Welcome to Destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning. Hey, good to see it. Come on in, have a seat. Our science in its current form, and I'm talking about Western science, the United States, Europe has a challenge recognizing what we call consciousness. In fact, they cannot really pin it down because it's not something we can measure. And when you look at the Eastern philosophies, the Hindus have studied and written about consciousness for
thousands of years. In fact, the Chinese have as well, and bits and pieces of emerging data from the Maya is also revealing that they had a grasp on consciousness and how it's projected, and so forth and so on. In our program today we are talking about the near death experience and out of body experiences, and also we dabble into a little bit of the remote viewing. And we've had the top of the line here. We've had Russell targ
and Stephen Schwartz and many others talking about remote viewing and its impact. But within those purviews, we haven't spoken about consciousness. And this is the fundamental basis of a lot of these discoveries. Now, the near death experience has been chronicled for years. In fact, the proponent for the term near death
experiences doctor Raymond Moody, who happens to still be alive. He coined the term back in the early seventies as a physician and actually interviewed over a thousand people who had these was considered clinical death experience where they actually die either on the operating table or at home or in the hospital, and then came back some In the case of Danian Brinkley, and we had Danian on the program a couple of years ago, he was pronounced dead for many, many hours
and then through some act of God, I guess you could say he came back, came back in the body. But when he was in this out of body state, he encountered different realms of reality that we just barely grasp at because we can't measure it, we can't record it, we only can go by hearsay, and very similar to Native American oral traditions. There is enough people out there that are having similar experiences in this near death phenomenon that
we have a huge collection. I just mentioned Raymond Moody, there's others like doctor Brian Weiss in Florida. We haven't had Brian on yet and a lot of other independent medical researchers who are having patients describe the state of consciousness that they're in when they leave their body. Now, I won't get this from a religious point of view because they don't believe that this is anything other than heaven. And you know, there's no great descriptions when you ask your priests
whatever. But today we have the great fortune to have a former minister, Reverend Jim Willis, who's been with us many, many times, who has written this new book. So today's program is Near Death Experiences, After Life Journeys and Revelations, and my guest today is Reverend Jim Willis. We do a lot of different tours each year, and each of them is designed for a different experience. But one of my favorite tours and one that we haven't
done in a few years, is the Sacred Temples of Mexico. This is going to be held November eighth to the seventeenth. It is an opportunity not only to experience some of the oldest in ruins in the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico, but also we have special permission not only to walk through these sacred temples, but also climb pyramids and there's a number of unique locations where we can do that. To learn more about this tour, go to Earth Ancients dot
com forward slash Tours you'll get all the information. Again. It's November eighth through the seventeenth, one week of an amazing experience and very very special. I hope you'll join me. We discussed levels of consciousness here on Destiny quite a bit, and I've been interested in the out of body experience phenomenon for a long time and have had people on the show who represent them Monroe Institute. But there's still a great deal of question about what that's phenomenon is,
how it's achieved. There's so little we know about the states of consciousness that the human body, mind, and spirit can get into. And my guest today is a regular for Earth Ancients as well as Destiny. That's Reverend Jim Willis. And Jim has a new book out called Near Death Experiences, Afterlife,
Journeys and Revelations. And you know what, Jim is the best person to speak about this because as a former minister, you know, you deal with people dying, You deal with people who are in crisis who need to be supported and they come to their minister and say, help me, help me, help me. So, Jim, great to see you, and you've you've tackled this subject quite nicely in this new book. Thank you very
much. It's a It was in one sense it was unnatural because I had already written a book about out of body experience in the quantum mancostic field. We had talked about that before a couple of years ago, I guess you and I, and so in another sense it was so. In that sense, rather, it was just a logical thing from out of body experience to near death experiences. I haven't had any near death experience myself, although I've been around a lot of people who have. But I've had a lot of
out of body experiences, which in many ways is similar. So in that sense it was a natural. But you just you put your finger right on it when you said being a minister and being with people. Because the genesis
of this book goes back fifty years. I was fresh fresh out of school, I was pastor of my first church, taken on a world, knew all of the answers, I was ready to go, and I had an experience that I wish if there was one experience in my life that I could repeat, knowing what I do now, this would probably be the one. I was a Christian minister at that time, fairly conservative, and so was I a believer, Sure, a believer, but maybe not quite. Maybe
I was a hoper more than a believer. Maybe we're an academic believer as a s's a good way. That's a good way of saying that. Yeah. And you know, I had, like I say, I had all the answers, and I had all the Bible verses and all that kind of stuff. And I went to visit this woman who was in the hospital, and I was told that she was probably not going to come out in the book. I call her Hannah, and just a dear old lady remember of my church. And she was sharp as attacked, and I knew she liked
the old hymns of the church. So when I went to visit her, I got in the habit of bringing my guitar with me to her hospital room, and I'd play the guitar and I'd sing Oh in the garden, and how great thou art, and old rugged Cross, and she would sometimes a nurse versus wheel other patients in you know, and they join in and sometime,
