EYL #287 Stephen A. Smith On Learning From Being Fired From ESPN, TV Contracts, & The Business of New Media

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the closest to but see you thinking about that. To me, I'm thinking about the closest the Knicks been or the title. That was the closest they've been at Game seven against.

of the most beautiful people you never meet in your life. Yeah.

Oldris as well. It wasn't for them, I wouldn't be where I am today.

So they're saying John Caliparry is going to start with at least five million dollars, and a lot of people aren't really familiar with the NIO collective.

that's not what has happened. We've had coaches having a myriad of ways to generate revenue for themselves, clinics, coaching in summertime, salaries, they've earned speaking engagements, et cetera, et cetera. We've seen the athletes perform, and we've seen the money come back to the universities. And what do they do? They funnel it throughout the universities. The administrators get a little bit more, the chancellors, the provost presidents, they get

a little bit more. Different other programs within the school that are non generate revenue generating sports they benefit from it. But the very athlete who went out there and perform and generated this level of interest is somebody that you couldn't find it within yourself to ensure that you would.

You would, they would be compensated in some capacity. And the reason why it resonates with me so profoundly is because you know, I remember when Chris Webber fab five Michigan and those guys were complaining about stuff and whatever, and you have these folks on the having you know, under the mentality, you know, you're getting a scholarship. You're getting a scholarsip. You should be happy, but they were never happy. And how much of a stickler you were

if folks got flights home. In Chris Webber's case, you're going into a bookstore and you're seeing a uniform, a jersey with your name on it. But if the store gave it to you for free as a violation, you know, stuff like that. You know that you're getting a vast majority of these high profile athletes from desolate environments and backgrounds, and you're telling them they can't fly home for the holidays. They can't get a car, they can't you know, you

couldn't even rent them a car whatever. It might have been a violation. So those kind of things, you would think they would have had the decency to be a bit lax and to understand with all the money that these athletes were generating, that, you know what, you could turn a blond out of certain things. All right. If the guy want to go home for the holidays, let

him go. If somebody wants to come if the parents want to be flown in for you know, to be with him for Christmas because he can't, you know, he can't go home and see him. All right, we could turn the bloder. He didn't do any of that. You kept you would dog it in restricting what the athletes can get. So now that's not the case. You know, you read what yourself and the headaches that come with it, the coaches that can't take it. Cal no Doubt is

leaving Kentucky in part because of that. Nick Saban no doubt retired because of that.

were his That was his terminology. He was completely turned off and utterly disgusted as to how things had transformed and how it changed, and I didn't blame him. I didn't think he was wrong. I was just saying the NCAA brought it on themselves because of how they were. So if these athletes find a way now to get paid more, power to them. Power to them.

and four years didn't make the n CAA tournament. Okay, so you're at Kentucky, which is blue blood? Okay, we know what Huh can we throw away that turn? No? Who's is you common? Blue blood? Yes? What is so defined? Blue blood? Lengthy period of time in which your dominant shines, where you're relevant, you're a big time program. You know, you're constantly in the mix for national type. The level of notoriety you gain is different from what the average

school gets. Like for example, Villanova's won a couple of national championships. We're going to talk about Villanova in that regard. Georgetown won back in the day. We want to talk about them in that regard. North Carolina has been relevant since the sixties seventies. Duke has been relevant since Newton Skrzyzewski arribbed in the eighties. Bill self had Kansas relevant since the eighties. Kentucky with Patino add of rope oviously

before him with them Patino, Tubby Smith. Now you got Coli par in twenty twelve he wins a national title. Those are the content that when you're talking about blue Blood, you're talking about programs essentially that could recruit itself. You mentioned that program and everybody you know, you you come knocking on somebody's door, They're gonna open that door and listen to what you have to say. A lot of schools heard, No, not those programs.

and so, and not only that. Part of it is not worrying about the finances because your alumni base and the money that's funneled into the program is not something that you have to concern yourself with because the school will always be people to take care of those folks. That's Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina, u c LA, Kansas. And now you come from a financial standpoint, even from a financial absolutely, because the absolutely.

You got the Eddie Jones, the Eldon Campbell's of the world and Nick van X's of the world and people like that on your squad. Okay, so guess what we could hoodwink these brothers into taking this deal. And they did that with Charlotte because they had Charlott saying, Okay, this brother's got potential, but it's probably years down the road. Why don't you take the center of Vla de Divac, who's more than a serviceable center than some supplementary parts.

And then you know, by the way, we'll take Kobe Bryant in that sit not realizing Kobe was gonna be Kobe. But Jerry West was known as a guy that had that eye and at that time in terms of a talent evaluator, which is why when he elected to pass up years later as a consultant for the Clippers who had the twelfth and thirteenth pick on Michael Porter Junior, everybody was like, really, there must be something wrong with Michael Porter because there's no way on earth that that

eye that Jerry West has with miss out on his talent. Well, it wasn't. His talent is that Michael Porter Junior was perceived as having back issues because he had an injury plagued history coming into the Pros. And then while sitting in the draft room, they were talking monitoring how slow he was getting up from his chair, and it looked like he was coming into the league with back problems and stuff like that, and that's why they passed up

on him. I'm just saying all of that to say, Kobe Bryant, even though a lot of people didn't see how great he would recognize how great he would be. Jerry West was one of those people that was privately telling folks, you have no idea, this brother the second coming. He's gonna be special, but just really.

not reflected on their resume. When you have somebody like Lebron James who literally was drafted to the worst team in the NBA and built that team up to an NBA contender before he left in an NBA champion when he came back, he should get extra points, right, because it's like I'm just saying.

to the situation he want. He went to Cleveland, had the number one overall pick from Akron, Ohio, thirty minutes away. He wanted to be there. He wanted to be there. That's what That's what he had, that's what he wants. Well, of course I understand it. Well, let me tell you he didn't have it harder than Jordan. But I will tell you this. Look at Jordan's roster. When Jordan came into the NBA. Look at who the coach was, look at who the players were. Okay, the point is that

that's not true. And then when you look at Lebron, you go to Cleveland. Certainly he didn't inherit much and nobody's denying that. I'm simply saying that when you look at his situation, he was where he wanted to be. Eli was where he wanted to be, Kobe was where he wanted to be, and all of those things are true.

