Welcome to Destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning. Hey, Hi, how are you. It's good to see you. Yeah. A lot of people question the use of psychedelics and they wonder why why people like Graham Hancock and other people are taking ayahuasca. Years ago, as a program director, I travel old with Terrence McKenna, who was a huge advocate of MT cannabis, which I am a fan of, and other psychedelic drugs for inner journeying or inner discovery. By the way, I really urge you to get
McKenna's book that has been so influential for so many people. It's called Food of the Gods, The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge, and it was written in the late nineteen eighties, but oh my god, what an amazing read. And he describes these these different intelligences, these different beings that
he encounters using DMT and other psychedelics. And since that time a lot of people have hailed McKenna as a genius for forgiving us a sense of use of this and perhaps have you know, and he has influenced a number of important people in their research of ayahuasca. One of these people is doctor Rick Strassman, who we've had on this program a number of times. And Strassman did studies with subjects, with patients in a controlled environment where he gave them doses
of DMT, and they reported all kinds of experiences. And one of the things that I found quite interesting and also way back in the nineties with mckinna, is the fact that when you're using this powerful drug, it shifts your perception and perhaps your reality into other zones and you're communicating with other beings.
And mckinna regularly reported on communicating there was advice given. Unfortunately, DMT has a short shelf life or short reaction life, and it's only good for perhaps fifteen to twenty minutes, and this makes it difficult to bring back a lot. And one of the problems with DMT is it's so powerful that it's really a challenge to remember what the hell is going on and bring back any data.
But Graham Hancock's been a whole book called Visionary describing what appears to be an annual ayahuasca journey, where he is, over a period of a few days, dosing himself with ayahuasca, and those are typically longer journeys, an hour or more, and I haven't used dayahwasca. I'm kind of afraid to use it. I have to use it before I leave the planet. I've
determined that I'm going to definitely give it a shot and try it. But you know, when we talk of about Rick Strassman's work, and by the way, if you want to really get a good book, get DMT The Spirit Molecule, where he describes his patients communicating with different aliens, different beings on different reality levels. And this fascinated him to no end, and he
continued his work. And actually I don't know. I think when we had him on last year he had stopped the research, but he was also working with other clinics and this is part of our program today where he is collaborating with other people, other clinics to determine just how far this psychedelic will work. Now, my guest today is doctor Andrew Gillimore, who has written a fascinating book called Alien Information Theory, Psychic Drug Technologies, and the Cosmic Game.
And what makes Andrew's work it's just so fascinating, is the fact that he can provide a client with an infusion of dmteeth a intravenous drip and keep the experience going for an hour or more. Now, it's a special person who wants to volunteer to be high for an hour for an hour, but as we'll here today in this interview, there are conditions that allow the individual to quickly disengage from the experience and and stop the sensations, stop the high.
What I really want you to listen to, though, is the fact that these individuals who are in Gilmour's program are having full on communications with aliens. Now, we don't know if it's aliens in the sense of grays or the or the reptilians or whoever is out there, but what we do know is that the information that is being delivered is profound. That in many cases, these these entities are communicating in fifth, sixth, seventh, tenth dimensional
realities. They're they're showing the experiencers different objects, different machines, different data, and trying to have the individual come back to Earth with the information. Now, one of the things that is a challenge, and we'll hear about this today, is the fact that when you're using DMT, your memory is altered and it takes a lot to come back with any data of substance other
than a few paragraphs or thoughts of the interaction. This new work, I think, is a possible pathway to bringing in new technology, new thinking, perhaps new devices, in the same way that our scientists have an epiphany, have a dream, or have a Aha moment where they develop a new drug, a new product, than new device, or as Tesla would think,
a new machine of some kind that is functional in our reality. We had we had to go back to visionary Graham Hancock's book where he describes shamans using psychedelics to speak with the gods, but also very possibly to bring back data that moves us forward, that that takes us to the next level, that that helps us in some capacity evolve. And is this an actual possibility of data being used in a positive manner to help us move to the next stage
in our evolution? Very impossible, very much possible. The only thing is that our scientists, for the most part, at least we don't we think, are not taking psychedelics. So is this a way to accelerate our growth?
It sure looks like it, and doctor Gilmour's work offers us a lot of possible solutions for quickening the pace, quickening the journey of Earth humans and maybe moving us into a space age where data is provided by our community or offerable beings that is retained and helps us move to the next level and evolution. So we can only wonder what our ancestors were telling us when we look
at these cave paintings. Now, a lot of people feel that a paintings were distorted reality and that many of them may be evidence of psychedelic journeys that these shaman were taking. And the data that we interpret looks very sophisticated, but who knows, they may be just observing their reality, you know.