but this particular day was the last time I saw her alive. As a matter of fact, I was there by myself and we had finished and I had just finished singing a song and I've putting the guitar away, and she said, who did you bring with you this time? And I said, well, what do you mean, I'm here by myself. She said, oh, I know. She said, yeah, they usually wait until after you leave. I think the music draws them. And I'm saying the
music draws who oh. I wasn't thinking at that time. Music is vibration and consciousness is all about vibration, you know. And she said, yeah, they usually wait till you leave. That's when they come through the They come through the portal. And I said portal. And I looked over at the door, you know, the hospital door, and she couldn't see it because there was a curtain between her and the door, and also the little bathroom there jutted out, so she couldn't see. But I was standing at
the foot of her bed, so I could look right out. The door in the hallway was what door was wide open. I didn't see anybody there, but I was amazed that she used the word portal. Well, I didn't see anything she was, you know, I didn't want to confuse her and all this kind of thing. I said, well, see you next time, and she said yeah. But on my way out, I stopped by the nurses station and I said to the nurses, what was Hannah talking
about a portal and people visiting? And the nurse bless her heart, this was fifty years ago, before they started taking these things really seriously in hospitals, and she said, oh, Hannah's been talking that way the last couple of days. I spect she probably didn't have long to live. Yeah, And I didn't think any more of it. And when I was told the next day, I got a telephone called in the family that Hannah had died
that night, and what I do the funeral? And I said, of course, And so I took the guitar and I sang in the garden at the funeral. And but you know, I didn't take it that seriously, but I never forgot it. And strangely enough, it was that word portal that did it more than anything else. Well, now go forward fifty years, a couple of a couple of months ago, Well, maybe it is a year ago. Now, time goes by so fast. Because I was
just starting to write this book. A couple from the church where I was before I retired came out and he had told me about his mother who had just passed away. And his mother was a good friend of mine, and she liked the old hymns of the church. I used to sing the same songs with her that I had with Hannah fifty years ago. And I said, well, what was it, What was it like? He said, Oh, it was wonderful. I was there with her when she died, and she said, she said, she said she could look down and see
a whole bunch of people waiting to come through the portal. And I said, the what And she said the portal? And I said, she said the word portal, And all of a sudden boom, that one word connected two experiences that were fifty years apart. But I was a different person now than I was fifty years ago, you know, And as a trained you know, theologians, as a minister, you probably didn't have class one oh one on near death experience or how to deal with people who use this vernacular.
Yeah, how to deal with the I mean, you're there to comfort them, perhaps read through scriptures that they may have liked, and you took it one step further, playing the guitar, seeing hymnals and things like that. But here you are, now, fifty years later, going, wait a minute, a hell of a lot more to this man. I'll tell you it was. It was unbelievable. Uh. And of course the difference in me was tremendous. I mean I was no longer the young know it
all preacher. When you talk about did they train the ear for this stuff in seminary, I don't know. Maybe they do now, but it's been but back then they sure didn't they. I had to learn all kinds of important things like did apostle Did the Apostle Paul really write? Uh? Four books to the Corinthians or just two? I mean that really makes a big
difference in life, right. But at any rate, when I when I heard this now and I heard that word portal, it took me back over so many years and so many times I'd been at hospital beds and holding people's hand when they died and seeing them flatline. And then the nurses and the doctors come in. They pushed me out of the room and they went in there do their thing, and the person will come back to life perhaps, and then they'll talk about seeing a loved one or seeing somebody. And back
at the beginning, I guess I kind of believed it. I mean I believed in other entities and angelic beings. I sang about Him and Hark, the Herald angels saying and all that kind of stuff. But now I wish I could go back and relive those days I had a because I think I could learn so much I had. But what do you think when you say that, Jim, what do you think the dialogue would be. I guess maybe you could ask them some more questions about what did you experience, who
did you see, how did it? Yeah, or even what are you experiencing? Who are you saying? And now, Raymond Moody, who und in his nineteen seventy five book Life After Life, was he was the one that coined the term near death experience. But now he's also talking about he coined a new term relatively recently, within the last ten years that he's studying
shared death experiences. Yeah, this is the phenomenon of people family members or people might closer that may they may be standing around the hospital bed, and the person in the hospital bed has a vision because they're dying and their body is shutting down. But the people who are around that hospital bed, the family and the close ones, many of them share the same experience. They see the same phenomenon. And Raymond Moody is studying this now and it's fascinating.
Yeah, I had Raymond Moody in a number of my conferences. This is years ago. He's a fabulous guy. But one of the number one people that came out of his work was a guy named Danian Brinkley, and Brakeley had multiple near death experiences. He went to it to such a degree he was dead for many, many hours and was able to describe the whole phenomenon what happens when we leave our bodies and passed back into the soul realm, realm. So it's fascinating. While we're on it, Jim, let's
give our listening audience the definition of what a near death experience is. Well, it's it's kind of it's kind of tough because to have a near death experience, you actually have to die. We're we're you know, the it is literally the experience of of dying. Whatever that means, and now it's We used to think it really easy to tell when a person was dead.