You as a beat writer for the Philadelphia Inquiry at the time, covering him, building a relationship with him obviously has changed a lot for your career.

Every single year I went on vacation, every incident he got into was when I was on vacation, and meaning I had to come off vacation to deal with some mess that he had gotten himself in. It just never ever failed, and I just used to be so mad at him over that. Right, But when you talk about today's player, it's the avent of social media. It's the fact that they got a voice, is the fact that they don't necessarily need the fourth state, which is the media,

to disseminate any kind of message on their behalf. They feel they can do it themselves, and they never trusted the media. And as a result of for trusting the media, you were always looking for an excuse to have a different outlet. Back then, you didn't have it because social media didn't exist. No Instagram, no Facebook, no Twitter, and none of that. And so because that didn't exist, you

had no choice but to rely upon media. So the next best thing was to find somebody in the media that you could remotely trust to some degree, and that's pretty much how it happened. Michael Jordan had somebody that was mard Rashad. Isaiah Thomas had people as wise as he was he knew city, the city you know, or a national voice or whatever. He always had an outlet. Charles Barkley, same situation, Shaquille or Neil Patrick, you and another's There was always somebody And in Philadelphia, I was

that guy for Alan Iverson. But it was a bit different than an orthodox for me because I call it like I see it, not to say that other people did not, but they were, you know, they were a bit more cautious about it than I was. I didn't give a damn because my attitude is I'm not getting personal personal businesses. Your business. Long as you don't end up in the police bloggers or something like that where a bunch of people see you doing something, it's none

of my business. But your game is my business. That's what you do in a public forum. And when you perform in a public forum, I'm not gonna tell the audience they saw something different than I saw. If what I saw is what the audience saw, If what they saw is what I saw, I'm gonna I'm gonna confirm that no matter what, because that's something you did in

the public forum. Obviously, that doesn't endear you to the professional athletes sometimes, you know, they get upset, they grow to hate you in certain situations and all of that stuff. And if you are a journalist, and I think that when you fast forward to today, I don't think people realize that when they see me, they honestly act like I really give a shit that they don't like me. I mean, they listen man athletes, oh yeah, athletes, coaches, the list goes on, and it's not just them, it's

not just athletes. Well at times it can be. But I don't care. And the reason why I don't care is because of what I told you about not getting personal and sticking to the game. But number two, they don't know my background, my background as a journalist. You're not supposed to be in the business of making friends. You're not supposed to do that. You're supposed to call it like you see it. You're supposed to be in pursuit of the truth as best as you possibly can

get to it. That's what you're supposed to do. And most importantly than all, you're not supposed to care about friends being friends, meaning you're not supposed to care about that, not your friends, not If you cultivate a friendship, you develop a friendship. Sure, but I'm not walking in trying to be your friend. I'm walking in doing a job.

And over the course of doing a job, if we cultivate a relationship with one another, that's called There's plenty, and Alan Iverson or any professional athlete, coach, executive owner will tell you I don't say nor write a minimum seventy five percent of what I know I don't do that, but there's certain things that have to be said, and I'm gonna say it. Because we don't have things giving dinner together, we ain't exchanging Christmas gifts together, you don't

pay my bills. Have a job to do and I'm gonna do it. And so knowing that that's my background, it shocks me to this day how folks will sit up there and and say some of the things that they say. Folks will hate, or they'll talk about how they feel about me or whatever the case may be, and they never tell y'all why they give little vague notices about you know.

speak again in life, and that's fine. But I ain't got nothing but respect for the brother because he's doing what I want it all along him to be on the court, showcasing how marvelous he is as a basketball player, instead of finding one excuse after another to miswork. Now, I understand that COVID wasn't one of those things, or I understand, but Kyrie knows how much work he's missed, and he know COVID ain't the only reason why over the years. Now, I ain't gonna give details, but I

know him, okay. And so when you miss work and you still getting paid, but an audience out there doesn't get to see you put your marvelous skill sets on display. I have an attitude about that because I'm a basketball lover and I want to see that brother play. I think he's one of the greatest talents this game has ever seen, and I want to see him play. The COVID thing. Everybody wanted to ignore what I said. I said,

bump COVID. Everybody got that. I understand, I get it. Okay, I took the vaccine, but I know plenty of people who didn't. I don't blame him, I understand it. My point was that was the latest excuse to miss work, because there's a bevy of other times he misworked for excuses that had nothing to do with COVID. I'm like, how many excuses you're gonna invent? I meant it then, I mean it now. If he was here in front of my face, I tell him to his face, he knows.