I mean, some people interpret some of the coloring as very sophisticated in facts is sophisticated as modern day color palettes of an artist, and many interpreting anthropologists or archaeologists or scientists in general are saying that this is a form of evolution, highly advanced, only available in current artistic presentations. But I don't know. I don't know if it's because they were on a hallucinogen, if they
were tapping in somewhere, We don't know. But again, our program today with doctor Gilmore makes us think about the use of DMT as a roadmap to connecting with other consciousnesses. And this could be a way to tap in to evolution, tap into new technologies, new devices, new sciences that can make our life better. And the other thing that you'll hear is some of these interviews that he gives of these patients that are on these drip DMT sessions do
identify themselves as alien beings. Now again, you won't hear the grays. You won't hear a specific race of beings. But perhaps they've evolved beyond the physical and they are gaseous or spiritual, they have no bodies. Maybe they're just consciousness. And I've always wondered about this as well as a lot of other people. So today's program is an interesting one. It is an interview that was done at content in the desert. There were so many great people
of contact in the desert. And if you get a chance to go next year, go come out to California. I'll be there. I hope to be there. I'm hoping to be earthing in destiny or hoping to be sponsors again. It was a lot of fun. Come out and join the program. This is really a cutting edge program. You can't get sixty plus speakers under one roof for three or four days. In any other place in the world. It's just too complex. But it's a great program. Content in
the desert and I had a blast. And this is one of the interviews I did with doctor Andrew Gilmore and the talk is alien information theory. Hey, this is Cliff Dunning and Ed Barnhardt inviting you to join us November tenth to the seventeenth as we visit and explore Mexico. This is your opportunity to come and join us for a week of exploration, fun and sites that you will not typically go. What's unique about Polenki ed Polenk is a beautiful site,
but what people normally see is just a fraction. I know where all the hidden temples are out there in the jungle, and I'm going to bring us there. Amazing, all right. For more information go to Earth Ancients dot com, Forward Slash Tours t O U r S. Come out and join editing myself for one week of fun, adventure and exploration. Hey, well we're here at Contact in the desert, and I gotta tell you it is a wonderful event. And my guest today is Andrew Gilmour and we have
been. I have actually been studying his work, which I find is brilliant. And Andrew, Welcome to Earth Ancients. It's great to see you. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. Real quickly, you came from Japan. What is the interest intrigue in Japan of all places for a researcher of your ELK. Yeah, a lot of people ask that question, like, um, Japan has this reputation for being extremely strict, shall we say, with regards to drugs. But actually Japan they tend to focus on
cannabis weirdly for historical reasons, and meth amphetamine for other historical reasons. They have good reasons to not like meth because Japanese in the past have been notorious meth users. So they're very strict with those two drugs in particular. But psychedelics, Um, it's not the main focus shall we say, of Japanese government and law law enforcements. And certainly there's freedom, full freedom of expression in Japan, so I can I can write and say what I like.
Um, you know, I don't break any laws. So it's a perfect environment for me in Tokyo to be writing. Tokyo is a strange bizarre, complex, fascinating city. So it's a good place to be writing about the kind of things that I write about. And you actually do note that you worked with or you were part of the staff at Okinawa Institute. Was that
were some of the studies were done that you know? Well, yeah, so I was a research scientist, a computational neurobiologist in the Okinaw Institute of Science Technology, so in the south, the smaller subtropical island and south of Japan. But I was doing purely kind of theoretical, mathematical and computational modeling work there. But the actual DMT studies and humans have all been done in the UK and in Europe and now in the United States as well, so
I don't actually inject people with DMT. Fascinating. We've had Rick Strassman on the show number of times, and his earlier work in studies of the DMT molecule are fascinating and we've learned a great deal from him. You've worked with him in certain capacities and actually taken his work to a new level. Where do you where does Strassman's work end in your work began with his research? Yes, so, so Rick did the world's largest study of DMT and humans
back in the early nineties. You have like sixty volunteers. You did injected with dmpty a number of times. So he used what kind of a traditional approach to drug administration. He injected them with what's called a bolus injection, so all of the drug in basically at once, which gave them the typical characteristic DMT trip, which is extremely intense other reality. You're hurtled into this alternate reality filled with intelligent beings, and you're therefore maybe five minutes, you
know, until you start being dragged out again. So it's a very brief trip, but still fascinating, and lots of incredible trip reports came out of
that study in the nineties. But what I wanted to do was actually extend that trip to try and draw it out, to kind of use this continuous infusion of DMT directly into the bloodstream so that you can maintain a brain DMT concentration over time, and so you can rather than just you know, five to ten minutes, this could be extended for an hour or two hours,
or you know, as long as you want. Really. So it was actually Rick's data from his so he had this blood sampling data, so when these participants in the nineties were under the influence of DMT, he would take blood samples and measure the DMT concentration. So we had these kind of plots of DMT brain blood concentration over time, so we use that data. So that's kind of why we started working together. I emailed Rick and said,
I have this idea for extending this DMT state too much longer. Do you have this data that was published in one of your papers, And fortunately he had it tucked away in some hard drive or something, so he sent me this xcel file with all of this blood data and I went ahead and sort of used it to build this mathematical model of the way that DMT has distributed and metabolized and excreted, and we use that to develop this target controlled intravenous
infusion model. So this technology repurposed from anesthesiology to maintain a stable brain DMT concentration. So that was in two thousand and sixteen we published that proof of principal idea. But it's been picked up now by a number of groups, most recently the Imperial College Psychedelic Research Group in London. One of the world's leading psychedelic research groups, and they've just completed study in humans, a small
study with ten or eleven participants holding them. They were able to stabilize this DMT experience for thirty minutes or thirty minute infusion. There's a team in Basel and Switzerland who have just published very recently, in the last couple of weeks, we're able to stabilize the state for ninety minutes and there seems to be
no limit to that, so this could be extended much further. I have to ask you, though, putting someone under for an hour with DMT in the beginning, it might be fun, but at some point when you're in this experience, you may want to be let out. Can you release the person if they're having stress? Absolutely? Yes. Okay, so it's not like, okay, you're locked and loaded, buddy, we're not gonna let
you go. No. That's what's kind of beautiful about the technology. It's not like with LSD or something where you give them the drug and then you're in there for the long haul whatever, whatever the consequences might be, whether it's a good trip or a bad trip. With d MTX, because it's such a short acting drug. You can withdraw the infusion very quickly. They will come start coming down almost immediately. Oh so yeah, you might.
