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All right, guys, welcome backr Lisia. You have a very special episode.
Yeah we're back again.
Yeah for sure. So the thing wither Lisias, that we try to cover every area of business and finance, and there's always something just when you think you covered something, that's always crazy it's to cover. So today's going to be something that we haven't covered at all yet.
Now, I mean it's like one of them topics that we don't ever even think about. Really, I scratched my head thinking About'm like, oh damn, yeah, now there's money in that. Okay, it's money. It's money and everything for sure.
So we have a very special guest today, Chantelle Callaway. First and foremost, thank.
You, Welcome, welcome, so blessed to be here. Thank you guys.
Yes, so the creator of Rhyme Antics, which is a board game based around hip hop that promotes uh literacy.
Correct, Yes, that's exactly what it is.
I love that education.
Yeah. So she's been all over the place. I see you have Black Enterprise, right up, congratulations, the Breakfast Club, and then he was on Brilliant Idiots as well, right I.
Was, yeah, moving shout out to Charlotte.
Now this is the full circle.
Now I always wanted to be here, That's what I'm talking about.
Yeah. So, yeah, so it's a really big deal. She's one of id some you one of only three black board game designers to make it to big box.
No, I'm one of three Black Toy Black Toy company owners to ever get into. But Lonnie Johnson is an inventor, and doctor Johnson has a game company. But then I have a game.
As well, the super Soaker fans. Oh yeah, a bunch of those.
And then we're gonna talk about your target deal that you just closed.
On, Big time, big town.
Amazing for sure.
So twenty has been great so far, it's.
Gonna keep going.
So back up a little bit, all right, So what made you want to do? First of all, can you just explain briefly, like what exactly is the game like in detail?
Absolutely so. Rhyme Antics is a dope party game. It's also a classroom game. And so it's a vocabulary game inspired by hip hop where you have to rap in proper English. So you have to spit bars in proper English and two teams rap battle in like a cipher setting, and it's like facilitated by what you call the scorekeeper, who kind of is like the MC between the two teams battling. But you just got spit bars in proper
English while you listen to these music instrumentals. Is really fun, but it's very challenging because it makes you think and use your brain, which is something a lot of us aren't doing these days.
So you can bring us into the classroom.
Oh absolutely, yeah, a lot of teachers are using it just to engage the kids. I actually created a curriculum around the game, and I teach literacy programming at boys and Girls clubs.
Oh nice, Is you have background in education, No, it's not.
I'm just I was a scholar. Like in school. I did very well in school, and I always was an avid reader, and I always had like an affection with like words. I love words, I loved vocabulary. It was like my favorite subject in school. And then I'm a hip hop head.
So we got that in coming.
Yes, yeah, I'm a huge hip hop head. So you know, lyrical geniuses really fascinate me and inspire me. And so I created the game for the inn wrapper and all of us because I have no bars.
So the game is mostly based to help English.
Right, Yes, definitely, yep.
And okay, so what was the process of actually getting a game up and running. A lot of time people have ideas in the head and it could be a variety of different things. But It's one thing to have an idea, and it's a no thing to actually bring it to market and actually have a product. So what's the process from Okay, I think this is a good idea to where you're at now.
So first it was like an idea, just an idea that sat in my family for about seven years. My dad came up with this call and response rap game during Thanksgiving, and we as a family were just really tired of playing like Taboo and Catchphrase, right, because we'd been playing those games for years and they're fun, but
you know, we just was tired of it. So my dad, who's an amazing creative genius, kind of came up with this call and response rap game, and every time we got together thereafter as a family, we always wanted to play the game because we have so much fun playing it, right.
And then so it sat in the family for a long time, and I believe it was when Words with Friends came out and I started to pay attention to like the game market in the industry, and I saw how much obscene amounts of money that they were making like Words.
With Friends, and how much money did they make.
Oh my god, they were making like two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a day just hop downloads and what's words were friends?
You don't remember that? No, that game was crazy.
It was like crap scrabble. It's a digital version of scrabble.
Yeah, I still remember my high school I nowhere. It was like two D and sixty nine points.
Yeah, it's like it's really fun and engaging. You can play it on cross platforms talking with your friends. And I was like, but wait, this is just Scrabble and a digital version. And then they came out with draw something which was pitchionary as a digital version, and that
was killing them. And then you know, it's really when the games online, mobile app games really started to bubble, and I started like thinking, like, okay, all these games that are coming out are really just reiterations of things that already exist. There was nothing really new. And then I started researching board games and I saw that everything had kind of just been around for a really really
long time. There was no real innovation until I believe the game Cards Against Humanity came out and then you saw like a kind of a resurgence of like this fun party game. And so it's interesting because the board game market specifically has been on a steady increase over the past five years. So when people is a very viable market.
I mean it's interesting because like when I think when especially this generation is things games, they think in video games, but you looked at it and said, now I'm gonna go in this route, and I think one of the reasons for the rise. And maybe I'm wrong, but it's like that brings families together.
Absolutely, you know.
I mean, like it's just not like the thanks and everything, like everybody has a game night, So to have something like this where you tie hip hop in is super.
Dope, right, And so you know, I used to be an event planner prior to you know, starting this journey, and that's really one of my passions is like to see people have a good time together. And then the learning aspect of it was like, okay, so what's better than having people laugh and learn at the same time. That's pretty dope, especially in an era where like, you know, cell phones are really corrupting our brains and we're not
really learning. Our ability to retain information is really decreasing, and so like you know, you have to actually tap into your cognitive skills, fluid intelligence, and think and so it becomes challenging, but it's really fun.