But when it got personal, which is where it's my fault, not his, my fault, his father got involved and there was a tex exchange between me and his dad that I felt was personal and I felt crossed the line. That was when it got personal, not before then. That was when it got personal, because I'm like, hey, hey, you got your daddy involved, you understand saying and you know that you're wrong, because there's some things that went down

with me and Kyrie as none of anybody business. And let's just say I looked out and to roll up on me like I'm the enemy was offensive to me. And so because that was offensive to me, I addressed it properly. I have never told and I never will. That's his business, but he knows. And so when dad got involved and Dad knew I was really offended, and so we started, it was like no holds barred. Then it's like, I'm not inventing anything. I'm not making it up.

I'm just not trying to act like I'm neutral. I'm letting you know where I'm coming from, you know. In other words, at that moment, I didn't like your ass, and I was saying it unapologetically. But then, because we're gonna be real and honest and authentic, I'm at a Lakers game and Kyrie Irving rolls up on me. I got my back to I feel a slap in the back. Lakers playing playoffs and Kyrie rolls up on me. I just want to see if you're gonna have that same energy in my face and I looked right at him.

I said, do I look any different? Do I sound any different? I'm right here, And then he humbled me. He said, quote, yo, dog, at this point, it ain't even about me and you. It's really about you and my father. And you got me up in this mix. And it was like a punch in the face because at that moment I was like, I didn't realize it. And at that moment, I was like, you're right. And if you notice, at Laker games, our seats on the opposite side, across from the Lakers bench, but down so

it's across from the visitor's bench and down baseline. I left Kyrie that second, walked over to my seat, and I text his dad and I said, Kyrie just said this to me. He's right. If you want to meet, I will meet with you. I flew back to New York. The next week, me and his dad met up. We talked. We both fested up to what we did wrong to each other as men. He apologized. I apologized, and I apologized even more so because he ain't the journalist with the public platform. That was me. So I said I

was wrong even more so than you. I apologize your son was right. You're right. It will never happen again. And me and Pops have been cool ever since. We even text each other from time to time. How you doing, how's everything going, or whatever, because that's what men do. You know, I was wrong, and I have to own

up to that. You know, when I was years ago, you know, one of the things stories that I'm associated with his Glenn big Dog Robinson, and how he felt about me, and that's one of those times where it could have gotten ugly, you know, because he wanted to do some things to me, you know what I'm saying, and I wanted to do some things to him, and because I thought that he had gotten the coach fired Randieers after he succeeded Larry Brown and stuff like that.

We got into it in the Denver locker room, got my face blah blah blah, la ain't nobody backing up. And when that happened, the hostility that existed spanning years to the point where like we would stay each other down and then people like just walking between us because they just like this, this is unnecessary, it's ugly and all this other stuff, and it hit me there, I was wrong. Too, because my position was as a black man, to do that to that coach his first head coaching

job in the NBA. You know, you five at the fifty two games. He ain't gonna get another opportunity. You wouldn't have done that to George car You wouldn't have done that the lab Brown, but you did it to him. Blah blah blah. But then I said, wait a minute. I'm usually pretty damn good at this. I didn't zero in on my professionalism. I let it go in my commentary. But also what really hit me his son was in Houston and they had a game. I'm trying to remember.

I think it was the Warriors game against the Rockets. Playoffs all the side, and I forgive me if I don't remember the regular season playoffs. But I saw his son, and his son was hesitant to speak to me. I didn't go up to talk to him. I just walked by Glenn robson the third and I just walked up and I saw how nervous he looked, like I was going to do something wrong to him, and I said nah, And I rolled right up on him and I said, whatever happened with me and your dad, it's my fault

professional journalists. I'm the one that's got this platform. I said, I shouldn't have taken it this far. I don't want you thinking for one second than anything that you do is gonna be influenced by me and your dad's relationship. I've never seen Glenn Robinson again, but I told him, if I see your dad, I will walk up to your dad and I will apologize, because that ain't right. You know, when you see a kid ain't got nothing to do with it, he walking around fidgety about what

you're gonna say about him or what I'm like. Damn you know that I can't let that happen. And so those are the two I only bring up those two incidents because those are the two incidences that stand out, and those are the one the two incidences where I genuinely feel I was.

was you. So I'm wondering from winstin stalem See to beat writer for the Philadelphia Inquiry to being on the ESPN I told you beforehand, I was there when you were ESPN Radio in New York Suthern ten fifty at noon, this is this is part of my lunch break, to being on TV, to having first take, to being the EP of the show, and now for all likelihood having

the crown when it comes to sports media. Was this all part of the plan or are we finding new avenues as your career is expanding, your finding new experiences.

that support. So I'm humbled in regards to that. I know that my blessings come from some from from above, and I'm constantly mindful of that. But I also know why I give myself credit is my relentless pursuit for success and for excellence A and just as significant of an A. It's basically understanding how to see the forest from the trees. When I was in Philadelphia at the Philaelphin in quir recovering the seventy six Ers in two thousand and one, this was what changed the course of

my career. I'm breaking stories. They got this guy Phil Jazz and the God Arrested Soul used to write for Philelphia Daily News covering the Sixers for decades, and they had these other writers and it got to a point where everything basketball wise, it was my town. If there was a story coming out of New Philadelphia in the sport of basketball. It was coming through me. I was just I was on a roll and I was that successful.

