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All right, guys, welcome back, Earn your Lisha. This is gonna be a legendary episode, something I'm very, very very excited about. Before we start, we got some news for you, guys. Atlanta. Atlanta were coming January twenty fifth. January twenty sixth, we're doing a two day weekend takeover. January twenty fifth, we having a live podcast with the PTG Boys. If you
know Brandon, he was he was on our podcast. These young cats out of the city and they sell cars, but they move around like al Poe and Rich Porter in the eighties, Like they got helicopters and Lamborghinis and all that.
He gave him out the other day. He was like, Yo, man, if I know y'all live this far, I just took the chop over.
Yeah.
So Ptg's gonna be in the building.
Mister and missus two weeks out, crazy crazy fitness couple in Atlanta. They got the whole fitness game and smashed on Atlanta. Keanu Watson Celebrity Real to Superstar Realta in Atlanta and our brother Kenny Burns will be in the building. They gonna be the sure so and it's gonna be got a crazy It's gonna be crazy. You're gonna have open bar, private networking event, private dinners.
Crazy Day one Facts Day two.
We got a workshop with Alex Good Energy Truck and Guru out in Atlanta legend Andy from Y two K Credit Solutions, gonna get your credit right, I got MG mortgage guy. Everything you need to know about mortgage is real estate. You're gonna cover all of that. And then Max Maxwell, the King of wholestealing, Greatball wholesaling. So it's gonna be crazy. We're gonna have all of our other alumni friends. You know, it's gonna be it's gonna be crazy.
It's gonna be crazy. I ain't gonna hold you. So all all the tickets all asked on our website, on your lisha dot com under the offense tab.
Hit that tab.
Don't wait, don't wait.
We ask a lot of questions that already on the tab. So just go to the tab. Everything that you need to know about the event is there, the v I PS, the one off, everything's then.
Everything to the tab.
So all right, we're gonna jump right into this. We got my brother Wallow two six seven, the legend him self so Instagram.
Yeah.
Now, people have been asking for this episode for a long time, and I'll get a backstory. Actually, while I don't even know if I've told Wallow this, but Wallow actually is one of the reasons why we even have Arnlsia because so what happens was for months before we had a podcast, I was following Wallow and Wallow is dope. I'll tell the whole story. But he was putting like motivational videos on Instagram like he do like push ups in the rain.
Chumping out of garbage can. Yeah.
So I'm watching these clips, but you know, it's a lot of motivational speakers on Instagram, but his was actually like hitting me, like I'm like yo. So I was sending to like Troy, I was sent it to all my friends like yo, watch this, like check this shit out, and they're like, yo, this is actually pretty dope. And so I put a clip about fifty cent taking equity and vitament water and he actually DM me.
No, he followed me.
He followed me first, and I was actually out, I'm like, oh shit, Wallow follow me.
Look they're like, oh that's yeah.
I'm like the actually if for one of my young boys, and I'm like yo, while he's like yo, you made it, bro, Like that's big, Like Wollow followed you. So then he called me. He called me to nex dm me like, yo, what's your number? He called me the next day and we spoke for like an hour and he just gave me free game, Like, Yo, this is dope. You should do more of this. The backstories of finance of like entertainment, Like this is like something that this is a whole
lane you can carve out. And I'm like yeah, he's like, yeah you should just like that's the lane, like the backstory, and that's how Ernie Leisure like that's our tagline, the backstories of sports entertainment. So that kind of like encouraged me to do more. So yeah, man, Wallow, it's a
legendary story. You know, he was incarcerated for twenty years at sixteen sixteen, right seventeen, came out and just hit the ground running, like literally hit the ground running, and just over two years has the number one podcast on Apple Music, has endorsement deals with tons of companies, a book, a book.
The merch Poping that was an e book.
Everything.
Yeah, I mean, we're gonna run down this whole thing, but it's just it's really just inspiring. So first and foremost, thank you, thank you for joining us.
I'm pleasure to be here. Man, this is all the guys out here.
Now it's real because when we got the When he told me, like, Yo, I'm about to speak the wallow.
He was like Yo, I'm like, yo, you think I can hear it?
You know. It's like I was more. I was so excited to speak to him because it was like, Yo, this dude is giving it to Like you know, I might have I might have pushed people, you know, in a different way, but the information that he had, I was like, Yo, this is gonna grab me people in you know, grab people attention and make them want to learn.
See like, you know, learning ain't always cool where we're from, so so to be able to, you know, encourage people to learn through people that they see their celebrities and you're giving up their information and you're throwing these these dollar signs up there and they got a story with it. Oh that's that was like man, it was like, you know, short of like what I do was like medicine and candy, you know what I mean. I was like, Yo, this
is decent. That's what I was telling you, Like yo, because there was so many there's so many stories that we want to know about wherever sneaky deals whether you know, you know, all type of deals is going on that we you know, we don't really hear about like you see how this dude made all his money, Like yo,
who this guy? And like it'd be somebody you might don't even know that that that created a pattern or trademark something or you know, just an idea that went you know what I mean, or just the negotiated the deal and you're like, yo, he negotiated that, you know, and it can inspire you. I think that was necessary when I've seen that.
That was definitely was the intention, because not only does it inspire you, but it also inspires another generation to see like, Yo, this is possible. I could do this because he did it. You know what I'm saying, Like that's pretty much what we rooted in.
So like one of the like a lot of people know your story as far as like you know, motivation coming out of the being incarcerated. But to me, I'll told you just before, Like to me, the business story to me is is like what really interests me because it's like we see you, you know, you've done deals with Puma, foot Locker, Hennessy, NFL Network, tedtalks Global Citizens all of that right, and like I said, Number one
podcast merged Trademark's book, all of that stuff. But at what point, because we spoke about this on the phone, Like, at what point did you see the direction that the world was changing while you're actually incarcerated and map out a strategy to hit the ground running when you come home, because I know when you first came home, the first business that you had was selling T shirts, like literally like just on the street corner.