That is I mean, we got to use proper English. That's pretty challenging, all right.
So you're come with the idea it's in the family, but what's the next steps to actually make it into the business.
So so it's crazy. So it was just idea. Then it was a word document that I just like started to I, really, this is God working through me, okay, because I have no experience whatsoever. I went to school for marketing, but as far as game development, I went and bought maybe like ten games, all different games, and I just kind of laid them out, looked at the how to play, the methodology, and then I just started researching,
like how to create a game? The thing is whatever you want to create, Like there's so much information online. There's really no excuse of why someone can't do something because everything's online. You know, a general blueprint of how to do it, and then you just modify as you go.
But really it was like the methodology on the how to play, and then I just started putting together and then I started organizing these focused groups with just friends and family, different people whoever would have me Like I was just calling people. So I organized over a period of like three years, maybe like seventy focus groups. I would just host house parties. I would crash parties. I would bring the game. I'd ask people if they would play. The crazy thing is did not look like this. It
was in a shoebox. The packaging was terrible. The music I had it on this big bulky microphone thing.
In my mind, I'm drawing this up. But it comes chante with a shoebox and a speaker inside. Yes, So this is why your event planning comes into play, right, you're organizing people with a prototype. Are you looking at you like you're crazy? Never?
They were always really receptive, and I mean I believe that's one of the things that made me keep going like I have something, because I would really, you know, people had a great time, and so they'd be like, you really had something, And then I would have them fill out a little survey like what did you think, what would you change? What would you you know? And so at the end of like three years, as I kept going, I had a big stack of what I needed to change, and I would just modify it as
I go. And then when I moved to New York in twenty fourteen. So I moved to New York with the sole purpose of like just growing the business and really taking it to the next level, because I had hit a ceiling in Boston, where I'm from, and I just felt like I couldn't grow there. So I was like, this is a game for hip hop. I'm moving to New York, the birthplace of Yeah. I was like, I gotta go to New York because that's where it's gonna blow. And so I moved here and just things started happening
for me. So it's really been a great blessing. So anyway, I'm still in prototype phase when I moved to New York and then, I mean I moved here with absolutely nothing. I don't know if other people heard my story, but I moved here with I left a very comfortable situation in Boston to move here with nothing. I was like stayed in shelter. And I found this really dope accelerator program that had all these different pitch competitions, and they, you know, prepared me for the pitch competitions and I
want all of them. And so I was able to get some seed capital to hire a professional packaging designer and she just so happened to have worked for Hasbro.
Can we talk about what a pitch competition is?
Yeah?
Absolutely, yeah, So like what how do you find them? Like, what is what is the preparation for? What is that like going through it?
So pitch competitions are everywhere you can go on like for any entrepreneur trying to like just see if their business has any feasibility. There are meetups in every state, So meetup dot com. That's where I discovered these different like pitch meetups. And they'll always be investors there who will give you feedback, just like shark Tank little mini shark Tank events in every state, And like I said, meetup dot com you can find them right on there.
That's where I found them. And the way you prepare is you watch a lot of Shark Tank. That's what I did, No, you know, honestly, watching shark Tank is really what prepared me.
So a lot of nights in the mirror, like preparing, yes, and just.
You know, there's a lot of information online, especially now after shark Tank's been so successful, Like I had the perfect pitch, how short it should be, how quick you know, how quick you have to engage and just you know, tell the investor the problem you're trying to solve, and you know why you're the solution. And so you know, my angle was there's nothing like this board games or recession proof, you know, like all those things that are unique about the product. Yeah, and I won three of them,
and it was it was just super dope. And like I said, I was able to get enough money.
To how much money did you get.
Over twenty thousand? Okay, I won three different competitions and it was accumulative of about twenty thousand dollars and I was able to hire a professional packaging developer who worked for Hasbro, and then I had this professional packaging And then the next step was I did an indiego go campaign because I was I was sure at that point, like I officially have a product I can sell and bring to the marketplace and I know it will sell.
Can you just explain what indigogo is.
Yeah, So indiego go is like Kickstarter. It's a crowdfunding campaign where you test out your idea or your product to see if there's a need for it, like if people will actually buy it. People you don't know, because we know your family and friends are gonna support you, maybe right, And a lot of times friends and family
can be biased because they love you. But these this is for people who don't know you, you know, who actually are really might be interested in the product you have, and it really tests to see to give you some successful traction, and that's what it did. So I just want to really speak to people about crowndfunding campaigns. They're really really important. That's really the first step before you go out there and put a bunch of money into something you don't know it's gonna work, you know what
I mean. So you got to organize a campaign. There's a lot of planning that goes into that. I mean, it took me maybe like eight months to prepare for that of just gathering people's information. All the people I focused group tested. I had all their emails and just different events, I had people networking. I had saved so much maybe like two thousand names, and so that was really like the core of my.
