame and timeline than than we've been taught in school. Now, no fault to Jen is she is part of an organization that does amazing work, but that organization of archaeology needs to be more willing to bend to evidence in terms of being open minded rather than being skeptical, because we're in

an age now of new discoveries and new information. And I am not putting gen down in any way because she's not part of any of these things, and neither neither of the other other archaeologists as well that are part of the projects. But there is a consensus here with these areas of eastern Turkey near Armenia that I believe is incorrect and that we are potentially with everything we're about to discuss could be a major factor with changing our timeline and understanding of history

in the future. And that began with my obsession of the Sumerians. As I said now in the Ancient Tablets, some of the first tablets ever written that came out of summer from the Asher Bount Paul Library. We have of the Sumerian king list, we have the euroclist of kings and stages. We have even the Broocious king lists from Babylon and so on, and there's others as well, Legend of Atana, and we get into things like Aerdu Genesis

and others. But they all discuss how there's this last city created that was part of this event that came through that destroyed the old world and then everything was gone and then another rebuilding had to occur. But archaeologists, mainstream archologists, were under that impression that it was a localized event that was based on flooding of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers in the springtime and not based on an

actual catastrophic event. However, that is greatly changing as we're seeing new evidence emerge, and that began in when Sharupak the Last City talked about in the

tablets was considered a myth. Was found in nineteen thirty one when the University of Philadelphia was out and they were doing these amazing excavations of what the city today is called Farah in Iraq, and when they were excavating down below, they had to go down through these different layers to try to understand the history of that area, and what they found was much more complex than they ever imagined. They found three distinctive layers of civilizations that have been in that region,

but over an enormous time period. But it doesn't make any sense conventionally because as they're digging down from the top layer to the very bottom consensus stratum number three, which is at thirty five to thirty seven feet, they found that the top the top seventeen feet, they found evidence of two civilizations that had been in that area, two civilizations, and that those civilizations they found no evidence of the name Shirupak. But they found primitive pottery, primitive tools,

primitive work, wasn't anything kind of it wasn't anything really sophisticated, and they almost gave up because they didn't find the excav they didn't find shar but they had a very strong evidence based understanding that it was there, and so it was amazing reading these archaeologists from the papers of it, because after they went down below seventeen they went down below that layer of the two civilizations, they had a void of just mud and sediment with no signs of human settlement

for approximately twenty to twenty five feet and when they hit that right below that layer, they're going to give up. And then they hit this layer at thirty to thirty three feet down, they hit another layer that was completely different than anything above it. It was highly advanced, highly sophisticated. Culturally. They found pottery that was very sophisticated. They found ancient they found tablets with caneiform writing, and that's where they found the name Shirupak. On those tablets

they found Shirupak. They found the original Sumerian city of Sharrupak. That was part of an age that if you read something like the Epic of Gilgamesh, you will find in that that he even tells. He tells Gilgamesh in that story that Shrewpak is far more ancient than you could ever imagine. It's not part of the same time period that we're from, and so it's interesting reading

the archaeologists about these discoveries and how they were speculating. They like, isn't that interesting that there's this giant layer of mud and debris that teams that tends to coincide with this biblical flood narrative, and then here we find this more advanced civilization in the bottom instead of the top. Now, Jen, that doesn't make a lot of sense conventionally, does it me? No, not at all. It's really interesting you say that because in my experience, I

work mostly in Jordan's so I have experience in that general vicinity. Yeah, I am not as familiar with Shah Rupek as I am, like say, with or or you know, maybe Nineveh or some of the other cities that have been discussed. But I do think that you know, those early excavators, those early archaeologists and antiquarians had they weren't as maybe in the or how do I say this, in the way, they weren't as rigid, and they weren't as you know, enamored with the Ivory Tower as it exists today.

And I'm probably gonna be slaps for even saying, but I'm saying it. Yeah, But what I will say is we have found a lot of that. You know we have, Well, we've reached the Neolithic layer, so let's stop excavating there. I would be dishonest if I didn't say that that happened, because it does. When you're excavating, When you find a lens of twenty five feet that you no longer find cultural debrison, you have a tendency to stop excavating. The Actually, a lot of people left the

party, and only some of them stayed behind Jen. That's not the point. That's the critical point here, though, I need you to comment on

is conventionally in school. If you were to go in school and learn about our history, the six thousand year narrative of the Sumerians emerging as a civilization, through the Egyptians and right through the whole history, right, how does it make sense though, in that narrative of being less developed and becoming more developed over time, how does it make sense to have a thirty five foot layer and have primitive settlements at the top and then have advanced settlement at the

very bottom. It's backwards, isn't it. Yeah. I've said this to Cliff numerous times. You won't find any disagreement from me. I mean, I think on the different segments that we've done over the years, I have consistently said Sumerians don't just show up and be a fully cooked culture. That just doesn't happen. And they don't just show up and you know, have cuniform writing and you know, a system of counting the days, a calendar like everything. You know they did, I mean, they were viewing the

stars, they were doing it all. They had an intense system of not of reciprocity, but of all truism in the sense where everyone ate and you know, everyone farmed, and it was just complex culture, complex laws, complex writing. They even had the first currency, the shekel, which was based on the amount of a bushel of wheat. They had all their systems in place that seemed to come out of nowhere. So Shrupak they speculated saying, well, this kind of lines up with the biblical narrative of a great

flood and disaster. But then they went on to say that's purely speculation, and they like backtracked on their statement. But the point is that jen that's lining up with a narrative that doesn't make sense, that's lining up in the narrative that's saying that, look, this area of shru Pack, this area of Mesopotamia in Iraq has had multiple epics of civilization that come and gone there,

and they're not all at the same level. You know, others, these levels we're seeing above them that have primitive pottery and primitive writing, they probably found and knew about the remnants of those ancient civilizations and they just try to imitate it or do what they could. But we need to stop lumping all these groups together and imagine that these timeframes of what's been there and what's occurred is enormous. We got to stop putting in the lens of our understanding

of just a few hundred years. We have to go thousands to potentially ten twenty thousand, and that's what we'll get into it a second. Go ahead, Yeah, Jim, I was going to say, I'm either blessed or

cursed. I'm not sure which one sometimes whether having a reverend in front of my name, and when you have a when you have a reverend in front of your name and you go on a podcast, especially a Cliff Dunning podcast, and you talk about ancient civilizations, I was just inundated with comments about where is the Garden of Eden, the innumil Leish, the Babylonian Flood,

Epic Gilgamesh. And when I moved out here, when I retired from ministering, moved I hear of the woods about what twelve years ago, I guess now, go Beckley Teppe was brand new. I mean people were just starting I mean it just it had been discovered earlier, but it was just starting to filter out to the public consciousness. And I'm just amazed. In the last decade everybody was saying, well, for instance, go Beckley Teppe can't be can't be that old, because I mean, it can't spring that that

full blown onto the scene. It has to be stuff. And then along came Kara on Teppy and people start looking about and that whole complex now, that whole thing, you know, pushing our civilization way back and way back and way back. And I can't help but think forty miles downstream from me, I live on the Savannah River, and forty miles downstream for me is

the topper site. And I could never I could never forget when when when they dug down, for instance, to the clothes level, and the temptation was to stop, don't go any further, because Heaven forbid, you might waste money by right by digging in nothing, but Heaven forbid, because even worse, you might find something and then you lose your funding, and then you lose your tenure, and then you lose And and the man who was, you know, leading up the dig at that time, he's retired now,

but he told me, he told me he had to warn his students, man, don't go any deeper, because if you find anything, you could be in serious trouble, you know, if you start true about you know, and and and that's exactly what's I think going on there now.