Right, Yeah, it was just like that was the first thing. But when I was in prison, it was like I used to I used to read a lot man and it was it was a guy called Anthony Bourdain. He was a legend to me. That was like a teacher from far away. Because Anthony Bourdain had three shows, no Reservation, parts unknown in the layover, why on like you know, different channels, Discovery a channel, all type of travel channel,
all the CNN. And this dude used to be a heroin addict and he got hisself together and he used to be all over the world and exposing people the different cultures and different ways of life and ways of thinking. So I was up on him. Then I used to read all the time Entrepreneur, Forbes, Black Enterprise, and I would read as much as possible, Rolling Stone, GQ, Vanity, Fear, and I would read articles about people making it happen technology, Wired Magazine, And when people used to come to prison,
I used to always interview people like about life. I wanted to know what was going on in life, because in jail life stop. It's not really life. It's not no oxygen. So when people come, I would want to go, I would want to get I would want to escape the reality I was going through. So my way to escape is I would just interrogate them, man like, ask
them a thousand questions. Man's about life. Somebody knew coming in new coming in, and I when I first heard about Google and YouTube, I was like, man, I didn't believe somebody when they first told me about Google, cause it was like what you Yeah, well you could type your name, And I said, why I want my name being there? I've been in jail, like how could you type my name? And something to come up? And you know, I saw. I used to write it down and a
thing called the Book of Life. The Book of Life is a book that I had, the composition book, and I used to write everything down, all over, every every inchy that I would use to write I mean, I might be talking to you or tell me somebody app or or you might tell me somebody the website, but I gotta remember that. I don't care what time. I got all types of stuff written in that book of life, you know, and uh, and it just was like one
day I'm gonna look into it. So my homie he had got a he had access to a wireless hotspot and the iPod touch. And once we gave me that, it was like I came alive.
When the first time you saw an iPod you think it was like an alien and like, what did you.
Not dropped it? Because I couldn't believe it. When I typed it up and stuff was just popping up, you know what I mean, my name and stuff was popping up that you know. I was thinking, it was like, Yo, this is like and I thought I was I thought I had something that nobody in the world had. Just Google. Google was like it was like university to me. It was a free university. You can find anything, you could learn anything, and you know, and you know, just typing
it high too on YouTube. So I was like, oh, I was like, yo, this is I couldn't believe I thought this like this was like unreal. I'm like, this is no way in the world. It's people. We got this. And because I thought like with this, I got to and I said, damn, I got an edge on anybody out here. I got an edge.
Now you know that that's powerful because it's like a lot of time we don't we take stuff for granted, like on the outside, right, or just people in general. And I never forget when my cousin came home. My cousin came home from jail, and he did like I think ten or eleven years and he saw the iPhone for the first time, and he didn't know, like he was looking at it, but he didn't say he didn't know what it but I could tell he had no idea what was going on. He's like, like, how you
touch it? Like you know what I'm saying, Like what's going on? So it's like things like that. It's like we don't fully understand how powerful what we have are.
Like the phone is.
The most powerful invention ever created. You got a library. Anything that's ever happened in the history of the world is writing.
Absolutely, So at that time when you're discovering these things, are you formulating, like yo, how am I going to use these things once I leave?
To be honest with you, I just was like, yo, I always was a dude that was always a grinder, like a hustler, you know, Uh, because growing up I used to I was a part of a crew called the Lowlights. We used to boost and still you know they originally yeah, they originated from Yeah, they originated from New York. You know. My old g Uh it was a cat named b Bill rest in p schis low Uh and uh, he didn't win. They gave me the name Wildow. My real name is Wallace, but they used
to call me a little wilely. He made a while low. So I used to boost and steal all that stuff. So I always had like a hustle to me. So I used to sell things all the time. That's what the low part comes in. Yeah. Yeah, So I used to sell things all the time. And when I was in jail, I always studied marketing. I studied colors, I studied I understood that, I studied intention span. I understood about when I see a commercial on TV. I used
to love watching commercials in jail. You know, like you may watch and look at a commercial like that and I'm watching, like, yo, I want to do what advertising agency made this that they gave it, you know, get it, you know, contract to to shoot all their commercials. I'm looking at the colors, I'm looking at the timeframe, I'm looking at the excitement, at the you know, to catch
your drawn and so I'm like, yo, man. I studied the T shirt game because it was like T shirts ain't gonna never die, and I used to sell close. I said'mna get out there and throw some T Shirt'm gonna get some boat finds, I'm gonna get some catchy sands and it's on. I'm gonna go out there because I just knew stuff. I study symbolism, and I said, when I go out here is on because I said, I literally say, I'm gonna fox shit up out here
because people sleep. Because as I was be on Google all, I used to be on social media and I used to see that people was out here celebrating nothing. I'm like, oh my god, I got to tell you, you know, because you know, for me to be able to have this this leverage being in pre prison, because in prison, everybody is like on dinosaurt the time, the duck in the time that they came in on and you know, they're part of a world that don't exist no more.
So what that did is they that put me up in today and told it, told me about tomorrow, and I was like, noth gonna stop me with this and I got this that's all I you know, would say, telling my people, I just want two phones, like come on, you know what I mean, I just want too you know what I mean. And it was like, i'm'a go out here and i'm'a just destroy this shit. And I knew that people lack I knew people like grind they lack imagination. And I knew that, you know, even though
I was coming out of prison thirty seven. It was like i'm'a be coming out of prison thirty seven, but at the same time, I'm really still gonna be a kid with my imagination cause Jill stagnated. Jill didn't give
me the experience that the average person would have. Like as an adult, you know, you grow, you get experienced, and you start to know more things to whereas though limit your imagination cause you feel as though, oh that can't be done, this can't be done, that can be As a child, you had an unbelievable imagination, right, because you haven't ran up against no walls yet. So I still was in that mind of my imagination everything. And I was like, oh, I could do any fucking thing. You know.
That's POWERFULID to imagine the ability to dream.
Yeah, I still was dreaming. That's that's dope. I still was dreaming.
So when when you were like you said you were coming up with slogans like are you writing these down in the life book?
Like your book of life?
They're coming up. I will write stuff down.
I'll be talking talking trash or we might be talking, I might see someone to think of something remaking me, like like, you know, there's always money in Philadelphia. You know that was a slogan come from It's Always sunny in Philadelphia, the show.
So I see it.
I go with that, and I started printing that on shirts and it was like game time, Like it was like.
So when you when you when you come home, like what's the first steps of getting the T shirt? Like you like what, like how do you because you come home you don't have any money at all?
No, I had a couple of dollars, okay, something for my books. A couple of people hit me off, gave me a couple of hours. But they don't take nothing to start like a T shirt line, like you know, went to the local printer. I want. This is what I want. Any city, and you gotta h you always going to a T shirt whole selling somewhere in your town is gonna be where they sell a whole shell, T shirts, hoodies, whatever. I went there. I heard about a guy named Mark, you know, uh from Hustle's Union.