So I like, I like the idea that you said that you did the focus groups, going back to that because that's something I even like major corporations do. But it's like you got to be creative as an entrepreneur, So to start out small and to say, okay, well I have friends and family in the area, and I'll just have like house parties you see that, like with jewelry stuff like that, and it's like you're actually testing it and hopefully you get like honest feedback and then
you can kind of tweak it. That's people pay millions of dollars for market research. What is market research before? And that's important to a lot of times people have idea and they just go to the public with it, but it's not tested yet, So you're testing it in the small sample size before you're actually taking it. And then I like the idea that you said that you kept the data. Were talking about data a lot kept
the data everybody. So now when you finally have it worked out, you can reach out to those people to see if they want to support financially. Right, because you know them and they've already you know, tried the product out, so they'll probably be more receptive to financially support than somebody that doesn't know what they've never heard of it before.
Right.
Do you have a team or are you doing this all independent? Because it sounds like a lot it's.
A lot sometimes I think back of like how far I've come and how much work I've actually done, because people like you deserve, you know, the success you're having now, You've worked really hard, and I'm just like, you know, a lot of times it didn't feel like work because it's my passion, so it's felt like, you know, just good.
But when I think about how much work I've actually, like those years of those focus groups, you know, having no money, all the chicken I baked for those house parties, you know, shout out to my sister helped me with the chicken. But you know, just I've put so much work, in time, sweat, equity into it in my own capital obviously, But what was the question s, So.
How much money were you able to raise from Indiegogo?
Eleven thousand dollars and so I pre sold my goal was ten That's always kind of a good place to start ten thousand. A lot of people see these crowdfundings campaigns who have like raised millions of dollars and that's like they put so much money into the marketing for those things. But a good rule of them is kind of start at the ten thousand level. And again, having that data a core you know, list of people who you know will probably support the product is really good,
and then just the right commercials. A lot of things that go into it, the planning process, so never never just think you're gonna throw up a video and a bunch of people. The money is gonna come falling in and a win.
So you had to make a commercial.
Yes, had to make a.
How did you do that? What was the process for doing that?
I hired a videographer.
I just did it.
I wrote everything, you guys everything. I'm a wonder woman, so you can check it out. It's still up on YouTube. But I organized people. I like did this scene where I crashed a game night and I took the cards out their hand and I was like, nah, y'all need this. It was so corny, but it was funny and but like it really got a response out of people. So I ended up pre selling three hundred units of the game based on just one prototype that I had.
So on indiegg it's like a million different things. So how do you get placed?
Like you place yourself? You just uploaded as far.
As all right, I go to Indiegogo, like I assume the most popular, the ones with the most tractions come in the first page or the like you type in like game or is it like under categories stuff.
Like categories category it's board games, then there's video games, and they have toys and they have projects they have It's basically like what's that GoFundMe, but for businesses, so you could do a GoFundMe too. People have done that. But Indiegogo specifically and Kickstarter are where you know, most
like products launch. But the difference between Kickstarter, which is way more well known than indiego go is a Kickstarter has all money in rule where like you have to raise that fundraising goal or all the money goes back to the backers. Even if you're like a dollar under your goal, all the money will go back if you didn't raise your goal. Indiegog you get to keep all the money you raise.
And they become equity partners. Right, No, they're not. It's not.
There are a couple of other crowdfunding I believe sites that do take equity, but not not Indiegogo or Kickstarter.
So it's just support. Did they get anything for it? They do get a percentage, yes, a percentage of the game.
They get a percentage of the total amount that you raise.
So like if you raise ten thousand and three something like that.
No, no, no, Indigogo took a percent.
People that pay, they're just paying support they actually get.
So there's different levels. Sorry I skip that part. So there's different levels of backing packages that you offer to your people. So it might for five dollars you get a thank you for you know, a dollar, you get a shot out on whatever. And then I had you could get one game. Some people got two games, two games and a tea shirt. The thousand dollars level was four games, and then I would give a small donation to the Boys and Girls Club. So I had a
philanthropic edge to it. And so that's how you design your packages that you know to best intrigue your your backers.
I guess, okay, so you raised a ten thousand, You had a twenty thousand originally which helped you. Then you raise additional ten thousand. Yes, now you're like thirty thousand that you raised, So what happens after that?
I'm living in New York and I'm.
So what happened after that? So after that? After so I had a rough time. So after the campaign was over, now was manufacturing right? And so finding the manufacturer. So if you've ever manufactured a product or tried to get a product developed in the US, you know, the pricing compared to China is like a huge, huge difference, right, So for me to produce this product here in US would be about fifteen dollars a unit versus China, where it's five. So I had to find a manufacturer in
China who was like and I was recommended. Thank god. I had like a kind of an agent at the time who was trying to help me shop the game for a licensing deal, and so he knew people and he introduced me to a great manufacturer in China, and I just got really lucky. But I did everything, which is crazy, via email, never had one conversation with these people to come up with the proper specs and everything I wanted, And it was really seamless.
Dealing with those was a quick process.
Yeah, it was very quick. They send you a sample and then you go back and forth about you know, the specifics you want, and then you come up with the final product.
What.
It took a whole year though to get the indie Go Go packages to my people though, because this game has so much copy in it that we kept finding mistakes, and every time I found a mistake, I would have to you know, stop the production process, have my graphic designer fix it recent and so it was like that was a real like tedious nightmare, and so we finally kind of got it right. And you know, sometimes I still find little errors once in a while and I'll
just fix it. I'm just being honest, like little tiny ones. I'm very detailed oriented. But it's like this game has over two thousand words in it, you know alone, and then just all that. But these are the things a lot of people don't know. There's plenty of products on shelves.
There's like little that's the update division. We got the update.