I don't know what technically, might have a safe word or something I've had enough, Yeah, something like that. Okay, fascinating Our ancestors used ayahuasca. Yes, And Graham Hancock, who's an advocate of yours, a very pro of your work. I think we've talked to others that this is a form of evolution in that because they were to leave their body at the present time or the time they took ayahuasca, and actually we're speaking with these entities
may have absorbed certain bits of information. Graham kind of presents that a little bit in his book Visionary. But I'm curious about your feelings of how DMT may have been used previously other than shamanistic method. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, you're right. So DMT use in humans goes back probably thousands of years. You know, ayahuasca is a form of technology. It's a it's a jungle technology, it's a it's two plants minimally that you have
to mix together in order to make DMT or really active. But there are other sources of DMT that have been used as well. These snuffs cohoba yopo, these ground up seed paul that are used as a snuff, so they're forcefully blown into your nostrils. This is another form of technology, very unpleasant by all accounts. Yeah, I've seen that doesn't look comfortable. Yeah, like a blow dart, Like like a yard long forcefully explosively blown up into
your nostrils by another person. I mean, it's awful. So fortunately we seem to have discovered or developed much more efficient ways of actually using DMT. Now, going back to the nineteen fifties, when we when Steven Zara, this Hungarian physician, first synthesized DMT and injected it into himself to test its psychedelic effects. And you know that that's where it all started with his first
subjects, his first study of DMT in human volunteers. And from those very first studies, people were starting to see these entities, you know, the these spirits or gods that these indigenous peoples have been describing for thousands of years. They made an appearance in the very first studies in this hospital room, in this clinic. So since then, obviously DMT has become more and more popular. Now and once Rick Strasman became involved with his study and published his
DMT The Spirit Molecule, it's become even more popular. And of course Terrence McKenna this his wonderful oratory an exposition on DMT. I mean that is again has never been, never been rivaled. I think so. Yeah. His descriptions of the entities and the machinales are things of legend now, and they really are. And I see this DMTX technology as being the natural, the natural progression from these jungle technologies through to twentieth century technology which was vaporizing this
molecule in a small glass pipe or injecting it. And I see this continuous infusion as the natural progression. I treat DMT as a as a technology. I don't see it as a drug. I see it as a molecular technology for switching your reality channel, for establishing communication with these intelligences, these advanced intelligences which reside within this space. I want to talk about those intelligences in
detail in a minute. Here in the introduction of your book, you quote mckinna who says, the main thing is understand is that we are imprisoned in some kind of work of art. What do you think he meant by that? And as that statement you kind of bring around continually is kind of the theme of the book. Your book, by the way, is alien information theory wonderful? Thank you? Yeah, so that that when I first read
that statement, it perplexed me. I wasn't quite sure. I felt that there was something really deep and profound about that statement, the idea that we are imprisoned in some kind of work of art. And I spend a lot
of time thinking about it. And when you go into the DMT space, there is this real, undeniable, unshakable sense that you are entering a constructed realm, a place that has been built by an intelligence of immense proportions, so we say, And so it feels like we are indeed normally trapped within a lower dimensional slice of a much larger and more complex structure. And DMT grants us ten perary brief access to this larger, higher dimensional structure filled with
these intelligences. So that's kind of how I see this work of art, this cosmic game, or this cosmic joke as some people like to refer to it, that we are indeed like a work of art. You know that this realm has been constructed in some way by some intelligence that is vastly more capable than ours, much further along the progression of technological and cognitive cognitive advancement.
So that's I think what Terrence was getting at there. I think that feeling when you enter the DMT space, of this vast intelligence, of the fact that we are indeed trapped in this lower dimensional slice of reality. So you talk a great deal about the break and I've seen a couple of your YouTube videos which are excellent, where you have these diagrams of how the brain functions, how it categorizes things, and how you've charted its different paths.
Is you're suggesting that we're at a certain level, born into this certain level. DMT elevates us into multi levels. Apparently, do we control that on some level when we're using DMT, or is it more that DMT gives us an opportunity to explore it, but we have no control. I think we have limited control. Certainly at the moment, we're kind of at the mercy of the experience. This is you are hurtled into this realm and hurried around.
It is a very dynamic experience, and people find themselves highly disoriented, unable to control the experience. But with experience, people do seem to develop an ability to orient themselves to kind of get their intellective tools in order once they're enter the space, and this DMTX technology also seems to allow the state to stabilize to some extent. Once the brain kind of get gets used to or settles into constructing this alternate reality model, things start to settle down.
It's you know, you're switching. You're very rapidly kind of switching the reality channel. Your brain is switching from constructing the normal waking world to constructing this completely different reality model. And it's not surprising that at first this is a bit jarring, this kind of roller coaster phase, and it takes time for your brain to kind of settle, I think, and normally with a normal DMT trip, because it's so short, you don't have that opportunity for it
to settle and to stabilize because you're already on the way out. As as it's starting to stabilize and you're starting to orient yourself and starting to communicate with some beings within the space, and then you're dragged back out into the norwaking world, and what we're seeing with this DMTX technology is that it does over time, over several minutes normally as you would be just coming out of the
experience. You're held there, of course, and it allows the state to stabilize and people can then orient themselves and work out how to navigate to move through the space with intent. Obviously they're disembodied, they don't have their arms and legs to carry them, so they have to use directed intent to move
through the space. It's funny you mentioned intension. This is kind of a new new it's been used for their kides, but in the last ten years on the cannabis side, for people that have a real positive experience, the suggestions are too intentionally wish on a positive experience. And I'm wondering when DMT is used, if this is kind of like a software application where you use
I intend for this to happen. I intend for this entity that I've already spoken with to come back and speak with mead that does that fit into absolute
experience? Absolutely? Yeah. So what's clear to those who are are experienced at dmts generally to have positive intent and that means humility, respect, reverence, not those kind of slightly human typical characteristics of arrogance and thinking that we know more than we do going in there with the leaf that we're going to control the space, or that we know about the structure of the space, or that we have a good hand along and what these beings are, because
we don't, we don't really know. We can speculate, and I've done a lot of speculating on this topic, but ultimately we don't know. We're going there not really knowing what these beings are, where they're from, where they're located, you know, what is their origin or nature, what is our relationship to them, and they're hyperdimensional domain and that kind of thing.