When when you start to look at the pushing back all of these things, what Jen was talking about, and pushing back to half a million years from two hundred thousand and now, pushing back the whole idea of the flood epics and the genesis flood story, the myth and all that kind of thing, you push it back farther and farther. And it's amazing to me how far we've come in the last ten years, and how many bona fide archaeologists like Jen and many of her colleagues I'm sure, are now open and ready to

go. Probably one of the reasons is because we've knocked down one big wall. And then it used to be that these kinds of stories could never get out. You had to go through a peer review to be published, and

you had to go through you know, your colleagues and everything else. And now with people like Cliff putting this right out there for all to see without having to go through all of the things, the common layman is now seeing these stories and they may not understand, and they may be tending to exaggerate, but they're getting out there and people are starting to look at it and saying, Wow, there's something really serious and it's all happened. Maybe I'm

showing my age now, but it's all happening so fast. It seems like in the last ten or twelve years, this thing is just exploded. I'm tolerated, right, it's an exciting I mean, you're questioning the history of our planet, Gym. I'll never forget. And this was your fault too, because when I wrote my book Lost Civilizations, this is probably what. Oh, I don't know, Cliff, eight ten years ago, so I don't know something like that. And you were one of the first people to

have me on and talk about the lost civilizations. And boy did I get hammered when I was starting to talk. I remember that, I actually saw that. I remember that show where you know, where did where did those lost civilizations come from? And and of course, you know there's a couple of camps. One camp said, you know, there's always the ancient aliens thing, and then there's the other one that says, what about those lost

civilizations that might have existed during the Ice Age? That couldn't have happened. We couldn't. We couldn't be talking about sophisticated civilizations that are two hundred thousand years old and now Jen saying they're half a million years old. Wow, it's all happened so fast, wonderful. We're going to take a short commercial break and allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we'll return quickly with my panelists today discussing twenty twenty three, the year in Review. We'll be right

back. Today's panel is a group of influencers who have found and highlight a number of discoveries that are appropriate for Earth ancients. We continue our discussion. Hey, Matt, I one thing I think you're gonna give a I don't get to go past the RUPAC yet. I want to say, we're still know go Beckley Teppe is twelve thousand BC. That's a long eleven six yeah, yeah, eleven six right? What what what numbers are you gonna throw at us right now? Because I'm curious. Well, it's that's the whole

point is that is that go Beeckley Teppe gives us a benchmark. Okay, right, And if Gobeckley Teppe has the same T shaped pillars that become a primary artifact from a relic of the civilization about to talk about, you can say, well, it's older, it's an origin point. And Jen is

going to be fascinated by this. And Jen and I might have to actually actually have a phone call later to see if she wants to be part of something pretty significant, because I find Jen's ability to be objective about this with her credentials very interesting for this project. So I'd love to know your opinion Jen as we go further and talk about this, so that everything I just said about your RUPAK was simply just establishing the framework that there was an older

Sumerian civilization that was ancient, ancient, ancient. That's not the same as the primitive ones on top. And in that ancient ancient Sumerian civilization you find out about the last priest and king in all these tablets that talks about as Is naming untapischtim or Zius Soudra. Now Zaias Sudra was his Sumerian name, untapitched him was his Acadian or Assyrian name. Now that figure is critically important

to history. I could not believe how deep this rabbit hole went as I went down this because my obsession over studying what happened to that story and that king and priest and that whole narrative is what led me to Lake Vaughan. And I never imagined that this would happen. But remember in the tablets in the Autra Hasis, in the epic of Gilgamesh, you find out that there

was an event created to destroy humanity. And we're gonna call untapischtam Razaiaes Sudra Noah, just so it's easy for everybody in the audience to understand, because he became the biblical figure of Noah. But it's much more ancient and instead of that Russell Crowe depictionary, he's got like a like a lion skinned, brown coat, and he's like primitive, no Untapishtim was a high priest and a king. He was sort of like Ashrabona Paul. Actually he was very

similar. So he was a very high profile, very intelligent, ancient king priest who haspos supposedly had a blood line that was connected back to an ancient place and he was warned about a catastrophe. Okay, that's what the stories describe about. But the stories end and we never find out what happened because so many of these tablets fracture off. They land in the mount area of Mount Ararat in this craft to survive this disaster, and I got to move

forward because there's a lot of stif to talk about. But that Christian version, some might laugh at that in the archaeological world because their narratives are wrong, and it's not of course, not two of every animal. But there's a core to that that goes back to the Sumerian and the Syrian and Akkadian versions. That is a different story though it's about protecting a bloodline. It's

about protecting something. They call it the seed of life. They call it preserving the seed of life, and they describes how they survive and they land in the Mount Ararat region and then poof, it becomes a mystery and you're like, what happened? Where'd they go? Right? And the Christian narratives talks about how they went off to different parts of the world and created all these things, But is there any archaeological proof that any of that's true?

You know, there wasn't until now, and that evidence has changed my entire life to the point now where I started my own company and we're doing it. We're about to leave for filming a massive film that it's going to be exceeding half a million dollars that perhaps Jen might want to be a part of, to go to Lake Vaughn and Turkey, to go to Ankora, and then to link it with Bolivia and Peru about an origin point of a lost

civilization. And now let me get back to what that is. In twenty seventeen, they discovered underwater ruins Undrea like Vaughan of megalithic temple walls, high precision, under more than one hundred feet of water underwater there, and they were they were in press conferences and they were talking about They're like, that's kind of difficult to explain considering how far down that is in the lake, and if you were to look at geologic records on how low the lake would

have had to be to create that civilization, it gets into some dangerous territory. The number they came up with when the lowest maximum point for glaciation for that lake in terms of its water level being the lowest was fifteen thousand years ago fifteen, pushing it right then back earlier than Quebecy Tepe, falling in to that pre younger, driest narrative. But I think it's not even that old. I think it's older now. And this is where the evidence I'm

gonna we're gonna go with this is that that discovery got my attention. But it was only because I had seen the excavations that were being done in another site in the north part of Lake vaugh called Sernaki Teppe, and I saw the same polygonal block design that you see in South America there that seems to come out of nowhere. When you jen knows that if you have a culturally

advanced civilizations that builds something. If you see evidence them around in a wide area they lived there, it's not like you have this one spot and there's

nothing ever anywhere around it that exists. You have to have some kind of evidence for a civilization that could have reached that kind of advanced stone masonry capabilities to build that, and that's what you have here, is that the emergence of a mysterious lost civilization, I believe, and it started with this underwater ruins off of Adel Savez under Lake Vaughan, and then it blossomed from Zernaki Teppe to Kef Klesei Kef Temple, to Kavistepi to the very core of it

all Ionis. I don't know if Jen knows about Ionis, but Ionis Temple is in my opinion, I've looked at every megalithic temple, every high precision thing I can have seen in Egypt, Peru, Bolivia, Ballbeck Levin, through parts of Greece, through parts of Petro, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, could go on India. Ionis is some of the most beautiful, incredible stonemasonry

sophisticated work in the world. But not only that, but I believe it contains the very first cross, the very first images of the Chalice, the first the first images of the Tree of Life, and the knowledge of the tryptic doorways that ancient civilizations around the world were lowering on how to reach higher

states of consciousness and divinity. I believe Lake Vaughan, in the civilization I'm calling the error at civilization, may be the missing link of when something happened that led to all these civilizations and is building all these incredible things and then disappearing from catastrophes and then other cultures not understanding what they did and trying to imitate it, and then building right on top of them, And then we're

