Thank you, thank you very much, thank you, thank you very much. I really appreciate the thoughts and the roundom applause.
That's very nice.
A few days ago we received notice that Earth Ancients had won Best Ancient History Podcast by the Parapod Events of Los Angeles. And it's always nice to be remembered and thought about. And we were up against hundreds of people, and you know, I didn't even put a submission and they just called me up and said, hey, Cliff, Earth Ancients is a good deal, it's a good podcast and we like to recognize you. And I was like wow, and of course, you know, I mean, you go about
your business and you don't think about it. But I guess we're a form of entertainment. Entertainment. So thanks to Parapod and I really appreciate it. You can see the award on the Facebook page go to Cliff dunning my profile, or go to Earth Ancients International, which is the public page or the private pages they're posted there. I do want to mention that it's just not me alone. There's a lot of work that goes into this thing. And
I also want to thank our producer, Gail Tour. She has been working diligently to pull together really good material, not only for Earth Ancients, but for Destiny and also the special edition Earth Ancient Special Edition, sometimes from the archives. But lately we've been really just pushing and promoting new voices and that's a lot of fun. Also Mark Foster, who is a researcher and also the designer for all
our banners and fais Ol Parvey. He is our YouTube channel producer and he is coming to us from Pakistan. And by the way, Mark Foster's in London, England. So this is what I really love. I love the eclectic environment that we have here at Earth Ancients. I love the fact that everybody's all over the planet. It's just a great vibe. And again thanks to Parapod for the award. It's always nice to be Hey, we have a good
show today. Chris dun is back and we're talking about ancient machining, I should say, we're talking about advanced machining in ancient Egypt. And it's really becoming quite obvious that the Dynastics the Pharonic period of Egypt are not the builders of the pyramids, obviously, but not only that, it's looking like many of the buildings were repurposed. And what this means is that they were survivors the Pharonic period.
Our survivals if you remember a few, I think it was about a year ago we had Karacooni on the show who wrote a book on recycled death. It's called Recycle for Death, and she spent an entire four hundred page book describing how these various periods, the Old, Middle and New Kingdom of the Pharonic period, they were reusing each other's burial goods, and they were reusing each other's jewelry and clothing. And it's not a very good picture.
It's kind of a sad, depressing picture when you realize that these guys weren't as dynamic as we all think they were. And this kind of bleeds into and moves us into pharaohs like Ramsey the Second, who turns out to be this narcissistic, egotistical pharaoh who's literally asking his artists to erase the names of previous pharaohs and kings and rulers and putting his name his cartouche on literally
hundreds of sculptures. And we're going to talk about this today with Chris is there's a very famous sculpture that was cut from a probably about a two hundred and fifty to three hundred ton block of granite. It's in the Memphis this Museum in Egypt, and this considered Ramses
the second. But what we're discovering is it has nothing to do with Ramseys, It has nothing to do with his period of rule, and it has everything to do with the previous people who were these genius, technologically advanced people who carved this sculpture. I was so blown away by this sculpture when I first saw it a few years ago that I was like, this is out of this planet. It's so well done. It's a monster. It's
forty feet tall, almost forty feet tall. It's thirty seven point seven or eight or something, but it's huge, and it's so elegantly carved the face, the arms, the chest, the legs, and you have to see it. I have a whole group of photographs that I will post on the Facebook page. You'll also be able to see him on the YouTube channel if you watch Chris and My interview.
But this is something that is coming to light more and more and more, and I think the Egyptological community has to pay more attention to the fact that this is not something just to consider as a rare occurrence. These statues have all the same space, style, all the same. We're talking about Ramseys too, And by the way, they're available. You can see them at Karnak, you can see them at Lukxer, you can see them in Valley of the Kings.
These sculptures all look the same, their machine all the same, and they all have this strange smile. And what we're beginning to and we'll hear about this today, what we're beginning to discern is that it was almost like a image of man. This was the ideal man, this gorgeous statue that is all over the place, and it's not Ramsey's face.
We don't know really what was.
Going on during the reign of Ramsey's a second, there is some writing, but it's looking more and more like he's just claiming hundreds of artifacts and also temples and.
Buildings. So this is really something we have to pay attention to.
I'm going to have Robert Shock on the program with his wife Katie in a couple of weeks, and they have some startling new discoveries uncovering temples, pyramids and buildings that were protected prior to the great catastrophic event that befell the entire Earth. And you know, when we talk to people like Randall Carlson and and Mark Young and others who are catastrophists and also very much in line with this nine thy five hundred BC event, we have to be very plain about it and just basically say
what it is. It was a terminating event. I don't think Randall says it's eighty percent death rate, but it's very, very high, and it was so devastating that when we look at Egypt, when we look at Middle America or meso America, which are the Maya, probably the Chinese, there were very few survivors and the vast majority of minds
and scientists and engineers were killed. And so when we look at these temples, we had to consider them as the relics of this predynastic, advanced culture likely to have come from all over the planet, but specifically from a place known as Atlantis. So today's program is advanced machining in ancient Egypt. And my guest is Chris Dunn. So much in the news lately the SARS team scanning the pyramid. There are bits and pieces coming out about both the
Caffrey and the Cufu pyramids. I've been talking on the show about these megalithic sculptures and just how in the hell they were cut because of their monstrosities. They look fake to me, they look artificially cut to me, and there's so much more. I've been wanting to touch base with it. It's time to bring back Chris Dunn on the program. It's been a couple of years that we've
had him on the show. If you're not familiar with Chris Dunn, he is kind of the godfather of the whole machine movement, the advanced science, the Advanced machining, and Ancient Egypt. Wrote three books. The most famous that I would think of, the most well researched and referenced, is The Lost Technologies of Ancient Egypt. He also wrote a book called The Giza power Plant. His most recent book is Giza The Tesla Connection, and that's came out a couple of years ago. So Chris, good to see you.
Welcome back to Earth.
Ancients. How you doing.
I'm doing okay, Cliff, how are you doing.
I'm doing fantastic. I got you on the show. I'm gonna be able to work you over a little bit, ask you those YEA, yeah, but I'm a friendly face. I'm totally on your side and totally believe what you have written is the real McCoy. And I'm curious on your take on this. Stars a synthetic aperture radar scan that the team in Italy put together.
We had all of.