So as long as you go there with that positive respect and reverence and humility, that can massively increase the probability that you're going to have a positive interaction. I think your working, Andrew, is so amazing simply because you are passing these subjects into a new dimension, a new reality, and they're coming back and reporting what they're experiencing with you, so that you begin to tell me if this is how it's working. You're developing a protocol that's constantly evolving
in the levels of these people who are achieving. Is that kind of the yes. I mean, the infusion technology is just the beginning. It's just the tool that we use. It's kind of like deep sea diving. I imagine, I kind of compare it to the difference between regular open water scuba and deep sea diving. Right, you don't shift from being an open water getting your open water license and then say I'm going to go deep sea diving
tomorrow. That requires a period, an extensive period of training and special equipment to keep you safe, right, to keep you alive at the bottom of the ocean. But that's not the purpose of the equipment is simply to keep you alive at the at these deep levels. But the ultimate aim is to explore deep down and to develop the tools and that the training for exploring and navigating these deep sea realms. While we're doing the same thing with DMT.
Now we have the technology. The DMTX infusion technology is just that, it's just a tool to allow the individual to be held within the DMT space. It opens up then an entire new field of research and an entire new world, literally, a vast, incomprehensively vast and complex alternate world that is opened up for much more thorough and detailed analysis and exploration and communication. You can think of one hundred different experiments or research projects it could be done having this
DMTX technology. Yeah, especially when you're communicating with beings of other dimensions and they're going, hey, what are you doing here? And by the way, here's some data and this is my world. Is it get to that exploration level? Absolutely? Yes, wonderful. Yeah. And people do describe
meeting the same entities in multiple sessions. So they will undergo an infusion session, establish communication with a particular entity, and then two weeks later when they come back for the next infusion, the same entity will be there and you're back. So it's it's not like you have to do everything with one entity in one session. You can establish a kind of relationship over time and meet the same entity every time you go back and continue where you left off.
So cool, it's so cool. Give us if you can a case, steady brief where someone went and met an entity at a dimension and what was presented to them. It was there details on the place they were at.
Yeah, So I mean there are many cases. I mean, in this most recent study in London Imperial we did an interview actually with some of the panelists with I co moderated it with with Graham Hancock and Rick Strasman, and they what's kind of a common experience is for the entities to want to they're very keen to show you things, like they want you to understand, but it's really difficult for people to understand what they're trying to tell them. So
they often were shown things. That's how they do it. They tend to communicate visually. So one of the participants described these entities. He was he found himself laid on his back, and there were several entities around him, like looked like a family of different ages, different sizes, and they were checking, first of all, if there was a chord at the back of
his head. They were checking if he was still, if you'd, you know, come here permanently into their space or whether that's that's the feeling he got. So they were checking for the cord, if there was a chord present. You know, it's kind of matrix stuff, matrix, right, And they were showing him they had these like tablets is the closest thing he could describe it with with symbols on, and they were showing him these tablets, you know, saying read this or try to understand this, But of
course we're not. We don't understand their language. We're just dipping our toes in the water here, and so he wasn't able to um, well we start right there. You said something quite interesting. I thought this was telepathy where they were telepathically presenting material, which is a very big alien graze whatever. Yeah, theme, but you're seeing that they're actually orally trying to com
it's not this combination. So telepathic communication is very common as well, so people understand they receive them the information directly through through telepathic communication, but they also often use visual visual objects. They will often present you with very strange, impossible objects, objects of impossible dimensionality that couldn't exist in this world, and say look at this, like they're trying to. They seem to enjoy
some of the entities. They seem to revel in having you there as a visitor, and they seem to recognize that time is limited, and so they will they will. They're all kind of rushing around, say look at this, look at this. Look everyone's trying to get your attention right, you know. So it's remarkable what do these beings look like? What do these beings look like? Well, they are as varied in their form as in their character, So there are certain motifs if you like, certain types of
entities that people commonly describe. The most famous residents of the DMT space are, of course, the machinels, as Mechanic called them. But these small, sprightly, mischievous, extremely lively, giggling, joyous little creatures have been described since the earliest studies in humans. So even in Stephen's area. This physician who discovered psychedelic properties of DMT in his very first study, a woman
described seeing these small creatures that moved around very, very quickly. Terrence mccanna gave them a name. Now they seem to they vary in their form, but they unified by their character, is how I like to describe it. So some people describe them as looking like elves. Some deep people describe them as little balls of light. I don't think the visual form is too important.
I don't believe that we we're seeing their true form. The brain is kind of trying to make sense and build a model of these of these these beings as it does in normal waking life. We don't really know the true form of anything in the environment. We just know that, you know how the brains, the model of the brain constructs, So the same thing is happening in the DMT space. Your brain is constructing a model of these beings.
So it will vary depending on the individual, depending on cultural influences, etc. But the character is always the same. It's always. They're always very lively, and they're very small, and they move around very very quickly, and they're always, you know, a little bit cheeky. You know. I love it. So I'm curious to know what the feeling that you the impression you get from these the people who are in these studies, how many dimensions are are possible? I think you give a hint that it's almost
infinity. But what would you say this first level? Perhaps this isn't and I want to I keep using the word evolution as a species, the human species. This is something that we have been doing rudimentary for perhaps thousands of years. And what you have and Straussmann and others are doing is forcing the issue by going into these dimensions and experiencing them and bringing back data, perhaps to make the next level more elegant. Yeah, a little better word.
I mean, I don't think we yet know how deep you can go or even the structure of the space or it's topology, it's topography, it's geometry. Are the distinct levels that you can reach reliably? We simply don't know yet. We know that the space seems to be higher dimensional, that's clear.
