We've had him on many times. We're talking about doctor av Lobe, who has been in the news and I mean everywhere, talking about his discovery of an extraterrestrial craft he believes crashed into the Pacific Ocean in twenty fourteen. Lobe, who heads the Galileo Project, is now enhancing his research to include UAPs unidentified aerial phenomenon. His program is looking at these craft in a transparent fashion,
releasing the data to the general public. We're also going to learn today about a new book he is releasing called Interstellar, on how we need to prepare for extraterrestrial civilizations to meet with us and our place in the Solar System. All this and Bruce Fenton today on Earth Ancients or Saturday, September ninth, twenty twenty three. This is Earth Ancients. I'm your host, Cliff Dunning. Hey, what are you doing? What's going on? I'm glad
you're with us today. Can you believe it? Summer is almost over? It's the ninth, the ninth of September. What the heck? You blink your eye and there's a month that's gone. It seems like it's been going pretty quick this year. But you know, what that's the way it is, isn't it. So I was reading in the Daily Mail just a few days ago articles on our friend doctor Avy Lobe. It turns out that he did find some significant fragments of this asteroid. He calls it I am one.
It's the original inner stellar meteorite. It actually hit the ocean Pacific Ocean close to New Guinea in twenty fourteen, and he and his team had tracked this and verified it through Space Command that has a huge array of telescopes around the world that track meteorites or what they call near Earth orbiting objects, which is kind of interesting in itself because you've got to wonder what's orbiting our planet, and it was able to track this meteor that hit in twenty fourteen and
disintegrated in our atmosphere. Now, this is interesting for a lot of different reasons because doctor Loew believes that the fragments are from another interstellar deep space area. And we're gonna hear later today in this interview with him exactly what he found and exactly what the significance of it is. But I wanted to talk with our science editor Bruce Fenton on just what his take was because does this
mean this is a first contact? How do we look at this? So, Hey, Bruce, how you been man, Good to see you. Yeah, I'm doing pretty well. Yeah, I've just been enjoying our very very wet and mild summer in the UK. But now I've been following this story and it's very interesting. So yeah, I decided to catch up with you and have a chat. Yeah, so what's your feeling on these fragments?
Are they? Are these? I mean they're too small to be determined to be part of a ship body part some technology because they actually burnt up in the atmosphere and were deposited in the ocean. But what what could we detect? What would we surmise from this data? Yeah? Absolutely, I mean, of course, I think all of us that were following this story, you know, we're very hope that they might recover some large fragments, you know, which obviously was always going to be like you know, hard
and probably unlikely. But you know what we'd love to see is you know, a large chunk of material. Now at this point, what they have, as you point out, as these small spherals, So these are small
pieces of melt. So these liquefied object has cascaded out these droplets, you know, and obviously those of slidified as they've hit the ocean and have rained down to the bottom, where they've fortunately stayed much in place as to where it was calculated they would be, and that's to do the ocean depth there there's not tick strong currents moving them around, so they've got quite lucky.
And it was a large search area as well as word point out that this again it's very fortunate they've managed to find these because it was over several kilometers that they were trawling the seabed in the hopes of finding these tiny fragments, and they've ended up with some six hundred and twenty two of them that were sent back to Harvard's labs. So, you know, so they've done really really well on the first point. The second point is that, yeah,
they don't have large pieces. There is talk of a return to this site and you know, hoping to find larger chunks, but as it is, you know, of course, they are working with what they have and the the initial analysis has been quite sort of revealing. So what they have found is that the composition, so the proportions of the different metals and indeed,
the types of different metals in there make this quite unusual. There's in particular a much higher concentration of elements like beryllium, lanthanum, and uranium than is seen in other you know, natural asteroids and comets and stuff that we see in our Solar system. And so indeed the way that these these furrows are
composed makes them unique in our Solar system. So we don't find this with debris from the mark you know, from Mars, the Moon, any of the kind of the iron meteorites or the other kind of silica type asteroids. So these are unique. And that's they've got some point where can say, okay, these really do have the characteristics of having come from outside of the Solar System, making this you know, of course, absolutely fascinating. You've
got interstellar origin kind of confirmed already. But the next step has to be at that closer look to see whether or not we can see potential for artificiality and in that, you know, construction of something like probe craft or just a piece of alien junk that has drifted through space for maybe millions of years. So that's the next stage they have to go to is to try and go deeper analysis. Yeah, nobody's doing this kind of work unless some Russian
scientists. And of course, our relationship with Russia right now is in the toilet and we're not really communicating. But what do you think of this this research? I think it's exciting, Yeah, I do. I think it's exciting because you know, there's the potential here to make some amazing discoveries. Because we know that there's interstellar objects that have been passing through the Solar System
unobserved, you know, every year. I mean one of the calculations is that something like seven interstellar objects per year have probably been passing the Earth. Now, if you take that back since the Earth began us, you know, four point five billion years time seven, you know that that's a lot of interstellar objects that we have not observed. Now, some of those would have come into the atmosphere, maybe burned up, others may have impacted.
Now, what if amongst these interstellar objects are many alien probes, you know, derelict craft, pieces of satellites that got you know, knocked out of orbit from some other you know world. Amongst all these billions of objects, I think the statistical likelihood is there that we have got alien technologies that have hit say the Moon, Mars, Earth, you know, because they're not
being limited to Earth. But you know, we're going to find I think, pieces of technology that have impacted the surfaces of many of the planets and asteroids in our solar system. So that's that's a kind of an amazing scenario, and it's no longer a wild science fiction scenario because, like I say, you just need to do the maths. You know, seven times four point five billion mysterious interstellar objects that passed through here. So there's no reason
now to think that this isn't worth taking seriously. And so if we start to look for where these objects have come down, and obviously some of this we can do by looking into the old databases. And that's what you know, Avy Lone's team did. They looked into a database of objects that had been monitored coming into the atmosphere and they were able to look and see what
kind of speeds were involved. And so in this one in particular that they've analyzed it, when it broke through into the atmosphere, it was traveling at forty five kilometers per second, and obviously that's crazily fast, and so that's so fast. That's faster than any of the known objects in our solar system. Right, So that's how they got the first clue that this is something different. This is something that's must be coming from outside of the solar systems.