Them on the show a few months ago, Felipo Bioni and Armando may Corianda Malanga was also no, he was not on the show. He didn't speak English, so we had two out of the three. But I'm curious when you see these scans, Chris, and they're purported to go deep, deep under the ground. What what's your feeling on that?
Ye? Well, I actually went through different phases of feelings about it, right the first My first was, oh no, that can't be right. And the one thing that really put me off the first time was the the the CAD drawings that were were extracted out of the out of the raw data, and I didn't quite understand how they could extract such clean cat drawings out of it. I mean, but I'm not the expert. And as I said I wrote, people were pushing me and saying you
need to you need to talk. People want to know what you what you think about this, because you know this the potential to really support your theory on the on the Great Pyramid or the other pyramids. And I was like, well, okay, I'll respond, And so I responded and posted on Facebook and I also have that on my website zapower dot com. But my response was essentially non committal. At first. I was like, I'm not an expert. I'm not qualified to say whether this right or wrong.
I know that there are elements here the overlapp with what I have written, and one particular was going back to my third book Giz of the Tesla Connection, and I am examining the the work of John Cadman and the the pump the post generator being in the in the subterranean chamber under the Great Pyramid, and not finding an outlet for that, I resorted to my original idea in the Gezer Popland that perhaps it was some kind of Tesla earthquake machine, an oscillator that caused the vibrations
to be forced into the pyramid and also into the earth. Uh. But then I commented that with with the knowledge that there are the Giza Plaza is riddled with the shafts and tunnels. It seems that there is the possibility is that they there is what I call the big, big Daddy of post generators is actually under the Giza Plateau, deep under the Giza Plateau. So that's what I wrote
at the time. Uh. And these chefs seem to kind of lean towards support for what I had written in the in Geezer the Tesla connection, though I was still conservative in my in my response, and and I just said, well, I think that just the raw data, we'll just look at the raw scans, that is sufficient to me to warrant further exploration and hopefully you know, be able to
physically access that site. And and I think now that they are there is a movement happening in Egypt where they're going to start cleaning out one of the chefs on the on the Giza Plateau. And so hopefully you know, by the time you and I are there next year, uh, you in April, May and March, they may have found something. But since then, very interesting developments. I got a call from you know, my new Safe to day. Have you talked to him? Sure on the show. Yeah, yeah, he's
a great guy. So he calls me up and he said, hey, you know, I have been working on this, uh the Sarascans, and and I think you need to take a closer look at at this because there is a correlation between the Giza power plant and the the size of these chefs, okay. And so he went through it with me, and basically what we have is a shaft or a column going down deep into the earth. It's about six hundred and forty eight meters deep.
Is this the Caffre or the Cufu Pyramid?
Well, it's Caffre, right, But there's also we have the same thing under the Great Pyramid, Kufu's pyramid now and I think the same the same depth, the same diameter columns exists under that one too. So what okay, So what is significant about it? If you if you look at the the columns going on going deep into the earth, you have a like an organ pipe, okay. And the organ pipe has a particular fundamental free andy and that fundamental frequency is a harmonic of the frequency of the
ascending passage in the Great Pyramid. And so those two actually coupling together and functioning is kind of like, you know, a musical instrument where you have all these different parts that are playing and it gets really gets really loud really quickly. But the significance of why it's that deep is what it's really important to me. And it's not
necessarily so much that, yes, the harmonics is one thing. Yes, to have features that are served as a pulse generator underneath the pyramids, that kind of supports the whole concept of the Geezer power plant. M But the fact that they they reached through the sedimentary layer of limestone and then into the igneous rock, probably another two hundred meters into the igneous rock, which is remarkable, uh remarkable feed
of engineering for one thing. But you know, when you consider what else the ancient Egyptians did, you know, to find something like this is mildly surprising when you consider what's on top, right, the Great Pyramids, the pyramids themselves, but we're used to those, right, It's like there's no surprise here. Yeah, they've been there forever and now we've got these huge shafts reaching down into the earth. So
what's so significant about them being embedded in the igneous rock? Well, you go back to we go to Freedom and Freund's research on earthquake lights and the underlying physics behind earthquake lights. And basically what he proposes that igneous rock, the minerals in igneous rock have these peroxy defaults that create positive charge carriers that if they're expressed, then those peeholes are positive charge carriers will shoot to the surface and they'll
ionize in the air and create earthquake lights. So essentially what he's done is pointing a way to a source of electrons right under our feet. And he actually states that the Earth is just a huge battery. You know, it's a potential battery. All you need to do is rest the rock and you've got a source of electricity. And the ancient Egyptians and now I'm convinced Egyptian we're tapping into that. That that that physics that the Freud described.
But Freund didn't just speculate, it didn't just you know, put out a theory on the paper. In terms of, you know, working the math and the physics. He did laboratory experiments on different different rocks, and he took a granite beam and put it in a hydraulic press and pressed down on one end and electrons flowed from one end to the other when it was under pressure. So
he essentially proved out his theory. And so now you're asking the question why are those shafts going so deep, because they're actually going where the source of the electricity is to stimulate it out of than driving a pulse through hundreds of meat is limestone in order for it to tickle the granite, so to speak, it will be just they don't want to just tickle the granite, oh, the the igneous rock. They want to hammer it real hard.
Yeah.
When you look at the.
The renderings, though, I mean I think in I see two shafts, and there's staircases around the outer perimeter of these shafts, And I'm like, is that taking license and creating those or do you think they actually have staircases that go all the way down to the bottom of this thing? Because there's two and then there's two big rooms at the very bottom. And I you know, you're looking at a a scan, a star scan, and of course it's the it's the operator who's who's rendering this
in three D according to some pattern. I mean, how accurate do you think that is?
Yeah? I don't know. You see, that's it. I'm all. I'm all about getting physical measurements, you know, rather than than you know, taking that taking that data from like a point cloud. I mean you take a point cloud like the point cloud of the the scan Pyramid mission. Whether they did the muography, they detected that large void above the Grand Gallery, I mean that is very very low resolution, very rough. I mean, you couldn't really define what kind of shape is there. We just know that
there is a void there. They can't even tell if it's not an angle or not. So you know, uh, I think it does require having physical access to inspect it before being sure of what you got. But you mentioned the spirals, and I was puzzled by that too, And basically I opened up a chat with AI and started feeling information into AI. And this is what man who was safe today had been doing, right, He had opened up a chat with AI and he was inquiring
a PI all these features and putting them together. Yeah, and I was like really confirming the whole relationship between what is under the pyramids and the pyramids themselves. So I opened up a chat with AI and started to inquire about the purpose of spirals and I should qualify before I continue on that along that thought I did. I was at a conference in Chicago with Filipo, Beyondy and and Amanda May and Trevor I see in September.
