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You created, you know, a space where there wasn't any competition. Then you became your own competition, which is very, very brilliant. So I think it's a lesson FU as entrepreneurs in general, to just think outside the box, look at what somebody's not doing instead of looking at what somebody is doing, and create a space, even if it's niche, like you can make a lot of money in niche spaces. You don't have to be you know where billions and billions of people are already competing.
My graduates from my school being forced bad drop drop drop, bad drop drop.
All right, guys, welcome back.
This is going to be a very interesting educational episode. So this is something that you know, I actually am extremely excited about, extremely excited about because there's so many dog lovers in the world.
I'm not one of them.
Yeah, I think that's what this is.
I'm not.
I don't I don't love dogs, and I do appreciate, do don't want, I don't want.
Peter, don't don't come at me.
We both we both don't have dogs or pets for that matter, but we understand the love that people have for him.
Shout out to mic who's a huge dog lover, and bam.
You know, we've been enthusiast about dogs, and they've been trying to get us to get dogs, and my wife is saying no.
So I'm with it.
On that and do you ever do no, my son, your son as a dog. Yeah.
Yeah, But we're in London, yes, following up from an amazing trip, amazing last night.
That was legendary, what we talked about forever.
Yes, they're gonna remember this.
Yes, yes, we're still in London. So we meet with some UK entrepreneurs while we're here. So ah mad I met Yeah, correctly, Yes, it is somebody that I actually connected with in New York. Ironically enough, I'm not sure how do we originally meet.
So there's Mike Mike G the intro.
Oh, Mike G. That's that's extremely random. Shout out to Mike G. Shout out to Mike G.
You know Mike years.
Mike G's my guy in Miami with the NFL players, and he had yeah, okay, shout out to Mike G.
Yes.
So this was what I was in my financial planning days. And this was years ago, probably like five years ago.
Maybe here's twenty eighteen to the back end.
Okay, like four years ago, and I had an office in Manhattan.
You came to my office and.
We spoke, and he told me that he has a company that makes content for animals, for dogs and cat, and it's like sounds and you know, visual content, and I couldn't really fully understand it.
I can imagine you're sitting there like okay.
Yeah, now, But then he was telling me, like, you know, the company's making millions of dollars. They had a write up in Forbes, and I started looking at the business model behind it, and then I'm like, okay, I understand it. It's just like you know, animals, pets specifically, billion dollar industry. Like as far as the care, like you'd be surprised people get their dogs, manicures, clothing for for dogs and cats, of course.
Veterinarians, that's the whole thing.
Supers, dog camps, dog daycarees, dog workouts, like the dogsitters, dog trainers.
There's a whole.
Industry dog food of course, that's the biggest.
Every dog's gotta eat. So but yeah, for sure.
So.
But if you if you understand the podcast space, you know, one of the most popular podcasts, I forget the name of it, but one of the most popular podcasts. One of the most popular forms of content on YouTube are like rain noises, Like it's just that's the whole thing. Nobody talking to nothing. It's just like rain noises like in the Amazon and like waterfall and stuff like that,
and people like used it to go to sleep. Like you see like rain noise on YouTube, it's like one hundred million views, like a five minute clip of just rain.
Just let it run, and after you let it runs a playlist of them and we just keep going.
Yes.
So yeah, so what created is actually kind of similar to that a little bit.
They call it the petflix.
That's what the media causing, right, So the media petflix. So the reason why it's called petflix is that think of Netflix like content that you have on Netflix, but think of.
That for pets, dogs and cats specifically.
So you have like and we're gonna talk about it, but you have the noises, Like you have some content that's just noises, but you also have content that's actually made for animals.
So it's like visual content that you could play.
On TV and put your dog in front of the TV and the dog watches it. You might not fully understand this don't have an animal or don't have a pet, but if you have a pet, I'm pretty sure that you can understand it. And once you see the numbers, when I read these numbers off, you're definitely gonna understand this. So the company is value that twenty five million dollars and it has fifty million pets around the world and one hundred and fifty one million hours of content consumed
last year. And it's called Relax My Dog, Relax my Cat.
Right, that's right. Yeah, So all right, that's a good intro. First and foremost, thank you for joining us, Thank you for having me appreciate it.
So all right, how did this come about? Because this is a highly unique situation.
What gave you the idea? How di did happen?