Division, right, Yeah, this is perfect now. So anything you get now is perfect.
So when you first started selling, you was selling it direct to consumer online.
Or yeah, I was direct to consumer online, yep. And then I started immediately like going after stores. So like I got into a couple of stores in New Jersey, I think was my first retailer, and then I was in Boston and then you know, now I'm in forty five stores now.
So when you go to stores, how does that work? Is it? Like on consignment or they have to buy it from you.
They buy it from me. Case order ten units is the minimum, and you know, I really try to push two units on a store, but you know you could when you have like when you're shopping it to like chain stores like Newberry Comics, who's one of my biggest chain stores right now. They buy a couple of cases per store, So that's when the money starts to come to the cases selling, you know, and they're going through them and they're reordering.
That's now you're shipping those out yourself. Correct, So you're a distributed everything.
I'm the wonder woman.
So you're getting it from China. What's the turnaround time for that?
Forty five days days? I was like, okay, yeah, so let me tell you this. Last Christmas late on the on getting it in. So for holiday you have to have your orders into China by like June in order to get it here on time for October because everybody's
shipping at that time. And so this past year I missed the mark and so I had to have the games shipped to California, picked up by a truck and transport it here to Jersey in order to get it here in fourteen days, because if it ships to the east side, to the East coast from China, because it has to go around Africa, it takes a full month to do that.
Oh wow, So how is it now with the coronavirus?
I'm thinking now, like, yeah, so that's funny you ask. I think a lot of companies are going to be affected by it. But my manufacturer, who I just touched base with a couple of days ago, said that they're fine so far.
Ok.
Yeah, but you know, I can imagine if it really gets out of control that it might be a problem for some other business.
Yeah. I mean if it does, it is doing manufacturer here in the States an option for you, or it's going.
To try to I can't even think of that now.
So that's that brings up a broader point because a lot of times people, especially like the political season and like apple things of that nature. I remember a few years ago and like it's like bring jobs back to America, produce stuff in America. I remember I forgot who it was, but I think it was I think it was with Tim Cook or one of these guys, and he was saying impossible, like you can't we can't because the cost in China and Asia, it's not even possible, like to
make a profit in America is so much higher. Yeah, that's true on your level.
So I mean, you know, at five thousand units I order these, I'm paying like, you know, four dollars landed here delivered.
Yeah, shipping and everything.
Shipping and everything. Yeah, So if if I were to get this produced here, like I told you, the starting price is fifteen dollars per unit versus four.
Not including shipping, not including so you're looking like twenty twenty dollars.
So I would yeah, and so I would have to charge my customer, you know, fifty exact.
That's what I'm thinking, like that the price of the game is gonna have.
To go up, right, which no one's going to buy the game for fifty dollars.
It's gonna be a tough sell.
Yeah, So I feel bad for whoever may be affected. But let's hope it gets contained and we don't have these issues.
Yeah. Yeah, Well it's something like I said some other thing on a broader scale tool for businesses, like we have to find a way to compete because it's not going to happen and more and more products is just gonna be made an Asia and China because it just makes sense financially. I mean, it just is what it's trying to make a profit. Yeah, it's it's like it's no brainer. All right. Well, in the next second, we're going to talk about the business behind gaming industries. A billion dollar industry.
Yeah, I think we've all been part of it.
Yeah, something that people should be aware. All right, So you know, I talk something about the business, but I had a question. So, yeah, you said that big what is big box?
What is that big box? Are you know your targets Walmarts, Barns and Nobles, Okay, the huge department retail stores.
Yeah, okay, so there's only three black game makers.
That are in so uh no. So when it comes to the board game category, I'm the first black female board game inventor with a provisional patent. So I've gotten some backlash with people say, no, my homegirl invented a game, and I'm like, okay, well I've never seen her game. And if you did not do the work to get it in stores, to get a patent, to do everything you need to do to get the exposure and to make it a real product, then I'm sorry, we're gonna just argue about that.
I mean, I'm like thinking about that, Like the intellectual property, So how long did that process take and what exactly did you trademark and make it?
So I have three protections on this. So it's copy written. That means every single word you see has been copywritten, submitted to the database of copywritten literary pieces individually. Well, the so the how to play.
No, okay, I'm saying, like not eat in the cards.
So all the cards in there, and the how to play document that's copy written. I own it. My name is on it. You can't plage your eyes or duplicate it. And then there's a provisional patent. And so there's there's two types of patents you can get on a product. It's a utility patent or design patent. And so a provisional patent is the first step which protects you for
a full year. It's very cheap for a small business with not a big budget, like a poor man's patent basically, and you can keep renewing your pal patent year after year after year for a very small price just to protect your invention. And so I recommend that to everybody. And this is something like I did all on myself because I like to read. And so you know, a lot of times we waste a lot of money paying folks to do things where we can really just do
it ourselves if we just read. And so that's why I am a huge advocate for literacy because a lot of service businesses make money off like people's laziness to not want to read, you know. And so it's provisionally patent. It has a copyright and it has a trademark.
So what's what's provisionally patent?
That's the temporary one that you have to renew every single year. Okay, okay, And so like I don't know if you watch Shark Tank, but you'll you'll often see hear people say I have it's patent pending, which is the same thing. It's a provisional patent. Even on products. Sometimes you'll see patent pending, and that just means they have a provisional patent on the product.
Does it have become.