And it was actually sitting down with them and talking to them and and and actually receiving more information from Filipo and examine him more closely his his scans that I became convinced that what he had was was correct or close correct. I mean, I don't know what you would call precise in terms of measurements. If he's within an inch, I would say that would be pretty precise. But the as far as the spirals go, and what I saw, but he showed me uh uh yeah, I
became a believer in totally. And and it's it's like right now, I can't It's like I can't, I can't imagine the I can't imagine the system. I've called him this the whole system. It's not just a great pyramid. It's Caffres pyramid, Mankarah all the way down to the sphinx. That's got one right. But I kind of imagine the system functioning without these chefs, without these columns.
So it proves your theory of energy production. Is what you're suggesting is that these gonna I just call them introls because that's what they look like to me.
Even though there are shafts, it's more like.
You know, they're part of this machinery, right that is being uh defined in these not only your theories, but also in these scans.
Did you have a chance to look at.
The CUFU scans of twenty twenty two and the three three D rendering of all the shafts and rooms, and yeah.
I kind of tuned that one out because it was really too good, you know, it's like and too radically different from what we knew about. And then also knowing that they had the mooography scanning going on before then with nothing like that being being detected, that kind of raised a bit of a red flag for me. Now I am like, I'm not totally against it, but I would wait for the proof really before all of that,
all of that that precise geometry is correct. Yeah, you know, be hard, It be hard to be how to say, yeah, to say that right now? I can't say that right now. And similarly, I mean they he's also detected like five kings chamber of complexes inside Cafris pyramid, you know, the another one, the multi a granite beams above it. Yeah, and that was surprising to me, and I was like, whoa uh, because you consider that that that information is
a shock to my system. Yeah, imagine what a shock it is to zaihuas well.
He doesn't he doesn't acknowledge anything. He just the few this is hogwash. I mean that's his I don't know, Yeah, I mean that's his.
That's his usual go too yeah, and has been forever forever. I don't know him to be any different. So he was that way with the Carbon fourteen, he was that way with the Scam Pyramid mission, is that way with the sascan.
So, you know, I think he embarrassed himself on the Joe Rogan program when he said he questioned what is as a zep teppy? He didn't know what that was, and he didn't know what go Beckley tepp he was. And I think people were shocked that he was. So I don't know if he forgot or he just wasn't part of his vernacular.
Well know, he knew. I think he knew what go Beckley tep he was. I mean I thought that he had commented on that way back when it was first discovered. But you know, well he and I about the same age, so I can forgive a certain amount of forgetfulness.
Yeah, I.
One thing and then we're going to move on one thing about the stars technology that I didn't realize, and I was shocked. I had a retired special Ops service men call and not come. He emailed me and said that the service that the military was using these scans and had been for decades.
Yeah yeah, I mean, and Filipo had been using them on various installations around around the world. So yeah, and in Italy, so that you know, it's not like he didn't He was an amateur. He didn't know what he was doing. All that the technology had not been qualified.
Well, I mean, we must be under top secret level types of usage. You know, no one really knows about it. And maybe SARS exposed the military's use.
Of it, you know, I don't know. Well, it suddenly exploded across the planet like a wildfire, didn't it. Totally amazing, talk about a fading frenzy.
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my guest today, Chris Dunn, discussing advanced machining in ancient Egypt. Will be right back. The articles we're discussing on this podcast are available on Chris don dot com, his website as well as Earthagents dot com, and you
also can find them on our Facebook page. I'll post two of the most important articles, one dealing with the synthetic aperture radar question, and also a couple of others having to do with the Ramsey sculpture. Talk real quickly about what you think the future holds for the star scan. I don't see the Antiquities Department spending a lot of time looking for shafts in new rooms and deep under. They don't have the technology to start digging, and it
feels like it they wouldn't allow that to happen. But what do you what do you think the future holds for the analysis that the stars scans presents.
Uh? Yeah, I think it's going to take a long time. That you know, because I think you have you have the technology, the science, and then you have the politics and so you know, sometimes dealing with the science and the and the math is the easiest part. But they but the politics is a little more tender and sensitive. So I would say that over time, I mean, there
are young, younger Egyptologists coming up. There are young engineers who are now studying the the antiquities with the same kind of perspective that you and I have on them. And uh and you know, I mean our friend Muhammad has been carrying the torch now for quite a few
years and does a great job. Yeah. Oh, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, there's a a ground swell of interest in Egypt and throughout the Arabic world on the on the heritage of that of that area of the world, because they're now waking up to the fact that their history needs to be rewritten. Yeah, not by Westerners this time. Yeah.
So you're you're probably have prophesied correctly, Chris when you're saying that it's probably going to be fifty or a couple of generations away from really digging in deep and getting the permissions, which is what has to happen to dig underneath the Giza plateau.
Right, Well, it's not going to be in my lifetime. I don't think the you know, the when I look when I look at it, Yeah, I look at it from a kind of like a ten thousand foot view. It's I came along and published Advanced Machining in Ancient Egypt one hundred years after William Flynno's Petrie published and Temples of Visa.
That's hope. It's not going to be one hundred years.
God, so it could be one hundred years, my friend.
No, I don't want to hear that. I'm hoping that we.
No, no, no, I think that you know, the cats Flinders Peachey was definitely constrained in his writing. I mean for obvious reasons. I mean, the the culture at that time, and it wouldn't have allowed him to have the same kind of freedom that I have had to you know, publish my thoughts. Right. In fact, you know, the Geezer
Power Planet barely got published. If it wasn't for Barbara han Klow, who were believed in it, they wouldn't have been published because her everybody at Baron Company were going, you've got to be crazy published book.