And the seventy sixers get to the finals, they make that run Vince and Ai and the semifinals Toronto Philadelphia going back, dropping fifty plus on each other. It was unbelievable. It was so that series was so sensational. Toronto had beaten Philly with Vince Carter I think scoring fifty four that night, and Billy King was like, are you seeing this? This is fantastic. After loss, He's like, I ain't never seen nothing like this. I mean, these cats going at it like I mean he was. It was like it

was that kind of atmosphere between Toronto and Philadelphia. It was electric. Man. And then in the finals, Philly went in the Conference finals, they went against Big Dog and and Ray Allen and Sam Counsell and those boys. Both series went seven games. Philadelphia went. And then in Game one of the NBA Finals, it's the first time I ever met Denzel Washington. I'm at the Staples Center, which is just open, and I'm walking towards the tunnel and somebody comes up and wraps their arm around me, and

it's Denzel I had never met him. He's like, so tell me what the Lake's gonna do. The Lake's gonna do this. You know what I'm saying as the first time I ever met him. And I said, oh, this is done in five, y'all. God damn. He was like, anybody got no answer for Shack and Kobe on a come up? I mean, sopful a. They got no shot, I said, And I said, well, he said why not? Why not? A sweet why five? And I said the same thing that I said on a national sports report

on Fox Sports. I said, AI get you on. It was my exact words, AI get you on. He drove forty eight, Game one, stepped over ty Lou, you know, did his thing, blah blah blah. Through those playoffs, me being number one, I was reduced to writing an eight hundred word article and that was it. Trying to build

subscribers for the newspaper. They brought in the investigative team to features write, a team and people from other departments all pouring in writing every possible thing they could about the playoffs because subscribers was buying a newspaper and that's how they was making their money. And I was like, not that you don't know it's about money, because you get you get that everything's about money, but it's slapped me in the face. My level of production, what I

was bringing to the table meant nothing to them. Nothing. All they cared about was generating those dollars through subscribers and folks buying the newspapers during the playoffs, shot through the playoff front. So it was an eye open up for me because it just refreshed my mind and reminded me that everything comes down to business. And so think the money, where's the money at, where's it coming from, what's gonna where the money's gonna get funneled from. Pay

attention to that as you move forward. And that's how sports talk radio. You getting paid seventy five hundred thousand for the newspaper, you getting paid three four hundred, five hundred thousand for radio, you know, you getting paid a million for television. That's how it was back how much it was the beat writ again at that time for me,

I was at about seventy five thousand. No, but it was ultimately because I started working for CNNSI and then after that Fox Sports Philadelphia wanted to keep me in toe so they came to me and they had boosted my salary up to one hundred and fifty thousand, right plus you know Fox Sports, I was getting about another one hundred and seventy five thousand, So I'm like, cool, that was good. But I'm just saying that for me.

I saw that, and I said, newspaper's dying. You saw the cachet of ESPN, dot com elevator, you saw digital coming into play. You saw newspapers they were panicky because the executive was talking about there was a subscriber base was dipping and stuff. And suddenly I started That's when I went from reading the sports sections to reading the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal in Bloomberg News, and you know, I started reading those things paying attention. Okay,

the economy, they're saying this is bad right now. They're talking about inflation, they talk about this that all right, the unemployment rate is dipping because you know, when white folks catch cold, black folks catching pneumonia, so it's always worse for us. So I'm like, whatever the situation was, I'm like, it's gonna be worse for us. And I'm like, what am I gonna do? The position myself and from that point forward, I would always be forward thinking in that regard.

of credit. But Nightcap ain't nothing to sleep on either with him and o Cho Senko may and kill and give it arenas you know, so major props to them for that. But I would tell you that you know, when you see the paradigm shifting in our media business, it's because the public has stated we're not interested in linear television as much as we have. What people are confused about is that doesn't mean they're not interested in the content that linear television provides. They just want it

in a different platform than linear television provides. They don't want it on a TV screen where you got to buy a TV. They want to be able to watch it on it.

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Secretary of Homeland Security. Under President Trump, Attempted illegal border crossings are at the lowest levels ever recorded, and over one hundred thousand illegal aliens have been arrested. If you are here illegally, your next you will be fined nearly one thousand dollars a day, imprisoned, and deported. You will never return. But if you register using our CBP home app and leave now, you could be allowed to return legally.

Do what's right. Leave now, under President Trump, America's laws border and families.

amusement partner. Then out there. I want to go to Cony of You in New York, You and Brooklyn. I want to go to Coney Island. Well, hell, I want to go to six Flags. Well, damn it, not six Flags. Now, I want to go to six Flags down in Virginia. Okay. Oh by the way, now let me go to Disneyland. Oh that's the Anaheim. Oh damn it, Disney World. I'd rather go there. You see what I'm saying. History has shown us that these transitions, that trans that take place,

it's dictated by our youth. Not financed by it, but dictated by it. Because if you're a parent, you're going to give the kid what they want for the most part, if you can afford to do it and they deserve it. Well, guess what. That's exactly what's happening now. The kids are telling the parents who happen to be executives at the

linear networks, this is what we want. Not only that, streaming has proliferated, and so when you look at Amazon, Apple, you know, Netflix and everybody else with you know, Prime Video, all of this stuff. They've created different platforms that has forced the linear world to capitulate to the direction that it's going in sooner than it would have liked. And as a result, you're seeing a dwindling number. But it makes me laugh being at ESPN when people act like

ESPN is losing this audience. No, we're not. We're just losing it on digital. I'm sorry, on linear, me losing it in digital stratos fere go. Check out ESPN YouTube's number, esben YouTube numbers. Look at them compared to everybody else. Look at their numbers. You understand they can talk about Disney Plus and stuff all they want to. Well, we're talking billions upon billions of dollars that are being generated.