Yes, it can if you want to. And that's like that costs a lot more erners.
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It's money to turn it in, and it's very long. It can take like five to.
Seven years to make it permanent.
To make it permanent, yeah, I don't know why it takes that long. I guess they go through the whole database to make sure it's really, you know, unique in your product. But a provisional pattern really is fine to protect sixty five dollars.
Yeah, you did it yourself.
No, I did it myself.
You read the globook.
A trademark also, yes, I did the trademark myself. And people should know. Also, when you're trademarking a product, there's two. There's a state level trademark and then there's a national trademark that's permanent. And so I have a national trademark through the government and it gets published in what's called the gazette and that's where like any company can just type your name in the database and it comes up.
What about globally? So like if you said the national obviously, so like somebody in London decides to come up with it.
Not protected overseas, that's.
Not don't try that, right, We're coming to London. We're going to be sure.
And I do worry about that, honestly, because you know, I made my Chinese manufacturer sign an NDA. Don't I don't know people like, oh, they won't even protect you. If they want to do it, they'll do it. But it's like I've made them sign DX and you will not you know, duplicate this.
We see that happen a lot in clothes for sure, Like people who create clothes here and we don't trademarket in every country and pops up in another country, it's like, oh that's mine, Well they protected in that country.
Yeah. I think clothes are a lot easier than a product. But if I see this game bootleg selling on Canal, we got.
A problem street the street.
So you got to deal with Target, right I did? Can you talk about that?
Big bodes so excited. So yeah, Target just committed last week to four hundred store tests this June. And it's really exciting for me because, as I mentioned, I am one of three black Toy Company and the Toy space who have ever made it to Big Box. So the Lonnie Johnson, the doctor, Lisa Williams, she had a doll line. I think I said games, but she has a doll line. Lonnie Johnson invented the super Soaker, and I invented this
dope game, and so it's really exciting. One of the things I spoke to Black Enterprise about was like the fact that you know, black owned businesses occupy less than one percent of the space and Big Box, and it's like, are we just not, you know, trying to get in there, or are we being shut out or like and I really don't know the answer. I just know when I started developing the product, that was always my goal was to get in Big Box and.
Achieve that Big Box. So you said it's two year process, but it has a lot to do with when you submit and to be a part of the Big Box company, right.
Yeah. So I won a pitch competition with Target and they flew me down to Dallas and I got to pitch the whole Target team and they really loved it, and so it's a deal two years in the making that that just closed. And so I'm just I couldn't be more grateful for the opportunity. Just like when I walk in Target, and I because I used to go and Target in the in the developing process and just stand in front and manifest and be like, my game is going to be on these shoves. I sort of guys crazy.
I would just start putting it up on the shelf.
Yeah.
I have pictures back in the day on my Facebook of me putting the game on the shelf and saying game nights.
You know, next big game, I try that new game on that shelf.
So so how does that work? As far as like the distribution, they it's the same thing as the store. They just buy in bulk more or yeah, you have to day, how does that work?
They buy it in bulk from a distributor, So I have to work through a distributor. Big Boxes don't buy directly from you. You have to work with a distributor who knows all the compliances and the shipment and you know it. It's like all this paperwork process.
Then distributed it gets a portion correct. Okay, so it's it still getting shipped from China the same same factory or different factory. Now same factory, except for now it's just you're not involved in that process anymore. It's going from the factory to the distributor correct okay, and then the distributor is distributing it to Target. Correct okay. So how do they do do they?
Like?
See, like how it does that? First they give you a commitment that we're gonna buy this amount first, and then what do you mean all right, this is like we want to buy five thousand games? Right? Do they do that all a front? Or they say, okay, we buy a first thousand See I.
Oh got what you're saying now. Yeah. So they they submit a po for a certain quantity and you have to deliver, and then after the delivery is when you get paid. So it's not even like you get a check right after the purchase order. And some companies are like ninety days, but I think Target is like one hundred and twenty days. Yeah, big boxes, The bigger you get, the longer it takes for you to get your money. Ain't that's something?
So what's the what's the success? Like we will be a success as far as like seventy percent of them of the game sell eighty like what's.
Looked at for one hundred. I mean they have to they have to be moving quickly in order for them to reorder. And that's the point. You want them to order quickly. And so, so what happens is your distributor keeps a large quantity on deck so that when the order sells out from target, they can just fulfill quickly. So the distributor buys from me a larger quantity than what Target is purchasing, so that they always have enough to replenish.
What about licensing in the toy industry, I know that there's like the big four like Hasborough, tel Lego and who else. So in the game space, is that something you you've ever thought about?
Well, yeah, I've actually been offered to licensing deals that I turned down this past summer twenty nineteen. I was so that the big game companies are spin Masters actually second to Hasbro, and they offered me a licensing deal and I did not take it because I'm a new product and you know, my sales weren't extraordinary enough for me to have a lot of leverage with that negotiation. And so and I just believe in myself that I
can do it. But when in the beginning a licensing deal is not going to be lucrative because they're totally just like trying to, I feel take advantage even though they have the distribution, the worldwide distribution. They do have it, and it would have been, you know, a great opportunity if the numbers worked. But I'm somebody who like believes in myself and my abilities, so I believe, like I can sell a million units on my own, and so that's what then then I'll have more negotiating power.
That is going to be different then, right.