I heard about him in jail because I knew a guy. I knew people that was dealing with him. My homie girl was dealing with him. Uh. She had a clothing line, and when I came home, she took me to him, like yo, here you go. And I was like, okay, it's on. And I would just buy a certain I don't I forget how many was probably like twenty. I bought him, took him to him, paid a couple of dollars for the shirt, a couple of dollars for the sealk screening, and I just went with it. I just
was like, all right, I'm gonna go sell these. I was selling T shirts in the winter time, hand in hand man like coke so and I just started selling them and just and just start I just start feeling it.
At that point when you're coming up with these slogans in your mind, like obviously you've been studying, are you thinking about it?
I got a trademark this.
Or or you know, I already knew about trademarkses I ran into in jail. I ran into an intellectual property attorney. He was in jail, and uh, he gave me the game about that and I read about it. But he would tell me about intellecttions cause I'm like, intellectual property, What the hell? What type of real estate you got? You know what I'm saying, because you say properly. And then and then he said, you know, in the reality, that is like real estate. Yeah, you know what I mean,
because it's still properly. It's still stuff that you can make money offever it's properly you know. License. And then I used to watch Shark Tank and I would see them talking about, you know, asking people they own the join and telling about licenses and royalties at the trademark
and I'm like, oh shit, this is the game. So I always was fascinated with trademarks and understanding that, and like so I said Okay, I'm a trademark shit and I just write stuff down right, company names, right, ideas down. And I was like, I'm a trademark this shit.
So one thing I was I was actually curious about this a business podcast. But we talked about like criminal justice reform and stuff like that, like when people come home from jail, like for probation and stuff that they got to show that they're working. They get a job. They have to have a job, right, Like how'd that work out for you? Like being an entrepreneur. They let you rock with that.
Or like me, I went, she'd be like, I told her, I don't know what it was. My parole agent just believed in me. I told her what I was going to do because when I came home, like my like my score and if I was going, you know, you take like testes like and the test some of these tests show if you're gonna you know, what's your chances of reoffending or whatever? I had low. She was like, you ain't really, no prilem, I ain't really your own
use drugs? You on what's the name. And I lived like a good probably like two to three hundred feet from the pro office. Literally that was right there. Like my grandma was living in my grand so it's like they she wasn't worrying about me, you know what I mean, she just like some mandated you gotta go to this job fare or whatever I go. But I started, I just started getting it set on my how I was getting it man, you know, And before I knew it,
it was game time. Yeah. I started doing advertising for people on Instagram, you know, to build my sting up, and it was like it was over and just you getting paid to speak. And it was like, okay, I'm in the game. All right.
So the next time we're gonna talk about, were gonna talk about your transition from selling T shirts to blowing up and being a social media influencer. All right, So I want to talk about social media marketing because a lot a lot of people, everybody that has a business right now, I think, has to be marketing themselves on and everybody's trying to do it, but a lot of people is not doing it correctly and not doing it right.
But you you caught wildfire, Like, so all right your social media campaign was that deliberate or was that just you was just doing it and just kind of caught steaming before you knew it. You just like did you have a plan for that or you just was doing it? And that's how it was already done.
You know, I knew. I knew one thing that I knew. I knew the attention span. I knew that I had to battle with the timeline. So what I did was, I knew that whether I'm laying on the ground with ketchup on my head or rather I'm jumping off a roof, I had to grab your attention because I had to battle with the girl that was naked on Instagram, to do with all the jewelry on the system, with all the designers, do with all the designers, sit on the
rapper the athlete. So I said, or something that nobody doing out here, nobody, and uh, but I'm gonna give it to you with a message, because you're gonna stop when you see me laying on the ground with the ketch up, You're gonna stop when you see me jumping off a roof. And then I'm gonna be at a poppet in that one minute and give you a message, you know, like once again, you know medicine and the candy. So it was like it wasn't no big, big plot
of plan. It was just like I just was giving the message out, you know, and and it just was my natural me being me, Like I knew, and I knew that everybody out here was afraid to be themselves. So if you got people on Instagram really being yourself, really not worrying about how you look at me, I'm really not trying to impress you with things or man, you could kill shit. And that's what I did, you know, I just was I guess me was me, me naturally being me was marketing.
Yeah, that's the fact. And I always tell people that's the best way. Like people ask, they ask, even me all the time, like you know, different tips. I'm like, you gotta be original me and Troy. I just had this conversation with somebody yesterday, like you gotta on your own lane. Like there's really no sept rhyme or reason or formula. It's like what works for you, Like this works for us, but what works for you. And I think a lot of times, especially with social media, everybody's
trying to like duplicate what's already hot. And the problem is you're always running a race where you're behind somebody like you're following, and then it's like a turn. Now you gotta follow that turn. Now you gotta follow this turn. It's like, if you on your own path, you don't got to worry about.
What you know. You know what's crazy. I was thinking about that ship and I was staying about to stay your own lane, and I realized was talking to a social mine, I said, I said, man, I'm coming to the conclusion that that whole mindset might be a little dated because we living in the world. Whereas though it's it's like you ever notice how you're driving. You got different lanes. You got this lane, you got the speed lane. If you're trying to get somewhere, you be banging all
types of lanes. Speed lane, slow it up, of course, slow on the speed of you Like, I think you got to change lane. Sometimes you got because the way the game is and the way the culture of nown is, the culture now has changed so much. Whereas though, can you keep up with the speed of culture? You know, Troy Carter once said that, And that's the real reality of it is you might jump in the lane and you really might be multi talented, like you might be
like that's just like tell the dude. Oh man, everybody might come up get their money someway, but everybody always preached real estate, real estate, real estate, real estate, real estate. All a billion of real estate. You know what I'm saying. All the billionaires got multiple revenute stay, all the billionaires got real estate. You know, the same old say shit you always hear you know what I'm saying, Like, so
you have a dude that got the real estate. But at the same time he probably came up from a juice company, right, you got to do they got the real estate, same time he came up probably off of music. This dude athlete. This dude, uh might got restaurants. This dude might have gas, this dude might sell uh, you know, landscaping and stuff. So it's like, what do you know what I mean? It's like like people is getting but in the same chines see staying your lan did the
same time they say, have multiple revenue streams. So it's like, what the fuck do you do? But just do what you feel.