When their heart stopped, they were dead. Well, now we can keep going people killed going after their hearts are stopped, or when their brain stopped, they were brain dead. Well now we can keep people going on tubes
and stuff when their brain is long done. But the hospital declares you dead, and then for some reason, you come back into the body, and it's a It's almost always followed by a a series of events that are not always the same, but so many of them are repeated that it's fairly common now person talks about leaving the body, and usually from up above, like
in the hospital room. They'll be up above on the ceiling looking down and they'll see their body and they'll realize that that body is dead, and sometimes they hardly recognize it because that's not who they are anymore. But then they are usually you know, the well known stuff that everybody knows, like going
through a tunnel. That's very common, coming through and seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, usually seeing some kind of an angelic being, a spirit being, a being, a light, and that's usually a culturally interpreted thing because Christians have to see like Jesus or one of the saints, or Muslims are apt to see somebody on Hindus are apt to see Krishna or something, you know. I mean it's a cultural phenomenon, but it's somebody.
And then after that they're usually given a life review. That's another very common one. You look back in your life and it's not like page by page. It's like all of a sudden boom, your a whole review. And it's not a judgmental life review. It's not saying, on the basis of this life review, you're going to get to heaven or not. Now, that isn't it at all. It's more a kind of a well, you've finished the course. You want to look back on it and see what
you learned. And Jesus was so fascinating about this life review is they can kind of go from childhood to just before you pass and show these this was you know, what do you think? Yeah, you think nothing's wrong. It's not good, bad, or ugly, it's just whatever you experienced. Yeah. I've come to think of it kind of like deprogramming. We came down here to have experience on this side of the Higgs field, the material fence, you know, and we live our life, however long it is,
and we gain that experience. But that wasn't just to give us a thrill. It was to actually add to the collective, so to speak, so that when we die, those experiences I think are recorded. I think this is the basis of the whole idea of the Akashak library or the Akashak field. I think those experiences are recorded, and the fact that they come in a block like that, all of a sudden, we realized Number one. A lot of people in their life reviews say, I realized that some
of the things I thought were most important didn't matter much at all. The little things that were more important, helping a kid who fell off a bike, you know, and making them feel better, or saying the right word at the right time and making somebody feel more useful, or that kind of thing. I have yet to have somebody come back and say, boy, in my life review, I sure wish I had worked harder, or I had spent more time in work. That never happens, but it happens in
this block of teaching. And people have a hard time talking about that because on this side of our perception fence in the material world. We're used to experiencing the world through our senses, and we used to experience experiences as they come one after another because we're subject to time and we've lived on here in time and space. But on the other side, time doesn't exist anymore, so it doesn't come to us like that. And I've noticed the same thing
about out of body experiences. I've come back from out of body experiences with a block of teaching that I have a hard time understanding and hard time explaining because it didn't come to me sentence by sentence and paragraph by paragraph. It just boom all of a sudden there. And the other thing about coming back with these experiences is that I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people have a tendency to say, this is what it's like when you die.
You go to a park, you see a tree, you hear the birds, you go clouds, that kind of thing, And I just don't think it's that way at all. I think that's what we experienced individually ourselves. But I think each one of us has different individuals based on our life and the little rolodex of experiences we've had and I think that's probably a comforting thing.
I've come to the conclusion myself, at least, I'm happy with the idea that when we die, we carry a certain amount of this life with us, familiar life with us, and I think that keeps us from going from one experience to a totally different experience, which would be very unnerving. I think if we like the outdoors, if we like trees, and if we like clouds, that's probably what we experience because it makes us calmer,
it makes us more comforting. And then gradually, I think we gradually here I am talking about time again, but gradually I think those experiences kind of slough off and we realize a totally different reality. So I think probably what
we experience as a bridge to help us to that next place. Now, obviously, the near death experience, the person who is describing this world comes back to live, obviously, But if we look at the Eastern philosophy, and I'm interested in your take on this, they say the full death is you have the lifetime review. Then you might see some familiar faces who that you live with in this lifetime, and then you go and you are you know, either helped or at to make a decision, you know, preparing
for the next one. Yep. Yeah, And that's something I want to talk a little bit about. But also some of these Eastern philosophies and even some people in the Western side of not only religion but consciousness, and we talk about a Cajuk record, say that perhaps there's a choice to leave the planetary system and go somewhere else. Now, that gets into some pretty heady stuff. But talk a little bit about the full experience when we do leave, just for a little bit. Well, I have Again, this is
only my idea. I'm not trying to start a new religion or tell people this is what it will be, you know. But I have whereas way back when fifty years ago, I had real trouble with reincarnation, and I just don't anymore. We can't if we leave what I now call the Source and journey out here to the rim, the material world that we're in. I think there's a purpose for that. In the Source, where we come from and where we return, there's perfect peace, perfect unity, perfect love.