So people describe seeing objects that seeing all sides of objects at once, seeing objects that simply cannot that aren't just strange or complicated, but objects that are impossible, that cannot exist literally in at this lower dimensional, three dimensional plus time world that we live in, which strongly suggests to me that it is indeed a higher dimensional realm. It's light. Going from the old book flat Land Flatlanders, I think was called so it talks about, you know,
what would it look like if we occupied a two dimensional world. We would have no conception of a sphere or a cube. You might be able to think about it mathematically, but you couldn't visualize that a cube cannot exist in a two dimensional world. And in the same way, we can mathematically think about seven dimensional spaces and seven dimensional objects, hypercubes and things like that, but we can't visualize them we can't imagine what a seven dimensional object would
look like. We can't imagine what a four dimensional object would look like. So when you're confronted with such objects in impossible places of impossible geometry, it is confounding. It's like all of your or fundamental ontological assumptions, you know, everything you thought was possible and wasn't possible, had just been completely uprooted. It's like, Okay, I really didn't know anything. Like everything I
thought was true probably isn't true. Everything I thought was impossible turns out to be possible within this space, you know, And so it's not surprising, you know. Terrence McKenney used to say, the only risk with DMT is death by astonishment. That's that is seems to be the case. It is true. Astonishment is of quite a rare emotion. We are very rarely are we truly astonished. DMT is one of the few things that can reliably elicit
that true astonishment. I think, um, yeah, I'm gonna take a short commercial break here and give our sponsors and opportunity to identify themselves, and we will return with my guest today, doctor Andrew Gilmore, discussing his book Alien information Theory. We'll be right back. My guest today is doctor Andrew Gilmore who has written a book called Alien Information Theory, Psychedelic Drug Technology in the Cosmic Game, and he is looking at communicating with different beings in different
realities. What are the beans communicating with our brain in some form of projection? What do you suggest they are they? How are they giving information? Yeah? So the way I imagine it. So, the normal waking world that we live within is this model that's being constructed by the brain. It's a model of the environment constructed from without getting technical patterns of neural information.
A unified pattern of neural information. Is this model that your brain is constructing all the time that is informed and modulated and constrained by patterns of sense for information from the environment. It allows your brain to build a functional and adaptive and model of the environment. But the world you experience is always the model. What changes when you take DMPT is that model. Your brain starts constructing
this alternate model. And it's my belief that this is in the same way that the normal waking world is modulated by sensory information from the environment, you have this alternate and information source. The information is flowing. DMT gates the flow of information from this other domain into your brain so that your brain can construct a model of that alternate reality. Wow. Yeah, so that's what
you're doing. You're you're experiencing this alternate reality model that your brain is constructing, allowing your brain to receive information from the space and from the beings within the space. You're opening a whole new world to us, and it's been described by others, but I think you're modeling it in a way that I haven't heard before, which is fascinating because it's like, and I keep using this terminology, how do we evolve as a species? This is a way
to evolve. Perhaps the next step is not to use DMT, but maybe have these beans work with us to manipulate the brain in a way that we can meditate and shift into it. What do you suggest? Yeah, I think Terrence mccanna again, he used to talk about galactic citizenship. You know, I think we can leap frog over that and go directly to inter dimensional citizenship. We have access now to these domains, but there's so much that
we need to learn. We don't really know the constraints the rules governing our interaction with the space, whether or not it could be I mean I in
my talks, I often talk about evolving beyond the molecular technology. So beyond the idea of having to deliver exogenous drugs into someone's bloodstream, could actually use post molecular technologies manipulating the brain directly using magneto receptors, so receptors that are sensitive to magnetic fields, and directly, rather than using a drug a molecule to stimulate these receptors, use magnetic fields, using specially genetically engineered receptors that
sensitive to magnetic fields. So then you would put on some kind of cap with magnet surrounding it, and then going to this other reality would be a matter of flicking the switch and it will be instantaneous. You'll be there, wow, you know. And you could spend several days or weeks on an
expedition within that space whilst your body was maintained. So you'd also have you equipment delivering nutrient into your body, getting rid of waste products, stimulating your muscles to avoid muscle wasting, cooling the body slightly to reduce metabolic rate. All these kind of things that all these different technologies come together and it sounds like science fiction. It really does, and it is subject kind of of
science fiction. These pods, we've seen them in Alien and other movies and Matrix, right, but I think we actually are pretty close to having this kind of technology. NASA uses this, at least this kind of suspended animation technology of putting someone in a suspended state for these very long space journeys that take months, so they put them in a hypometabolic state. They feed them using intravenous They even deliver oxygen directly into the bloodstream. Now, so you
can gain repurpose that technology. I think with this either DMT technology or this most molecular technology, a way of becoming into dimensional citizen, being able to traverse and move through different worlds. And there might be many other worlds that were yet to discover beyond these DMT worlds, which is itself vast and complex, and the complexity and vastness of which we don't really understand yet, but they are likely to be countless other worlds that we can reach using our brain.
Our brain is this incredible world building world switching machine. You're showing that the brain is highly complex. Is it your belief that it's possible to bring back technology from these beans and actually apply it, or are we restricted to be only observers in these other dimensions. I don't think we're necessarily restricted. I think the issue is that we're talking about intelligences that are so far aren'ts, and that have actually transcended in a sense the physical form. They have
transcended biology, So they're so far ahead. It's like, how would how how do you translate the technology of a of a non physical HyperIntelligence and bring it and make use of it in our you know, wet brained, wet bodied world. It might be quite difficult, but certainly I think it's important to at least try to gather information, try to establish two way communication with these beings and and and learn from them and real quickly what I mean,
you're currently working in this in this protocol. What is the goal for these people who are experimenting in these programs? Well, the first thing, initially, it's as you would in any other when you find a new world. The first thing you do is is to explore, to begin to form maps of some sense, not ordinance survey maps, but these maps might be quite different. But at least trying to get a handle on on on the structure
and the geometry of the space. How how can one navigate the space, move through the space, establishing communication, two way communication with the entities, determining, you know, mapping the flora and fauna, so to speak of this this vast hyperdimensional ecology within this space. That's the first thing I don't think we we we humans, we have a tendency to kind of get ahead of ourselves a little bit, say we're going to do this, and then we're going to do this. Yeah, I want to see it all.
But I think we know so little about out this space and about the inhabitants of this space, that we have to accept that we know very very little and to go there with that full understanding. And that cultivates humility and respect because I take seriously the idea that these really could be intelligences that are vastly superior to anything we can even conceive of. We have no comprehension of the
level of intelligence that you can confront within the DMT space. So so for me, it's a very open ended It sounds like you're seeing you feel a responsibility for them to perhaps take it seriously as you're going to use the term tripping or experimenting and not jump all over the place. Have a goal before you actually enter this realm, right exactly, So, setting your intent is important for any psychedelic experience for sure, and no less important with the DMT
space. So yeah, setting your intent, and that could be at some point, setting your intent to established communication with a particular entity and attempting to learn and gather information and perhaps deliver information in real time back to the team waiting on the outside. You would have a number of people on the outside.