confusing those younger civilizations with being the ones who built the older ones. Yeah, and that's where these discoveries at Lake Vaughan and Cliff. Can you pull up any of those images I sent you so that I don't you didn't I don't find them. I'm looking at attached Okay, can here? Can I pull them up? Then? Yeah? Go ahead, Hold on a second, let me get let me get yeah, go ahead, Jen, I want to get you chime in, please, so you bring up some interesting

points. And just even if you think of Lake Vaughan is the largest lake in Turkey, it's also an end eric lake, which means it's a closed basin lake, which also means that it is a saltwater lake. It it you know, it condensates are why why block us the word? It loses a salt so it's not as salty, but it's still a salty lake. So you have Lake Titi Kaka, which is very similar when you think a lake in the middle of nowhere over a thousand feet deep too, each of

them exactly exactly. So there are a lot of really interesting correlations that you bring up. As I hear you talk about this, so it gets better again, it gets better. Yeah, Well, I'm thinking about the Ecuadorian images that come out that also are a replication. You know, they've got the handbag and the bracelet. Yeah, father Crespy, Father Crespy's artifacts yep.

Okay. So and this is what I didn't really get to sort of compile this so we can understand it is that the archaeologists that are making these excavations believe that this is part of the Urartian civilization that was around a rough around four thousand years ago or so in this region. But the stonemason you work, and the ruins and the and the archaeological sites that you're gonna see

they don't match it all. They don't match in even the slightest degree, because your teens were building with brick and mortar, and they were actually a semi war kind of a conquering civilization, and a lot of their iconography was based on more of like a conquering and so archaeologists then took that mindset and try to impose it onto these And it's almost embarrassing, Jen, to show what is clearly a seed from the tree of life and then they think it's

a lance or spear from war is very It's sad and unfortunate, but it gives an opportunity for people like me and others that are passionate to want to be part of to to change history. Can Cliff, can I share an image here? You should be able to share? Okay, great, Yeah, let me, Jen, I want to pull this up and show you because I think that here I just I just emailed it over to the group.

I think that it will really help with like if you get an if you're going a chance to get your eyes on it, then it almost like gives the ability for people to get that perspective. Right. Let's see, so that Matt while you're while you're doing this, ahead, while you're doing this. I have to I just have to say that despite all of the the archaeology and everything else, it's been a delight to hear about this, not just because of the history, but to hear those wonderful Sumerian and Babylonian

names roll so off your tongue. They're beautiful. I couldn't pronounce them that. Well. Well, I'm still learning. I'm sure. I'm sure Jen's holding her tongue because I've made a few mistakes along the way. I'm getting better, but I was horrible if those exotic names, It's like, it's like music, Matt, that just beautiful. I mean, how many how many syllables do we I want to get I want to get my guitar out and start and start playing music and background. Let let you guys just say

these names. That's beautiful. I will say this though. The images that Matt showed of these figures is nothing amazing. Number one, number two, I can see whether it would be a confusion because they almost look Middle Aged Medieval. Well, that's because the symbol became a core symbol in mediately medieval times, and that's what we'll get into. Give me one more second, guys, I'm just gonna pull can I can I read something? Well?

Will Matt's looking that up. This is going to seem as though it's not related, but I assure you it is. I I don't want to turn people off by saying the word Atlantis. You're not turning that off. I'm I'm not gonna you know, I mean, people can decide. Whether people

can decide whether Atlantis is an historical reality or a myth. That's not important, but at this point, I mean, but what really gets me is when when Matt was talking about these cultures, and when Jen was talking about these cultures that were sophisticated and uh, looking beyond the material life, looking

for something deeper, something bigger. I can't help but think of Plato's Timaeus when he was talking about the Atlantis myth and looking at the not the historicity of it, but looking at the morality or the consciousness that was going on, and he said, you know, of that flood that Matt was talking

about. It could be that he was referring to this particular flood, but for many generations, Plato said, they the people there, the Atlanteans, obeyed the laws and loved the divine to which they were akin, and they reckoned that I'm sounding like a minister here. Qualities of character were far more important than their present prosperity. So they bore the burden of their wealth and possessions lightly and did not let their high standard of living intoxicate them or make

them lose their self control. But when the divine element in them became weakened and their human traits became predominant, they ceased to be able to carry their prosperity with moderation. And I can't help but think of Matthew's I love that. Thank you for this, the spearhead that is replacing the beautiful pottery. It seems to be exactly what Plato was talking about, you know, exactly well, And I'm if I'm sorry the image I had the images did not

send. They blocked them, so I'm just opening them right, okay, So so don't worry. We can. We can put them up on our Facebook page. We'll have people look at them. I'm looking at them too, just so you know, matt I see them right now, so I'm I'm looking at what you're looking at. So we need to kind of conclude Matt, So okay, yeah, let me let me move forward here, Okay, Yeah, and I just I just wanted Gin to, yeah,

just to comment on what we're talking about. So basically what we're what we're doing is we're looking at these these discoveries around these different sites, uh for different sites around Lake Vaughan that contain incredible imagery from Summer with the original like the same winged gods like we see in Summer. And I was gonna be able to I guess I can't show that with Jen right now, but we'll get Jen's comments on that. But basically, let me pull this up.

So the iconography that comes from these sites is bizarre. It's very Sumerian. It's the same types of imagery we see come out of that region from the Ashrabona, Paul Livery and others that was gathered in that in that time period. And it shows the same wing depictions of ascension and all these things. But what's fascinating is that and you brought up that that the iconography from Ionest looks medieval almost. The cross that's at Ionis, I believe was the first

iteration of the cross ever on Earth, and it was. It was That's why it became such an important symbol. And the reason I say that is because that same cross and ionness is then there becomes the Red Knights Templar cross, and then the same cross that's shown in the Pope as well as the British royals. It becomes almost like the most sacred of all the crosses until Christianity changes it into a different version later. But the core of these of

these symbols not only that, but we see the tryptic doorways. We see this understanding of the balance of tree and life and the harmony that we have and the different sides and elements of us that became the Holy Trinity in trinity and religion later. But Jenna, are you able to see any of the images that you're that you have there? Okay? Do you notice that? Do you have any is there? Do you have any questions on like do

you see the difference between the civilizations? Is it obvious to you or does it look to you like I have never seen the images of this temple before. I'm just going to be totally transparent there, So I've never seen this before. I mean automatically, when I look at this I I you know, I can see the remnants of like the Flower of Life and the bottom panel where you have the the that figure, the winged figure, you know, holding the flower or tree of life, the pine coney looking object.