You saw that there was recently a shareholders meeting where it maintained Viviger remaining as the CEO of Walt Disney. What has he been talking about? We ain't losing. We ruling out Disney Plus. We've seen them drop the ESPN phone in the past. We've seen them drop other stuff in the past. How come you ain't say goodbye to Disney Plus? How come you ain't say good bye to the ESPN plus because there's money to be generated there. You just got a master. They are trying to figure

out what to do with ESPN. Yes, no, no, but that's only because again, as a linear platform. As a linear platform, okay, we might pair with Warner Brothers and Fox and what have you, because we got to compete with the market cap that is Amazon and Apple, all right, and even combined they're worth about a little under four hundred ESPN, Warner Brothers, Discovery, Fox, you worth about under four hundred billion. Well, Apple, Amazon, y'all know this better

than me, because y'all experts in this field. There worth nearly three trillion apiece. So that's what you're competing with. They just don't choose to specialize in the sports landscape the way that ESPN does. So what I'm saying to you is you come to me years ago. I now knew none of this. I paid attention to none of this. But now I'm looking at everything that's transpiring and how they're doing business where our audience lies. You can't tell me,

for example, first Take. This is the success story of First Take in an age where the linear audience is dwindling and fading and shows are getting canceled. Our ratings are up. We're at a point now where I'm measured against me, the show is measured against it year over year.

how could in a less audience. Of course, we still have the audience. They're just watching us in different platforms and you got to know what those platforms are and how to monetize it so you know how to make your money. But the audience hasn't faded. It's just that they've said, we want to watch y'all on different platforms. We don't want to rely on the TV to do it.

you're starting to see the club. Chase's right, like, yes, you have your own YouTube channel, right, six hundred thousand subscribers, congratulations on that, thank you.

you don't know what I want. Let me be very clear. I'll state exactly what I want on this show right now. I want to position myself to stay the best, to be as profitable as I can possibly be, and to be not just a revenue generator, but a revenue sharer. That is what I am after. It is always what I was after. But people don't realize that when you talk about this, because you brought up the questions. So I'm gonna get to your point about you know, in terms of my plan and building my stuff and what

it was all about. Everybody knows. ESPN five me. In two thousand and nine, we had a contract dispute. I thought that I deserved more than they offered. I was appalled at the offer they made me. I did not

like it. I did not appreciate it. I felt disrespected and I said no, not realizing that they were going to say, effort, you can leave, and that they had all the leverage on the planet because the same person that saw the forest from the trees and newspaper got cocky and didn't pay attention to the landscape in television and two thousand and eight going into two thousand and nine. So I'm here thinking, just make sure my phone's turned off. So I'm here thinking, fellas.

So all I had was radio, which was expendable, and sports and appearances. You didn't have a definitive place where you knew to catch me. So what did they do under the old regime. They signed me a contract in two thousand and eight. They give me six hundred thousand dollars less than what I had turned down, okay, and less at than what their initial offer was. Right then on top of it all, they kept me off the air all of a sudden, y'all didn't see me, you

didn't hear me. What happened to stephen A still in the contract, still employed, showing up to a game in Atlanta for the playoffs from Miami and Atlanta. It's all of my books, straight shooter showing up to the game, and I'm writing for ESPN dot com and I wasn't

allowed on Sports Center. You're talking about a brother that would be on the air, and went from being on the air two hundred and fifty to three hundred days out of the year to being on the air three times, and so as a result, out of sight, out of mind. So when the additional contract came or when the contract came down in two thousand and nine that I was

looking for, there was no contract. We've decided were going to move in a different direction, and I had no recourse because they had spent the year the previous year diluting my potency because I wasn't seen nor heard from by the audience, and ultimately it stripped me or whatever potency I had, I had no leverage. And then on top of it all. Let's call it what it is. I'm a brother. So what happens is is that you get let go or there must be sinno. He might

not be somebody we want to mess with. We don't need to touch him. And and I was toast and that reality hit me, and it was the scariest shit that ever happened to me. Because I'm a new dad. I'm unemployed. You know, I had lost my job at the Philadelphia Inquiry at the time because I was beefing with new management because they didn't want me there any longer because I was doing so much work in New York for ESPN and I was never in Philly, and so everything came like a tsunami all at one time.

And so when that experience happened, and ultimately I'm unemployed for ten and a half months, living off my savings. Okay, from that point forward, I get back into Fox Sports Radio. I get a guid that's the former president of Cumulus Radio, Mike McVeigh, that is tutoring me on radio on how to do radio right, but more importantly, prioritizing with me the importance of learning the business. You thought you were popular, but you didn't know where was your data, what was

your ratings? What kind of revenue did you have did you generate? Do we know where to find you? Are you appointment viewing? And when I saw all of that and I recognized that, I said, the worst thing they could possibly do is give me a shot, a second chance, because what happens is is that I'm gonna study this business. So I get back in Skip Bayles's comes to me. Bys's no, not a call. We're in a parking lot

of Bristol, Connecticut, ESPN headquarters outside of building four. Skip says, I know you got your dreams and your visits are doing NBA blah blah blah, he said, but I need you. He didn't need me for ratings, they were doing fine, but on an everyday basis, he needed someone he felt he could trust on a five day a week basis that was gonna bring that heat, bring that energy, and somebody he felt and his words wasn't gonna backstab them. And so he said, there's only one man, and he said,

I need you to do this for me. Remember in two thousand and one, they were gonna give us our own show to go up against PTI. When we were both at Fox. But what happened was is that at the eleventh hour, for some reason, David Hill, the boss of the Fox at the time, they'll go with it. And so fast forward, this is eleven years later and here we are, and he asked me to do it. I thought about it, and I said, he's right, because I want my own show. They probably ain't gonna get

me my own show again. They gonna probably leave me on the NBA or whatever. This is the thing to do. Let me go ahead and do it. I come on board. We skyrocket to number one in one month. One month we were number one on the ESPN two, which was a big deal because the ESPN two wasn't getting that kind of shine. And then from that point forward everything happened.