Nice thoughts as far whereas some people will say, like everything should be got direct to consumer because obviously when you get bigger, like you said, now you got a distribution, you got to switch some profits with them. So was that something that you thought about or it was like a no brain in once target, It's like I got to go through this.
I mean, director consumers is great, and it really is the bread and butter because that's where your margins are at, you know what I mean, Like you make the most selling direct cutting out all those people, but the big boxes where you get you know, fifty thousand units at one time. I mean, that's that's crazy. So I like to spread it, you know what I mean. I like to walk into a store and see my product in a store like I did. That's that's us right there,
because it's for the culture, it's for the community. It's a black owned product. So it means a lot for me to be able to see that and do that and show other people that it can be done.
So if you sign to like one Big box, is it like exclusive? Like can you go to Walmart now? Or you can go in Target?
I can Okay, there's no exclusivity in it. No, no, just hit a lip with the box. So this has been a ten year journey, not always ups, a lot of downs, and a few times you thought like I'm done with this, I can't do this anymore. You want to talk about some of the pitfalls.
You've had, yeahs, Yeah, there have been a lot. So there was four times I can think of where I was I was really ready to quit, like completely give up, I like shelf the game, or I was just like done because you know, ten years is a long time. And even though you know I've always had the passion for it really working with the kids is really what has kept me going because my program. I mentioned that I run at the Boys and Girls Club. When I work with kids, it's just the kids are my happy place.
I love children. So playing with the kids and seeing them, you know, and gage and getting excited and you know, come to my program and be excited to play and learn, that's really rewarding for me. But I would say though, the most, the deepest time, like when I was really gonna give up last time was last year. And I
was in twenty nineteen, right before Nipsey Hustle died. I had just finished a real estate my real estate classes, so I was going to be a real estate agent, and I was like I'm done with this, you know, cause the year before I had some issues with inventory again, I didn't get my inventory was my inventory was stuck in customs for two months and I didn't get it out and it was just some random thing, like I didn't do anything wrong. It was just like some random things.
Someone didn't do their job, and I actually had to go in there and do their job for them and to get my shit released. And I was like just done because my inventory didn't get released until two days after Christmas, so I had missed the whole holiday, and none of my retailers had product, and they were like,
what's going on. It just made me look so bad, you know, And I was just like done because at that point too, you know, like I've been broke for a very long time, you know, just putting everything I have into the business and making it work. And so I was going to be a real estate agent and I was done with the product. And I swear like every time I've wanted to give up, like God will just throw me these lifelines like out of the blue, like no, like this is here, which this is what
you're here to do. And so I Nipsey Hustle died and I already knew who Nipsey was because I am a hip hop head and I had heard him and like a lot of motivational stuff, but I didn't get a chance to look at that, like to listen to the album. And when he died, obviously I got to
listen to the album. And that album like fired me in a whole nother level that I had never been, Yeah, that had never been inspired like dedication and young niggas like the like I mean, it's just like I always get emotional when I think about it because I remember like where I was at, like spiritually, how I felt, and then how the album made me just like get back on it and be like, Okay, I'm gonna do this.
I'm here to do this. And I met Charlemagne the God like two weeks later, and then like life has just been really great since then.
He's been a supporter, right.
Yeah, he's a big supporter of the game. He's like he's helped me so much just because he believes in the product. He believes in me, and he's just been a big, big supporter and how you meet him. So I used to be a bartender for this catering.
Like seven jobs a.
Yeah. So I was a bartender for this high end catering company in New York and we only, you know, did like really five star events in the city. And so every event we did there was always like celebrities there, and I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna take these because we're not because they're always high profile.
They always tell us we can't do certain things, you know, because a lot of people I work with, they're like actors and actresses and everybody's always trying to get on, you know, and so I was like, you know what, I'm just going to bring my game to every event I work and see if something happens. So the Dad met Charlemagne, it was a radio City Hall event. I think it was like the YouTube Awards or something. And I actually, I don't even think he knows this that
I was working like I was working. I was a bartender in the far and I was like, yo, that's Charlot Mane. I left my post. I was like, I might get fired today, I don't care. And I went downstairs and you should have seen how many stairs. I don't know if you haven't been a Radio City on music Hall, but there's mad steps and I had to go all the way to the basement back up. I ran down, got the game, came back up and walked
up on him and just like pitched him. And I was like, you know, I really love to come on the Brilliant Idiots and talk about I wanted to say the Breakfast Club, but I was like, he ain't gonna have me on that. I'm not that big yet, you know.
But I was like, you know, I really would love to come talk about my product and he was like he was like okay, yeah, and I was like, you know, I've met a lot of celebrities before, so I didn't know if he was if he was bsing me or not, but he gave me his number, like right on the spot. We exchanged personal information.
I was like, oh shit, he's not playing He's walking with me and I that was like so real, and I just really appreciate him for that because when after that interview aired, I sold like four hundred units the next day and then every day after that.
It just started trinkling down. But I mean that interview alone with nothing else, got me through like the whole summer with sales, consistent sales, and it's just crazy the power of like what an interview can do and the power of his influence.
Yeah, and that's that's a great story because it's like a lot of times people are scared or they just you know, make it. They psyche themselves out and they had like this person's not going to want to listen to me whatever. One it's like worst possible case scenario.
You just you're back to the way you originally started. It's like they just brush you off and it's like all right, but you would have never spoken to them anyway, right, But best possible case scenario could be changed, life changing man.