And a lot of people who die and have near death experiences come back and they say they don't want to come back because it was so beautiful there, and they felt so loving. The words unconditional love are probably the two words that I've heard more than any other two words when it comes to the acceptance. Some people will say, and I think, because what that is is we're returning to that place where there is that oneness, the perfect unity,
perfect love, perfect compassion, all of that. But the thing you can't get in the Source is the idea of individualness. You can't. The Bible hints about this in the Adam and Eve's story. You know, Adam and Eve were one with each other, one with their environment, one with God, until they left that environment and came out into the material world.
I think that's a kind of an allegory for what happens to us. So when we come out here and when we have these experiences, we are able to experience something that we could never experience in the unity of the Source, and that's individuality. We call it ego, and each one of us is separated from each other by that ego. No matter how close how well you think you know somebody, you really don't. I mean, you know you're we're separated from that, We're separated from God, and we spend a lot
of our time trying to recapture that which is probably something within us. We're still entangled with that kind of reality, and so we do our lives trying to recapture the idea of when this marriage, love, all that kind of stuff as an attempt to recapture that idea of feeling one. You know, we're separated from our environment. I mean, I love nature, but I think the guy who invented the screened in porch owt to get a Nobel prize, you know, So that's separation. And I think what happens when we
leave here? We take all this experiences, ego and we take it back with us to the source, and so the source grows. Now, if you want to use the word God, basically we're helping God grow. We are God in that sense. What a wonderful thing that is. That's it. And it also gives me a great deal of peace when times are difficult and when times are not going like I think they should, and I wonder,
how could this be better? Could that be better? It gives me a great comfort to know that somehow I volunteered for that, even the bad stuff, volunteered for that. I even volunteered to experience death. How can you do that? In the source you can't. There is no death, and so all of that I think is really important. But one lifetime is
not enough. That's why I'm firm believer now in reincarnation. I think we come back again and again as often as we want to, and I think that's the key all the anybody forces us to come back, we want to until we feel we're done. Now, whether reincarnation happens year by year, you know, we have an older life and then a not so older life, and then this life and in the future that, or whether it all happens at the same time but in different dimensions that give the appearance of age,
I don't know. I don't know whether we live all these lives at the same time or you know, one after the other. I don't know, and I really don't. I really don't care, because the purpose is not to spend a long time or like that. The purpose is to gather
the experience from multi multi experiential lifestyles and carrying that back with us. We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guest today Riverend Jim Willis discussing his new
book Your Death Experiences Will be right back. My guest today is Reverend Jim Willis, who's written a new book on the near death experience, and he discusses his work as a minister working with people in his congregation and their experiences as near death recipients, other consciousness, out of body experiences, and other levels of reality that people interact with when they leave their body. One of the things I thought was fascinating in the book is that you use the term
consciousness rather than soul. And I thought, as a former minister you would be saying the soul, the soul, but you get into the near death experience, but then you start comparing it with out of body and this is something that you personally have done with and we know we've had conversations about that, sure, but talk a bit about consciousness and it's ability and a growing
understanding of this phenomenon as a fundamental part of what we are. It's funny you should mention that particular question because on Thursday I'm doing a long distance zoom seminar for the British Society of Dowsers and one of the things we're talking about, is that whole idea of what who is the eye that says I have this and I have a body, I have a heart, And it's easy to say it may be the word soul, but you can also say I have a soul. Well, who is the essential eye that has the soul?