Mathematicians, anthropologists, linguists, cartographers, artists, philosophers, physicians, neuroscientists, pharmacologists, you know all of these people because that's what you need. You know this, We need people with all these different disciplines to make sense, to try and make sense of the information that's being delivered by the voyage, hopefully using some kind of device so they can they can deliver this information without necessarily having to speak, using some kind of Keep so cool,
you'll listening to you do this. I'm going, man, this is like space Odyssey present time. Is there a certain type of individual who handles this better than others? Some people, I mean when I was in high school, I was in a generation that started using LSD, And there are certain people who could take a tab and just be fine with it and take multiple tabs. I could never take it. I did a few drugs, but
I just I felt I would go nuts the acid. Is there a personality type or perhaps a physiology type if you can say that that takes this on and can actually experience these dimensions and bring back the data in a form that is usable, I think so. Well. First of all, about five percent of the population aren't affected by DMT at all, So I didn't. They're excluded. Yeah, so they're numb to it, they don't even they
don't experience any effects. So Rick Strasman noticed this in his study that about five percent of people who injected with even to the highest levels where they should have had a full breakthrough experience, they felt nothing. And also Terrence McKenna said the same thing anecdotally. And you get reports some people and people asking me advice saying, oh my god, I used all this DMTRP, I
wasted it all and not no effect. As well, it could be that you're one of the five percent, in which case you're out of Luck. Yeah, so that's certainly you exclude them, but I think really it's about experience. People who are experienced with old states of consciousness. Of course, often people who have some kind of meditative practice, who can stabilize their consciousness
and who can remain focused. These are all important. Being able to keep your wits about you, so to speak, is very difficult in the DMT space. So that's that comes with experience. I think. I don't think there's any particular personality type, perhaps, but certainly it's training, it's experience, being familiar with the space. All of the studies in this DMTX trial at Imperial College London were experienced DMT users. Obviously, you don't want to
be infusing someone who's never taken DMT before for thirty minutes. That would be a bit much. Is your goal in the future to find perhaps a group of experiencers what did McKinney columns, psycho knots or something like that, psychonauts. Yeah, that would be the tools for you to begin researching this dimension or multiple dimensions and bringing back significant data. That is the aim, yea, The aim is to bring back significant data. We don't really know what
form that data will take yet. I mean it could be for example, you might want to map the geometry of the space. We might want to understand how this space is structured. So the voyager might be bringing back or delivering in real time in simple information like the way that lines approach each other,
the kind of shapes that they see. All this to them is just reading, reading the patterns that they're seeing, let's say, delivering that back, and then mathematicians and geometers will plug this into some you know, it could be an artificial intelligence that would look at these say what kind of higher dimensional geometry but best matches the type of patterns that this person is describing. So you don't necessarily have to have you don't have to send in a gym,
you know, a topologist or a mathematician into the space. You just have someone who's very observant and can deliver the information back. And then you would have the team saying with the language, people can deliver back symbols that they're seeing that they're being presented with, and then the linguists get to work in trying to decide that it's like a Arrival. You've seen that movie Arrival? Oh yeah, yeah, So they had that weird circular language. Yeah,
that the window, Yeah exactly. Yeah, that was very cool. Yeah, so you know you it's that kind of problem and that you've you've got this language that well, let me just quickly, yeah, Andrew, wouldn't it be and I could be off the border on this one, wouldn't it be important to ask these beans to help us or those people to retain some knowledge, help them with their data, imprinting it in a way that it can come out when they return. Yeah, because especially these complex forms
and these these items that they're showing that are multidimensional. Yeah, but maybe there's an aspect of that that they can bring back if they're helped. Yeah. I think you've you've kind of touched on the perennial problem with the MT is that it recall is a huge problem. Is it bad? Even with relatively short trips, people often struggle to recall most people, some people are
very good at it. And there might be techniques, preparatory techniques or even other other molecules you can use that might enhance the recall, But ultimately I think we should work to dispense with the need for recall. This is why I talk about this real time flow of information about communicating with the team on the other side in real times as it's happening, so you don't have to
remember. So if you're you know, if you have a ninety minute infusion with the best memory in the world, you're not going to remember all the details. You might remember the narrative kind of overall what happened, and that's what we see with DMTX as we see more narrative structure, so it's not just a series of visions, but you're seeing the experience evolve, the interactions with the entities evolve and change over time, so there seems more of a
narrative structure, and that part seems to be quite easy to recall. But small details about the structure of the space and the message is in the symbols that's much more difficult to recall and kind of draw or right afterwards. So this is why we need the technology for real time delivery of information. Yeah,
I hear what you're saying. It's like it should be like an autonomic reaction to the experience or the body is automatically, so you'd have to train to somebody with the body exact typing the data or you create a computer, that button is a symbol of some kind precisely. Wow. The book's called Alien Information Theory, psychondelic drug Technologies, and the Cosmic Game. I guess has been Doctor Andrew Gilmour, give us your projection of the next decade,
what you see evolving in your practice. Yeah, well, it's hard to say. It's hard to say what's going to happen in the next year. Clearly, the evolution the development of our civilation. Civilization is not a linear things. We seem to be perhaps at the beginning of this, this exponential rise. So I think the first thing that we need to do is kind of established definitively that we are dealing with an advanced intelligence. Then where do
we go from there? Then we truly are looking at into dimensional citizenship. We are looking to a future where we are citizens residents of more than one world, and that we might spend part of our lives in this prosaic, lower dimensional, mundane world and part of our lives journeying. So instead of going on vacation to Palm Springs, the rich and famous will be going on
vacation to the DNC worlds. Amazing, do you actually see the possibilities of these experiencers like into some kind of I mean, would this something be something that you would work with a team and develop perhaps a cubicle or a place where you could relax, get infused and experience for a couple of hours.