It's not bound to the Sun, it's not traveling at the speeds that we would expect. Right. So if we look through those same kind of databases, you know, historically, there's a good chance that his team are going to start to see you know, oh, look, you know, we've got this object, other object that came in you know, five years ago, ten years ago, and that was going too fast as well, and like where did that come down? Oh? You know, does come
down in the desert over here? You know, So we could start to see this expand and become kind of like a global interested object recovery program,
right, yeah, imagine that. I mean, we may be starting to have more of that view of you know, jeep sand into the desert looking for some possible legging and probe you know, crash showing the desert and this kind of what we'd have fought in the past, of kind of a Hollywood sounding that may start become the reality of this topic and If we do that, I think there's a good chance that we're going to start turning up more than spherals, you know, that we may actually find something that's impacted on
land, you know, and buried in the sand or something like that. Right. Yeah, Now we both know about the American Space Command as well as NASA GPL and of course the Department of Defense. How do they react to lobe? And he doesn't really talk about that in the article. He's almost in many ways not even attempting to describe their reaction. He's looking at it like pure science and he will disclose what he finds, which I love
being as transparent as possible. But how do you think the government is going to reacts? And also you're in the UK, they follow us a similar protocol of like keeping things tightly quiet in top secret. Yeah, I wonder if there's some nervousness around the idea that, you know, that he finds something and it goes public very quickly, you know, without the ability for you know, the powers that be kind of to step in and control the
narrative. So that could be you know, considered as a potential distabilizing event, right, you know, So if you want to control the narrative around interstellar objects or being in particular artificial interstellar objects, so you know, probes,
craft debris. You know, if the US government and the region kind of have that view that, you know, we want control on this, and the intelligence structure, the military structure want that control, then you know, an organization like the Gallera project may for them be you know, a
concern. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is some level of monitoring, you know, like intelligence covert monitoring of the Gallet Prosure we know that even if we look historically, even some of the UFO contacts in the past were monitored by like the FBI and the CIA, you know, so there's a history to this topic. Really wild stuff of looking into you start to realize that people that were supposed he considered to be just lunatics were actually being very
closely monitored by the intelligence services. So would they not take more seriously A scientist like Loeb, who's putting out detectors has already found pieces of an interstell
object. Surely he's more interesting than a UFO contact that has no funding and you know, no way to really do science, right, So I'd be super surprised if there isn't kind of level of covert monitoring and to see, you know, get ahead of whatever he's doing, so that perhaps if he gets to a point of finding something really interesting, maybe they would step in. You know, I'd hope not. I'm sure that everyone would hope not.
But you know, we have to be a bit mindful that there is a history to these topics and that you know, it does seem that there's at least factions in the military industrial complex they don't want a serious conversation around non human intelligence aliens, you know, and then we're back to swear one where it's being repressed, it's being you know, I don't think and maybe
you know more about it. I don't think the Galileo project is being funded by the government in any capacity knowledge and so it's privately funded, which means that he can do as he wishes, right, Yeah, so he's he has stuck with the founding kind of statement that they would not enter into any sign of secretive agreements with any you know, state apparatus, so they wouldn't
be looking at any classified materials or you know, using classified systems. Because as soon as you do that course then you end up you're kind of under the sway of the intelligence system. So I mean, I like that they've done that. I like that they've agreed that they won't use classified sources and stuff, because otherwise, yeah, you can see how very quickly they could be coopted. You know, we've seen happening in the kind of the UFO
community. Is a lot of people have these sources, you know, which are intelligence people and either get fed disinformation or eventually get coopted where you know, they can't speak because it's classified. So I would definitely hope that he continues to stick with the being very transparent. But there is an issue that when that's the funding, because of course no one has money like the military
has money, you know. Yeah, yeah, so in the private world, you know, the Gallo project, they have to kind of go out and look for this funding. And if people look at the article and see it cost one and a half million dollars just to do this search to find these ferrules, right, I mean, that's quite a bit a cash beus. There's nothing compared to government spending, you know, I think of an air carrier or but I mean in terms of you know, private individuals scientists
doing this, of course is prohibitively expensive without having wealthy backers. And also it does point out that you know, for the next stage of analysis, and that's to take these spherules and not look at just the composition and say the isotopic ratios, but to go deeper and to use technologies that can look at the really the almost to the atomic structure, right because there are technologies
you can do that. But as he points out, this is going to be multiple times as much money to do this, and these are these are very expensive analysis kinds of measures, so it may well he doesn't give an exact figure, but I'm assuming we're looking at perhaps you know, five to ten million dollars or something to do the deep analysis on these these artifacts to see whether or not there's still traces of them being being perhaps manufactured, should
at the atomic level, and that these being you know, artificial alloys, so that can be done even though they be melted, and that they are not obvious. You know, obviously from technology you can do deeper analysis. And I know that doctor Gary Nolan has talked a bit about this with you know, he does some analysis on UFO franks that people aren't aware of Gary Nolan. They're looking up. He kind of works with doctor Jack Vallet, you know, he's kind of famous in the UFO world, and that they
have been analyzing some debris that's alleged to be from UFOs. But he's talked about about this that the cost of these technologies is immense and that's why they you know, the Galleta project is going to need a lot more money coming in to take this to the next level, and without government government help or the military, you know, it's going to need like a community kind of response where either individuals or wealthy you know, people in the tech world or
business people, some somebody is going to have to come forward and say, you know, here's ten million dollars. How they you know, go and get this fully analyzed to the point where we know for sure if it's natural or artificial. And that's quite a gamble because if it comes up, well,
even it comes up natural obs it's fascinating. But of course, what you're really hoping at that point, and you're putting that much money in, is you're hoping it's going to spin on the wheel and come up as artificial, right, because it's a lot of money. Yeah, totally. So we don't know. Yeah, will people put the money? And that's the big question is are we going to see someone step forward and say go for it, let's do the atomic analysis exactly. Bruce is always good at chatting
with you, and I appreciate your insight. We'll talk to you again. Awesome, Yeah, great, great chance, yea, thanks much. So our program today is interstellar and my guest is a vy Lobe, So Aby Lopes in the house. And I gotta tell you, you would think that a astrophysicist would be at the chalkboard working on figures and calculations, But I gotta tell you I recently and I'm a fan of current events and what's going on, and I am a big fan of UK Daily Mail, And would
you believe it? I was perusing through and I found an article it's called exclusive Truth about my Alien Encounter. How I found bombshell interstellar objects a mile beneath the sea and their limitless potential for life on Earth by scientists Avy Lope. Now you would think this would be a reporter who's talking to Avy,
but guess what. Avy wrote the article and he actually posted it himself, a very very important article because if you remember the last time we left off with Avy, we were listening and understanding that he was pursuing these fragments from a earlier asteroid that had plunged into the Pacific Ocean. And I'm happy to say that he has actually found these objects. And Avy, Welcome to Earth Ancients. Great to have you, and you look fantastic. How are you?