I think we have to go to Eastern religions to get this into our heads. And Hinduism is wonderful. I think it is they have and their whole idea of Brachmann and Achmann Brochman is the what I would call the source. You can't describe Brochman. You can't find words to talk about Brockman. Once you put words around him, you've missed it because you can't put Brockman in a box. The essential everything is And all you can do is when
you say Brochman, you can just go that's do it. But they also talk about Atman, which is within each and every single one of us. The individual and the genius of the Hindu rishi six thousand years ago was to say Brachmann and Atman are one tho art that And so I think whatever that essential Brochman is that cannot be explained. It is within us. Now, the closest way that's usually described in English is to use the words so. But I don't think that's it. I think it's well, which is funny
because that's so much of your background. But what you're saying to us is that it doesn't cover enough ground anymore. Now. No, it's not dimensional as and you actually talk about these multiple worlds that we can access with this tool, which is who we are, which is our individual consciousness. Yeah, yeah, and consciousness is I think the best word for this. I
think consciousness is the ground of everything, the ground of our being. I know there's a lot of scientists nowadays we say, oh, consciousness is a byproduct of the brain. The brain fires off neurons and then chemicals start in the body, and that's called consciousness. We are conscious beings. I don't think that's it at all. I think the brain is more of a receiver. It's more of a radiator, a radiator, a radios. Then it
is a generator. The brain receives consciousness. And here's where quantum physics can help, because we talk about the idea of entanglement, how the very particles of our bodies can be so entangled that the two particles can be a universal part and you put a clockwise spin on one, the other one will automatically go to a counterclockwise spin. That kind of thing, and they are entangled
instantly. Well, these particles make up our bodies. And so if it's true on a micro level on a quantum level, I think it can be also true on a macro level. The problem is that on this macro level in which we live, our brains are so trained in the idea of interpreting everything through the five senses that when we go outside that fence, then all of a sudden, language doesn't work anymore. Language is invented to describe things
on this side of the fence. On the other side of the fence, it's all of a sudden, now we're seeing reality with a capital R, where before that we just experience within our fivefold censury fence. We just experienced reality with a lower case Are we think this is all real? No, what we think is real, it's just part of a greater reality. And I think part of that greater reality is that there are all kinds of words that are quantum Physicists are now using. Hugheverett, we back in what nineteen
fifty seven. I think talked about many worlds and the idea of reality collapsing into many different worlds. And every time we make a decision, for instance, we think we flip a coin, it comes up heads or it comes up tails. If it comes up heads, we say, well, there it came up heads, without realizing that in another dimension, right next to us, the Doppelgang or us whoever we were, flipped the coin and it came up tails, and they think that's the reality that it came up tails.
We think, no, it didn't came up ads. I can see it right here. Both are absolutely true, but we can only experience one at a time. And so I think this is what consciousness is really all about. I think it permeates pervades. I think we could almost go back to the Bible and say, in the beginning, consciousness created the world. We just still have enough words to describe it. It's it's mechanism that is
really who we are. Consciousness is just a term we've given it. And I want you to talk in a minute here about your out of body experience and the Monroe Institute. Here's the guy, Robert Monroe, who must have been extremely psychic and could leave his body at will, who developed a number of proms that allowed his students, I guess eventual clients to reproduce this out
of body experience. Talk a bit about the Hemi sync program that you were a part of, and how this is still going on today, but you did it many years ago, and I would think that they have refined it enough where it's like almost you could do it through zoom, but maybe you can't do it through zoom. Well, you know, they do have some
programs on the Internet that will help you along that regard. But before you think that, for anybody who's listening to us thinks that the Monroe Institute is some kind of a wild, out there kind of a thing, it's important to know that since these programs have been now declassified, people like Skip Atwater will talk about the time how the US Army was actually conducting tails trials in remote viewing at the Monroe Institute out of body experience and basically we were training
spies to go out and spy on the enemy without ever leaving the comfort of their own room. And Hemi sink was something that Robert Monroe invented his original one of his original jobs in life and his professions was dealing in sound and he developed I won't get into all the technicalities of it, but he developed this basically thing called hemisinc. Which means what he's trying to do is synchronize
the hemi's hemispheres of your brain left and right, so to speak. Well, that's simplistic, but that's the idea to basically vibrate at the same time and bring them into sync with one another, so that our intuitive and our intellectual side were in touch with each other. And that's really important because right now we talk about left brain right brain, we talk about women think different than men. You know, men are left brain thinkers, women are right
brain diggers. But what Monroe was saying is that no, we're both that way, and we have the ability to go out of our body and yet with full consciousness, with full intellectual consciousness. I started having these out of body experiences and I really felt the need for more, so I went up to the Monroe Institute. Though it was quite some years ago, fifteen sixteen years ago now, I guess. I went up to the Monroe Institute.
I was up there for a week studying with William Buelman, and I think you know, Bill is probably one of the greatest teachers in the world today about out of body experience, and it was just phenomenal to use Robert Monroe's he had died by this time, but to use his techniques, his scientific techniques and his technology to really help people bridge that gap and get out of their own body and be able to experience realities that we're outside of our sensory
me ask you real quickly, in this training that you took, were you given parameters to access like different parts of the world out of your body or did you actually get a chance to look at other dimensions where if you use the technique maybe you could shift beyond this reality and move into other reality. I mean, that's a pretty big well, no, but that issue,
But that's an excellent question because the answer is both really Yeah. As a matter of fact, we talk about astro travel and what's the other term I'm thinking about right now, Oh, being seventy eight has a drawbacks. Your brain doesn't bring up the word that you're looking for, but two different travels. One that the Army was especially concerned was was keeping within this dimension and actually going places like going from New York to California and seeing something that was
going on in California called remote viewing. But then there's another that takes you beyond the reality that we see into realities quite frankly, that are totally different than what we understand, and some very comforting realities. I've had the experience, and I've heard many people that had near death experiences say the same thing. I've had the experience of being out there and not wanting to come back, but knowing that for some reason you had to, and so you come
back. I'm looking forward to that time and when it comes time to look at my own death, which I have to start looking at now realistically at my age. I hope that's the way I go. I hope sometime I get out there and I'm having a wonderful time and make the decision this time, no, I'm not going back. What was what was Monroe's hope in
teaching these out of body experiences? Was it for the people? I mean, it sounds like it's a great deal of fun, But was there a learning aspect of it that he wanted people to to gain greater or not? I mean, because it's a whole different spectrum of reality. Yeah, you know, how do you how do you know? I'm sure people, there's all kinds of books out there. Obviously this is your new book right here on near death experiences. But what would be the learning aspect of it?