And it really was. And I really encourage people just you know that the fear is what prevents us from always moving and moving on things or doing things. And I know one of my biggest character characteristics, one of the best ones that has gotten me to where I am, is I'm very fearless, like.
I'll do apparently. Yeah.
So I used to direct that energy in the wrong way, but I'm directed it the right way, and I just, like you know, I go for it. And I've hardly ever been told no in my life, and I always I come from a place of yes, so I always believe someone's going to tell me yes.
There you go. So you are also the publisher of this game. Now we spoke to ash Cash. I tell brother, ask Cash about publishing the book. What's the difference. What is the process of publishing an actual game?
So publishing really isn't that much different from like, like licensing. If someone offers you a licensing deal, publishing deal, they're all like weight like vehicles for another company to get your product out to the masses. But when you self publish. It's just you're doing everything on your own. So I'm the marketer, i am the I'm the everything. I'm the CEO, I'm the CFO, I'm the COO and all that for the game. And so I don't really need anybody like that.
I do need a team, and so I'm working on that right now, like a marketing team to kind of we're learning the digital marketing and the customer acquisition and the conversion rates and all that science right now. And so I'm building a company. I don't and I self published. I don't. I don't need anything.
So can other board game developers come under your publishing.
Company or No, I'm not. I'm not at that point yet. Yeah, I'm not offering that service.
Hit gotcham, I think you might have just.
Ga me.
Light bulbing on.
We're trying to say some business right.
All right, so you got the business side of it. And the last time we're gonna talk about the scaling model, we're gonna go into depth about the actual in the workings of the game. Okay, So can we talk about the game in a little detail. So it's a board game, it is, right, but it uses hip hop lyrics like from like rappers.
No, it's just a random kind of phrases that are kid friendly or if you're playing with adults, you can you know, make an adult version, which it always goes there. But so basically there's these three levels of difficulty easy, Intermedian, intellectual, and you get a kickoff rhyme verse. So the two
teams battle each other. You get a kickoff rhyme verse and it might say like I like to meditate or something, and then your team has sixty seconds and each person on the team has to freestyle their own bar, like one creative sentence. The last word has to rhyme with meditate. So meditate is like an intellectual level.
That's that's tough. I'm thinking, like, yo, come on, it's really not though meditate wait rate see, I mean I'm a hip hop.
Right, so you already got it.
So it's a.
Rhyming game, you know. And so yeah, so it's a rap sidher game. There's a my your phone, there's an app you download that plays the music instrumentals, or you can go to our YouTube page and there's a bunch of instrumentals there, and you guys are just basically freestyle rapping. But the catches no slang, you have to use a proper English word and you get points.
That's tough. So if you slang what like how does that need describe it?
Well, we just don't get a point, okay, but people often do it. But and it's what makes the game fun because then it's like you get into the debating like that wasn't the word and you know it gets It's the drinking game version of it where if you don't get, if you don't hit the rhyme word, you got to take a shot. It's like really fun. But the beauty of the product is very versatile because it's an adult party game, or it's for kids in the family,
or teachers can use it in their classroom. It's great for artists development, it's like a great corporate ice breaker. It's just really dynamic.
I'm thinking like when you said in the classroom, I'm thinking like especially like on Fridays I'm in elementary school, liked afternoons, it's just like game time, like especially in the lower grades. But like this is definitely somewhere where they can use some of the words and even teaching spelling words right like after you use the word like trying to spell it, like I think this is a great idea. Are you creating deals with school districts or is that something?
So that's like, uh, this year, I'm really focused on the educational sector and like that revenue stream because over the holiday I had two principals order like bulk orders for their school and talk to me about how like they get a budget and they can order, like you know, a whole school district can order cases of games, And it was I always knew it was there, but I'm really paying attention to it now, like because it's a unique product that every teacher wants for downtime in their classroom.
There's definitely a bunch Like I see it every year. It's the same games that come in. It's like shoot some ladders, but not it's the same games every year. You know what happens to the game? It gets destroyed and they just re order it. If they do something like this, it's going to be obviously like the teacher can keep this on their desk or in their desk, and it's like we can.
Actually request to play exactly, No one's requesting shoot.
No, it's a fact. It's dope to hippo, none of that.
Lyricists back in the days, at least they used to like actually read, like to improve their rhyming skills. Like I remember, like I forgot I think not somebody somebody. I used to read the dictionary to learn different words, the wordplay. So a lot of time people look at rap and it's like now a lot of rappers don't really do that, probably but originally successful ones.
Do though, Like I watched every Breakfast Club interview and I think like Little the Baby was like the last one I watched, and he was just talking about how much he reads. And you can hear it in his lyrics. You can hear who reads and who doesn't. You know what I mean, Because a great lyricist is very smart. It's very intelligent. Like there's there's definitely like intellect behind.
Yeah, I mean there's still some lyricists.
And you gave us your top You ain't hear the ho top five? You want? You want to get us your top five, real quick, top five, no pressure.
Yeah, yeah, I'm good because it will never change.
Five, no order, the top five, no.
Order, Well Hove is number one, nas Park, Black Thought and the Riz, the Old Dirty bastard. You got rickon the chef and me t h the whole, the whole he said. I couldn't get that, but I mean it's the whole woo tang. I can't.