For sure, that's the aim. Yes, this kind of matrix machine if you like, where you can input your journey time, lay down, input your journey time, maybe even your particular location within the space, and lie back and relax and it will take you there. Now, the next question I have real quickly is who's funding this and do you need to go fund me page because this can be extremely expensive and also probably legally in America under
a university's banner. Right, Yes, so currently the it's funded through the normal kind of university channels. So the funding body is that fund this kind of basic research into psychedelics. There's the group in Boulder, Colorado, DMTX. You can find them at dmtx dot org. They are funded by a or financed by a group called New Nautics NBLO n A U t i CS New Nautics and they are a nonprofit, a registered nonprofit in the United States,
and they are gathering funds. So if anyone wants to contribute financially or provide financial support to this whole program, then go to New Nautics dot org and you can do it. Excellent. How can people learn more about you? Why don't you give us your website and any contact information? Yes, so the first port of call is always my website, alien insect dot net. There you can find links to my books, my podcast, interviews and
papers I've written that kind of thing. I post regularly on Twitter. Again, my handle is alien insect. I post regularly on the I have a substack, alien insect on Drugs, which you can also sign up for gained links on my website. Yeah, I think that's great. One final question. We're here at Contact in the desert. There's a great deal of speculation about UAPs, UFOs, alien abductions and so forth and so on. There's
any of that reality bleed into what you're reporting in these DMT sessions. Absolutely, I think kind of uthology has progressed massively. I was very pleasantly surprised to hear people talking a lot less about physical, wet brained aliens, but more about the possibility that it could be this post biological intelligences that have transcended the physical form, that transcended their biology. And it's those type of intelligences
that I think we're communicating within a DMT state. So, and John mac as well, you know, he towards the end of his tragically cut short life, he was he started to realize that these weren't exclusively people being lifted from their beds by physical aliens, but it seemed to be some kind of non physical interaction with an intelligence that transcended space and time in some way that
existed elsewhere. And so I think there is kind of behind it, or perhaps a unity there that we are only just beginning to realize now, and that when we talk about aliens see aliens, we're not necessarily talking about physical being, but that we're seeing something far stranger than that. And I think DMT provides direct, reliable access to these kind of advanced alien intelligence. Have they asked, have they during some of these sessions, have they actually reported
that, Yes, we are in vehicles orbiting and surveying your planet. So it's interesting. So Paul Heinuch, he will know, of course, he asked this question. Was in his lecture yesterday? Was he actually asked one of the entities that question, and they said, we couldn't explain in a way that you would understand. So I think we have to be aware that maybe we were not equipped to quite see how it all fits together. Yet
perhaps we'll get there at some point in the future. Andrew Gillmore, amazing, wonderful to have you, and we're going to have to have you back. Thank you, thank you very much. There's a great deal more in his book Alien Information Theory that proposes different ways to bring the data back.
And did you ever see the movie with Jodie Foster called Contact, when they the Aliens send across, sent across schematics for a machine, and a consortium of countries build a machine so they can send a pilot or a representative to
this a different quadrant of the universe to meet with the aliens. This is kind of the situation I'm thinking of, of course, in Contact, that movie, the data came across as radio waves or yeah, radio waves that were picked up by a big dish satellite dish, and then they downloaded it and were able to build the machine. They actually built two in that movie. First one is Destroyed, really good movie. If you don't have that
movie. By the way, that movie is based on Carl Sagan's book Contact, And it's funny because here we are Carl Sagan is a very anti UFO, anti alien phenomenon later in his years when he was a young man, when he was first coming up, it was very open to would you believe the face on Mars. In fact, there's a number of stories of him talking with Hoglan and Carlodo, and I think we even heard John Brandenburg.
Doctor Brandenberg mentioned that he had some conversations and some exchanges of data with Carl Sagan. But in this case, this is the same kind of thing where the pilot or the experiencer, and this would have to be a very unique experiencer who can tame data, would would type data down and maybe working with this race together, they could invent some kind of teleprompter or computer with a keyboard where the keys are symbols or scientific theorems or something where the data would
get across from one reality or one dimension to the other. And this is why I think that this DMT study that doctor Gilmore's doing is really the next step from what Strassman was doing and is far exceeds far further than anything that anyone else is doing on an individual level just taking ayahuasca. Now, that doesn't mean that ayahuasca sessions are not valid. And if you don't have visionary from Graham Hancock, get that book because he described ties in great detail his
experience during ayahuasca. You can also just type in ayahuasca experience and you can read from a number of people. Even Annual Pinchbeck, who we've had on the show, Prolific writer, He has described his experiences using DMT using ayahuasca. So this is another step. And so can you imagine for just a moment the potential to bring in schematics for new kinds of machines, new kinds of devices. No, we're polluting and destroying our environment in the ecosystem.
If we had some new vehicles, airplanes or anything that's using currently reliant on fossil fuels, that we could move beyond that. And so that's the tip of the iceberg. Could you imagine, you know, I'm always thinking about Fountain of the Youth kind of apparatus is that, you know, we're always trying to live longer. What't would be great if they had some kind of a chamber that you walk into and you add fifty years to your life disease
free or the big one. Oh my god, I'm machine that eradicates degenerative diseases, MS, cancer, rheumatoid arthritis, specific types of diseases that are wasting. Can think of many, many, many, but you kind of get the point. So this is something really with great potential, and he is looking I think we mentioned he mentioned at the end he's looking for funding. You can check out his website, but read his book Alien Information Theory
to get a sense of what he is striving for. Now, I will i'll also that you look at his YouTube channel or just type in Andrew doctor Andrew Gilmour or Alien Information Theory. His lectures that go on for two or three hours are very complex, and we're talking about brain patterns and ways to
use DMT that are beneficial for a lot of people. And perhaps one of the thoughts that he proposes is not using a psychedelic but having the aliens or the entities or the dimensional beings help us shift our brain through a meditator process that accentuates our ability to move into these other realities. Because we do this more in one another really deep state. I kind of lose track of time now I'm not I don't know if I'm going into another reality or not.