Yes, but also looking at the other images along that panel. It's really interesting because you have a catlike figure on there as a griffin. It's actually a griffin, and it's it's becomes the core of the Greek civilization later, which that's exactly him just talks about Plato and how in Plato's discussions they discuss how there's a pre land Athenian civilization in Greece that was there at the time

of Plato. We can I can I share a story that's going to tie together what Matt said about the cross and what Jen said about these ancient civilizations that were considering the heavens the stars. Briefly, I'll make it, I'll make it real quick. But this time of year, right at dusk, I always go out my front door every night, out and here in the woods, and I see the Northern Cross that's hanging up right in the north, just on the horizon. And I began to think about this for the

longest time. It's part of the course the constellations signess this one. But there's the Northern Cross hanging up right up over our heads. Well, when I first came out here twelve years ago, fifteen years ago, I found a number of stone piles that were built out in the woods around our place, and they're all up on the top of a little ridge. If it weren't for the woods, if the trees weren't there, if this was grassland like it used to be, you'd be able to see all of these different

places. And I got a friend of mine who has all the high tech gizmo surveying equipment. He's a surveyor. He came out here and we went to each of these places, and he got a GPS reading on each of them. When we went back to office and he put them out, he put them down, and when he put them on a piece of paper, they look so familiar where the GPS coordinates were over our map. So we shrunk down the size a little bit so it would correspond to a sky chart

that shows the Northern Cross, and they corresponded exactly. You could put these stone piles around the woods on my place. You could put it down exactly over a northern cross sky chart, and they would match exactly. Well. When I saw that, I said, something's up here because I could just I could just see this people that at this time of year is when the cross was there, So it would be the time of the winter solstice,

and they were all up on top of these ridge marks. So if everybody were to build a fire on a certain night of the year, the shortest and longest night of the year, they would in effect bring Heaven down to Earth, and as above, so below. So when I was so fascinated, but I wrote to oh, what's his name, Andrew Collins, and I told him about this because he's such a expert on signas and signess cults.

And he wrote back to me within twenty minutes, I guess, and he said, is there a bird cult in your area that might signify this? That? I mean, now we're talking really ancient well, North Carolina, right South Carolina, North Carolina, but right across the river from me, not eighty miles away, there is the two great Stone effigies that have

been dated to four or five thousand years ago. One is the Stone Cross and the Stone Eagle, and the other is the stone Hawk, and right on my property there is a pile of stones that is now spread out all over the place. And I've talked to all kinds of people about where these things may have come from. But if you walk around the edge of it, you can see that it marks exactly the idea of it's a bird cult, basically make a long strive. I've written about it in some books.

I'm opening to it now because i know we're a little strapped on time, but to make that idea of the cross was obviously brought down to earth here in South Carolina, and now Matt's talking about it in Lake van and Jen was talking about looking at the stars and seeing all these different things. It just is amazing to me how long ago there were people on the Earth who were trying to bring these things down, bring the heavens down to earth as

above so below. Yeah, it's just everywhere. That synergy it seems to be critically important. And Jen mentioned there's so many comparisons to Lake tid Kaka with Lake Vaughan that it's almost uncanny. They seem to have this intense interest interest in these giant, navel like lakes that are incredibly deep, surrounded by volcanoes, and both of those locations had that. Now, Gen, I emailed you the images from those locations just now, and I just want to

summarize for because I know we got to move on to Gym. But these these ruins from around Lake Vaughan, from this civilization that I'm discussing, they're out of time and out of place. And I didn't mention this yet.

I just kind of briefly mention is that there are cuneiform writings at Cavis that specifically have the names King Hike and the bloodline descendants of Noah in the stone from being Japeth from his son of Noah, showing that the actual story was true and that those legends are actually based on an original story of the last Sumerian king. I mean, that's like a movie, right, the last

Samarian king up full time. I like that who had three sons who they survived a catastrophe and they were given knowledge on how to rebuild the new world. And I believe that that that civilization there, with the First Cross and the ascension teachings that are incorporated with it, then spread around the world with

the knowledge of megalithic building. Because the Sumerians built with, so they didn't have anything to do with that, and so we see something that comes out of nowhere with these giant basalt stones that are built as well as andesite. Jen might know, andesite is a seven on the most hardness scale, with

basal being a six to six and a half. That ionis temple with the first cross is built out of andesite, with the primitive brick and mortar almost like eroded almost completely on top from the Urartians that had nothing to do with it, but clearly they found that civilization and they built and unored it in

their temple. But the point is that those teachings I believe, and the teachings of megalithic building and reaching these incredible states and the teachings of consciousness through all these ascension teachings then traveled around to South America with Bolivia with Tiawanaku and Puma Punku. Because there you see the same cross, the same triptic doorway. There you see the same the chikana symbol which became the ziggarot step pyramid,

but combined with the as above so below versions it's wild. Jen. Check out that email. You can nerd out on those images when you get a chance. But it's just amazing. The implications here could be enormous.

And so just to end out before we move on, Cliff, it's just to say that this has got the attention of people already around the world, and I'm already I'm leading a very significant film project with some big directors and producers in Hollywood, along with experts such as Billy Carson, biblical expert Paul Wallace, and megalithic expert Brian Forster. To go to Lake Farm with these locations, to go to Ankora where there's an artifact at a basement there that

doesn't nobody wants to know about. There's kidd in there, and then all across the world to Tiwanaku and Puma Punku to show the same symbols, same stone, same comparison, to show there was a story, an origin point of knowledge that passed around the world and became the core of a miss that we're trying to figure out. And then mystery seems to lead back to Lake

Vaughan in this lost era as civilization. Yeah, I have so many questions for you on this, Matt, and guess what You're back on the program in two weeks, I know, and it's a full program to discuss this, so you can spill it at that time, okay. And now I'll generate a significant number of questions because I have only watched part of the two hour video you made. And so let's sen and Matt. I want to know where you were twenty years ago when I was doing biblical mythology seminars.

Jim, it sounds like we could use you, you and Jen like we might have to get like an increase the team here, seriously, but no, it's amazing. It seems like archaeology and science and spirituality and religion are all crashing together in one place here, and the implications could be enormous.

I mean, think about it. If it's the same cross that originated from there that became the core of secret societies and groups like the Knights, Templar, and the highest orders of our religion in the end, the bird cults, of bird cults of sound of the United States. It's incredible. So yeah, let's let's see. If anyone wants to be a part of that journey, please go to the stage of Time dot com if you're interested. Okay, fantastic. Thanks Matt, that is fantastic, and we're gonna hear

more from you. And like I said in a couple of weeks on that, on that amazing find, we're gonna move over to the gym. And uh, this article that you sent me kind of a new cosmology in a way focused on the James Webb Telescope, but give us the background on well one of my favorite people with who is Fred Hoyle? And for four days ago marks the On the twenty fifth of December marks the second anniversary of the James Web Telescope being launched. And so it's just been two years and I

am absolutely amazed at what has happened. I expected to see a lot of cosmology. I mean, Jen, you know, Matt took us back fifteen thousand years. Jen took us back a half a million years. I'm going to take us back fifteen billion or fourteen billion years or thirteen point eight billionaires. When the James Webb Telescope was launched, I expected to find all kinds

of fascinating science. There's no doubt about that. What has amazed me is that has overlapped into my area of interest, which has been my area of interest for fifty years now. And that's the whole idea of consciousness and consciousness in the brain. Is the mind the same as the brain? What is

consciousness? And of course, when I began to start, you know, studying the results that comes out of the whole field of quantum mechanics, it's only one hundred years old right now, which just seems to scream at all kinds of things that the Hindu Rishis were saying six thousand years ago. When you get into it, I expected to find the science. What I didn't expect was that it would totally turn cosmology up on its head and push everything way back. I remember being part of oh long time ago now, I

was part of a podcast. I was the token minister to a bunch of scientists who were there, and I was the one who was you know, supposed to you know, ground us all in religion and all that. I saw that, Jim, I remember that. I remember asking a question, you know, what came before the Big Bang? And I, you know, I had a bunch of very you know, brilliant scientists. They were kind of like patronizing me, patting me on the head, saying, oh,

you're just a lame when you don't know any better. There was no before the Big Bang. There couldn't have been, because time came at the Big Bang. Time and spaceball came at the Big Bang. There was nothing before. It was a dumb question. Basically. They were much more polite than that. But now all of a sudden, I'm find scientists, not only the the the popular ones that you see on you know, the talking heads and stuff that you see, but I'm amazing to hear them talking now,