And so now we fast forward twenty fifteen and then ultimately twenty and nineteen and negotiations take place, and I'm a different beast because I walk in there and it's no ain't no emotion. These are my numbers. This is what I deserve. Can I have that place? Well, Steven, we think you deserved to say, okay, but these are my numbers. And instead of them saying go after yourself, they were here, I was here, We met here. You see what I'm saying, and so from that point forward,

it just prioritized for me knowing the business. We fast forward to now the business has changed. It's about you got so many people about podcasting. Listen. I didn't want to advertise this to everybody or whatever. And I'm not saying it's not a podcast. I got a great deal with our Heart Radio for the next year and a couple of months or so that expires co terminus with my ESPN contract. You know when that key is being

contract and so does everything else. You know, for me, from a negotiating standpoint, that's best suited for me, that's what I negotiated. Yes, it's a podcast. In terms of the audio portion. I built the studio. I built a television studio. When you look at First Take or Get Up or shows like that, the PTZ cameras, the JIB and the JIB operators and the producers, that's what I have. I'm not here for a podcast. I'm here for a show. I'm here to not just produce my show, but to

find young talent to produce shows for. I'm not here to do just the sports show. I could do a late night show. I could do a daytime show. I could do a political show similar to Real Time with Bill Maher, the Daily Show, you know, stuff like that. It can go in any direction. The space that I do it in is rented. Everything in the space is owned by me with the sole express purpose of building

Mister Sas Productions, which is my production company. So when people are talking about a podcast or whatever, first of all, my podcast it was never a sports podcast. It was listed under what is it a society in society and culture? Society and culture. That's number one, number two. It was that way. If you remember, it was originally called No Mercy. I wasn't allowed to use my name initially, and then ESPN gave me permission later because I still have an

employee contract, I had to carve out my independence. So all of these years, people like yourselves and great, by the way, major congratulations to y'all. Y'all got a damn million followers crowd now doing y'all thing. Major props to y'all well deserved, well deserved. But what I'm saying is, well, what y'all are doing. I said this to Shannon because Shannon's like, don't you think about doing this. Don't you

think about doing that? I said, Yo, Shannon, You're a former athlete, a three time super Bowl champion, Hall of Famer, Cam and Mace hip hop artists doing their thing. You brothers doing your thing. You got to remember I didn't have that independence. I had an employee contract, and when I came back in two thousand and nine, I wasn't in a position to have my independence. I haven't now, and so now it's a different animal because this is what I waited for.

it like that within that company period. Okay, but they understand business better than me, and if the opportunity is great for me to stay, I'm happy to stay. If they feel differently than I do, then I got to be ready to make moves. But it's a beautiful thing because the level of freedom that y'all have had, that athletes have, that former athletes have, former artists or present

artists have, I never had. I have been an employee all my life, full time employee, meaning one until a year ago when I carved out the independence to do my podcast, to build my production company, and to have that separate and apart from ESPN. So when everybody looks and they're saying, you know, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and I'm looking at the numbers, but I'm looking at cats been doing this, doing this for years, doing that for years. You know. Major props to the mcafees of

the world to build Simmons of the world. Joe Rogan's a beast. I mean, these guys are phenomenal, make no mistake about it. They deserve all the credits in the world. They've been doing this seven, eight, twelve, twenty years. I'm at one. I'm coming. This is what I've been waiting for all my life. So I'm fifty six and i feel like I'm going on twenty six. I'm just getting started. Because I've never had had the freedom and what so many of these fools and social media and the trolls

and all of them don't realize it. You brothers, the brothers that I mentioned, Shay Shay, you know, all of these cats, the athletes, y'all will never know how thankful I am to y'all because y'all had a level of courage and bravery to exercise your freedom. I didn't have the freedom, so I didn't have the courage to push for it for so long until recently. That's why you see me when people call you like, damn, he did this interview, He did this interview, He did that interview.

It's my way of showing my gratitude because everybody that's doing it, it's like, yo, y'all, I'm not hating. I'm thankful, you know what I'm saying. Even with Pat McAfee. I mean, I'm a brother. He's a white boy, know say and white doing and all of that stuff, because we know the rules are different for them than it is for us. But I can't even tell you how grateful I am

to him. He came and ESPN gave him that Wait a minute, they gave him now he on YouTube, Well what they gonna get to the brother that's literally on ESPN and has been there for twenty years. I wrote down the numbers. You see what I'm saying. Those are those are the kind of things that I'm talking about. And so I'm looking at Bill Simmons, you Spotify, and I'm looking at Joe Rogan and Spotify and now Apple. I'm watching it all. And when I come to the table, yeah,

I'm gonna have all those numbers. Yeah, can I read some of them? Sure? All right? So we talked about McAfee.

they're all excellent, but they're all also white men. So his thing is that sports football and basketball, which dominate the ratings, are dominated by black people for the most part, and he felt that he had an issue that why is there no black people that's getting paid at the highest level when there's obviously a lot of black people that are qualified that have played the sports, that have not played the sports but still know about the sports,

like yourself, and he when he kind of went through these numbers, and I never really looked at it like that because nobody really looks at how much, you know, sports analysts are making. But I'm like, damn, that's that's that's interesting and it's pretty alarming as well. Right, So what's your take on that?

had to deal with. Let me tell you what our problem is as black people, and I'm gonna say it because I can. When Michelle and Barack Obama didn't do that, we instantly understood you can't do that. They're trying to win to presidency. It's gonna cost the vault, right, we understand that. But when it comes to our own selves in corporate America, we don't get that. All of a sudden,

we got selective amnesia. That's nonsense. That's nonsense. It's not about whether Jalen Rose is right or not, because I'm not refuting what he's saying the point that he was bringing up. But there's a game that has to be played. Did you play it well enough? Because Hee in two thousand and nine, I didn't, and I got burned. Now if I said that, when white folks catch a cold, black folks catching the modia, meaning that it's always gonna be worse for us than it is for white folks.