I'm so glad that she did.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
I interviewed a each of timelogists about two years ago. Her name is Karacuney. She is a professor at UCLA down southern California. She wrote a book called Recycling for Dead, And what was as absolutely fascinating about this book is that Egyptologists have begun to understand that recycling and repurposing and reusing temples, death masks, entire burial sites. It was the norm during the Faronic period, Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom,
Late Kingdom. And one of the things that I didn't realize is that they also understood that Ramses the Second, who was known as the Great Usurper, who was constantly reusing things, wasn't the only one who was reusing pyramids and statuary and other items for their dynasties. And the point I'm trying to make here is that these guys, I'm really beginning to think and want your opinion about that,
that they weren't so great. After all, they didn't have the brilliant engineers and scientists and whatever they inherited it a great deal of it. We'll talk about the statuary in a minute, but I'm curious, after you've written your books, do we have a better sense of the pre dynastic people. Do we have a better sense of I mean, you show us how brilliant they were in constructing the pyramids and making them generators. But have you come any closer
to an understanding of just who these people were. We know that their science base is on earth energies, but I mean, these guys are completely unique. They're nothing close to who we are today or who the pharaohs in the Furonic period was.
Right, Well, yeah, I that's hard to say. I mean, you know, when you look back sixty seventy years and you see the culture and the way it was functioning. Then if you had presented them with a view into the future where we're living and how we're operating, what we look like and yeah, walking around with our cell phones and they it will be foreign to them, right, Who are these people? Who are they? Who are these people? And yeah, I'm looking back, you know, into the forties
and fifties, it's totally different culture. But to your point, I'm I've always been pretty much on solid ground in terms of uh, my thinking gone, who these people were? And well, it's hard to know what any individual is thinking, what their belief systems are, or you know, what they carrying around in their head most of the day. Though these days, sadly we find out what was on their
minds if we log into X or Facebook. But that's another matter, right, But the but the the issue for me is not necessarily you know, what their religion was or what they they believed in, but about the afterlife. But there's one aspect of the thinking is is very very clear. They were thinking like engineers and they are working within with three dimensional materials, shaping them with the HUT to a high level of precision, and that requires
certain skills and tools in order to accomplish that. So at least we know that it's unambiguous, regardless of what an archaeologist might tell you, it's unambiguous the fact that they had access to sophisticated machinery. And you know, the question is to what level if we compare our machines today to the machines that were I was operating sixty years ago, then there's a big difference, you know, because of the advances in computer science and computer numerical control
machines and stuff like that. We didn't have anything back then. So I know today that's very popular to say, well, you know it, take for instance, the bases, the pre dynastic bases that show this remarkable accuracy and precision and geometry they have you have modern machinist too. It was only concept of doing any of any work similar to that would be a CNC machine. And so you'll you'll read people who are arguing, no, it had to be CNC, you couldn't do that manually. But I was a manual
machinists for many years. In fact, I was a journeyman later and I can and I made parts that you know, you would run on a machine CNC machine today. But back when I was working in the shops, it was like we used three dimensional profiling equipment that worked tough of models or templates and those were Keller machines and UH true trace hydraulic tracing equipment and even manual tracing equipment. So as far as the culture in terms of UH what else, what what did these engineers do when they
went home right after they had what? What did? What? What did they have access to? Uh? And we can only leave that to our to our imagination, because I think most of the most of the material gods that have not survived over the millennia, and you know we are talking millennium going back thousands and thousands of years, and so archaeologists are now studying the remains of more recent settlements, I think, and.
Which is kind of boring if you ask me, It's like digging up wooden coffins.
Is this is big?
This is Aahi Hawas's big claim of famous publishing Sakara coffin and the wood paintings are so boring to me.
Well, you know, I could not I could not be an archaeologist. You know, I don't have I don't have the patience to do the the and so and it's is it's not as uh, it's ambiguous, and I think, and it's open to interpretation. In fact, I was reading an article about the Pompeii and the the analysis of Pompeii and the you know, the the plaster forms where they went in and they filled these cavities and then relieve them, and they shows.
How the people, oh, how the people died during the earthquake, the volcanic eruption.
Of volcanic eruption right right, And I found it fascinating. And that the the narrator was talking about how introducing how using AI to interpret the evidence, we uh revealed the more accurate result because they didn't have that human kind of prejudice or you know somebody who is a good point I'd been taught one way and is they're going to interpret something along those lines, and it's a
little more nuanced. And AI is looking at a wider database, is pulling things in and crunching numbers and coming up with a more accurate picture. And so you know, I think with the use of AI like that such as I mean, I think POMPEII is a is a prime is a prime example of where it would be beneficial. So I'm the two people I know are three well I know who using Well, for now, we've got Philippo Beyonder, he's using AI. My news say today he is using AI.
I'm using it a little bit. And there's a guy Austin Moore who is an engineer in Detroit who has created a paper because he was querying the functionality of the Geezer power plant using AI and and so yeah, it does. It does kind of take the the emotions out of it and the prejudices out of it. So you know, I think you were shocked when I mentioned one hundred years into the future, you know, one hundred years since Petrie and now we're going to go one
hundred years. Uh, the way things are, the way things are going right now, I think it's going to be a a lot faster than that. Yeah, I know things are changing so fast, so I can't keep up.
Yeah, you know.
It's funny because one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about the previous civilization, the pre Dynastics or pre Egyptians. I don't know if we can even call them Egyptians. It's in Egypt. But if these early people came from another part of the world, who knows what we call them. But when I was in Memphis, Egypt, two years ago, Muhammad took us to an outdoor museum that had this Ramses sculpture laying on its back, and it was thirty five almost I think forty feet tall.
It had been found previously half buried, but it was such a work of alliance, Chris, and from my eye, there's no way in hell it was carved by hand. And in your book on Lost Technologies, you describe how to determine hand and this is what I want to
get to hand carved versus machine carved sculpture sculptures. This thing not only was elegantly carved, it was beautiful, but it was not carved by And I'm an artist, I'm training the illustrator, and I could tell there wasn't anything that was hand a human touch, a chisel or perhaps
some kind of electric chisel. But what makes it fascinating and why there's so much confusion on these Ramseys sculptures is that the guy sticks his cartoonshe on it, puts his signature on it, and the Egyptologists, not looking at the actual form of the sculpture, they accept the fact or they think it's a fact that this was carved during Ramsey's period. Talk a little bit about why precision sculptural work is machined over hand carved.
You actually you started right at the genesis of my my work on the Ramsey statue.
Yeah, let me get stop you real quickly. Talk about you. I think you're at the Ramsey Ramsey in looks or when you saw that one Ramsey's head and that was kind of like something something's off here. You're you're kind of going, something's off here. I gotta look a little closer.