So basically, we were originally making music to help people study, and I remember I used to struggle with studying, and then from there I was like, okay, you know this
is it's kind of working. And at the time I had literally one thousand, one thousand, five hundred dollars one thousand pounds at the time to start a business, and I found the only music producer that I could afford was based in El Salvador, and we were basically he said something about his dog and cat getting noise anxiety from living in one of the most violent countries in the world, when you've got guns and police sirens and all that stuff going on, and we were looking into
sound therapy for pets, and we thought, okay, let's give this a try, see what happens. And then slowly it started working on his pets, and then we just put out to the audience and ever since then it's been a huge feedback loop. We get the data, we iterate, we get the data, we iterate, and it's just got big from there.
So what's that process like, because you're making music the human beings to making music for animals, right, Like is there sound rate or beating it?
Like, what's that process?
So, yeah, there's certain beat rates and certain frequencies that dogs can hear and humans can't. And then just generally what we did was just there was a lot of things that we made that didn't work, and it was just purely just experimenting, looking at the quantitative and qualitative data. And then from there we just iterated and iterated and and I would say it was a bit of a slow process, but we want to build something super quality.
In the beginning stages.
How do you know what's working, right, Because I mean I see like Mike's all all the time, and I feel like she just watches whatever he watches.
But how do you like where there were you having dogs, like you were.
Testing them, checking their heart rates and like timing their attention spans. Like what was the process of like understanding like okay, I think this is working.
So first had access to a dog shelter, just anxiety, you know, we didn't have the equipment to check the heart right, but we just had enough to be like, Okay, something is going on here. Now let's spread it out on YouTube of bigger audience and collect that data. And then so in terms of a scientific approach, it was more of a feedback loop approach than we took.
So let me ask you this. You said that, and I've heard this before. Dogs can hear things that humans can't write. Can you elaborate on that? The sound different?
So the best way to describe is basically, certain frequencies the dogs can hear better hearing, They have a wider range of hearing basically, and and then we just work on like what so we embed some frequencies within the music, but we've now made it in a way where it's designed for humans and dogs to listen together. That's something that we've noticed now, Like we asked the audience. Basically, you know who watches Relax My Dog with their dog?
And I think out of ten thousand votes that we got about eighty five percent of them, So yeah, they watch it with a dog. So as a result, we've we've designed it in a way where it's good for humans and dogs.
To watch together. So, okay, how is this able to scale to the point that it is?
Now?
Like you, you said something interested to me. You said that you haven't spent really any money on marketing. No, no, because that would be my first thing was like, you buy an adds our Facebook ads. Great thing to do by Facebook ads, But you didn't buy Facebook ads I'm assuming viable.
You didn't buy YouTube ads?
So how were you able to scale without spending money on ads?
So how were you able to scale?
Was?
I think one of the most fascinating books that I ever read was Delivering Happiness by the found of Zappos, and we took that approach to be super obsessed with our customer base. So for us, it was like we wanted them to be part of the product development, giving us feedback, and then as a result, we just continuously grew from there. So to give you a specific example, like for everyone user that uses our products, on average they tell about seven people when they tells seven people
with like real intensity. So as a result, we were able to scale that way, and in the nine years I've had the business, like, our marketing spent in total has been five thousand dollars, But to be honest, that five thousand dollars was mostly just experimenting and failing, Like we got nothing out of it, so technically they could have been zero.
Do you have a system in place for you said, like referrals? Pretty much, you have a system in place to encourage people to like your referrals or they just do it. But there's no system because.
Yeah, I didn't they Humans. Dog owners are so emotionally attached to their pet that if they find something unique that works, they want to tell the world. And as a result, what we did was we approached micro influences and we have tried to incentivize them to give them something in return, but generally they don't care. If this finds something that works, don't tell everyone.
So micro influences your approaching and they're doing it for free. Yeah, you're just giving them like access to the product.
They just even that they don't even want access to the product like they did because they consume it on YouTube or Spotify, Apple Music. But even if we offer them a subscription sometimes like they're doing that, they're doing it from their heart.
But what's your what's your pitch to the micro influence?
So for us, it's just kind of like some I guess my team takes care of that internally, but they just have a range of pictures. It's like super simple. You find out by their dog, and it's it's more conversational. I'm sure you get so many d ms now on install So we take a conversational approach, so, oh your dog is cute, blah blah blah, you know, and then from there and it's the same thing we do on YouTube as well. Everything is conversational.
In the micro influences, like people like five thousand followers up.
Yeah, but we we've had right now TikTok influences with millions of follow us, But we we don't even approach them changes do it.
People love what looking at that and they tag they tag you yeah, yeah.
So you said that before. In Jolie reversent as well, those hear things that we don't. They have a wider range of hearing. Yeah, did you start from the beginning process of making it auditory and visual or is that something that you expanded to because I know you.