It's a million lanes man, But the kids to remain authentic. Even back to what I was saying, it was like somebody was asking us, like, yo, how do y'all do it, And it was like, well, we've been friends with twenty five plus years. It's not how do we do it, it's just naturally what we do. But I'm glad that you said that, like diversifying your mind right, because like you said, like if I stay in my one lane, like I'm a teacher, like people will only keep me
in that lanes. Like when they hear me even talking about business, it's like you're not supposed to do that, Like you know that all those things it's like a shock to people. And then you get to diversify from this like yeah, I could do this, I could do this, and then you surprise yourself.
You're like damn, like I really did that.
Like you got to look at it, like I don't even try to you know, I don't even try to categorize myself because like you know what I mean advertise. You know what I'm saying, which is marketing for myself for brands or uh, you know, I do speaking engagements. You know what I'm saying. A host of a podcast. You know what I mean. I manufactur you merch. You know what I'm saying, I create you know, self merch, Like like what can no, no, you know, I don't know.
But it's like, you know what I mean. But it's like at the same time, like what if I box myself?
Yeah, now, for sure, you gotta you gotta leave all your options open. I just think you still you have to be authentic because a lot of times I think people are chasing something that they're not. That's what I mean by like chasing something like not chasing like in different direction, different lanes, but chasing like, Okay, this is the wave on Instagram. Comedian, I'm gonna be a comedian. I'm gonna be an Instagram comedian. Oh this is the
wave on Instagram. I'm gonna do this. It's like it's not sustainable.
But because it's like it's not, you're not comfortable with it. Like I'm comfortable with getting a fucking shut up, throwing the video or doing video. I'm cool with that. I do that ship in my sleep and I'm cool with that, you know what I mean. I don't. It's good when you can aspire people Like I've seen a lot of people come after me and wanted to do whatever they was doing, and I respected it. I don't feel no type of way I don't. They ain't got nothing to
do with what I'm doing. You know, I guess you just you just you just see people and you just like I wish people could just I want people to win, and I wish they do find ay thing, you know, and it ain't never too late to figure it out. You can find that ship, you know what I mean. Like I just be like, I just be like going hard at what I know, and I'm always adding some new ship to my my arsenal.
So one thing you told me outside, he was like when you was in Soho and you was walking around.
He's like people.
Most people when they they look at they look at the store, they look at that, They looking at the store's name. But you're looking like as a possible advertiser.
Like I'm looking at I'm looking at I'm looking at it as they need advertisement. They could be a sponsor for a podcast, they could be a sponsor for event. They could be a sponsor for community, uh you know, give back or activate. Like that's how I see that. I don't see like I see things differently. When I see them, I'm like, okay, bang. But everything is about the introduction to that idea. A lot of times you have an idea, but if the introduction to that idea
to who you're presenting it to don't grab them. I mean that's why a lot of times you see movies. As soon as the movie come on you, I mean, you see something happen in the car chase, somebody shot, somebody can't kill you hit the gun, and then they say six months earlier. But the that the introduction grabbed you made you see here, You're like, damn, I want
to see what's still this? And sometimes it's for the big you know, everybody out here, man, all these businesses, they always looking for new ways to market, you know, because you know you got this technology. Everybody want to be a part of. Everybody want to be hip, they want to be cool, they want the followers. The big brands even.
Do it like on social media is the new rock stars the influences for sure.
So you got to try to figure out how can we partner? So how did that? How did that happen?
Because I remember one thing you told me a while ago too, is like, don't always worry about like big brands and stuff like that. Like take like it might be a small mom and pop that wants to do an Instagram ad Like I tell people that all the time, especially when you're first starting out, But like, at what point did you transition to like bigger brands, Like did that just happen through relationships or did you reach out to them?
Like how did that? In the game out here, everything goes off of relationships. It goes off for your your tracking out here, and then when you know, it goes off multiple things. But when you get hot, man, I'm telling you, man, you get hot out here, they come and looking for you.
I mean, I wouldn't say climb. It was like, it's been two and a half years, right, so.
It's been been actually thirty four months.
So at what point? I mean, was it just hot from the start? Like people, what was the process it was?
It was? It was it took time, Like all right, I was out of jail probably six months, and I uh, that was the first time I got to speaking a real serious speaking I think the first speaking check I got was like was it six hundred dollars? Spoken to school?
But I was just sure this dude gaming like six My first advertising check I got was five hundred dollars for one minute of that on Instagram And like six months outside of me being six months of me being home, I've done the speaking thing, what a speaking of engagement. I did it for fifteen minutes, to do big business business he gave me. He gave me two grand for fifteen minutes. I said, oh shit, is game time? I
remember I said that to my officer. I said this when I'm doing She said, holy shit, my pro office. I sent a copy of the check and I did this how I'm doing it out here.
That was based off of what you have been curating already on social media.
Yeah, it was based off of my he my valuation he had for me because I didn't know what I was doing so philly right. Yeah, he just said it, come and do it. I went and done it, and he gave me that, you know, and it was like two fifteen minutes. I've only been out of jail six months. Game time. It's my worth, you know what I'm saying. I knew everybody probably couldn't pay it, but I knew where to start from. I know, damn, I get two
thousand dollars plus tradwa I could do this. Then I started making moves, you know, I mean, I understood what the what the one, she was I started looking up. Damn we do a you know a contract?
Look like earners? What's up?
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What type of you know, speaking engagement contract? What DoD it look like? I'm going on line, pulling jaws down, going to speakers pages, Like everything you want is.
Overal, so you're doing it yourself.
You're not like, oh, I gotta get it agent.
No, I don't have no agent because I didn't really have no agent, but I had friends, you know what I mean? That will help me. And then people do stuff for me, like Nadia, Nissa. You know my lawyer shaam lost and you know what I mean. One thing about my lawyer, man, y'allmight gotta get hurt. That thing on going sham lost. She's from Cleveland, but uh she she lived in Atlanta. She practiced out of Atlanta. She's
an intellectual property attorney and all that stuff. And I met her down Atlanta, like I wasn't home that long, and she was like, listen, man, I'm gonna help you. She will help me. Thinks she got me at a three c she uh what she at a three C festival. She got me there the first year at home speaking there, you know, uh, And she was like, listen, you ain't got that much money. Give me what you're gonna give me. I'm gonna help you get your stuff, trademark, whatever you
give me for the filing fees. And I love her, you know what I mean. She always done that, like she's a if you listen to this, check out Shaye m lost and on Instagram. She really like a she knows stuff, you know what I mean. And I and I ran into like a couple of deals, a little small stuff, you know, I mean, foxy grand type. She would make sure that it was right reading no, no, take this out, take that out. She's a beast, you know what I mean. But her, you know, I had
people like her. I had Nisa, I had Nadia. Then was like like one thing I learned about the game out here, Like when you're doing stuff, women approach is way different, Like they really be.