All right, So your nineties she's eighties nineties good, But yeah, I mean I think some rappers, like like I said, the j Coles of the world, the Kendrick Lamar's in the world, they lyricists that they take pride, even Drake takes pride in what they what they put in My top ten.
Electronica is another guy.
Oh my god, I wish we could hear more.
It's coming. I was coming. I got the cow down on my phone. When you put the forty day tweet.
I put a town down, so so excited about.
That twenty seven days left because.
That Exhibit C is one of my favorite.
Yeah, Exhibit AC. I think it's just incredible.
So it's dope, like even a platform for the podcast a lot of stuff that we always use, like hip hop lyrics and stuff like that. So I think it's it's dope to actually tie in culture and music with learning, right, because they kind of go hand a hand. Like I said, I mean, it's gotten a little away from that. Now, with music, you could just make up a word if you want.
But I know it is. But but you know, I think it's popular. They actually inducted into the Encyclopedia for real. It's crazy looking at that soda.
Looking at da I mean, but that's part of that's part of that, that's part of culture. It's part of It's like it's a word now in the dictionary. So I'm not even married about that. But I mean, just like when you're just not even making a word, just like mumbling. Really, that's what I'm like. You could just sign it sound, which is cool. I mean, it's a form of music, I guess, but it's not like you're not going to learn too much from just sonic sounds people making with it.
We learned a lot through the music man, Like I tell everybody like Shoty only talked in rhyme for like, I feel like throughout high school that's all you did was talking ron like if you ain't know the lyrics and you had no idea what he's talking about. But you know, I know a lot of raps, so I'm like, I'm into of them. I'm like, yo, this is with children.
Children learn through like repetition and rhyme scheme and like using music as like a platform. That's how they retain information. Like I don't know if you remember, like when we used to learn did you ever learn fifty nifty United States?
A song?
It was like fifty nifty United States? It was a cozy song, but because it was taught in a music platform, you remembered it.
You did that in Boston, Yeah, from the different out there.
Shout out to we got a lot of support out there. Shout out to the whole New England, Providence, Boston, Northeastern Connecticut. Yeah, everybody in the Northeast, so appreciate. So what's the scaling model, Like, what's the scaling idea for the game moving forward?
Well, like I said, right now, we're really focused on the marketing piece. Learning that the science behind the digital marketing, the SEO. It's really important, but it is really a science and a process to like learn it. And I'm
you know, I'm not really tech savvy. I'm a creator, So I'm having to learn this just so that I know what someone sells me on when I go and hire somebody to perform that duty for the business, I have to know that they know what they're doing, because you can definitely get there's a lot of people who proclaim to know how to do SEO and know how to do your Google ads and the click funnels and all that, and then they really don't. So I'm someone who likes to learn a little bit and then go
out there and find someone to do it. So that's a really big piece of the business. So because we can scale significantly if we do that right.
Any thoughts are going digital at some point, like having an Apple rhyme antics.
Yeah, so there's already an app that acts as a companion to the game because it plays the music instrumentals. But in the beginning I did want to do a full app version like the game The Words with Friends. But now I'm actually looking into making it Alexa adaptable.
There's this really cool company out of London I just learned about while I've been doing some research, and they're making board games Alexa adaptable, and so I'm thinking, like it would be so dope to have this as an Alexa game kind of hosting the party and like Snoop Dogg's voice, what like that would be so cool, Like imagine like soup dog is like Snoop Dogg's.
Voice is like hosting the park the Hologram pop up, right.
I got stop playing.
That's dope, but that would be that would be really dope.
Yeah, yeah, so this is dope. You have ideas to make new games or you just want to just double down on that.
I cannot think about a new game.
I got one for you. We'll talk after that, okay.
I mean, I'm really good at creating games, just because now I know, and I have been approached by a couple of people to develop some games for them. But it's just important for me to make this one a huge success. First. I do want to release future editions of it, Like I can do it in Spanish, so that will probably be an iteration I come up with. I can do it in French and we can definitely do lots of themes.
Yeah, I've seen you with some celebrities doing a game. Who is the best at doing romantics?
I would have to say Charlot Man.
Yeah yeah, Charloe is just funny.
He's just off top, just funny. So he yeah, he's really good at it.
Well, thank you for joining us. This is really dope episode. I'm sure people find value out of it? Can you tell them how they can get the game social media handles, all that stuff.
Yeah, So I am little miss Callaway on Instagram, L I L underscore M I S S C A L L O W A Y And I just want to let everybody know if you have questions about the invention process, I'm always like willing to help anybody, and people hit me up all the time and I answer questions, and I do free consulting, not consulting, but I you know, I'll guide you the best way I possibly can. And uh, it's rymantics dot com and it's rhyme antics on all
social media handles exactly how it's spelled. Our h y m me antics dope dope.
Shout everybody on Pictreon dot com. You know that's our proud pay program.
And I want to shout out s B for you.
Know the Bullard that that is Philly's own shout out. Shout to Sean Bullard.
That is a form phy.
Yeah, yeah, Philly, that was that was a great title. Yeah, we shout everybody on Patreon dot com. You know that's our provacate pay program where we offer extra services, extra episodes, transcripts, our early editions of the episode. So if some people can't wait to Tuesday, they got to have it before, so you can get it there and shout to everybody who's supporting the merch on your leasia dot com. Everybody's
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I think I got some.
Yeah, yeah, we'renna get your shirt for sure. So yes, thank you guys for rocking with us. We'll see you next week. Peace.
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