Ain't that another way of saying that. Ain't that an example that falls under that umbrella. So this is me if I knew y'all personally and we vibed one another, and you trusted me with your business in terms of just confiding in me, right, and then I see you doing something because you told me what your goals were and what your ambitions were. But then I see you doing something that's gonna compromise that, I'm gonna pick up the phone.

even if it's dressed like this. Is how I addressed Eve, and I said, you don't mind it affecting your money? He said not at all. I said, my dog, because he said I don't mind it affecting my money. Now, if he had said, I still want to make this, I'd have been like, now, I see now, I got a problem with you because I'm because the formulas at some point, at every it changes. It's not the same now but back in the day, because this was back in the day. Back in the day, the formula was the formula.

So what you're gonna do to maneuval your way around it. You could be in the financial sector, you know things I hope to know. There are things that you know good and damn well, you got to deal with that. Ain't fair, It ain't right. That ain't on an up and up. But it comes with it. And so for me, there's a way that you have to maneuver your way around it. It'll never make them right for paying some folks other than they pay others. But you brought up

the names of ESPN. Let me tell you something right now, I can sit here as a black man and tell you I don't have a single solitary problem with any dollars they paid to anybody. Pat McAfee was kicking ass with over two million subscribers on YouTube when they decided we want to embrace the world of digital and this is a dude that we can do that with. There's nothing to talk about with Troy Aikman and Joe Buck.

You do understanding, No, No, that's not the reason is that do you understand they pay for themselves?

Where we're talking about sports media ESPN. I'm willing to bet that we would not have had the Dallas Cowboys Tampa Bay Buccaneers playoff game if Troy eight Men and Joe Bunk weren't calling it. You know how much money that one game generates for a network? They pay for themselves. They pay for themselves. Anybody that would look You look at a Kirk curvesheet, ABC, Amazon, You look at Mike Greenberg Morning Show, the Ultimate Host. You look at the

people that they paid. My god, Tom Brady, that's Fox. Yes. Tom Brady is a seven time champion who, by the way, is pretty damn articulate, can be very opinionated. Just go watch him on the Steven A. Schiptcher. When I interviewed them on YouTube channel a few months ago. Listen to this brother talk football. He had the audition, and they probably said, oh shit, this we got some in here, gonna lock this brother for ten years. That's not it. What I've said is I pay attention to all of

those numbers because my turn is coming. Espn never came. They never heard me come to them and say, rip up my contract. I don't want to honor it. They never heard me say I ain't showing up to work. I want more. No, all anybody has heard me say, people who succeed at a very high level usually get awarded according to the market. So all I do is

watch the market. No one wrote for folks to make money in this business more than me, because I'm looking at the market and I'm going like this, ah, franchise, That's how much money's out here, franchise And I'm loving it. I'm saying it's like it makes me laugh. Like now we got Shannon shopping. He was on Fox and his career was over and all of this nonsense. Now, I wasn'tletting that happen to that brother. Okay, oh but damn he on first take.

No Mercy wouldn't pop up. So now that it's the steven A. Smith Shaw gets, guess what pops up. That's why I've got over six hundred thousand subscribers in year one. I'm looking at that, and the mistake people make is they think, oh, we ESPN, what you're gonna do? You gonna pay them? Nah, I'm very confident that ESPN is gonna be fair by me. If they're not, then that's a different story. But don't I don't think that's gonna be a problem. I tell you, my bosses show nothing

but love to me. My point is, I'm shocked that everybody hasn't brought up all the other opportunities because there's a big world out there, and I'm coming to it for the first time. I am. I got the excent of a twenty six year.

by you and handpicked by me. I think a jj Reddick and his first encounters were on First Take. You now see him have a show with Lebron. It's like that starts from having that dialogue and going back and forth.

So I'm definitely about that, but also about the fact that you know, journalistic integrity matters, because I want anybody that's in front of me to know that I live on that. And what I mean by that is this, it doesn't matter what I feel, whatever your story is, you have a right to tell. Even at my worst, with those two incidences, if they said something, if there was something that was there, I never, ever, ever in my career have intentionally reported it's something false. I don't

take stuff out of context. I don't do that. I don't live I will put my personal integrity and humanity on center stage. Name the time and place and the audience, and I'll show up. That's me. That's what I live on. So that in that regard journalistic integrity. Absolutely on a personal side, man, it's amazing what age does to you. When I think about myself two years ago I'm in the hospital. It's New Year's Eve. I got COVID. I

got double pneumonia in both lungs. I'm not breathing while doctors tell me we're gonna try the steroid and it's an about it. It's your work in about three to four hours. If it doesn't work, we gotta call your family in the world trouble. It was that bad, and I couldn't believe it, because, you know, God bless her. You know, very few people on the planet are closer to me, to my youngest sister, Carmen. I got four

older sisters. She's my youngest. My sister Carmon and I are very very tight, but calm and smokes every day. Carmen got COVID on a Friday. She was find that Monday, and I'm sitting there. I don't do this stuff, and I'm on death's door and I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. Comet believe it, you know. And I experienced that I had had surgery on both shoulders, both torm rotator cuffs and both shoulders, needs that I hadn't addressed

in years. I dressed all of that, and then I had this going on and I had so much happen to me that a few months later, because I couldn't do anything, I couldn't get in the weight room, I couldn't get in the gym and train, nothing like that. It was months months later before I could do that when a doctor finally told me, you get to go.