and what they're saying sounds much more like metaphysics than physics. Now we're talking about infinity, we're talking about eternity. I mean, for a theologian, those are buzzwords practically, you know, we're talking about black holes and holographic universes. We're talking about the multiverse. And now all of a sudden,

filtering down into the popular the popular interest. In only the last couple of years, people are now talking about Fred Hoyle's whole idea of the anthropic uh principles of you know, Fred Hoyle was very concerned about the idea of an eternal I mean, the Big Bang and everything else, and his need to observe the universe, and he came out and said, the universe cannot exist without a consciousness that is there to observe it, consciousness of some kind,

not necessarily human consciousness, of course. And yeah, and now we're talking. You know, you meet people on the street who were talking about the finely tuned universe. You know, a little more of this, a little more of that, we couldn't even possibly exist. How did it happen? And so now we moved from animism probably the world's oldest organized religion, although with jen putting us back that long, probably a lot of religion before

animism came along. But animism followed by pantheism, followed by panentheism, followed by pan psychism, and now biocentrism, all of these different ways looking at the universe. And it's not amazing to me that the upper echelons of these of science and cosmologists are talking about these things. What gets me is how it's filtering down to the people on the street, and people are really interested

in this old day the whole thing. Now, So when the James Webb telescope looks out and sees black holes that possibly were formed before the universe, in effect, they're answering that question that I asked what came before the Big Bang? And I was told, don't even think of those terms. Well, now it's common place to think about in those terms. People are starting to really get it. I think it's going to expand our idea totally.

And the reason I think that's so important is because I really do believe that humankind right now is at a crossroads. We're dealing with some pretty dangerous toys when we're talking about climate change, when we're talking about nuclear energy, when we're talking about all these different playthings that we've got, and I'm not sure our morality has kept up with it. I'm not sure our spirituality has kept

up with it. We're at a dangerous time and we're starting to look at each other now and wonder how many ways can we destroy the world, either politically or economically, or physically or whatever. If we can get our mind off our own little problems that we have down here looking at each other and blaming each other, if we can get our mind off that, project them into the universe and begin to contemplate things like eternity and infinite in infinity,

and to think of something that's other, something that's bigger than us. That could possibly be the thing that would make us unite as a human species rather than divide us. And that's really what I'm hoping for. And I can't help but think that the scientific community and the religious community, I like to say the spiritual community, because religion is different than spirituality. But the scientific

community and the spiritual community have been going parallel to each other. And they don't want to slash water over into the other's boat, you know, But they've been going parallel to each other down two lanes of a highway. Boy, am I changing my metaphors now? Two lanes of a highway, And I'm wondering if those lanes are now starting to merge for the first time.

The science is giving us a language to try to describe something in a language that we can understand that ancient humans way back half a million years ago and more they somehow intuitively understood what we are now scientifically beginning to talk about. And that's why I was just so fascinated about the James Webb telescope. Sounds kind of high falutin, but that's that's really Jim. If time isn't linear, right, and you're looking back then, then how are you how could

you possibly describe the beginnings of something exactly exactly? I don't think you can. I don't. I think, Uh, basically, people are becoming more comfortable now with the idea of an illusion the material world that we look at, that we experience through our through our senses, our senses comprise that I like to call it a fivefold fence that are very I mean, it evolved

within us for a very good purpose. Uh. It protects us from having too much information come in all at once, but it also protects us from being able to see out. And I think right now we're beginning to peek over the fence of our, of our, of our, of our you know, the basic tools that we use to interpret the world. We're looking at the sensus. Yes, it's so interesting you say that, Jim, because I my son is an autistic person and his perception of just existence in

general is so different, you know. And I think that there is this human experience that we have, but we're all having a different experience and that goes to that you know, consciousness that we share or not share, for that matter. And I agree with you, it's starting to collectively you know, the lanes are merging, as you said, And who is to say that your son may have a more real interpretation than we do. We just there are more of us, So we just assume or at least we're exactly

So we just assume that ours is the way of looking at it. Who is to say that your son isn't really saying passed into the real reality I like to say, I like to say it's all real, but what we call real is just part of the capital our reality. I think we're going to take a break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return with my handle us today discussing twenty twenty three, the year in review.

We're looking back this week on some of the more important discoveries of twenty twenty three, how they affect us, and what we can look forward to in the near future. Jim talk a little bit about Hoyle's description of a reality that that we're creating in a reality that could be created for us.

I thought that was interesting in that article. Oh I I may be in trouble because I can't remember what I wrote in the art about You know, we talk about how we create our own reality and it's still a constant.

Fred Fred Hoyle, he was. He was able to do something that even Albert Einstein wasn't able to do. When Einstein first came across quantum reality, he didn't believe in it, you know, he didn't believe in this whole idea of uh and of consciousness, human consciousness or any kind of consciousness actually creating the right reality in which it lives. And you know, his famous comment, Einstein's famous comment was you mean if if you know, the moon

disappears if I'm not looking at it, you know. And but you know, fred Hoyle saw beyond that, and he was the one that first began to see that it just could be that we are much more involved in the creation of our reality than we think we are. And we always looked tend to look at reality as being a stage, an empty stage. It would be there whether we were here or not. But now Fred Hoyle came along

and said, maybe not, Maybe we are creating the stage. You know, the old thing about it, if a tree falls in the forest, is there any sound? Well, now the question is if a tree falls into the forest and nobody's there to see it, maybe there was no tree. You know that kind of thing. He didn't see reality as a stage upon which we enter. He didn't believe in the concept of what is called emergence. He didn't believe that consciousness emerged into reality. He believed that consciousness

came first. In other words, consciousness could very well be the ground of our being, the source from which we all come. And if that's the case, it opens up all kinds of questions. You know, why are we here on earth. Maybe we're here to experience. Maybe we're here to give consciousness for the first time eyes physical eyes, and physical ears and senses and everything notts to experience. I find that very comforting in a very practical

way. When life is very difficult, and I'm having a hard time making ends meet or looking around and seeing what's going out there, and life is tough, I find it very comforting to think that maybe that's one of the reasons I came here to experience that very thing, and I am giving consciousness and experience in a material reality that it could not have without me and without the other billions of people who are here on the earth. To me,

it just opens up the whole thing. And as a systematic theologian, my whole life. It opens up my whole concept of what God could mean, the idea of consciousness, the idea of greater reality, the ground of our being, the source, mystical source that we can probably never really understand.