Thanks for having me. It's a great pleasure to join you. You can talk some more about the details. Yeah, that's what I want to do first is get the detail after this. Obviously you got the funding, and you got a team together, you went to the Pacific Ocean. You actually developed a device, a magnetic troll or something that was able to pick up these fragments. Talk a little bit about that, would you. Yeah.
Well, obviously there were many possible failure points in this expedition, and I still look at it as a miracle that all of them worked out amazingly. Well. So it all started from January eight, twenty fourteen, almost a decade ago, when the US government satellites detected a fireball from an object that collided with Earth over the Pacific Ocean, roughly half a meter in size,
and such objects do collide with Earth every few months. There is nothing unusual about the existence of a meteor, except that this one was moving very
fast. And five years later we realized with my student that in fact, this object was moving so fast that it must be unbound to the Sun, that it came from outside the Solar System, and in fact, three years later the US Space Command confirmed that at the ninety nine point nine and nine percent confidence, and we calculated that even outside the Solar System, the object that collided with Earth was moving faster than ninety five percent of the stars in
the vicinity of the Sun relative to the local standard of press the frame of the Milky Way galaxy, so it was a fast mover. And moreover, based on the government data on the lightcurve from the fireboard, we concluded that it was tougher than all the space rocks in the NASA catalog of meteors two
hundred and seventy two of them over the past decade. And that raised the possibility that maybe it's technological in origin, because if you imagine Voyager that we launched out of the Solar System, it might collide with an earthlike planet in the future and would appear as a meteor in the sky of that planet of unusual strength material strength because it's made of stainless steel, but also of unusual
speed because it was propelled by a chemical rocket. And so to find out what this object that was first to be discovered from interstellar space is made off, we decided to go to the explosion side of this meteor, which was
identified by the US government within a seven mile region. We narrowed down the path of the meteor using data from a seismometer on Manus Island, Papua New Guinea, and then we built a sled with magnets on both sides so that we can skim the ocean floor and look for magnetic particles leftover from that object, molten droplets that came out of it from its surface when it was exposed
to the immense heat from the fireball that it generated in air. And that sounds like a very difficult task to find those droplets that are millimeter in size, roughly the size of a grain of sand, across the region of seven miles in length, and because the ocean depth was about a mile over there. And but first the first challenge was actually to get the funding and as you mentioned, I was able to get that funding within a few months after
announcing the expedition. It was one and a half million dollars contributed by Chas Hoskinson, who also arranged for us to go there with his private jet. And moreover, we found a ship that was fittingly called the Silver Star that
was very suitable for the mission. We went there between June twenty between June fourteen and twenty eight this year, twenty twenty three, and in those two weeks we had the twenty six runs seven miles in length each at criss crossing the region around the meteor path, and also having some runs that were outside that region, just for control and background figuring out what is the background of whatever we find. And so in the first six days we didn't find anything
any morten droplet from that object. We just found mostly volcanic ash black powder. And then we started filtering it out using a mesh and the bigger particles roughly ten of a millimeter or bigger, were put under a microscope and lo and behold we found the first spheral at the first molten droplet, and that,
of course I was delighted. I hugged the person on the ship that found it, and then just like finding an ant in the kitchen, you know, I usually get alarmed because I know there must be many more out there. And we found the fifty of them on the ship and then brought all the materials that we collected back to Harvard University to examine it with some
of the best instruments in the world. And first of all, we made a map of where the spheral yield was the highest, and turns out that along the meteor path we got an enhancement in the number of spherals perir amount of mass of background material that we retrieved, and so that indicated that we are in the right spot. And moreover, those there was an excess of spirrols of a type that we've never seen before anywhere in the control regions,
or not seen you know, in the scientific literature. These were spirrols that were made that had concentrations of some elements hundreds of times bigger than solar system materials. And these elements were beryllium, lantern um, uranium, and other
heavy elements between lantern room and uranium. We gave it the name below for beryllium, lanternum, uranium, and never seen before in the Solar System, not on Earth, not on the Moon, on Mars, or asteroids, and so we concluded that it's likely to be from outside the Solar System. Now there are two possible sources. You can think of. A natural source, and we mentioned it in the paper. It could be a planet that had a molten lava on top, basically molten rock. It's called magma ocean.
And if there is an iron core, some elements are attracted to the iron and they settle to the center of the planet, and then those that are left behind could be the ones that we find as over abundant. So it would be just a rock that was kicked out of a molten lava planet.
And the challenge there is that you need to make a lot of these rocks tend to the part twenty three or together almost an earth mass worth of material pair star in the Milky Way galaxy, which is a very big number because you need to break a whole Earth into pieces that are roughly five hundred kilos in mass. That was the mass of estimated mass of this meteor. So that's one possible scenario that we mentioned in the paper. A natural origin
from a magma ocean planet. And another is of course technological, if there is a reason for putting these elements together that serves some technological purpose. And the one thing I'm thinking about is, you know, we we sort of have a recipe for a cake. We can take those elements that we found enhanced in these ferrals and put them together, just like you make a cake. You mix them and see what you get. And perhaps we will get
material of some unusual properties. Maybe even material strength would be extremely high. We should see now in that paper you are able to analyze it to a certain degree, but there's further analysis that actually is very expensive. What is that analysis and does that determine if it's an actual craft or a natural asteroid?