Can you go perhaps in a situation where you're like Tesla and you're downloading new data? Because I believe Tesla went to the Acaheak records. They actually downloaded a great deal of his inventions from that source. What would you say? What would you say? I think many people that Einstein was known for his
thought experiences, and Edison, Tom Edison used to bring those along. He would snap in his chair and carry a handful of marbles, knowing that when he fell asleep, the marbles would fall on the floor and wake him up and bring him back. You know, because many of these how many inventors or painters or musicians said when they created their work of art or their work of technology, they worked and worked and worked and worked, and nothing happened
to all. All of a sudden, they just gave up and boom, in an instant, it came to them. Monroe had some of that in mind. There are some practical things that Monroe is doing right that Monroe Institute is dealing right now. One is the work of the what is called the psychopomp and that's that sometimes when a person dies, they are so connected with
this world that they can't let go, and so they stay there. In the English words, we would say they kind of want the landscape in which they died because they just couldn't be And I've had the experience three times. Although I never studied at the Minorroa Institute how to do this, but they do have classes that teach this. I've had the experience three times, have actually seen people like this and actually helping them to go on. You don't
have to stay here, you know. So that's the classic ghost Yeah yeah,
something like that. Yeah yeah, And it's I think it's really important, especially when we understand that the very first religion that probably humankind ever had, and that was thousands upon thousands of years and I'm talking at least forty fifty thousand years ago, was shamanism, and the shaman of the tribe would actually leave his body when he was dealing with somebody, trying to heal somebody or bring help to somebody, and he didn't know how to do it.
He didn't know what herbs to use, he didn't know what techniques to use, he didn't know what this person needed. And the shaman would actually leave the body and go get information. And it wasn't just to give the shaman a thrill. It was so that he could come back with practical information that
would help people in this life. And I think that's what Robert Monroe had in mind, the whole idea of being there is a practical reality to knowing that just because we are involved within this fivefold censory fence, this is not
all there is. And quite frankly, I think we're living in a day right now where a lot of the idea of the greater reality, which used to be a part of religions and part of intuition of ancient priests or ancient shamans, a lot of that is now being explored in a totally different way by modern scientists, physics, physicists, and I think they are using mathematics
to come to understand that greater reality. And they call it counterintuitive and all this kind of stuff, but basically they're exploring the same reality through math that the ancients explored through intuition. So I think we're living at a particularly yeasty time of human human accomplishment right now. I think two roads are coming together, the intellectual, the intuit and the intuitive and h and if if, if we don't find those answers and find them quickly, we could very easily
discroy and destroy this this world in which we live. The problem I have with this uh physics is that a lot of it is so far in advance for average people, even those of intelligence, that they lose people, they
lose him completely, and you don't see it every day. Now. On the other side of that, you give a great example of the you Knowetic Science Institute, the ions you've had being rad and a number of their people on this program who are describing and discussing consciousness and discussing out of body experience, and so we have, you know, and how brilliant of edgar Mitchell
to launch this this institute. Talk a little bit about his experience as an astronaut, I mean back from the moon and having this huge aha moment, yeah yeah, and deciding that he's going to launch this scientific Instituteeah. Edgar Mitchell is one of my heroes. I mean, yeah, you know, talk about he had a long commute back from work one day, you know, on the way back from the moon, and he looked and he saw that that that planet, that what later was called you know, that small
blue dot, you know, and everything else. He realized that what we experience and what we do is just it's it's that real with a small r
rather than the reality. And his idea in in forming the nodic, the whole idea of neetic sciences was because quite frankly, as a scientist himself, you know, he understood that there's a deep, dark secret when you talk about sometimes the physicists make it, you know, it seems so very hard, and they even look down on us because we can't understand their mathematical formulas. And the sad thing is, I think sometimes they do that on purpose.
Most of these people were nerds and they were picked on in school, and most of them had a tough time. Now all of a sudden, they're worldwide, they're famous, they got money coming in, and they want to make it difficulty. They don't want to bring lay people around it. Not that I'm not saying every week, yeah, ego fulfillment exactly. I'm not saying they're all like that. But there's a certain condescension that, well, you talk to enough scientists, you're going to run into it. It's
a patronizing thing. Oh you just can't seem to understand this and the I and the idea that I had to go through school. I had to go through four years of high school, four years of college, eight years of you know, to get my doctorate and everything else and learn all this stuff. And now you're telling me that some guy who's dropped out of the eighth grade can have an intuitive experience and understand or that some Hindu rishi six thousand
years ago said what I'm saying, it's the same thing. But no, that's not it at all, you know, and you get tired of that after. That's the scientific method that I always pardon me bitch about out because it gets into archaeology and new discoveries and it just makes a mess of everything everything. It's it's kind of stuck in a rut right now. Yeah. Yeah, uh, you know, an archaeologist would never think of going to go Beckley Teppy and digging and taking a pair of dowsing rides with him.