But I got a snaking suspicion that the old timers, the real ancients that Jen was talking about and that Matt was talking about, I've got a sneaking suspicion that they intuited this and created their own spiritual framework because probably living in a different kind of world than we are, it wasn't as noisy, it wasn't as chaotic, it wasn't as confusion. They probably had more time to

contemplate and to meditate on these things. It was something that I never knew was that important until I retired and basically came out here to live in the woods for one year twelve years ago, and it just entered into a twelve year meditation and it's just getting bigger all the time. And that's I think what it takes. And I think probably the old timers, maybe they were

better at it than we were. On us left brain, I think you're you built a property over a lay line like that, I think I think your property is over a lay like is in the last it is five years you've been prolific in your writing. Well, I came out here. I thought I came out here just to retire, and that was twelve years ago and twenty two books later. I've got another book coming out this spring on near death experiences, and then one after that on lost Buried Treasure. So

it's just been it's just been wonderful. It's been a lot of fun. But it takes sometimes breaking away, and I'm just thankful I've had the opportunity to do it. Not a lot of people don't. They just can't. It isn't practical for them. But I think that's where clarity comes from. Jim. You get out in the nature, you you connect to that balance, and that's the whole point of what those ancient relics and those discoct depictions

from like kef Temple with this. If you want to achieve balance and highest stays of consciousness, the first thing is you must find balance, and specifically

balance through harmony with all things. And what you were saying is that it seems more like what these ancient teachings are trying to tell us and what you were just saying, very very beautifully is that seems it's more of like a game where we start from a point of being maybe very powerful and incredible, and we forget everything, and then we have to try to find our way

back to that point and that return home. Is what I think we're in right now, is that we're finally finding your way home and realizing who we really are. And perhaps with Jim's wisdom and Gen's intellect in the archaeological world and these new discoveries and all these new paradigm changing things, with these teachings that seem to connect us to the very divinity of the universe itself, perhaps we're on the edge of figuring that out finally. Oh I hope so,

I hope. Yeah. Otherwise we're looking at another loss civiliss. There's been enough of those in this world. Jim, Why should we care about looking deep into space? I mean, the James Webb telescopes is a brilliant piece of machinery, But why should we care about looking deeper into the cosmos? I think when we look into the cosmos and we realize, as we now know, we're never going to be able to see the end of it because it is expanding faster than the speed of light, and of course we can

only see things, so the speed of light. I think when we look at that, it forces us to consider the meaning of some big words, infinity and eternity. And if we really meditate on those two words, infinity and eternity, it will do more than every religious lesson you've ever been taught

in any Sunday school or Sabbath school or anything. Just the whole idea of infinity and eternity makes us aware that we are more than our human bodies, that there's we're a part of something much bigger, That consciousness is much bigger, and it portrays itself, I think in wonderful ways. I'm going to take with me from this discussion. For instance, a Gen's idea of people

wanting to build this thing to keep them getting their feet wet. I mean, have you ever seen any other animal on earth wanting to do that? Never, you know, jumping from rock to rock maybe, but actually manipulating the environment. And when you talk about Matt's idea of building these uh, these temples and these crosses and these religious icons, and what's the whole, what's the whole purpose of them to pitch us out from our inside and pitch

us out into infinity, and to pitch us out into eternity. And you realize it takes away in a practical way. It even takes away our fear of death. How why do you? I mean, I'm almost seventy eight years old, now, why should I fear death? When I know that nobody ever really dies? You know, we are just a part of something so much bigger. The body falls away and we are in that infinity and

eternity, which right now we're just trying to say. That's why I think the James Webb Space Telescope is so so important, because it's just popping our minds open. But more important, it's opening up our hearts and dare I say, souls or whatever, to really contemplate something bigger than ourselves. To me, it's just all inspiring out. I go out now at night. I live out here in the woods, and you know, weeks go by sometimes when I don't even see anybody else or hear anybody else, and I

go out there, and who was? I look up at the sky at night and I think that I'm standing. I mean, we have found artifacts, right here on our property. We've found arrowheads, we've found hoes, we've found spear points and all this kind of thing. So I know that people were right here on this property. As a matter of fact, we probably they were probably guided here by the same Earth energy that I first found when I learned how to dows and the energy lines that flow through this property

and right right through the house. Matter of fact, right I'm talking to you right now, sitting right in the middle of a lay line which runs all the way from the Atlantic coast, and if you plot it on a map, it goes all the way through the Great Medicine Wheel in North Dakota and out towards Seattle out that way, And just to think of that kind of energy flowing through our bodies. But we don't realize it. We don't know it until we begin to zero down on it, which is why I

think dowsing is so important. We zero down on it and find it, and all of a sudden, it just makes us realize we're part of a planet and a planetary history and a universe history at Cosmos that is just so infinite and so eternal, and we are a small part of that. I'm just in awe of it. Yeah, it's amazing, beautiful, Jim, I launched and by the way, we're celebrating our tenth year Earth Ancients was launched in twenty fourteen, which is ten years in April grass Yere. Yeah,

thank you. And I tell you I am very passionate about the past, and from a very young age I questioned history. I mean, they would kick me at Jim, I'm sorry to say, I'd be kicked out of Sunday School because I sit there and the teacher would be reading out of the Bible and I'd say it doesn't sound right. Yeah, And to say that at twelve years old or something like that, blasphemous, blasphem how and I'd be asked to leave. After a while, my folks got the message

and they would invite me to Sunday School any more. But probably probably the best thing that happened to both you and your teacher, Cliff. I think to me to Cliff, really similar road in that. Yeah, but I had it happened to me too. I just came back. That's why I had a bad influence. My grandfather was this country doctor had this and I

talk about this all the time. This world class library that had very early writings people like Charles Fort and some of these other guys who were questioning history and looking at the anomalies of the world. And I bought into that hook line and sinker to the point where it kind of fed fed me. And here I am now, but ten years and going strong. This wonderful group, thank you for joining me. Continues the question of what happened in the

beginning, where, how is our history work? How is our history formed? And who makes the decisions of our history? I have found, and I think all of you will agree that a lot of history is questions and subs and formulations of ideas. That is as far as they can take it. And this is our history books. So there's questions and that are not

being answered sufficiently in my feeling about the whole thing. So as we conclude, I want to talk about a discussion that I've had a topic of America, North America being seemingly the youngest of all the discoveries, whereas the Turkey and Egypt and Central and South America have these ancient societies. Everyone thinks that America had these people that were perhaps you know, twelve fourteen thousand years ago

some of the as far as it goes. But in the last couple of years I've had experts on archaeologists, most notably doctor Pauline Steves, who has who, by the way, is an indigenous archaeologist who has gone back to the well known sites of the United States and redated them. Most of these sites are being redated to one hundred thousand plus years in the past, and

which is blowing people's socks off. And the other thing we have to note is that Steves is a indigenous archaeologist from Canada and these discoveries that she has made typically are based on oral traditions. And for many, many years, oral traditions were set aside because they were not able to validate them. You can't use any scientific method for oral traditions. But what she did was brilliant. She worked with different tribes around different parts of the country and correlated oral

traditions. Well, if the flood was around this time period, and this was going on with the the planets, how can we validate that. Well, we validate it with other tribes, other people who have the same stories, the same myths, the same legends. And this is a new form of discovery. Of a new form of reference oral traditions. So I'm excited about that, but even more so in Montana, there's a place called where

is it? It is the Sage Yeah, Sagewall Elkhorn Mountains is the area, and I've had a regular listener and also a contributor on my Facebook page. Her name is Julie Ryder, who is the caretaker of a number of monuments that I had heard about, and I pretty much was like, well, Julie, I can't really buy into this because it doesn't make sense. And she was starting to send photographs and she began compiling a huge, huge

library of photographs. So what I did is in November of this year, I flew out to visit with her in Montana to see these ruins in person, and I gotta say tell you, I was blown away because there are dolmen there, there are monoliths standing stones that humans have put together, and most impressive is what they call the Sage Wall, which is this megalithic wall made up of mega ton blocks that has been perfectly aligned, perfectly stacked and

positioned, and it was written off and has continued to be written off for the last couple of years until about twelve months ago when a team of geologists and archaeologists went out there and started using ground penetrating radar and surveying equipment and all so other scanning technology and have discovered that the Sage wall not only sits on a piece of real estate that has been paved with concrete sixteen feet below the surface, but that the stones have unusual knobs that we find in South