Talked about the color grade.
Yeah, because I mean, obviously we don't see the same way, So like, did that come after?
What was that like?
So that came after? So the audio piece, I think when we start twenty twelve, and the visuals piece came into came in like twenty seventeen.
Five years Yeah.
Yeah, So we wanted to nail down the audio piece first, and then we saw some basic research that other universities have done around the visual side, and then we start to create content. Once again very experimental, but we start getting a data and we're like, okay, this works, this doesn't work. And just to give you an example, like even our music goes into different genres that we create.
So we've created an altered version of reggae, which seems to be the best type of music and the most popular on our platform, compared to like an altered version of classical or oriental or whatever it is. So we're starting to create these little genres where we're starting to see so that on the visual piece, for example, dogs love watching virtual walks on a beach, so we have a lot of that and we look at it. Okay, this one works the best compared to virtual walk in
the city or whatever it is. And then there's some dogs that like watching other dogs going for walks, but some don't, some bark, some go nuts.
As I's saying, I'm thinking to myself, like, I'm walking in with my dog like testing, yeah, and we put something on. I'm gauging the reaction as if they start, if they start screamming, if their tails moving too much, or the treat. Is that how we're gaging, Like, Okay, they like watching walks on the beach, that is that how we gave it. So what you mean like, if there's a video like visually, Yeah, yeah, how do I
know a successful video? Is it because the reaction of the dog barking or showing anxiety.
Yeah.
So as long as your dog is like I guess, pretty chilled and engaged with the screen, then it's fine. But some people want to get the dog excited and they'll be jumping up and down on the screen. So I think just generally, yeah, as long as they're I think the best thing to do is Like what people do is they'll go to work, so they'll leave it
on for like eight hours. When they come back, you can sense your dog if he's pretty chilled or anxious, and then you can gauge, oh, this is working or it's not working.
So let me ask you this. Yeah, I see it on a note. Seventy five percent profit.
Margin gross profit.
Yeah yeah, so that's high. So how are you able to do that? I'm assuming your your course must be very low, low overhead, right yeah yeah, but you have a production staff where you people are producing content, right, so how are you able to keep your court so loaded, to keep so much of the profit.
Because most of my production stuff is all over the world. And the other thing is like when I first started business, like the biggest book that had the impact on me was Tim ferris To for Our work Week, and it's all about building scalability through automation. And for me, it's the same thing. It's like, you know, I can hire producers in England that will be like super expensive, or can hire someone in Indonesia that is literally insanely cheap. Outsource.
From day one, all I've done is outsource my business. My whole team is remote around the world.
And it's good quality work.
You have amazing quality work. But I think the key thing is with outsourcing is that it's learning how to communicate. When you hire these people, there's different communication techniques. And also is to have them, I guess integrated, to feel part of the company even though they're freelancers. And I think just putting systems in place where it's like, you know, here's here's some of the instructions, just follow it. That's it.
I feel like when you put these at playbook in place for these people that you hire, then it just runs itself.
So yeah, we've been we talked about that a futures how people have used platforms like Fiverr. Yeah, different things in that nature. How were you able to find like the good people overseived?
So to be specific about developers, for example, when we build our own subscription platform, and there's no platform that you can just buy off the shelf, so we get to build that onn like Netflix out of a box. And the thing is our watch time a lot higher than Netflix. I think the average watch time is two hours per person. Our average watch time is eight hours. And you put a dog or cat and if you look at that. That's a lot of bandwidth that's being used,
a lot of bandwidths. So that how do we, you know, put our costs down and our margins hired on a subscription service. So a lot of that going back to developers, it's kind of trial and error. I think I've done enough of outsourcing as an entrepreneur for ten years to know engage what works and what doesn't work. And I think with these developers, you just you can put little experiments in place for them to I guess do, and then from there once they kind of give you the
results they want. But I think the key thing actually with developers is the best analogies. If you give them a drawing of a car and it has square wheels on it, they'll make it car with square wheels. They're not gonna tell you, right, So you have to be super super specific. You have to speak to them in zeros and ones literally, and that's how you get the best results from personal experience.
Now you said something very interesting for the watch time. Yeah, so obviously a lot of.
People consuming on YouTube, So I wonder what that looks like from your end, because having a watch time of.
Eight hours, you know, for ad dollars.
It makes a lot of sense to put a lot of ads in that spaces of those videos. So how is that for you guys as far as just revenue from just ads on YouTube?
So in terms of sorry can you rephrase?