Yeah. No, it was actually in the first time I went to Egypt and I went to the the Memphis, right, Yeah, and so I was an interest that in temples or statues or anything like that. I was, you know, I was just interested in mechanical engineering stuff, right. But I was looking down the length of this statue that you're referring to, and indeed, it's a beautifully carved statue, gorgeous statue. And the one thing that I noticed that struck me was the symmetry. Right away, I know symmetry, and that
is the It was the nostrils. They seem to be perfect. I was like, no, no normal person has, you know, identical nostrils, right, yeah, So that was that's what I first noticed, and I put that in my memory banks and just moved on. Right, that was nice. But then to your point, actually trying to determine whether something it has been machined or been hand tooled. For me, it
is about geometry and precision. And so when you consider that, there are different ways to create a three dimensional object, Like if you're a sculptor, you would you may draw an outline on a piece of rock and then start chiseling away until you reach your final form. And then you know, if you want to create some symmetry, you may use a pointer from one side to another, but to within what accuracy? That is the question, what precision?
And so when my first attempt at determining symmetry and precision in Egypt was not on the statue, not on the face of the statue, but on the crowns and the white crown of per Egypt, which is like a it's like an ellipsoid shape.
Is that the headge yet they called the hedge yet?
Yeah, the head yet, right, and it kind of leans
back like a bowling pin. It's got a top knot on it, but it's like like a beautifully curved ellipse right, right, And so they were when I first went to the Luxo Tempo was in two thousand and four, and I was noticing these these white crowns at the feet of the Ramseys statues, the standing the walking statues in the in the Ramses, and everybody was off chatting about the hieroglyphs on the wall and the reliefs on the wall, and I was running my hands over the surface of
this granite that is like, wow, that's that's smooth. No, no, no wrinkles, no, yeah, like that's really fine workmanship. And that stayed with me until two thousand and six, and I went over in February of two thousand and six with John Anthony West and so we were in the again in the Ramsys Hall, and he's talking about swallowedy lupics and I wanted to learn about shwallowed dalubics.
Uh.
But then my attention was drawn back to the Crowns and I had I had a digital camera with me that time, so the photographs and what I I had my computer too, with my graphics software, I was capable of manipulating, you know, the images so that I could compare one side to the other to see if they were symmetrical. And so that was the first time that I actually did the reverse transparency comparison right and came up with just like a perfect match on the Crowns.
I mean, it was just and that All those are in my book and on my website. If people want to go to my website, look up some look at the photographs I have up there. So the that was the start. It's kind of like, you know, like you're peeling off you're peeling off layers of an onion. You go, you go down one layer, and then you know it's kind of like, well, Okay, I've done this, so I
wonder what's going to happen if I do this? And so after after photographing the crowns, then I was like, well, okay, odds against odds, I've got to do you the face, I've got to do the heads right. And so they had this bust of Gramses out front next to the the obelis and unfortunately they mounted that bust on top of a body. Now it's a part of the standing statue nearby.
But you're lucky to see it down at the eye level too, weren't.
You right right? Yeah, he was right there in front of me. I mean, you know you could go out and touch it, and you did. But anyway, so I took a couple of photographs of there and took that in my into my laptop and I'm going, wow, Okay. So I had a situation where I could line up
the jaw line. So you've got to remember, now you've got this is I'm looking at a two D image of a three dimensional object, right, and so the jaw line is coming down, it's moving in three dimensions, and it's showing that it matches from both sides, right, And I would going Okay, that's remarkable. Now to what accuracy that is another question, you know, is it within ten
thousands of an inch? Five thousands? I don't know. But then there was another aspect to another feature, which was the nose, and the nose was slightly off center, so you know, you had to My camera was evidently just rotated just a little bit so that I didn't get the nose directly centered between the jaw, and so I did more of it than you know, when you're on tour, as you know, you're in and you're off, and then you're on the bus or you're on the plane or
you're going somewhere, right, and it's all great fun. But the uh, but the uh. But the real work came when I got home and I started examining those photographs at home at my leisure and doing a deep dive on them, and and then I was like, crap, I've got to go back to Egypt.
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and will return shortly with my guest today, Chris Dunn, discussing machining in ancient Egypt.
Will be right.
Back, Okay, I guess today is Christan. He has written a number of books, most notably Advanced Machining in Ancient Egypt. Today we're discussing a number of topics having to do with what look to be machine cuts in statuary. So you got into it so heavy that you needed to have confirmation of your theories.
Right, I mean I had to have I understand. I need to go back. I need to have a good a good tripod. I need to be able to photograph things. And and so I went to my boss and I said, hey, I need to go back to Egypt. And he's like, why you just got back? Why are you going back there? I left something there? Well do you leave. I'll I'll
bring my laptop in tomorrow and i'll show you. So the next day I brought my laptop in and I was showing him the what I had, you know, the not quite perfect image of Ramses and what I was how I was analyzing it. And he his eyes open and he goes, oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, okay, I get it all right. So but you put him for your time. And then the following day he comes in there you going alone, He said, this is jud Pack. He was the CEO of the company that you're going
over there alone. I said, yeah, I was planning on it. Well, can I carry your tripod?
You never told me your boss went with you?
Yes, Oh yeah, I didn't know that.
Yeah. So he was the CEO of Damvill Metal Stamping and still is. So is like really keen on going over and actually being a part of it. And so we went went back in May and I spent like I don't know, six hours inside Luxe Temple, uh, and multiple a couple of days in the in the Dender Temple because that's another amazing, amazing place. But the work in the uh, the Luxe Temple uh was I think very significant, and and I think, like you said, I
don't think it has been given enough attention. Uh. That may be because of uh, some misinformation that has been put out because you've got you've got my book, and
you've got the information from my book. Most of the knowledge of the symmetry of Ramsay's that that has been presented by other people on on the internet, on YouTube videos and and so, and they don't have the full and including myself, without accessing the source material and knowing you know, the methods and the observations of the the author of the you know, the the person who has made this discovery, then you may come to the wrong conclusion.
And and so that wrong conclusion was that I had lied. I was dishonest in not in not pointing out the lack of symmetry in parts of the statue. And so it was kind of like, uh, wait a minute, I did. It's in my book. And so, you know, but the you know, when somebody you get these people who for some reason, there have been a few out there that are really taken or dislike to me and my work and have been actively work talking against it.
Yeah, well they must be threatened, though, Chris.
They must be.