Yeah, so that would be the subject of our next expedition. We will try to find bigger pieces of the object because it's easy to tell if you get a big piece whether it's a rock or a piece of a technological gudget, and that will be the focus of our next expedition. We will need to use a completely different machinery because it's impossible with the small magnets that
we use to collect big pieces. So we will build something new and it will be more expensive because we want to have the view of the ocean floor when we collect those big pieces, and we know where to go because we found the sparrows in very specific locations, and now it's also of like a treasure and now we know where to go. I mean, another way to think of the sparrows is like rose pedals that lead us to our lover, which is the whatever it is left, the bigger pieces that were left from
from the object. We should let our listeners know that these aren't engine parts or anything. These are micro fragments that were you're looking for. Do you have any sense intuition or any conscious awareness of this being more than just another asteroid like the omat yeah ooma. By the way, it's still a mystery because it was the other interested our object discovered almost four years later, and it appeared to be different than asteroids or comments that we're familiar with in the
Solar system. It had a flat shape based on the reflection of sunlight as it was stumbling every eight hours, and also it had some push away from the sun without showing a commentary evaporation, and I interpreted that to be the push created by the reflection of sunlight from it. And actually three years later, in September twenty twenty, there was another object discovered that had the same
qualities of being pushed by reflecting sunlight without a commentary tail without evaporating. That one was a rocket booster that NASA launched in nineteen sixty six, so we know it was art efficient, so it's also possible that was art efficient. The question is who created it. But the interesting point is that both objects, the meteor and Omamoa, were outliers. They looked different than the rocks
that were familiar with in the Solar System. So I think that is the way of the universe sending us a message that we should not necessarily expect the interstellar objects to be the same as a Solar System objects. I should mention that after more, there was a commet found from interstellar space. It was named Borissov and after the amateur astronomer that discovered it, Gnadi Borissov, and
that one looked just like a commet from the Solar System. So to me, it illustrates how unusual Oma and the meteor were in the sense that they did not look like the objects that are familiar to us. Because when we see something familiar, we can recognize it. That was this commet borissov And a lot of my colleagues say, oh, was also a commet, but it was made of hydrogen, or was made of nitrogen, or was it dust bunny? In other words, an object that we've never seen before.
But they say it's natural as well. I have difficulties subscribing to that, because there are challenges for each of these explanations. I mean, a hydrogenized berg would be evaporated before it arrives to us very quickly. It's not tightly bound, and nitrogenizedberg is just not There is just not enough solid nitrogen in the Milky Way galaxy. I wrote a paper about each of those challenges.
And then a dust bunny, a cloud of dust particles just wouldn't survive coming close to the Sun when it's heated by hundreds of degrees because you need The suggestion was that it's density would be a hundred times less than the density of air in terms of the mass spernit volume. So that's to me, sounds like a very fragile cloud anyway. So my point is we should collect more evidence, more data on those interstellar objects or other objects similar to them,
and that's my plan for the for the coming years. Yea more interstellar objects or go after big pieces of the meteor and figure out that's the way science advances no knowledge. I mean, there are lots of my colleagues who know the answer. They pretend to be the adults in the room, but they're not seeking evidence and that's not the scientific way. And the other thing that your peers seem to forget is that you're looking for and wanting to open consciously
to the possibility of contact with a foreign and et civilization. This is the problem we're faced with. We have so many in the United States. I'm talking about the scientists that are completely shut down to the possibilities of a contact scenario. And this is prevalent in our society. It's just well, I would say, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. If you tell yourself the answer in advance, you're not seeking any evidence to check it, to test it.
And you know that started with Enrico Fermi, who said where is everybody? I mean, that's not enough to ask this question, because you need to be engaged in the search for everybody. I mean, if you are standing at home and you are single and you say I have no partner. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. But to find a partner, you need to go to dating sites, you need to look through your window, you need to go out to the street, or at least to your backyard and search
for anything that came from the street. And Enrico Fermi didn't even use telescopes. He didn't. He was just eating lunch at Los Alamos and waiting to see if anything comes around that maybe an alien craft. And space is vast and time is very long, measured in billions of years, so why would they come exactly when he's waiting in Los Almos. I mean, it's very presumptuous of us not to search just because we know the answer in advance.
And my point is that only over the past decade we discovered the first objects, you know, that came from outside the Solar system, the meteor Mua Borissos. So you know, we should be open minded and collect evidence, and it requires a lot of work. So instead of people saying extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and quoting Segand car Segand and that, my point is extraordinary evidence requires extraordinary funding, you really need need to put a lot of effort,
a lot of resources to find the evidence. And that's obvious if you look at other parts of physics and science in general. You know, we would never discover gravitational waves unless the National Science Foundation would have poured the one point one billion dollars into the Lego experiment, and it took decades for them to make up those instruments that are sensitive to gravitation ways. If people would say, oh, I don't see any evidence for gravitation waves, then you
know, would not do anything. Obviously, we will never find gravitation ways. So you know, we shouldn't expect things to fall into our lap. I mean, there are things in life that fall into our lives, like if you look out, you see birds. Okay, so that's something that we are But if you want any anything beyond what we already know, you
really need to put the effort for that. And the mistake made by a lot of people is to say, you know, I already know the answer, and I don't you want to invest any effort in the search, And then it's a self fulfilling prophecy that you will not learn anything new. Now you've just released your second book. It's called Interstellar, The Search for Extraterrestrial Life and Our Future in the Stars. Wonderful book for those of you listening.