On shit for you, Like if women like you got people like women out here that would try to Like most of my journey, it was like women.
That throw the plug through the all, you know what I mean. Uh, you know, you know, it was like it was different women, and they would they they position you different, like they'd be really on that ship. They work hard, they work different. Seem like a lot of dudes be bullshit, you know, they be trying to compete with you or they be trying to be popping, so it'd be crazy. Not all of them, but some of them, you know.
So and like, yeah, the thing I like about is the whole package is very polished, like your website and your bio and all that.
You know what it took Listen, man, I'll tell you I didn't had different websites. It took time, and it took me just looking at people, like a lot of times. If you know, you gotta like whatever you're trying to do, like I tell people, look at the people that's doing what you're doing on the next level. You know what I'm saying. If you know, if you're trying to be a speaker, you know what I mean, you gotta look at look at speaker pages, look and see how much they charge, and look at their website.
Look how you look who was the guy that all the people that you looked at when you were going trying to model, like you know what he's doing that or she's doing that.
This is what I need to do.
I need to charge this, Like I think the charge was like because some people prices were astronomical, you know what I'm saying, still are like you got some people you was like, damn, you know what I mean. I'm like, I'm gonna get that. I'm getting that fifty thousand. It's like it's like a lot of speakers out here, like you know what I mean. You got you got the Less Brown, you got the Eric Thomas, you got the David Goggins, you got these type of dudes is out there.
You got the Ikey Ikey Johnson. But but the dude that really broke it down for me was a guy named Maurice Correct. One thing about him is that you know, he gave me the game because once when Maurice Correct came out of prison, was doing his thing, It's thirty for thirty documentary came out, Uh, his email got swamped, like a thousand emails. People went the booking. Hein't know how to do, so he got what people people ain't wasn't there for him and try to give him the game.
So he's seen when I was coming home. I was. He sent me an email and I was like, hold up, I noticed thing I was watching his I noticed boys correct or the Ohio State.
I reached out, listen.
So I hit. I'm like, yo, man, I'm like, oh shit, yo. And what's crazy is like, at the beginning of my journey, I used to be living. I was living on my grandma. I was talking to Maurice every morning. He'd be working out. He'd be talking to me. I got my earphones, I'm shooting my videos. It's raining for whatever. And he's just like, yeah, man, you got something special. Man, you're gonna be You're gonna.
Be that guy.
That's all he used to tell me. More used to be like, yo, man, I'm telling you, man, I see it in you. Man, I don't look at a lot of kids, you know. He'd be like, it's a lot of corny shit on it looking at a lot of these cornballs, you know what I mean. He'd be like, your shit is like it's real, it's passion, it's real. I'm telling you gonna be like all right, man, all to hear you, Maurice. But right now I'm living with
my grandmother. JPM just really was a pusher. He was a dude that you know you gotta have them pushes in your life. He was a dude that used to push me be like, yo, you the ship you got, it's something gonna happen. And he you know, I mean he always say today like I told you. He was like, I told you it was gonna pop. It's gonna pop. He said, you ain't even heat up for real yet,
Like he still be talking like that. So it was like he was a guy that told me about you need a contract, you need this, you need you know what I mean, You need a uh one sheet you need He gave me a lot of games. One once sheet is basically like but all your stuff when it you got the one sheet and you got to e p K like trying to press kid once she's like all the brands you work with, like by all your stuff and stuff like that. You got the logos on that. And he gave me a lot of game man.
You gave me to As far as the deck, no idea, A lot of people don't know about the that.
Proposal deck proposal that yeah, that's necessary when you got something you're trying to propose or whatever. Sponsorship deck that like you know them everything you know, you know what I learned. Whatever you're trying to do is already on Google, bro, Like you you can see ten plates, you can see somebody else, Like if you type in sponsorship deck, it'll pop up, you know, and then you got people like you know on fiber. You get it done on fiber.
You know, all you gotta do is just have all the language and they put it in the format, you know, put the pictures there. They'll do anything. And it don't call nothing. Like, everything you're trying to do is there already. It's just about you know what I mean, you doing the research. Like that's the number one thing that people don't. People call and be like yo, while you do is I'll be like, and I sent it to the screenshop. I like, I just googled it, bro.
It was crazy when when you sent it over, we were like, oh, this is what a deck.
No, that's the fact that literally was like, all right, we should use that. They put this here.
Yeah, we ain't have no experience, you know, I'm a financial advisor, choice of educated. Were just coming into the podcast game. So we just learned it as we go. So when you sent that to me. I'm like, oh, okay, this makes sense. This is how we posted actually formatic.
So you know what, we got to write a bio about ourselves.
Just copy yeah, like exactly, like we didn't know that.
And all you're doing, all you're doing is like one deck is the same deck. Some doings might be fancied, but all that shit this is the same stuff and it's about just uh when you see it, I know when you see it. He was like, Yo, this is like simple we like it ain't nothing, you know what I mean? And it be real like that, Like I just be trying to help people want to ask pect of like uh, I get my blessings you know from
helping people, Like it ain't you know. It ain't like I'm looking for turn like just trying to school people and help people like because like I get excited when I could find somebody that want to listen, because a lot of people might blow me off, like damn dude, crazy tripping and there they don't understand that I'm very informative. Like dudes used to call me. Some of dudes U to call me the information king in jail because I used to always give up information that was my thing. Yo,
my girl trying to start this. Oh yeah, she need this, get with L and I. He go this, he go to LLC. If she don't want to LLC, Yes, you get a DBA doing business ass fix it your name application with his dad. But when we go to like I used to always be on that time, like you know what I mean, It was just like you want to start a food truck or hey, I got to print out of the food truck. Here goes all these things
that the ell and I want you to have. You gotta have you gotta head the sink right here, you gotta have this in there, you gotta have this, you gotta be this many feet, all the paperwork right here. So it was like that was my thing, you know what I mean. So coming out here, that's shit easy.