Yeah, never, never using some kind of sensitive electromagnetic field sensitive tools when the lyric field there or something. Yeah. Yeah, no, that that's you know that, and and and archaeology has suffered because of this, Yeah, terribly. We We could go back and talk about, you know how the Clovis first ruled this world, this nation for one hundred years. Yeah. And then then uh, and boy Andrew Collins comes out and says, I mean when Graham Hancock comes out and says, uh, maybe not,
maybe there's other way to look at that. He got crucified. I mean, you know that, what does he know? He never he never did all the schooling and I did. He never had to take all the tests that I did everything. Yeah, No, I was just using common sense and intuition. Yeah. The books called Near Death Experiences, Afterlife Journeys, and Revelations. And my guest today has been Jim Willis. Jim, you bring up a couple of people that I want you to talk about kind of
the new science people like. His name is Robert Lanza, who has brought up a topic called consciousness generates Well. His idea is consciousness generates life, and that whole idea is something that is a kind of a spiritual science that the Hindus kind of understood but didn't necessarily practice, which is kind of like you create reality that you live in. Yeah, yeah, And talk about him, because I haven't heard about Lanza, and he's said brilliant he's written.
He's written a couple of books, and the whole idea is that if we're going to find the meaning of life, we're not going to find it out back there in the past or out there in space. We're going to find it in biology itself, and that biological entities. His books are very easy to understand until you try to start talking about them. That's exactly right. Written very well at string theory, yeah, yeah, And and they're written very well. And I think he is a brilliant man, and I
think he's really onto it. But basically he talks about consciousness creating reality and how does it do it? Creates it through biological entities. Now, surprisingly he doesn't say that, he doesn't bring this up in his book, but I made the connection myself. I don't know whether he would agree with this or not. But you know, I think the ancient writers knew about this.
I think four or five thousand years ago, the ancient Jewish writers were writing the Book of Genesis, for instance, and they would say, in the beginning, let's just change a couple of words. In the beginning, consciousness created the air, heavens, and the earth. Well, how did it do it? By looking at it, God saw that it was good. In other words, consciousness itself created all that is around us. And it's really too simplistic to put it this way. So I really recommend looking
at Luns's books. But he is just an absolute a brilliant guy, and who talks about the idea of us actually collapsing what we call reality into the material world simply the fact that we are here. So here we are, or it's amazing. You know, I'm a big advocate of meditation. I guess you could call me a hippie, well, the residuals of a hippie,
because I was. I practiced transitental meditation, which was a developed meditation, simplified meditative technique that was invented by the Maharishi mash Yogi, and I for years would look at the original source material that he developed it from. And a lot of these these holy men were meditating half a day, sometimes a whole day, and in the West you can't do that. You just don't have you know, the time, the motivation, or the discipline to
sit for hours. And so this is a TM is brilliant. It's brilliant. But as we're closing, when we're talking about out of body of experiences and remote viewing and other techniques, what is your suggestion for people to get in touch with their conscious self? And you know, how how do you move that to a level where you're not just going I have a nine to five existence and that's all there is. Yeah, best way and best way
to do that in my experience is to retire. And that's that's exactly why that's exactly why I retired and why I am living now where I am. When I retired, I wanted to get in personal contact with this spirituality that I've been preaching about my whole life. I've been talking about it, but
I was too busy. And I was a CEO of a small company called a church, and we had to have all the business meetings, and we had to have all the board meetings, and we had to raise money and take care of the buildings, plan this and plan that, and growth and everything else. When I retired at sixty two. It was wait, it was too early. I really couldn't afford it, but I said, I'm missing it. I've missed it my whole life. And I came out here
to the woods just for that purpose, the woods of South Carolina. I built a little house at the end of the road. And I didn't know it was fifty two that you retire. That seems you must have been sixty sixty sixty sixty two, yeah, sixty two, yeah, okay. As soon as I could get Social Security, I retired, and I was I was lucky. I mean, I came out here to live in the woods for one year and to simply meditate and have a twenty four hours meditation just
you and me. God, you know, all alone. You say you want a challenge, take it on. And I was going to come out here and live for one year before I left the woods and went back to civilization. And that was about sixteen years ago and I'm still here. So it worked out very well. But unfortunately we all know not everybody can do that. I was extremely lucky. Yeah, it just worked out. But
it is tough. It is tough. And you know when people talk about taking a long walk or meditating for fifteen to twenty minutes in the morning, or going on a retreat for a weekend or something. Those are all wonderful things. They're good things, and by all means do them. But is it sufficient to really break out of this life? No, we are all
prisoners of the lifestyle that we have built. And it's so loud, and it's so fast, and it's so congested, and it's just so much that I'm not surprised at all that people are losing their way nowadays, a whole lot more than they used to. Just think about the simple little thing like going to town to get some groceries. You get in your car and go
to get the grocer come back. It used to be that the farmer would, you know, get his family together on the back of the buckboard and they would go down the road and they would have this long process of maybe singing or talking or whatever. We don't do that anymore. You know, life is so much faster now. Oh yeah, you know. I have a continued problem with my car battery because I never used it enough and so it continually runs down. I got to put it on a trickle charger.