It just was released last month. What is it? What is preparing for interest? Our future? Is? This is what you're talking about right now. But I want just a brief overview from you. What is it consciously that we need to prepare? How do we prepare for that? Well, first of all, we should search for our neighbors. You know,
it's not the it's not overous. I mean, for seventy years we've been waiting for a phone call in the form of radio signals, and you're knowing about the SETI program, which ye equation, which is like a grain of salt. It's so yeah. Anyhow, Yeah, and by the way, that it's very very strange because the SETI community was searching for seventy years for
radio signals and they have a problem with searching for objects. And I find that really strange because it's just another possibility, and to me, it sounds much more natural to search for objects that represent the other technological civilizations. The reason is simple. When you're waiting for or a radio signal, you need the counterpart to be transmitting it at the time, you know, such that you will detect it. If they transmitted it a billion years ago, we
would never see it because now it's a billion light years away. So however, if you are searching for packages in your mailbox or in your backyard, the center could be dead. You don't need the sender to be around. And moreover, these packages can accumulate over time. You know, you could have multiple packages in your mailbox. You can have multiple tennis balls in your
backyard that were thrown by neighbors, you know. And the thing about rockets of the type that we launch two space is that they move relatively slowly compared to the speed necessary to escape from the Milky Way galaxy. So so all of them will keep accumulating over time. And if other civilizations are using chemical propulsion, and there would be there will you keep collecting in interstellar space over billions of years, just like plastics collecting the ocean, And we just need
to search for them. And that requires effort because the current telescopes that we're using can only see objects that are the size of a football field within the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. Only such big objects reflect enough sunlight for us to detect it. And I calculated that in terms of the meteor that the first interstellar meteor, there should be at any given time a few million of those within the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. A lot
of them. We can't see them from the reflection of sunlight. We can see only one that collides with Earth every decade, and that is a rare event, and not you know, and most of them are just passing in the dark. We just don't know about them. And so we should make a special effort to find those interstellar objects that maybe you know, maybe there are many of them are just space trash. They're not functional anymore, just like the spacecraft that we launched. Once they exit the Solar System, that
will not be operational. There is, of course the possibility of another type which is functional, and that's what the US government is talking about. There was a hearing in the House of Representatives where three eyewitnesses talked about such objects, and the world extra terrestrial was mentioned multiple times over there, and David Grush testified under oath that the US government has retrieval and reverse engineering programs for
such materials. We still have to wait and see if anyone shows us the evidence. Until then we cannot be sure. But at any event, it's a frontier that was not studied by the SETI community, and they are very hostile to those studies, and I find it strange. I think it's complete really inappropriate, because if if the public cares so much about it, and the US government cares so much about it, it's our duty as scientists to attend to it and try to figure out the nature of these objects that pilots
military personnel, you know, intelligence agencies say they cannot figure out. And moreover, the entire field of interstellar objects, as I mentioned, is just that it's infancy. So I think we have a lot to find out, and it's really unfortunate there aren't many people within academia willing to engage in this.
I established the Galilo project that I'm leading, and we have an observatory that is looking for objects in the sky, monitoring them twenty four to seven in the optical, infrared, radio, and audio, and we are analyzing the data with the machine learning software. And we have one operating observatory at are planning to make copies of it, the first one in Colorado, hopefully
within the coming month for two, but more in the future. And so the way I see it is that this should be part of the mainstream in science because you know, it resonates with the public's interest and it's something we can make progress on using the scientific method. We're gonna take a short commercial break and we will return with av Low talking on his discovery and of course
his new book Interstellar, will be right back. My guest today is A V. Low, who has written a new book called Interstellar, The Search for Extraterrestrial Life and our Future in the Stars. And we're talking about becoming an interstellar civilization, one able to meet with and explore the universe with other
worldly civilizations. One of the things I like about this new book, Interstellar, is the fact that you have classes of civilizations, and you have us as a D class, which is almost the lowest least of all of all the classes. But talk briefly about how we can improve our position and be more open and have politicians who are working towards getting funding to develop new programming.
Right so, as of now, we are spending two trillion dollars every year on military budgets, and this is just to protect ourselves from others that may be trying to kill us or kill others. And my point is, if we change priorities and dedicated it to space exploration, we could have launched the CubeSat towards every star in the Milky Way galaxy, billions of them within
this century. It's just a matter of priorities. And of course, in reverse, that says that the civilization that was more intelligent than we are in the sense that they allocated resources not to fight each other but to work together for space exploration. They could have reached every star in the Milky Way galaxy if they just focused on that for a century. And we should look for
their packages therefore, because it might inspire us. And you know, obviously we if we get this wake up call, we might change our priorities and realize that, you know, we are all in the same boat. We are all on Earth. This is a rock that is moving through space, and we should work together towards a better future. And in my book, I indeed classify civilizations into different types. And we are d typed because we
are destructive to our planet. You know, we are. We behave just like you know, visitors to a national park that throw bottles on the grass, you know, and we are destroying our environment. But if you think about it, the most intelligent thing that the civilization can do is recreate its environment. So that means creating life in the laboratory, which is possible almost
for us now. And also if they happen to understand how to unify quantum mechanics and gravity, they might be able to create a baby universe in the laboratory. These are qualities that we assigned to God in religious texts, the ability to create life, the ability to create the universe, But in reality it could be qualities that very advanced scientific civilization has. And the first question I would like to ask if we ever have an encounter with a more advanced
scientific civilization is what was there before the Big Bang? Because we don't know. We don't have a theory that of quantum gravity that predicts what happened before the Big Bang. And the reason I'm curious is first because it represents our cosmic roots and I would like to know, but it also touches the issue of how to unify quantum mechanics and gravity. And finally, you know,
I want to know whether our universe was created by scientists in laboratory. You know, was this an act by a scientist that understood how to make baby universes And we're talking about panspermia. No, actually, it's more than that planspermia. It's just the ability to transfer life between planets. And by the way, transpermia could happen just naturally, because we know that the Martian rocks arrived to Earth, so if they had microps inside of them, they were
the tiny as developed, no more developed. So I'm talking about them. Actually, I'm talking about recreating life in the laboratory out of you know, a soup of chemicals, or creating a baby universe in the sense of, you know, creating a whole universe out of nothing, such that this universe could give rise to you know, galaxies like the Milky Way, stars like the Sun, planets like the Inside, and on those planets you might actually
make new scientists that will create new baby universes. So it's it's just like humans who are born into this world are able to create new humans that will make new humans and so forth. And so it's possible that the reason you know, there was a Big Bang, it's because a scientists decided to make our universe and we live in it, and we might be you know, an advance civilization within our universe might be able to create a baby universe all
over again. And so that's the possibility and discussed. And this would represent the most advanced level of a civilization that can create its environment. So it's not destroying it the way we do. Uh, it's not adapting to it or modifying it to the better, but it's actually creating it all over again. And then to me, that represents the highest level of intelligence. If you can recreate the circumstances that led to your existence, you know, you