And I know a video that you I really like. One of my favorite videos of you is when you talk about like relationships, Like a lot of times people scared to like like no new friends and like they scared to build relationships with people.
But you like how you're going to that's leverage for me, Like coming in the black community, Like a lot of times in the black community, we don't want to mess with nobody that we don't know. But in reality, a lot of times to people we know, they don't really mess with us. When we trying to start selling to do like you'll be like, oh, I don't mess with this person. I don't mess with this person. You don't
even mess with the people I understand. You don't even mess with the people that you post to mess with her they post and mess with you. It would just be crazy. Just be like, it's a mindset that people got to get rid off grid of in order to win.
That was the post today, right, It was like, Yo, investing in the people who are interested in you.
Yeah, you gotta invest in people. That's just like, that's going to invest in you. Man. I don't be like man, I don't be like I really don't be caring man, Like I go and talk to anybody, man, I don't care.
Who you is.
Like like I will walk up to you and say start talking to you. I would DM you and go right into full bloom conversation like I know you. No, that's a fact.
Like I said, when you DM me and we spoke for like two hours, like I never spoke to you ever in life. You DM me like Yo, what's your number? I text you my number and we spoke for like two hours. That's the first time we spoke. And I'm like, Yo, it's just genuine, dude, because it was like he didn't ask for nothing, It just wanted to just have a conversation.
I love information. I listen because what it is is like you sharp in my blade too, because it's information. Is the energy and information or exchange a value exchange. I know you had something going on with this, and I knew that, like from the pieces I was seeing you throwing out. I was like, Yo, that shit was decent. Like I was just so fascinated with that because I never seen nobody do that on social media. And I'm like, Yo, these boys next up. And I wanted to let you know,
Like yo, bro, you next level is some shit. Keep doing this.
Shit.
Ain't nobody doing this? You really could kill them because like y'all put out the type of information, wheres though the dude that's working the corporate America. It could catch the kid that is going to you know, whether you know a p w I predominant white institutional kid is going to HBCU. They catch the person that's working at KFC, they catch the borders in the trap house selling dope.
It's a fact because like the like the way y'all put it tighter, the way I'll be like, damn, you know, like when y'all did that one too, one of the major best joins, when y'all was talking about Supreme how Supreme game Camp you know cam, and I'm like, ten thousand jones the for more than they wound up selling it for a billion years later. How to utilize the culture to elevate their stuff, and then they said, I'm out of here, Like I think that's major, you.
Know, just giving it to them the way they can digest it.
It's digest y'all. Shit is digestible. It's simplistic and it's digestible. And that's major for y'all to be your educated, your finance, like for y'all to be on the high level, y'all was smart enough to understand I got to talk to my people where they are, you know what I'm saying, even though some people might be up here, but I'm gonna talk to you where everybody gets for me.
That's the fact I want to ask you too. For the last segment, consistency because you're like one of the most consistent people I've seen, Like you you you really be on it, Like how how important is that? And like how do you you you post? Do you have your post already set the night before, like you know, like the schedule already or No.
I get up some time and bang them out with Sometimes I might bang out a bunch of the day. Depends. It always depends on It always depends on where I'm at with it, because it's like with me, it's like I just got It's just a feeling like I might know, like I'm getting up tomorrow like five and I'm wilding the fuck out. Yeah.
Yeah, Now it's dope because like I thought, like maybe And every time we do an interview, it's different with the person who comes. Usually there'll be like two or three people with them, or they have a videographer and you coming, it's just you and you're like, yeah, it's just me, Like I'm curing everything I'm putting.
Yeah, because I got to. Because it's like a lot of people they ain't ready for that ship. Like a lot of people say they want to go, but they don't be ready. Man. I had a lot of bad experience with videoographers. They ain't turning my ship around on time they hold my stuff. I'm like, I'm not dealing with it. I got to take care to people. I can't take it to people if you hold me up. That's the fact. All right. So we're gonna head to the last time.
We're gona talk about the number one podcast, your podcasts and merchants as well, for sure. Me me, me, me, all right, son, we're gonna finish it out. I want to talk about the podcast though, because we got obviously we got a podcast. But so you got a podcast with your cousin Gilly Yah, y'all te it up, man, y'all turn it up on audio, your tann up on YouTube.
What was the idea for that?
Because that's that's actually dope too, because y'all got two different I look at you, it's like two different brands. Like you know what I'm saying. It's like two different brands. It's too, completely different brands. Your family obviously, so like, but that's actually a dope. Like even from a business standpoint, it's like Gilly got his following, you got your following? Was that the idea? Like, yo, lit' let's just combine this and like really just blow it out the water.
Yeah, Gilly always been doing this thing because always been doing this thing with Millie hours worth a game. They're giving up that stuff on answer for years. I'm talking about for years. He's doing this ship for like ten years, right, I mean, and and me and him is always he was always together. They was like, damn, start a podcast because we always together, tripping out doing us living all life. We just yeah, we just documented all life because we
still on some ship. Like I came home from prison. We still on some ship like before I went like young, we just be tripping out all day. That's how we you know, we just we live. We don't give like we really don't care, you know what I mean.
I think the first time, the first time I ever heard the word not ass was like, Gilly call you that.
Yeah yeah he was that's like a Philly saying that, you know. I mean, I mean so it was like we said we the people kept asking about that podcast, y'all need a podcast, and we did it, and he just like took you know, I even.
Called you about I was about to say, like I called you like yo, man, how you you know what I mean?
I was on that call.
I remember it was like humbling to me because I'm like, yo, why I asked questions? One thing about one thing that's good about me? I asked stuff, what type mike? You type of this?
That? And third, because I was just gonna shoot on my iPhone. You know, I like I shoot whereas well, I ain't care. He was like, no, we can't do it because we got to get the audio. And I was all right, cool because because you know, I'm cool, I just.
Go At that point, I was like yo, I felt like an engineer. I'm like, yo, he just asked me what we're using? How we That's how you about me? One thing about me validated? Now I take advantage of information.
I take advantage of the ax, meaning you got to ask somebody like we be people be out here thinking, oh I got it off. Fuck No, I'm going to ask you so at least I get some game. And if I mess up and you told me what was right, that's on me. But I'm gonna ask you. If I know you doing it and you're making it happen, I'm like, yo, how you do this? You know what I'm saying.
Now it's so for me because like you said before that call.