My car sitting in the front right front yard right now. And I can't use it because better it doesn't work. But most people use You know how many times you get in your car every day? You know, Well, I get my car maybe once a week, and it makes a difference, makes a huge difference. Yeah, I work from a home studio myself, so I know I maybe I drive three times a week. Yeah, yeah,
I had to hear it totally. But if anybody is does really want to take meditation seriously, you've got to find the time and make it number one in your life. You know this, you know yourself. I'm sure it's got to become the most important thing. You've got to find that time according to your own bio rhythms, when you're awake enough to be able to really concentrate, but tired but really relaxed enough so you can meditate without falling
asleep, you know. But and with me, when I when I started out, for some reason, I found myself waking up at three o'clock in the morning every morning. So I just said, okay, I'm going to meditate, And at three o'clock that's when I got up and would do my meditations. And sometimes I was still meditating when the sun came up. So were you meditating for as long as it felt comfortable or did you have a timeline. No, I didn't have a timeline. Matter of fact, I
have more watch for thirty years. I didn't have any kind of a timeline. I started to meditate and I said I'll be done when I'm done, and that was it. And sometimes I would get very involved in and out of body experience or something like that, and I would be out. My wife said, I'd be out for an hour or two hour or something like that. Sometimes it wouldn't work. Sometimes, you know, fifteen twenty minutes and I'm still thinking about what's for dinner, you know, So it's hard.
Yeah, Hey, much success on this new book. Give people an idea where they can get a hold of you. What's your website again, Jim Willis dot net, www dot Jim Willis dot net. Okay, And if you go to that website, you'll find all my books right the Near death Experiences around the front page, and all my books are there. All I get to is click on it and you'll take you right to Amazon or
to wherever you can get them. Just came out as released April the ninth April ninth, So it's available at on Amazon and most of your other electronic bookstores. What kind of work, what's what kind of events are coming up in your world? Are you speaking anywhere? Well? No, Unfortunately my health is such that I just really can't get out and do much speaking in public speaking anymore. But it's it's kind of strange. I was doing so much of it for all my life. For forty years. I was a
public speaker and teaching in college and doing seminars and having groups. So I came out here of the woods to get away from all that. And in one podcast I might talk to more people now than I would talk to a year. Yeah, you reinvented yourself. This podcasts are pretty amazing. I guess. Well, you're doing an important Workcliff, especially with your with your history, with your experience. I mean, you've you've affected some great change in this world. And so keep it up, keep it here. You're
helping us all. All right, Hey, Hey, listen much success the book again Near Death Experiences, Afterlife, Journeys and Revelations. And my guest today has been Reverend Jim Willis. All right, Jim, my success, Thank you, Thank you, Cliff, I wanted to mention that Near Death Experiences just came out last week and you can find it on Amazon. It's available on Amazon or wherever you get your electronic books, or you can go to Jim Willis dot net and get it there too if you want. So
good to have Jim on the program. I want to mention that we do a number of tours every year, and we have a tour coming up in August the fourteenth through the twenty fourth. It is a twelve day tour of some of the most amazing sights in turn and we're going to be going to darren Kuru, Cappadocia, and we have a special invitation to visit go Beckley Teppi, which I've been wanting to go to forever, and remember that is
the oldest temple in the world. This temple that is it's just below the surface and we'll get a chance to see it up close and personal, among other places that we have on this itinerary. For more information on any of our tours, including Mexico and what's coming up on twenty twenty five, go to Earthancients dot com Forward slash Tours t o u RS You get all the details there, and if you have any questions whatsoever, send me an email.
Send it to Earth Ancients the number four of the letter you at gmail dot com and I'll get right back to you. Some of our tours take a bit of time to get to and if you haven't left the States before, sometimes you need questions answered, and I'm here to answer them for you. We're all over the place, we're all we fly all over the world, and our tours are just not only experiential, they're a great deal of fun. So come out and join us for more information. Earthasients dot com
forward slash Tours. All right, that's it for this program. I want to think my guest today, Reverend Jim willis coming to us from South Carolina. As always, the team of Gil Tour, Mark Foster and everyone who makes this thing happen. You guys rock all right, take care of be well, and we will talk to you next time. A A A A