can't do better than that. Yeah, I have always felt that when we have this first contact with a interstellar race who welcomes us to the planetary system or whatever, we automatically evolve as a race. Just just the action of knowing that we are not alone changes our perspective. What do you feel about that? Yeah, that's that's exactly right. I mean we know it from our daily lives. When meet a partner obviously gives us a sense of meaning
to our life. It gives us that the unity to learn something new from a different perspective, and especially if the partner has been around longer than we did. I mean, the example that I often say mentioned and the metaphor is, you know, we just came to Earth, the human species only a couple of million years ago, and that's about one part in ten thousand of the age of the universe. We are also not at the center of the universe. We know that we move. I mean, the Earth moves
around the Sun, and the Sun moves around the Milky Way galaxy. And so if you arrive to a play and just at the end of the play and you're not at the center of stage, the play is not about you, and you better ask other actors what the play is about. You better seek them. And that's what I'm talking about, finding someone who has better knowledge about how the universe started and what happened in it. If I you
know, the second question that I'll have is who came before us? And you know, where is the nearest party that we can join of other civilizations? And I would be you know, delighted to meet those And see how I mean, there must have been a lot that rose and fell, you know, that perished because their star extinguished, or life forms on those planets
I mean within a billionaires. No matter what we do, the earth would lose its liquid water because of the sun getting brighter, and then we will have to move somewhere else because life as we know it will not be possible. I want to talk a little bit about these UPA tracking stations that you've
developed. We've had Mary and Redneck on the program. He's a former NASSA GPL astronomer who had his own side in southern California, tracked them with cameras of his own and published it and was has now been harassed by he called, you know, the men in black, whatever you want to call them. How do you resist or move beyond that current state of mind with our government who just can't get beyond themselves that this is science and it's not secrets
or military problem. Well, I don't see a conflict with government because and I didn't encounter such resistance from them, because you know the government is mainly focused on national security. Okay, so as long as you don't violate their interest in national security, I don't see an issue because obviously, I mean, if you come close to a military base or a nuclear react or, you're entering a sensitive area, and they don't want you to collect information because
it can serve adversaries. Okay, if you make it public, but you know, most of the sky is not classified, most of the oceans are
not classified except near strategic assets that the US has. So as long as you avoid them, and it's easy to avoid them, I don't see a conflict because you know, the government will keep monitoring the sky and those areas as a matter of national security, and you can do scientific work elsewhere, and there is nothing to be worried about because astronomers look at the sky all the time, you know, they just focus on very distant sources of light.
They don't care about things passing overhead. And but that's why we built a completely new observatory, the Galileo Project allows us now to monitor the entire sky, it even locations. So frankly, I don't see any issue with US taking scientific data making its public. Of course, if we notice something that says made in China on it, then you know me, for me, it would be very boring. Actually, I don't care much about any human made the object or any natural object from Earth, like a bird.
You know, zoologist will be very excited about birds, and I'm happy to give them any photographs we get on birds, but to me, it's boring, And the same is true about human made objects, and we are just trying to figure out if one in a thousand objects may not be from this Earth, and for that you need to do a systematic study of the sky. Yeah, wouldn't it be easier? I mean, we know our military and NASA have four plus decades, probably six decades of data of looking at
these originally UFOs now UAPs. In many ways, you're kind of having to reinvent the will because you're saying, I don't want to bother with your secrecy. I don't want to sign a non disclosure agreement, And in fact, when we first talked, you've were flat out refused to sign a non disclosure with I don't know, I think with Space Command, isn't it kind of a irritant for you to be thinking like, if they give me a little data, I can go a long ways with this. Yeah, No,
that's exactly right. I would very much hope that they would be classified data that they can conclusively in fair that it's not of national security importance, because anything interstellar doesn't really relate to national security, you know, spacecraft that move at the speed that we launched. It takes them millions to billions of years to get to us from distant stars, and they didn't have us in mind when they started the journey. Also, they don't care about how we split
the land on this earth among nations. It's not a matter of national security. Anything outside the Solar System should be scientific knowledge that is shared by everyone. And therefore, if the government is hiding something right now, they should definitely release If it's related to things beyond the Solar System, they should release it to the public so that scientists like myself can study them. Whether they have it or not, I don't know because they never shared it, but
I'm not. The other thing that is important is I'm not waiting for them to declassify either. There is a huge community of people who are just eager and waiting for the government to declassify materials. And you know, I decided to pursue the scientific method and just collect them the information myself, and that's the rationale behind the Galileo project. And I don't see a conflict with government.
I think that we are complimentary because they are not scientific organizations. So if they see something interested, they wouldn't know what to do with it, okay, and so that's why I think they should release it the scientific oman. But otherwise, you know, I don't I'm not telling them what to do, and I don't care what they do. I just try to you know, it's about time for us to be independent and collect the data ourselves.
Yeah. I think your book Interstellar also happens upon the education of the public, you know, being more open minded. Let's look for this, let's get more money behind it, Let's let's have a programming, let's do you know what it takes to become an interstellar civilization. But on that note, would you say that that we are kind of parent I think recently we had the government I think it was NASA Space Command asking the theologians how people
would react, how would they feel? I mean. And then the other problem, of course we've talked about this is Brooking's document that was written in nineteen sixty. I'm worried that they're still using that as a as a foundation for transparency and they feel that we're going to kill ourselves. I think that we're all like loving this idea, that's right, I mean, think about
let's imagine we are fourth century back in time. So imagine the Brooking sensitude asking theologians what they think about, you know, the fact that if the Earth is not at the center of the world, the center of the universe, how would the public react to that, and whether this should be disclosed? I mean, to me, it's a ridiculous question to ask, because you know, if people have problems adapting to reality, they should discuss it
with their therapists. Okay. I don't want to lose the ability to study reality just because it would cause, you know, stress to some people. Because the reason is simple. There were lots of theologians back during the days of Galileo who were happy to put him in house arrest so that his voice will not be heard, so that people will continue to think that we are
at the center of the universe. Okay, Now suppose they were. They would have been successful over the past four centuries, and we would not know that, you know, we are moving around the Sun. We would think the Earth is at the center, and then you know, NASA or Elon Musk would say, let's go to Mars. Okay, so then they will
start shooting rockets, and the rockets would never reach Mars. Why because in this model, Mars moves around the Earth, and it's just the wrong model, and we wouldn't understand gravity, you know, the way Isaac Newton pioneered. So in that picture where we are at the center of the world,
we just will never reach our destination in space. And so it serves a very practical purpose if you adapt to the reality without attending to what humans want it to be, because obviously we want to be at the center of the universe. That would have been much more flattering to our ego. But I don't care about the psychological stress that some theologians will encounter when they learn that the Earth moves around the Sun. That's not really because knowing the reality that
the Earth moves around the Sun helps us accomplish our goals in space. And also you know on Earth as well, if you realize what is the origin of the seasons and the unite variations and so forth. So once you know reality, it serves you because then you can adapt to it. But there is a tendency of humans to you know, follow some imagined reality because it's more flattering to us. And obviously one imagined reality like that would be to
say there is nobody else like us in the universe. We are alone.