They can't they get tests for that, But sometimes it feels like I've I've lost like the whole time I'm in meditation, and I meditate twice a day for about twenty minutes. Wouldn't it be amazing if our off roll types or these beings in this other dimension were able to help us access Now remember here, we're going into the whole Akashic record database that many of our guests have
spoken about. And my god, well it's good and bad because I think people like Nikolai Tesla were able to get into the Akashic records and download machines that were just too far ahead of too new and too revolutionary. The biggest example is the Warncliff Tower upstate New York, which was producing free energy in the environment, and his idea was to have cars, planes, boats, moving vehicles that were powered by this and not just vehicles, homes, factors
and everything. Our reliance on electricity would be completely over. What kind of revolution is that? Now? Warrencliff never happened. In fact, we're going to have Mark Seaffort on the program, who's an expert on Tesla. In a couple of weeks he says the same thing. He believes that the Warncliffe Tower produced by Tesla, it was too advanced and to Tesla, as far as we know, the great genius pulled through and developed machines in his mind.
We'll talk about that, lad. So lots of thing about again alien information theory. He wrote and co published that book, and the illustrations in that book are kind of weird and it makes it a little challenging to read because he's got strange graphs and colors and stuff in it. But he's a real free thinker. He's very, very fun to speak with. And I love this kind of an interview simply because it gives us a chance to look
at our future. These kinds of studies, these kinds of research projects and experimentation with consciousness are very important for us because we learn about our mind, we learn about those realities around us, and critically important, we know that we're not the only ones in our cosmos. Now, I'm not going to get into the whole alien thing, because you've heard me talk about this off and on forever. So the bottom line is this is very very important work
and I do hope you enjoyed that interview. By the way, I published a new article in the Ancient Origins magazine. You can see it on Earth Ancients Facebook page. To go to Facebook, go to Earth Ancients either the group page or the international page. It's a quick study I did of a statue. It's the Kefren statue in the Museum Cairo Museum in downtown Cairo.
Muhammed presented us with a close up look at it, and the article goes into the possibilities of it being a machine machine sculpture and in the same lines that Chris Dunn suggests that the Ramsey two sculptures and many others at Karnak and lux are as well as the Museum in Cairo have these statues that are machined using some kind of die cutting technology. Muhammed suggested that, so I went
ahead and did some analysis. It really looks like Friend placed his cartouche on this statue at the bottom of this beautifully elegant, high styled doorrite sculpture of him. But it's not him, it's someone else. And it's funny because we see this with a lot of these pharaohs who think their gods and can do anything they want. I actually say that too. It's graffiti. They
just scratched the guy Cufu's cartouche on the bottom of this statue. This elegant, world class one of a kind, beautiful sculptures that was found near the pyramid, and it kind of it doesn't really look at him. Because we don't have a lot of examples of Kefren's. The Greeks called them keefrin the
Keffrin's image. We have two examples that I show in this article, and both of them don't look anything like this amazing sculpture, the Storrite sculpture that is in So check out the article, see my analysis, look at the photographs. The article is called the Brilliance of Prediluvian Sculpture. It's on Earth Ancients. It's the article. You can see it both in the group page and the international page of Facebook. So check that out see if you think
if you're a fan of ancient origins. I think the article is coming out in a week, oh me a week, but sometimes it takes longer. It's not producing the United States. I think it's produced in South America, so things take a little bit longer there. Anyhow, I'm fascinated. I have so much that's kind of bubbling out of my trip to Egypt, and wow, it's fantastic. By the way, we have now are launching our
twenty twenty four trip. It's gonna be April twenty eighth through May nine of twenty twenty four, and the itinerary is up if you want to go to Earth Ancients dot com or slash Tours t O u r S. We're not making a big deal of it right now. We're just letting people know that it's available. It's funny because we already have ten people that signed up that
have been waiting for this tour, and I can't blame them. It's it's really quite astonishing what we see, what we experience, and just the environment of these ancient temples is really a lot and every time we go there there's something new that's happened. Like we just found out that this the Great Pyramid has all these new channels and tunnels and rooms and walkways. Let's hope by next May when we go to have our private visits, some of the other
areas are have been identified, so that'd be really cool. So if you want to come with us to Egypt in twenty twenty four, excuse me, it's April twenty eighth through May ninth, twenty twenty four. The whole light Terrary is at ancients dot com Forward slash Tours. It's a blast, it's gonna be fun. I'm hoping to mention our Turkey tour. We're kind of sitting on that a little bit. We're having some issues with some of the hotels, but that is looking like you know, and I was hoping for
this year. This year is we're already at the halfway point. So I think Turkey is going to be spring or fall twenty twenty four, and we'll talk about that. I want to go to Turkey really bad because there's new discoveries. Of course, there's you know, go Backley Teppi, Carahan Teppi, which has these amazing pillars we had for people talking about this this new site. So Earth Ancients Tours always if you're wanting to check out our tours,
always go to earth Ancients dot com forward slash tours. By the way, if you have any questions about any of our tours or anything in general, like, hey, Cliff, I really like this person, but I really didn't get it. Is there a book? Is there something else? You can write to me at Earth Ancients for you the number four, the letter you at gmail dot com. Earth Ancients for you at gmail dot com. Let me know what's your thoughts, if you want information on a tour,
whatever you need, I'll do what I can for you. I just love the fact you're listening. All right, Okay, that's it for today's program. I want to thank my guest today, doctor Andrew Gilmore, that was recorded at the Contact in the Desert conference this past May a few weeks ago, and as always the team of Ruth Thomas and Mark Foster, thank you for your help and you rock. You do, you really do rock. All right, take care of be well and we will talk to you next time. I ass