I did all of this, and I feel better than I felt since I was in my early twenties. That's how good I feel compared to what I once was a couple of years ago. I bring all of that up to say, my life is going this way if all I got to show for it is what I benefit. I just woke up one day and I didn't feel good. I was like, yo, man, there's a lot of brothers and sisters out here that could use my help, my expertise, what I bring to the table, Give them some shine,

give them some my opportunity. And it became more important to me. Not to say that it wasn't before, but it became more important to me than ever before to be somebody who gives back. I smiled when Ryan Clark

got his new contract. I smiled when Shannon got an extension to the deal that's gonna keep him through the NBA season, Because when I originally signed him, he's only supposed to be on till the Super bowls Now he's now he's on through the rest of the NBA season, and I'm quite sure they're gonna give him something down the line. The dan Olowski's the Marcus Spears of the world.

You know JJ Reddick, you know, I mean, don't get me right of the I mean we we we're cool with each other, but I don't know him like that. But I got a tremendous respect Molly, you know, my matriarch on the show, and what she brings to the table. The Kimberly Mars Monica mcnuts of the world call the nick Games and all of this other stuff. First Take is a flagship platform now that you that that takes folks in springboardwards them for additional opportunities, and they were

handpicked by me. And it makes me feel good, It really really does. Man. I don't I don't know how to explain it, but you know, I don't want to sound too damn old, but I damn They'll feel like a proud parent when I see these folks maximizing the opportunities and taking advantage of Because when Max and I Max Killerman and our party ways, when when we when they when they handed the show to me as an EP, I knew what they were doing. Yes, so on you now get it done or else? You know. It was

like that. And I went to all of these contributors one by one, called them or met him face to face. Jeff Saturday, let me not forget him too that I think he does a fantastic job for Paul Fine, bamb you know, Joe Fort and Bab with the gambling gaming, all of these people. I went to them, everybody that contributes the First Take, and I said, this is what I need from you, everybody's different. What you'll give me on first ticket is different than what you might give me.

Everybody's a different personality, different diction, different tenor different momentum, energy, etc. And I studied each of them and I said, this is what I need. And I don't know if anybody in the business can say this. We got about thirteen different contributors on the show. Every single one of them stepped up, every one of them. I don't have one single complaint. Mad Though Russell let me forget him. I don't have one single complaint Damian Woody, Dominique Foxworth, Bart Scott,

Chris Canty, all of these guys. I don't have one single individual that has let me down. And I'm not talking about totality. I'm talking about every day they come on, every single one of them. Even when JJ Reddick and I got into it a couple of times on the ear, I had to go on the air and tell people stand down. I asked them to do that. Come right at me, you got something to say say it, Just be able to take it. It's all I asked. Kendrick Perkers,

let me not forget my brother. You know, stuff like that. You know, Jay Williams, all of them. I can't say enough about him. I mean, I sit here as a very very grateful individual. And Shannon Listen, I didn't know him that well. I knew him, like he said when he was on the Talk months ago. He was like, I knew him, but I ain't on him. Same here. I know him, but I ain't know him. You know, we said alo to one another. He got on me about eating too many damn crunchberdies. I had that belly

needs to get rid of it, the whole nine. I'll never say a negative word about Skip Baylor's ever. That's my man. He got me started on first take. Who knows where my future would be if Skip Baylor's didn't afford me that opportunity. I don't agree with everything he says or does, but I'll always have love for him because of my gratitude to him. But I saw what had happened to Shannon, and I knew I was there before. When they let me go in two thousand and nine,

I didn't have it. Stephen A. Smith, who was an executive producer for his show on a major network, to watch my back, and I brought him. I told him, you want to come to first take. I got you and all this brother all he wants. Respect him, No disrespect him.

all of them. No short changing. Nobody let me down. And that's why I've been so successful.

learn from. So I think you know you've gave a lot of insight and he was extremely transparent about your own personal story.

So keep dropping it because we all needed all of us, you know, And especially with the way the industry is changing, the way it's evolving, the opportunities that are out there, the opportunities that are going to potentially get missed, et cetera, et cetera, it's incredibly, incredibly important that y'all keep bringing

a voice to all of this kind of stuff. And that's why I addressed it when you brought up the whole Jalen Rose point in terms about knowing the game and all of this other stuff and not just knowing the game, because he definitely knows the game, but it's got to be your willingness to play it, because the industry is going to demand that you have a level of tolerance before it surrenders some of its assets to you.

If you don't prove yourself to be somebody that they can trust to surrender some of those assets to you. They're gonna know you're never gonna get it, and if you don't get it, they're gonna give it to somebody else, and far more often than not, it's gonna be somebody that don't look like us. And so you just got

to keep that in mind. And I think with brothers like yourself really educating us and talking to us about business and about the mind fields that exist out there, I hope that you realize how pivotal that is moving forward, because now more than ever, we gonna need it. I'm sitting here in my position and I'm telling you I needed so imagine how many other people are gonna need it as well. So keep bringing it, keep bringing it.

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