That's an ordinary claim, and anything beyond that would be extraordinary. And I say that's exactly the opposite, because it's very arrogant of us to think that we are the only intelligent species that ever existed since the Big Bank, that Albert Einstein was the smartest scientists ever for billions of your that's organt, because there are billions of Earth Sun systems in the Milky Way galaxy alone, and just to imagine that we are so unique and special doesn't make sense to me.
What I find is that common sense is not common, unfortunately, And to me, the most common sensical thing to assume is that there are many things like us that existed before us, and we should then look for evidence. I mean, see if there are packages in our backyard that came from them. And that requires some effort. It's not a matter of opinion. There are lots of people who easily may argue about their opinions. This is
not a matter of opinion. This is a matter of searching for it, and you know, and finding out whether we have objects from other civilizations. And unfortunately, you know, even though it sounds straightforward. There aren't many people doing that, and I hope to change the climate, the intellectual climate within academia, because I think it's a natural thing to do. Yeah,
and you're you're doing it with these new tracking stations. Give you an area where you're tracking the heavens and you pick up a UAP and it is good size and it's not moving away from you, Your your team is seeing it. How do you how do you divulge that information? Yes, By the way, I always ask my post dogs every week when I meet with them, have you seen anything normally? Have you seen a UFO? Yeah?
I would like to know, because we do collect data. So but then, you know, once we see something really unusual and anomalous, then obviously we will have to verify to make sure that we're not being fooled, that it's not a drone, not an airplane, a balloon or a bird. And then we will eventually after verifying that using you know, all the information we have about our instruments. And by the way, it's a matter of the instruments recording it. It's not you looking at the sky and saying I
saw something. Because you can't trust the humans as you know, as much as the instruments, and we already see that from the Soccer World Cup, you know, the Women's Soccer World Cup, where a lot of decisions were by referees were made after looking at the video obtained by video camera and not asking the players what really happened. All the spectators and so instruments are really
key for scientific knowledge. And so once we verify that, then we'll bank it open, you know, make it available to the public, write a scientific paper that includes that the data and its interpretation, so you will be able to access that. And you know that that to me is the best approach, so people can then look at it, you know, just the
way we did with the materials from the meteor. We wrote a scientific paper and we released the information that we have as of now, and as we collect more and more information about the remaining spirrels, we will also release it. So I think my question, though, A V. Is that you're more on the observatory or observing side of it with this program. I'm wondering,
do you want to try to make contact? Oh obviously I would be happy to, but I mean, there's the protocol that you're setting up allows that, so My initial approach was to build the instruments that are pass you okay, so that do not engage no engagement the first thing, because you see, if if we engage before knowing that we are engaging with something from outside of this earth, that could be risky because suppose there is an airplane or a drone and we try to engage with it in one way or another,
we might be sued by you know, we might figure an accident of the drone or the airplane. So first we need to identify that we have something anomalous that is not human made or natural on Earth. Once we do, then it's an excellent question that you bring up by what to do next and so. But the philosophy for the first step is to be passive. That so, for example, we had to decide whether to have a radar system. But I didn't want the radar system to be active, want I
wanted it to be passive. So there are radio waves from television stations, from radio stations that are reflected of objects in the sky. That's what we're
trying to detect. We have a passive radar system. But then you know, if we do see something that is unusual, the question is what to do about it, And there is no protocol, and I prefer, you know, not to decide ahead of time, but the decide, you know, based on the evidence of what we you know, what we see, because when you have a visitor to your backyard, the response should depend on the the visitor. You know, if the visitor looks very sort of innocent.
The first thing I would like to know is what is that visitor seeking, what kind of information? What does it do, and how does it move around? And what kind of information is it seeking? And then we can decide what to do with it, how to communicate with it. And trying to figure out a language that would be common or figuring out the signals emitted by a functional device, you know, that would be a huge challenge. And maybe we'll use our own AI systems to figure out what their AI
systems are doing. Maybe you have a very powerful intention and you're intent for things are very very strong. It feels to me that you're intending for this action of a foreign of the identified act alien race to come to Earth in some form or another, and you want to happen soon, is what it feels like. Would you say that's an accurate statement. No. I mean,
if it's there, I want to see it. The point is, it's not up to me, right, So we are just like ants on the pavement, you know, looking around, and if a biker passes by, you know, we would say, well look at that. It's moving much faster than we can move. But you know, if no biker passes by, then there is no you know, no new evidence. And so I very much depend on whether this is part of the reality, part of the neighborhood. Whether I depend on whether we have neighbors. So I will
not find anything conclusive if if we don't have neighbors, you know. So I just but I just want to engage in the search because it was not done until recently. And that's you know, that's is what drives me. It's not so much believing that it must be there, but more or to do with you know, if we don't search, we will not find anything fantastic. The book's called Interstellar, The Search for Extraterrestrial Life and our Future
in the Stars. My guests today has been Avy lobe Avy as always wonderful, wonderful. I'm really so pleased to hear what we're what you're doing. I would love to see President Biden say, okay, Avy, you will be a representative when they come and visit us. But that would be an honor for me, Cliff. But what I really want the president, you know, I hope that it will happen in our lifetime. The President is saying during State of the Union address, my fellow Americans, we are not
alone. You know. That's the sent that I want to hear. Yeah, of course I'll be I will be the first to volunteer to figure out what these visitors want and how to communicate with them. Yeah. I think what you're saying is also we need to be funded in the billions of dollars to begin really doing a serious search exactly and only after we invested, you
know, billions of dollars in the search and not find any anything. Only then we would be exactly the same place as the search as for dark matter are right now, you know, so within the mainstream of physics, we've been searching for things like the dark meta, the nature of the dark matter. We haven't found it yet. And you know on this front that the public cares about the government cares about, you know, seeking packages in our
neighborhood from neighbors that was not funded. And so I do believe that if we had billions of dollars invested in this, we you know, it's just like taking a path that was not taken, you're likely to find some low hanging fruit. Yeah. I think education is here huge, and you have a lot of resistance, and you're doing fantastic work, aving much success on this new book, Interstellar, and let's talk again when you do your next Pacific Ocean dredging. Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.