America we find in different parts of Europe, which is a sign of human occupation. The dates have not come back. There's some tentative days of about fifteen twenty thousand years, but the feeling now is, and this is hard one gin is that it's likely between eighty to one hundred plus thousand years old, and this is pre Ice age, this is pre human settlement as we

know it. And this whole area, this Montana megalith area, is now coming back to us after these new discoveries, of these new scientific tests, that is significantly old and that these people were very, very sophisticated. We don't know if it's homo sapien sapien. We don't know if it's neandertoal or

definite dignificent. We have no clue because there's no skeletal remains, but these dolmen, these standing stones, this new wall, well it's not new, it's thousands of years old, is proof that there were dominins in North America. And so to me, it begins showing us that North America has its own unknown history. I mean, we know about American Stonehenge, which is

a unique place on the Eastern Core coast, which is fascinating. But when you look at the megalists of this wall, like I said, some of the stones are one hundred tons, How and the hell did they put those together? How do they move this? It's it's a fascinating uh site, and it actually begins validating that human occupation was in North America significantly earlier than we ever thought. Yeah, well, so you know, Cliff, when you sent this to me, that first thing that occurred to me were the

the megalists and Shoria and I think they're in Russia, maybe Siberia. I was going to ask you about that, Jen, That's that's what reminded me off too. Yeah. Well, a lot of a lot of that Shori is written off, unfortunately by geologists, and this is what really drives me off. They won't go to the place now, they won't go to uh to Montana. They'll just look at a photograph and say, yeah, that's natural. And it's just a challenge to work with that whole mindset. It's

like they write it off before they even get there. So yeah, I mean, I'm going to be honest. I thought it was compelling. The the like the patina or the the external There was like a I don't even know what you call it, but you can see it cracking off. Yeah, the layer falling off. And it wasn't part of the original stone because

that's all grantitede and it's from the Battelis in that particular region. So you know, there are some things that we can draw from its geologic composition that we can know about it, and those formations are very problematic just based on

that. But from what I saw from what you sent me, there were like knobs on some There was a knob a couple knobs on one of the dolmen, and it had a resonant frequency when you touched on when you knocked on it, it actually rang like a bell or had some sort of you know, it was it was resonating in some way. I think that those are things that you can't really contextualize when you don't have the full picture. But I did see those knobs that looked like they had clearly been created by

somebody. I mean, there was something going on there on top of that. I don't know, was it like a It wasn't concrete, but it was flaking off and breaking off of the rock in a way that didn't make a lot of sense to me based on it being a granitic outcrop. It's like some of the stonework has been sprayed with some form of sealant is what the guess is, but no one really knows. And it's not just on

the Sage Wall. It's on a number of important civic areas. When I say civic areas, these are centers where there are standing stones that appear to be pointing to celestial objects or could be constellations, we don't know. The other thing that I found was fascinating is that there are dolmen everywhere, and the geologists tend to say this is the work of slow moving ice forms that were dragging boulders. But you don't lay a fifty ton stone on top on

two elongated stones perfectly and then have the base supported by other stones. It's like, no, no, no, that's not that's not a glacier movement. That is this work of a human being. So it's it's still in its infancy in terms of discovery, but this new series of scans has really

opened the door to and understand these are these are intelligently designed areas. Cliff, A number of years ago, you remember when Graham Hancock's book America Before came Yeah, yeah, Well, just after that book came out, I was I had taken off on a little extra bloration trip of my own. I was looking at mound cultures up and down the Mississippi River. I had to go down to this one particular mound down in Louisiana where the whole thing

theoretically began. And I got in their first thing in the morning. I was the only one in the museum and talking to the docent who was there with me, and he came over and said, do you have any questions? And you know, I didn't want to question anything too much, but

I just wanted to make conversations. So I said, boy, you must be getting a lot of people in here now since Cliff, since Graham Hancock's book just came out, you know, Questioning Dates, and I mean in that book he pushed America history back what one hundred and twenty five one hundred, one hundred and thirty thousand years And I said, so, you must have a lot of people coming in and he said, well, if they do, they certainly know better than to talk about American history being more than

sixteen thousand years old. And I said, well, why would you say that? And he gave me this scientific answer why American history is only sixteen thousand years old? And that scientific explanation was because Graham Hancock is an idiot. He's so mad, that's what he said. That was wow. I mean, it's at some point we have to get bast this antiquated notion of like a bearing straight being the only form of migration, especially with the idea

that early civilizations that predate the Polynesians were already seafaring and understood that. And we see direct correlations with like, for instance, the Olmec of levent To, Mexico, with facial features being clearly African. So we have to open up our ideas to migration roots being not only much more ancient, but also coming from a lot of different places that we're not considering right now living on

the East coast. You know, when the person who heads up the Smithsonian Institute starts talking about across and across Arctic ice, you know, and the possibilities of of you know, where I am right now and up north where I was in New England actually being settled by you know, people from the Solutionian culture and all this kind of thing. You just got to look at all this and say, wow, there's I think we're just beginning to understand.

I think Jen was absolutely right way back an hour and a half or an no, how and a half ago when she said we're just beginning to understand what's going on. Boy, I'll tell you I'm I'll be following your work, Jen, I really will, Jenny, I'm a fan. Yeah. Hey, you guys, this has been a great deal of fun. It's been fun seeing you each and getting your sense of excitement about your discoveries. As we conclude, each one of you just give me an idea of

what you're looking forward to in twenty twenty four. Gen, there's so much, you know. I'm in contact with you a lot, so I kind of know where your head's at But what's exciting for twenty twenty four with you?

Well, I live in New England and I'm new to New England, and one of the big things for me is I am into really evaluating the stone structures all over New England. I visited Iceland earlier this spring and investigated a number of the rock structures in Iceland and how they look very similar to the work that we see here, and not all of it, because a lot of it is Abenaki and a lot of it is early colonists. But I do believe that there's a Nordic component that exists here in New England as

well. J Jen, I have to be in touch with you. I used to live in Massachusetts and on my property was one of those one of those one of those one of those so called those beehive huts supposedly supposed to be storage roots, I mean roots sellers in the middle of a swamp. I never could quite get that. I've spent hours meditated in those things. That's fantastic. We we know both of your brains. We know we know that the Vikings and the Nordic cultures made it. We have evidence of Oh

yeah, Newfoundland. We know they made it to Newfoundland. Clearly they made it to New England. Yeah, that's just like the whole Columbus narrative has to just kind of mean. Isn't it weird that they I'm having a lot of fun with Oak Island these days too. Yeah. Yeah, Matt, what's up for you twenty twenty four? What's on your mind? Well, I mean, obviously we know it's You're spending a great deal of energy to go back to Turkey. So yeah, so my entire life is going to

be based on these these discoveries. I'm writing a new book that's going to be based on it, called The Missing Link of History, right Lost air Ra Civilization. And of course we had this whole film that we're going with a whole crew over there to document and do all this and that that pre survey scouting trip and maybe going in less than two months, so I'm going

to be going this may be happening very quick. But that is going to be followed up with multiple Turkey trips, Bolivia, Peru possibly Peru, and then Egypt in October. So there's a lot of a lot of cool new trips coming up in the match you're very exciting, Matt. I envy you. A couple of years ago, Andrew Collins was scheduled to lead a trip to western Turkey and go Beckley Tepee is how you know all that? And he got in trouble with the government over there and couldn't go, so he

asked me to head it up. Oh man, I couldn't wait. I was going to go to Turkey and then came COVID and I never had a chance to go. Oh I really, I really envy you. You know, let us let us know how things go over there. It's wonderful. Yeah, we're gonna have Jim excuse me, we're gonna have Matt on in a couple of weeks. So we'll do a drill down on specifics and I'll send you guys the details. Okay, Jim, how about you? What are you looking for in twenty twenty four? What's exciting? I am?