Threatened by your clarity that there was an advanced science behind the cutting of these statues. Because if we talk about the Ramsey two at Memphis, that eighty two ton statue was cut out of a block that was probably one hundred and fifty or two hundred ton, and it was done with such level of precision that no one pays attention to it. They just think it's a beautiful statue, but they're not looking closer. Talk about the precision aspect
and why that is so important. And if you want to give the z to head that you saw it looks for as an example, go ahead.
Yes, Well, the essentially, you know, from my background in manufacturing, I'm fully familiar with three dimensional machining of products such as you know, parts for car bodies or you know airplane parts are and aircraft engine where you are machining dyes over which metal will be stretched and formed and stuff like that, and so those dyes have to be precise when you have a when you have a dye that has symmetrical parts to it, you have programmed just
one half and then mirror it to create the other half and then which was together to give you complete complete shape. And so all of this was in my background in terms of how I look at product. And if you consider that I was looking at the Ramsey
statue as a product. And so it's just like you're looking at the vases that are precise to within two thousands of an inch, or you're looking at the boxes in the serapium and the surfaces that are flat with you know, some parts of the boxes not so flat, but the majority of the surfaces are are very flat and uh and square. And so you have all of these products different products, right, that are displaying that underlying
knowledge and and craftsmanship, and it's being applied in different ways. Right, It's not a fluke, it's not a one off. It's not a coincidence, which you know, a lot of people would like to say, oh, well, you know, they just got lucky. No such thing as luck here. I mean this is this is a tightly controlled discipline. It's like
our manufactured items are tightly controlled. We have standards that we have to hold, and we have a measurement system that we use, and so it's obvious in their artifacts that they had to have had the same thing. So when when I look at when I think of decision for me, it's the photographs are basically a bell. I'm right, okay, I'm ringing the bell here. This needs to receive a little more attention in terms of basically it appears to
be very symmetrical and very precise. So the next step would be to give it some metrilogical inspection using a state of the art tools like laser scanners and CMM kind of machines, you know, things like that, and then
to do to do some analysis in the computer. The same thing I did, except in three three D software which will reveal not just the outline of the jaw, but the whole surface of the cheeks and you know, the face, and then compare one side to the next to see how much variation you get between the two. That's when you would say, Okay, yeah, this had to have been machined, because the human hand is not capable of holding that kind of precision, such as like the
pre dynastic vases. You can't make one of those by hand and achieve the same kind of precision. It's just impossible to do. Oh anyway, that's not basically it. And we're I don't know if we're in stage one, two or three right now. We're in. The book has been out since twenty ten, it's now twenty twenty five, so fifteen years, and it's it is getting more attention, and you know, a lot of the controversies are dropping away.
I'm trying to respond to the critics in a way that I'm not arguing with them or arguing past them on the internet, you know, But to publish something that is a reasonable person could understand. Yeah, And you know the other part is that I'm a serious researcher and I have written a book and when you tell somebody that there is a more detailed response to your questions in my book, it seems they get upset because you
are telling them read my book. You know. It's kind of like all the criticism the Haas received of Joe Rogan when he says it's in my book.
Yeah, exactly, totally weird.
It's in my book. So that seems to be a negative these days for people who don't like to read books to get their information on YouTube.
So at this point, after years of the book's been out and you've had a chance to sit and maybe ruminate on this whole thing, do you think that they had something like a software application that had a that was cut, what was attached to some kind of cutting device that would create such perfection do we have Do you have any sense that you could grasp onto without you know, I mean it's all obviously, it's all theory.
But when you look at these Ramsey two faces that are so perfectly cut and with such symmetry and such elegance, there's a human there's a human element to it. But then when you look at the actual cutting, there's no human hands involved. It's all some kind of machine.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean if I was to say how far by, how far backwards would we go in you know, in our civilization or development of technology. If you start out back in the the Industrial Revolution in the eighteen hundred seventeen hundreds, we didn't have the capability to make those statues. Yeah, you know. And so then moving forward with the combination of mechanical templates models to trace from, does that bring it into range? I don't know.
I think even if what what you had was, uh, it was just mechanical machines, I don't think you I wouldn't attempt it, you know. Yeah, And so we are moving forward to an era where uh the guidance of machine tools is uh programmed into the machine rather than uh so that a human has no kind of interaction except just to set it up and style it, start the machine, let it run.
Do you have any sense of that, though, Chris? Do you think that when I look at this Ramsey head and the beauty and the and the precision of the nostrils and the eye and the ear and the mouth, and you talk a lot about the mouth and your book, is it like somebody said, Okay, here's a block of granite, red granite. I'm gonna set up, I'm gonna place it in this machine. I'm going to press a button, and I'm not going to see it until it's done. Is that Is that the sense you get out of that?
Really? That's that's pretty amazing. Then.
So it's like, I think years ago you use the term like garden variety sculpture. It's like it's made for the garden. You know, there's no human element in there at all, except.
Well, you know the Ramseys. Though if you look at the Ramsey's face, it's consistent. Uh, you recognize our face for wherever you see it, and it has the same characteristic. So you know, it's kind of like they had they had a template or some kind of template, whether it was a physical template or electronic template. Uh. But they were basically replicating that same shape over and over again because you know that they have already had the program
and anybody could run it. Right. Yeah, But now now that you see that, think of it this way though, Think of it this way. These are the these are the people that built the pyramids and dug them holes deep into the earth, right, I mean, they were doing some pretty amazing ship back then.
Exactly right.
It's kind of like we we are, we are, we are living with all of these modern mudd and things all around us and looking into the past, and we're seeing a civilization that already determined that coal wasn't the answer, that they were going to grab the electrons from under their feet.
Way ahead of us, ahead of us, right. Yeah, but you know, it even makes less sense that Ramsey would put his cartoush on anything that looks like that. We now define that that look that face that lips the nose of the ears, the eyes of the sculpture that we claim as Ramses. The second it could be the Predynastics version of man. This represents man and and the Egyptologists not having anything to go on, and Ramsey is cartoush on everything. They claim that this is Ramses. It's not Ramses, is it?