It's so refreshing to speak with a public official. He's not really a public official. He's more of a trailblazer in the fact that when we have off world undidentified aerial phenomenon UFOs, whatever you want to call him, that we let people know what's going on. We don't try to cover it up. What I mean, I don't understand why NASA and Space Command start being more transparent. You know. This also goes for Mars and in the Moon
and all these revelations of civilization. It's just just beyond any common sense to hide it, you know, and Aby said it perfectly. If your mindset is is a fearfulness and the and the worry of being attacked at some point. Then your whole protocol is a skewed, unfriendly you know. I was reading this article that featured doctor Loebe and he actually describes how we're a shoot first, answer, ask questions later kind of a society and this is backwards,
you know. And in his book, and by the way, get his book Interstellar just came out. It's very well written and it really gets into the whole protocol that we are dealing with right now with our government. And it's not just the United States, it's Europe, it's England. I
don't really know how the Mexican and the South American government's approached it. I know they're much more more open to I think contact, and in fact, I think South America is having more contact where ships are coming lower to the ground hovering. Mexico is the same thing. More photographs, more videos is
taken of UAPs than in America, and they're much better photographs too. So anyhow, long story short, Avy is really breath of fresh air, and I would like to see his UAP program at Harvard growth to the point where we are seeing more ships, we're seeing the next level of contact and let's
stop this clandescent action where everything has to be classified top secret. So his view also was that, you know, if they began capturing UAPs with his facilities, his UAP detection protocol, and they analyze it and release it to the public, maybe that will force them to the government to release more data. Now. I thought it was interesting that he and it was very revealing that he was talking about this military intelligence release of data and basically saying that
we have in our possession UFOs and they're being studied. I love that, and I hope it continues. And you know, if you just let them know that we know, maybe they'll release more data. Maybe they'll release the information on these ships. I'm more doubtful of that than anything else, because that would really, I mean, it would be so fantastic and maybe embarrass them. I don't know. I'm kind of on the fence about them releasing information on these ships. I don't know why we can't have one of these
rovers bump into a temple on Mars. We see pictures of staircases and buildings and stuff like that. Let's let's start something easy, you know, I think what LOBE is doing is easy too, just like, hey, this is these are UAPs. They're not from our world, They're from interstellar or
space. That's a good starting part. But I also think that archaeological ruins on another planet is also a good place to be and kind of really lets people know, lets them in on the information without having to see an alien. So lots to think of, and I really appreciate shade Avy joining me. He is such a pleasure, such a breath of fresh air. And I'm aware that he is dealing with a lot and it must be very stressful
to have to deal with the government in the manner that he does. But if what he says is true and he's able to release data to the general public of a significant nature, I think that's a starting point, starting point for all of us. Disclosure. It's all about disclosure. Fun. Hey Earth Ancients does tours, and I gotta tell you, we've been doing tours since twenty eighteen. We have a blast. We go to Mexico, we go to Egypt every year. We are now going to Turkey in August of
twenty twenty four. We still have one or two spaces on our annual Mexico tour that's going to be in November, November tenth through the seventeenth. We all meet in Villa Harmosa and we see Leventa. This is the this is the ancient Omec city, and this is where many of these gigantic basalt heads are located, as well as a number of megalithic sculptures. We're going to be there for a day and then we bust. I think it's a couple of hours away to Polank and Polank is the site of one of the largest
and most sophisticated Mayan cities that will visit. Our host is doctor Edwin Barnhard. We're there with him on one opening day, and then the second day we get the archaeological view, which is off limits to the general public. He will show us the unexcavated ruins that no one gets to see. That's going to be a blast. We'll go to Bottom Peck the following day and two other locations. This is a short one week tour November tenth to seventeenth.
Come out and join us. For more information in the itinerary, go to Earth Ancients dot com forward slash tours. I think we're at twenty two people. I think we'll take a couple more. If you want to join us, go ahead and sign up now. I made a recent announcement. We're doing our Grand Egyptian Tour. It's April twenty eighth through May ninth. I think we're half full right now. But this is a real world class tour. I talk about it all the time. You get there. As
soon as you hit the airport in Cairo, everything's handled. Everything's handled from start to finish. We see multiple pyramids, temples, buildings, museums. It is a blast. It is eye opening and it is fantastic. For more information and all the details, including an itinerary, go to Earth Ancients dot com, Forward Slash Tours, check it out. It's a great tour and we're filling up fast. I gotta mention this too. Most of these
tours are around ten to twelve thousand dollars. It's just insane what they want, and it doesn't have to be that much. Our tours are right around five thousand US. But everything is covered. Everything. As soon as you get there, you are treated like an ambassador from your state or your country, and you are treated like royalty. It's a great tour. Up the
food, the beverages, the tour, the friendships. It's just really, really really great and I encourage everyone to come out and do our Grand Egyptian Tour April twenty eight through May ninth. Wonderful Tour twenty twenty four. By the way, Okay, finally we just announced Turkey. Turkey is going to be in August. Still don't have the details yet, but if you want to go to Turkey, it's twelve days exploration. We're gonna see gobeck Be,
Teppi, Kahan, Teppi, Darren Kuru. We're gonna see a lot of the outdoor temples that are recently excavated, the museums in Istanbul or Fantastic. We will see some of the most intriguing and ancient sites you can ever imagine. It's the first time we've been there. I've never been to this part of Turkey, and we're looking forward to it. If you want to join us, send me an email Earth Ancients for you at gmail dot com and say Cliff, I'd like to join you and I want more information.
I'll get it out to you. Get that to me quickly. It's funny because I've been getting emails from many of our older poor guests who want to join us. So again, for more information to me an email to Earth Ancients for you at gmail dot com. I'll get you the information pretty quickly. I'm hoping to have it before the end of the month and we'll get to you as soon as we can. So Earth Ancients tours are last.
We make them as reasonable as possible, and everything's covered. And you know, we travel in luxury, we fly, we bust, and we tour. It's a great time. All right. That's it for this program. I want to thank my guest today, doctor av Lobe, coming to us from Harvard University. As always, the team of Ruth Thomas, Mark Foster, and Chris Hazel. Thank you for your great help and you guys rock all right, take care of be well and we will talk to you next time.