Then you're writing constantly, so I'm sure you have a whole bunch of yeah time that you could am an incurable romantic And I am hoping that our generation, our civilization, will come to the point where we look to this guys and contemplate infinity and eternity and find new ways of looking at our lives from a spiritual component rather than just a material component. I'm hoping that that happens this year. Wow, Kim, you're very moving. I feel like you're

very wise, my friend inspired. I mean, thank you. Yeah, this has been great being with you all. I'll tell you, I just really really enjoyed it. Thanks Jen, Thanks Matt. It's just and thank you. Thank you Cliff for pulling it together. It's great to have you guys. Yeah, well listen, hey, fantastic, wonderful group and inspiring

each one of you in your own right. Let's hope that twenty twenty four is a illustrious year's Unfortunately, it's action year in the United States, and as you all know, the country is somewhat divided, and you can't help but talk about it. But let's hope things mellow out a little bit and we can get back to enjoin the United States. Because it's been a challenge. It's been kind of a challenge the last and the preacher says, amen

to that. I want to tell you, I want to just like be like Jim, just go in the woods and have a clear, clear thought process like that, Jim, That's how I'm living too. I ran away to Vermont two years ago. Oh fantastic, fantastic. Did I ever get up that way again? I'm gonna have to visit your boat, that's for sure. Right. I'm in Colorado now, but I spent most of my life in Hampshire, Maine. Oh great, great, wow, Hey Jim, Matt, Jim, fantastic. Happy new Year to each of you,

and thanks for joining me. Thank you, Happy new year. See you. Fun to have friends describing what was impactful for them. And obviously we

just scratched the surface. I mean, if you've been following the podcast throughout the year, we've had quite a few revelations about our past discoveries excavations, and you know, when we get doctor ed Barnhardt or Richard Hansen or any of the other field archaeologists who are actually making discoveries each year at the locations they're excavating, those are also very very important because it trickles down to the

history books. And this is the big challenge we have today is a lot of these newer discoveries and dates that are pushing back our understanding of early man. To know vastly older time periods. It doesn't get into our history books

for sometimes a decade or more. And that's kind of a challenge for me because our kids are the next generation isn't getting up to date data, And you know, when you're in school, you're you're trying to get through your classes, and the last thing on your mind is researching the latest data.

And there's not a lot of time to even listen to podcasts. And so this is just a function of our current society, is that we don't get these new historical events, these new discoveries out there unless you're looking at your iPhone, your your your TV, your internet on you on your computer and seeing these things or have an interest. Now I have an interest in ancient

history, obviously I wouldn't have launched this this podcast. And obviously and also the people that were on this program to they each have an interest in discoveries of our past, and you can hear it in their voice and their passion and their enthusiasm for these new discoveries. So I don't know how to solve the issue of delayed data being placed in our history books, but that's just the nature of our society, and I think it's it's kind of fun and

it's a it is a plus to have social media. And I will say this, we do try to keep up on data on our Facebook page and we have I mean, I placed articles there. Mary who runs our group page Facebook, is constantly posting information that is delivered by students, by individuals who are interested in ancient history, and a lot of it is single images

that are taken of recent discoveries in excavations. But I gotta say this, Mary is located in Portugal, and so she is constantly collecting and dispersing and editing a huge number of images of articles and data from a very diverse collection of individuals, and I got to say that makes that site really really fun. Now there's another Facebook page that is the fan page that she also contributes to, but it's more I would call it more hardcore, and that is

it's about seventy thousand people and growing who are contributing. Who I mean, I will pay post articles and a material there and people really respond nicely to those postings. I want to say this too. We just celebrated seventy thousand fans or they call them likes on Facebook group page and that is a worldwide audience, and not everybody speaks good English. But it's fun because everybody kind of dialed into what happened in the past, What is our history? What

are the historians telling us about our past? And what can we deem as accurate? And what I mean by that is, although we have credentialed academics, archaeologists, anthropologists, egyptologists in the other fields, a lot of this data is guesswork. We guess that the pharaoh did this. We guess that we have a few fragments of a dialogue, we have a few fragments of a ruling or a law, we have a few fragments of a of a

written by these ancient people. But our history, our understanding of the ancients, is guesswork. We approximate data, and so that's something that we need to understand. And it's hard for our historians to give that up and say, yes, we are guessing at this, you know, rather than saying we have hard evidence that this is what happened. The percentage of our history

that is hard evidence is small. It really is small. And when you get into periods that are over a thousand years old, unless it's been written down about you know, an event or a period of time, or a king or pharaoh's decree. It's guesswork. And I really wish that more academics would admit that you know. And I have to say this about doctor Ed

Barnhardt. He will flat out say this, and that is so refreshing for him to tell us that we only have one percent or less of known Mayan data, which is combined in the thirty known cities that we have uncovered and excavated. That's revelatory. That is hard fact, and that is refreshing. If you don't know something, don't say it's the hard evidence. Say this is what we believe, and a lot of data is presented in that manner. We believe this to be true. We believe this to be the way

that this society was developed. So anyhow, that's my two cents on that. Thank you each and all my panelists, Gendeo Lacroix and Jim Willis. That was fun. Each of you had a wonderful material to present, and I hope you'll keep listening to Earth Ancients. We have a hell of a year coming up in twenty twenty four. Lots of new information is coming to light, a lot of people that are not necessarily academics are taking the banner

and walking into unknown, uncharted histories and giving us their impressions. And this is wonderful. There's a whole new narrative that is coming out from other perspectives. And some of these people that we will talk about next year are scientists, are experts, but they're from different fields. And I have to say this that when you look at history from a multidisciplinary approach, you get wonderful, wonderful narratives. You get wonderful, wonderful points of view that are not

necessarily from specific fields Mayanist, Egyptologists, and other so called specialties. This is what I love about Earth Ancients is that we can reach out and touch the ancient past through the lens of other experts, other scientists, other points of view that reflect on their expertise, not necessarily academic. So look forward to that in twenty twenty four. I want to mention as we conclude our program that Earth Ancients is also presenting tours each year, and we have three

tours to talk about. We have Egypt in April April twenty eight through May ninth. We have Turkey for the first time we're going to be in Turkey and that's August fourteenth and twenty fourth, and then we're going to be in Mexico early November. We're still working on our itinerary. It's the second week of November. I'll give you those dates shortly. But if you're interested in touring with us, consider it. We work our best to give you a

reasonable price for a lot of experience and that's really really fun. For the full itinerary on all of these tours, go to Earthancients dot com, forward slash tours to O U R s and you'll see the full einerary on all these tours. Consider these tours a invitation from me to you to come out enjoy, be treated like royalty. We call them diplomatic tours because you get the cream of the crop and you get to see a lot of these places

without the intrusion of the general public. Work hard to do that as well, But come out and join me. I would love to meet you and spend some time and walk with you among these ancient sites that are groundbreaking, that are life changing, that are just wonderful to experience. So consider that. For twenty twenty four, Earthancients dot com Forward slash Tours. I'm also going to provide you with my email address. It's Earth Ancients, the number

four the letter you at gmail dot com. If you have specific questions, if you have somebody you think would be great on the program, send me an email. Let me know and say, Hey, Cliff, I've been reading about this person, or I heard a lecture from this person. I think he'd be a fun interview. Send it to me. I'm always open

to new individuals for our programs. With that, I will say, Happy New Year, Let's look forward to a new and lively twenty twenty four and my best to you and your family, and we'll see you next year. So happy New Year to you,