No? I don't think so. I mean, they definitely did did some work, did some adjustments to the face. They exaggerated the smile, all right. So the yeah, the mouth is uptowned like this, right. The reason for that is because this statue is what twenty feet tall looking down? Yes, and if the normal mouth you know, which is basically straight across, right, uh, it would look down to that mouth, would look down and you won't get the smile if
you're looking up at it from below. And so you have these optical trickery, this optical trickery on on the on the face. Also the engineering that went into the design of the statues where they strengthened the head by giving it a beard or a gusst from here down here, and then they have the headdress strengthening attached to the shoulders. The elbows were attached to the thighs, which is an unnatural a condition for a human. Uh So, yeah, I mean there's just a lot of a lot of different
features on the on those statues. Plus there's there are these mistakes. You know, you can still look when you look really really closely, you can find you can see
the tool marks on the statues. The statue the one in the British Museum which came from the Ramaseum, it's got an error where they dug too deep in the in the mouth right the corner of the mouth, and so all of these and that is kind of like an indication of a machine or the workpiece of shifted somewhat, and you know there's an error and so they tried to machine out the air by by cutting the lips deeper, right, and so there's a shock right at the vermillion border
where they cut the lips deeper. So they you know, I mean, they were using uh tran standard machining practices when they when they machined those faces, they were using a larger tool to cut the open areas, and then they switched tools to uh a more you know, finer point to cut the fine detailing in it.
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and will return shortly with my guest today, Kristen, discussing advanced Machining in Ancient Egypt. We'll rejoin you shortly speaking with Christun today. He is the author of Advanced Engineering in Ancient Egypt, and we're looking at a number of machined temples, pyramids, and statuary. Do you think that the use of microscopic lenses to look really deep into these cuts would determine the cutting tool?
Uh, you mean, as far as whether they were used, what kind of media that they were using, like diamond or something of that nature.
Yeah, or if you can tell if it's even laser cut, which you would be really a mind blower.
I generally avoid lasers because I was, like, I worked with lasers for about thirteen years and they are very limited in the work that they can do. So and also they're not cheap to run. It's not a very cost effective way to remove material. Compare that to a regular machining or even vibratory machining. If you're using like a ultrasonic machining or something like that, yeah, that would be a little more efficient than using lasers. Lasers was the magical two that just was just looking for a
place to happen. I read that in a trade magazine many years ago. I was fascinated with lasers though, I mean I just loved them, and I got involved with with them as a company in Indianapolis and run in a laser job shop for a while. But the it's a thermal process. So lasers is a thermal process, and you know, you you may ablated the material, but you can't really cut clean cleanly with it.
Because it's too hot and you can't control the heat levels.
Right, I mean, you can control the heat level, but the finishes that you get that you're not going to get the same finishes that you on the y, that you get that you see on the statues or in in these other artifacts. So I would just dismiss laser out of hand. I'd be like, no, no way. There was a guy who came in. He wanted to know
if he was having trouble with his blades. He had a company that made English muffins, and he put raisins in the muffins, right, and so he was having a problem with cutting these muffins because the blade kept dragging on the on the raisins and he was tearing up the muffins. And so he brought in a box of muffins. Wanted to know if I could laser them. It was like, oh my god. I was like, I think that's the wrong application, O man, And he said, well, right, anyway,
so I had to try it. And so basically I put it in the cabinet, set up the machine and let it run, and then opened up the cabinet and took out a toasted muffin.
Jesus, that's funny. Kind of a weird use for that high tech machinery. So, in concluding on the cutting side, your your feeling is it was some either vibrating tool or high revolution blade of some kind that was cutting this granite.
Well, I mean not necessarily high revolution. You know that there's basically the biggest thing to watch or principle that you have to be aware of in any kind of machining is heat, because heat will degrade your cutting tool. And basically it's a matter of the kind of action
that you're empowering on the tool, whether it's rotary or reciprocal. Right, If it's a rotary, you don't want depending on the diameter that you are rotating, you don't want to have too high a revolution because you're going to burn up the tool. It was with Granted i'm talking with granite now, not limestone, So I mean there is you know, it's kind of like the Patrichor number seven, which is which
had those spiral grooves around it. The feed rate was is five hundred times greater than a regular diamond diamond drill, at least it was in nineteen eighty four when I did my research on it. I mean, the improvement in tools, they may be doing it a lot faster now, are a lot greater now. But a lot of people have interpreted that to mean that the tool was spinning five hundred times fast, which is not what I meant. So, yeah,
there's can be some confusion. Some of the confusion I take credit for others, you know, I people can be confused for all kinds of reasons, nothing to do with what I said. Oh did right? Gotcha? Gotcha?
Uh.
Let's finish up with these I call them the Sakara uh vases, dishes plates. I actually was in the pyramid there at Sakara, and I I Muhammad introduced me to a local archaeologist and he sold me a part of a vas not as good as Mark Young or Bell's vases, but it was enough. It was enough to get a sense of just how they cut these things. Talk about the your son Alex and Mark Young's research on these stone bulls. Adam Young, Oh, Adam Young, excuse me, Adam Young.
Yeah. Yeah, Alex was on my tour in twenty eighteen and Adam was on that tour, and so they met at that point, and Alex offered to do a love inspection on his vases. You know, he's discussing his vases, and of course the big the question has always been, oh, look, how precise those vases are? I wonder how precise they really are. Yeah, right, I mean myself, I go into you know, the number of times I've been to Egypt. I mean there have been times when going into the
the Cairo Museum, you couldn't even take a photograph. You had little leavy camera outside, you know. And yeah, and so there's a lot there was certainly no chance for me to get one of those vases. And uh yeah, but anyway, so well, Alex, uh yeah, Adam came to Indianapolis. I was up there. It was at a company, a military contractor Alice was working on as a quality engineer, and they put one of these phases, I think it was the OG or the Collee OG, the original granite phase,
put it upon a rotary table and inspected it. Were using conventional inspection equipment, you know, dial indicators.
And.
It kind of blew me away. I was. I was shocked by what I saw was within two thousand and seven inch of the being precise. And so that was the first indication that hey, I think we've got something here. Adam. Then with Alex, Adam actually went to capture three D I think in Connecticut and had them scan it three D scan it and I got the point cloud. He sent that to Alex. Alex and his friend Nick Sierra,
they both work at Rolls Royce. Now, they took that data and created a STL file, which is a file that you can create C and C code with, so basically takes a whole bunch of points and then renders it down to a file that is that.
The three D file that you can manipulate on your computer.
You can basically apply a tool path to it so and model it. Yeah. So anyway, that's what they did, and they were sitting on it for quite a while, you know, not knowing what steps to take next. Yeah, it's kind of like, yeah, what do we do here now?
And then Alex, you know, he was He's like, I think maybe Ben van Kirkwick would be a good guy to put this information out, And so he and Adam decided that they would do that and went over to Ben and Ben bean with it and and so that's how it got out into the public square.