You caught me before you started the podcast because we had a podcast going already, and you was like, yo, were about to start this podcast and you asked me, like who we use? We used income, we use anchor, and I was telling you like different stuff like that, and it it was dope for me to watch that like to where it is now to like the number one podcast, Like you know what I'm saying. It's like you literally, but I just see this was crazy.
The only thing I didn't done it was a brother name and Philly named Prince down. Now one thing about him. I called him and he put me down with buzz sprout. He was like that because I was like, yo, because I seen that, y'all think it was a little more laborate. His thing was more simplistic. He just had the joint. I'm like, yo, man, what you on you use? Man? He said, wow, I used buzz Probably sent me the joints like he go to package to get. I ain't get the package because we wound up going to the
studio where they had anything in there. But he sent me the package of what to get. He was like, Yo, get this wallow and he was like, uh, he was like this the platform I used, buzz Sprout. I was like, well, see, he said, many get you all your analytics, they spit you awyway. They put you on Apple Spotify, boom boom. All you do is uploaded and to go where you set the date. I was like, oh, this is like thistro kid or like too cool. Yeah. Man, then it was like it was a rap.
Yeah yeah, we had that kind of I'm like, yeah, they send it to different outlet and yeah.
So to see it number one in a short period of time.
Yeah yeah. Yeah. The first day we came out, we went we went all the way up to number two in comedy. Then we went all the way to number four and every podcast on Apple that day. So that was dope, you know what I mean. Then we went you know what I mean, we was in music category and we went to we did number one seventeen weeks Street congratulations on.
So like the podcast, right, because we have a podcast obviously, So I always tell people like this, different business opportunities off for that.
So like now you do like live shows, you can.
Do live shows. You got you got live shows, you got merch, you got advertising dollars, all that stuff. Man, you know what I'm saying, like like, if you got a podcast, you got YouTube, YouTube, YouTube money. Yeah, that's that's sick.
Let's not over that.
But what I'm saying is this, if you got a podcast, that's how you make it. You got the YouTube money, you got your merch, you got your live show. You gotta catch man. I don't care if you did a live show, Like a lot of people think, oh you need all these people. You might do a live show for thirty people in charge. You might do a live show for fifty. But you build it up. You create a great experience of dope experience, you know, and you
might get bartered. The spot, the location, create the dope experience, and people gonna tell other people they're gonna build up. Now you make money off the YouTube to merch, the live show, the ad dollars. You know what I'm saying, that's where you cake up off here. Ad Dallas is like this. A lot of people think the reality is it's over, Like what million podcasts? Yeah, it's close to a million podcasts. The one percent of podcasts is the
ones that do like fifty thousand plus per episode. We're part of that one million dollars with a game is one part of that one percent out of the podcast industry.
Per week or for a thirty day stretch.
No, every time, we like like per episode, every episode, not just the week, like the episode because the week we might do something stupid, but the week you go crazy. But like each episode, you know what I mean, we fin that we're gonna do fifty, So it's like or more so it's like or number one joint did like one something one dred thousand y'all first showing that shit did crazy. But like the whole thing is like understanding that once you get them numbers, like everybody ain't gonna
do get the Joe Buttens deal. Everybody's not gonna sign the big you know, the big deals or whatever. But what you can do is this, if you have a podcast and it's a local pocket like get your on local. Even though you put on the podcast thing it's national, it's global global. But if you could build your brand up enough, you could be able to approach local businesses. Local like there's no rules to who can sponsor you
or who could pay for ads on your podcast. You get the corner if the corner store want to say you know what I mean, This Mike's Corner store, this Mike Hogy shop, or this what's his name cheese steak, or this what's called Charlie Hotter or the car dealer shop or the I'm telling you, I don't care all this clothing line and dependent clothing line. Anybody can sponsor your podcast and you come up, yeah, how you doing?
You know? How you doing? This is a this is to get this is to get down podcasts, you know, and we sponsored by Mikey's T shirts. It could be sponsored by anybody. Stop thinking that, you know, you just got to figure out what is the worth and itself. It's cool to build up like they might be. You might have somebody sponsoring your podcast and they might not be giving you money. They might be giving you the location to do it. Then you might have somebody sponsoring
your podcasts and they might buy you the equipment. They might buy you better mics, and they might buy you better if or whatever. Like you might don't you It might don't be about money. It might be a barter. You see what I'm saying. Somebody might sponsor your podcast. It depends on what you're looking for. I'm just saying anybody ain't probably don't get the money. You might have somebody to just give you the food for every time you have a podcast, Like it's different things.
Man.
You might go. You might go and get with the with's some places that they sell the mics and the speakers and all. Guitar Center might get a sponsor from Guitar Center. They might sponsor your equipment, make sure you got new stuff. And you say, yeah, this is brought to you by a Guitar Center. You know what I'm saying, Like we gotta understand like in this podcast game, it's just like it's like there's no real top flight structure on it. How you can be like how you know
what I mean? Who go? Like you really could create your own world and could create your own success off of this stuff. I'm talking about just anything that you could think of I'm talking about. I'm talking about anything. Could be a peanut company, it could be it could be anything I'm talking about. It could be RNs Strouss, it could be autozoned, it could be h I don't know, it could be just anything. It could be a print shop.
I mean, they can sponsor you, so so have the to just have to have the have that just the outlook of I could step to anybody, but make sure you got your you know, your infrastructure together, you got your you know, you know, your introduction kit together, and just go at people.
Man, I'm talking about but think about it. Anybody that's probably be an independent too. Yeah, cause if you're the umbrella of somebody else, then there might be some some language in there where you couldn't do it. But yeah, being independent skiing part.
That's so one thing you said about you know women always they show a lot of love and they give game and all that. And your lady is an entrepreneur. She ain't no joke, she's a monster.
She gives me game like she she give me game like we'll be sitting back, going in bed and just trading game. God's intentions, motivation, education were good, but that we play like it's like ping pong. She'd say something like dann, She's like, yeah, that's I say something. She was like, I'll be like damn that yeah. So and
and it's real, it's real. Uh, it's a nurturing. It's real nurturing when you got somebody that you can shoot back and forth and then in that mind is there that mind of understanding marketing and understanding the game, understanding the temperature of the environment, understanding that that's major.
Yeah, because I told you about all the time. It's like your partner could even make or break you, like.
They gonna either they gonna hold you down and hold you up.
That's right, absolute, That's.