Yeah, talk a little bit about the last bit of data on this, because Kirkwook is now kind of considering them less less utility home use and possible function of a of a machine of some kind these these what we think are vases and plates and things. Because of the precision, they may be used as some form of application on technology, an engine or something. I don't know, but is that your feeling as well, or are you Do you feel that it's simply.
Yeah, I mean I'm I love exotic ideas and I love to speculate, right and certainly I've come up with a few myself. Uh, but they're just it's just speculation, and and then generally I try to try to follow them rules of OCAM's raiser, right like, so the the all else considered, the simplest solution is probably the correct one. So I you know, there's no way I don't think.
Maybe eventually there will be, but I don't think there's any way to support that idea at this time or to give it more strength than the simple Well it was just a nice little item to put on your shelf, right yeah. Or it was something that we gave apprentices to, you know, before they graduated, because they had to do
some fairly significant work. So that's pretty much yet, I mean, in terms of taking that research further, and that research is continuing, I mean, that's the good thing about it is that Adam and Matt continue to to work hard forwarding you know, their investors, pursuing their investigation further.
Uh.
I think Adam and a a an associate went into the Peach Museum and measured one of their vases. Oh yeah, they're still trying to make them by hand, even though they are. There's one group I think in Russia they are they try to make one by hand and they resorted to using a potter's wheel in order to achieve the achieved the concentricity and the aroundness, but I'm not sure as far as you know the accuracy of it. Yeah.
I had been on the show a few months ago and one of the things he describes is the cut is so great that you can shine a light inside of it and see the light.
One of those phases. Yeah, well, I think it's one that Matt Bell has that you can shine a light and you know that that was another aspect too. That whole research was that after Ben had promoted it on his website, then that's when Matt Bell got involved and started buying up all of these pre dynastic vases. Yeah, and then we did an inspection events at Danville Metal Stamping and so Adam came in with his vases, Matt Bell came in with his We set them up on
the rotary table and just started measuring them. I was measuring the wall thickness of them. God, we were like, it was just like totally blown away by the precision of them. Imagine that using modern day tools, measuring the wall thickness and the wall thickness of this one wase I think it was the one the way you could actually see the light. Yeah, it was. I think that it was within like no more than two thousands of being a thickness all the way around it, And it
was like I was just I was just floored. I was blown away by it. I mean it's like, yeah, this is this is really good work.
And you got to wonder why would they had to why would they cut at that thin?
You know?
And maybe this is where Ben gets his idea that these objects that we consider kitchen items are perhaps machine parts.
So yeah, no, I don't know. I mean, you know, it's always good to stretch your imagination. Yeah, you never know, Yeah, mark something in somebody else that turns into something different. Yeah, I'd say, you know, you can't you can't you can't suppress human ingenuity and imagination.
No, that's what's mix it interesting and fun. Hey, Chris, tell everybody where you're going to be in March. You're going to be part of a tour with my friend Muhammad Imbrahem will be there April twentieth, but you're gonna be there March sixth.
What's the ooh, I think March fourth. Yeah, I think give us the in general.
I know you don't have it in front of you, but what's the itinerary? You guys going to go look for anomalies or what's up?
What are you going to do?
Well? The first thing, of course, this will be the first time that the first tour I've done in a few years. I wasn't going to do any more tours, but I there is a couple of things that I I would like to do. I definitely want to uh be with Filipo BEYONDI and Armando and travel when they do their presentation and add my voice to them, which I also did up in Chicago and supported supported their their findings. I climbed off the fence on their side,
if you will, right. So, yeah, but it's got the usual, I mean the usual tour private accesses. You know, the the Geezer plateau, Saicara Dash sure, but Aburu wash hopefully and then you know down to look so will go all the way down to obosite symbol I think in the tour. So it'll promises to be absolutely unbelievable, a wonderful time that people are I think, you know, Amando and Philippa are are just incredible people. Traver is just
a wonderful guy too. So you know, I can see that this will be an amazing trip for anybody who wants to join.
Fantastic All right, give us your website again, and then what you're up to latest. I don't think there's a book in the works, but you never know.
I have to ask. Well, I guess you'll just have to be surprised. Oh website, and thank you for asking, is uh geezerpower dot com. That's g I Z A p o w e R gizer power dot com. And there's a lot of links in the articles section. There's some headline news on the front page. In the article section, there's pages on the machined artifacts that we discussed today. There's an article on the stone at Abaroash, the Ramsey statues. There's all kinds of photographs of those two, so I've had it, enjoy it.
Yeah, I should mention that Chris is fairly good at writing articles and he has a whole bunch of I'm going to post an article that where he responded to inquiries about his book Lost Technologies of the Ancient Egypt, So good place to see his articles. Chris is always a pleasure. Great to see you, and I appreciate.
Thank you very much. Yeah, it looks like you're getting a little gray up top there. Yeah, yeah, but that's okay. At least you've got a.
Lot of it left, all right, buddy, you take care.
Yeah, take care. I now bye.
I'm gonna show a number of images on the Facebook page. You can also go to Chris Dunn dot com and see his latest articles. And I'll post the article that he recently submitted his take on the t SARS synthetic aperture radar imagery of the Kufu and Caffrey Pyramids, So that's something to consider. Always good to have him on the program. Hey, we are gearing up for our seventh annual Grant Egyptian. It's going to be April twenty eighth
through May tenth. It is focused on these megalists. We've been talking about the Ramseys statuary temples, including Hathor Karnak, but we're going to see some very old portions of Egypt that you can that you can visit, actually get out and touch the statues and the buildings and things. For the entire itinerary, go to Earth Ancients dot com,
forward slash tours. We're making this tour very reasonably priced, and I always mentioned that Earth Ancients is probably the most reasonably priced tour that you can take to Egypt. Our tour is about half the price, fifty percent off the normal rate of about twelve thousand dollars. For all the details, all the information, you go to earth Ancients
dot com, forward slash tours and register. We're about a third of the way to the full This tour typically sells out by December, So if you have any questions whatsoever, send me an email. Sent it to Earth Ancients the number four of the letter you at gmail dot com, and I'll get right back to you Earth Ancients Grand Egyptian Tour number seven. All right, that's it for this program. I want to thank my guest today Kristin wonderful lam on the program has always a team of Gail tour
Mark Foster, Infela ParvE. You guys rock all right, take care of you well and we will talk to you next time.