A gym for sure. What made you want to get into the trademark game? Because I know you got a lot of I.
Told you it was a guy in jail that gave me the game, like he was he was an intellectual property attorney. It was arrested and he gave me the game by trademarks. Nice to read about it. And then I was always curious about brands, and I was, you know, growing up. You see that, see that logo, and you see that R two PAGs of what's name? Like what that?
And then you realize, I'm like trademark registered. It was deep, you know because New York versus the world, That's mine, New York versus the World is mine, Atlanta versus the World is mine, Philadelphia versus the World is mine, Houston versus the World is mine. Wallow two sixty seven is mine? Uh? Were on million dollars worth of game.
It's just like that.
No, that's not mine. Ain't just crazy a lot, it's crazy. It's cool. No, somebody had that, but it's cool. Uh, there's always money in Lanta, Philadelphia, all that stuff like New York, always money in real estate, always money in real estate.
That's big.
I forgot about that. But like, you know, it's so much more. But it's like I believe, you know, just trademark you stuff. It's simple a couple of hundred hours man.
And you're trademarking it on just the merch or being used in any.
Like basically I basically trademarking for what I use it for. You know what I mean. I mean it's just too many categories. That's something we have to learn too. It's like thirty category.
But like we learned that on the fly took We trademarked as a reliability. We trademarked or a leisure And I didn't know that when you trademark something, it's not just like our trademark it.
It's like twelve different categories sports, Like it's like.
Ertain Like you got furniture, you ain't gonna trademark for furniture, Like what's the point. You ain't gonna trademark for steel or irons and ship, you know what I mean. So it's like it's different stuff different countries to different countries too.
Now it's dope and it's like all this stuff is just we just learning, like you know what I mean. That's the whole thing with the podcast. It's like it's so much stuff that we don't know.
It's like we just I like, y'all learn and y'all give it out. That's it. That's the key. That's the key, that's the back.
So speaking of the podcast, you got you got you gotta announcement. Man, by the time this episode drops, you.
You know, we signed a partnership with a bar Sports and it was a great partnership of you know, just a nice and nice partnership. They coming in and they're helping us. They really putting gasoline on the situation, and they understand our brand. They respected, We got all created. We keep all creative control because it's a partnership, you know what I mean. We didn't sell our brand. We didn't sell you know what I mean, sell our stuff,
and uh it's great man, like this stuff. You know, we did that within like thirty seven episode thirty six, we close it down. I mean we was able to negotiate something. Uh. We was in talk with other companies like Spotify, you know, other people, and it was like it's great, man, it was like it was all great commos. Man. Everybody came at us, right, you know. We we we we we went with the uh, we went with the company. We fell as though it's gonna be uh, it's gonna
be more mutually beneficial for both of us. And we're gon we're gonna be able to win. Yeah, man, win the team that man. Congratulations for sure.
And once you said it's like when you get high, it's like the law of inertia, like once something gets moving, it's it like and I always tell people all a time, like when you have a spark of fire, you gotta throw gasoline on it.
And it's the gasoline, come gasoline on it. This serious guya.
Ah wow, man, I appreciate that, man, thank you for.
I had to come, man, I had to come and show y'all some love y'all, y'all keep doing y'all thing. Y'all gonna be big y'all in the space by y'allself y'all giving them game, y'all, Educating our people, y'all, y'all making our people want to want to want look forward to information. That's major when y'all can because y'all, because it's like it's digestible as you know, and you know,
it's just so simplistic, and that's major. You know. I think sometimes people get the education and they just want to be so far up they just try to throw just to show that they're smart. Y'all not trying to show y'all smart. Anybody to be smart, and that's major, man. And I think y'all gonna do big things. Keep doing the live show, keep the merch company, keep keep building partnerships for you know, brands and companies that that want that that's going to add value to what y'all going
and can enhance you all visibility out here. And I think everything is going to play out. Man. Y'all ain't got nothing to worry about. Man. Appreciate Appreciate that, bro. Appreciate that, bro. Choice some house keeping itye on.
Yeah, shout out to everybody on patreon dot com that is our Proud to pay program. As you know, we put bonus content you get the episodes Early you get to talk to him, a shot of myself and if you're a Tier four or five member, you know you have access to E y L University out online school that is moving crazy. Obviously, we have our merch on, so shout out to everybody's been supporting the merch on
Early leisure dot com. Should you want to talk about Oh wait, before I go, I gotta give a shout out to some new members on Patreon because they be like, oh man, you ain't shout me out. So I want to give a big shout out to a Lisa, shout out to Kyle, and shout out to Maurice. Maurice actually is a Tier four member, so you have access to Tier four. Shout out to you, and yeah, e y L University. Three times a week we are on there. We have a Monday episode with Matt talking about different
topics in real estate. Wednesday we have a guest webinar. A lot of times it's our alumni that come on, so definitely check them out. And then Thursday with a shot of myself. I don't even know why I say with shot shoddy of myself, we uh, we do a different business lesson so that's dope. And we got e y l spol launching in twenty twenty, so it's.
Time, y'all.
Every community needs to have financial literacy and we're gonna make sure that we are the pillars that can provide that.
EYL University, that's the we started our own school. So we teach three classes a week, legend, a lot of games, a lot of games, a million dollar.
Million dollars, a million dollars, big bat, don't forget at l January twenty fifth, twenty six.
We are coming. We bring everybody with us. Is going to be huge, huge, huge. We're going to do it real, real big for the city. The whole a is gonna come out looking forward to a book.
Tip of the.
Week none other than our guy, Maurice Clorette one and done one And that's right, Maurice, that's my guy, man legend, good dude man, he's he's actually you introduced me to him and we develop our own relationship after that, and he excused me, Yeah, he's.
A good dude. Man. He was like, I messed with them and I'll jumped down and hold up call way through it yo yo, yoah, listen, you reach on the fall Oh yeah, go ahead talk Yeah for sure.
So yeah, man, thank you guys rocking with us. We'll see you next week. Peace, Peace, Peace, Coach.
The energy out there felt different. What changed for the team today? It was the new game day scratches from the California Lottery players.
Everything.
Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.
Are you saying it was the off field play that made the difference on the field.
Hey, little play makes your day, and today it made the game.
That's all for now, Coach.
One more question played the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco forty nine Ers and Los Angeles Ram scratchers from the California Lottery. A little play can make your day. Peace, pay responsibily. Must be eighteen years or older to purchase plate or claim