Like, so obviously when you have a watch time of over eight hours, even like if you have to watch home over eight minutes, you can generate revenue from that.
Yeah. Yeah, so is YouTube one.
Of those main generating sources of income for the company because the watch time is so long.
Yeah, YouTube is one of the main sources. That's right. But I think YouTube obviously automatically places mid rolls when the user is going to be likely the most engaged, so that just takes care of everything. But you know, yeah, as a result I watched time. It is insane, Like I think it's a one hundred and fifty five million hours in one year.
Wow, who's your competition? Do you have competition in the space? Maybe it's very.
Very small competition. But for us, I think what we did was like with a relaxed my dog, we thought, okay, this is working, and for us, it was like, let's copy and paste our YouTube channel and send traffic to that so we have came your Dog, Relax your Dog, came your Cat, et cetera. Different YouTube channels.
Yeah, how many subscribes you on YouTube?
Combined?
Two million different channels all of them. Yeah, Relax my Dog is a premium one. That's the one that gets the most.
Yeah.
Yeah, but the other ones that we desided to compete against ourselves are growing.
So you decided to compete against yourself, Yeah, Relax my Dog, Relax my Cat, with the other.
One cameo dog your dog, relax your dog, and the cameo cat sons.
What's the difference between cam your Dog and Relax your.
Dog for us, there's right now, they're very similar, very very similar. And I think the reason why we did that was just to protect protect us from an SEO perspective and to send traffic to all of them to create our own competition.
That's actually very that's actually very brilliant because it Relaxed my Dog becomes popularly. You can see somebody making a cam your Dog. Yeah, you can see that happening, right, And it's like, now that could potentially kind of drive people from Relax my Dog, calmye or the same type of content. So I was like, all right, instead of letting somebody else do it, we'll just copy ourselves and now we have calm our doll, Relax my dog, similar
type of content. When you google it, one of them is going to come up exactly and it's gonna be Now, it's gonna be hard for somebody to do. The third, like, what is going to be next?
The best?
The best competition is yourself. Yeah, literally, that's it, and that's what we did.
So you said that absolutely on YouTube, but you have the subscription service. Yeah, so what's the different in variation between YouTube and now subscription service?
So the subscriptions as it is growing for us, it's still quite new because of the technology that we've built. It was like how do we balance the growth versus the cost? So that's still growing. But then you know, we thought from our perspective was like, let's just flood our content in as many platforms as possible and just create as many revenue sources as possible. If that means cannibalizing against ourselves, I'd rather cannibalize against my own myself than someone else do that.
Okay, where's the biggest audience Because we go to a lot of cities, especially the United States. Yeah, I mean it feels like like we've been to San Francisco, LA. These are big dog markets, Miami. What's the biggest audience that you guys?
It's the US, is it?
Yeah?
Fifty two US and then the fastest going ordiance for US is South and Central America and actually the fifth fastest going audience is India. So all over the world.
So what's the verticals here? You have the YouTube channel, you have a subscription model in place, you have and what else do you do? You have anything else?
YouTube? All the music streaming services, so Spotify, upper Music.
Allright, so let's break each one down. Yeah, so let's start with the music. So all right, well, which one did you start?
First?
YouTube?
First?
YouTube first?
Let's do that.
So the YouTube was the first one, yeah, and that was putting out music video format of music and then actually putting out content, right, that's right? Yeah, Okay, that grows. Then from there you go to music, Spotify, Apple, and you're just taking the music that you already have on YouTube,
ye and putting it on Spotify and Apple. Yeah, so using the same content just in different verticals, correct, Like how we do a podcast, Like we'll put the podcast out on YouTube, but then the audio goes on Apple Spotify exactly. Exactly who's making this music?
My music produced a Ricardo. We've been working SGEPT for nine years now. It's in house house. Yeah, all the music, everything is made in house, the music, the video, everything, it's based on our own research.
Okay, you can go to Apple Music and pull out how many songs have you got made?
Like it it's gonna be in a like two thousand hours.
So you just make you just may make a couple of songs a day, like you can. Just so it's just beat stuff.
It's mostly instrumentals, but some of them now are having some of the new stuff we're doing is having more audio in it. So we're experimenting with the audio side.
So you had to go through a process of studying the obviously the bpms and the rhythms of all the music. Yeah, you report the Guardian said that I know why you said reggae. I read the report that the Guardian said reggae and soft rock with the popular exactly. Yeah, so most of the rhythms based on that. Are you guys finding that you know what these rhythms are also work too?
Yeah? So some of it's based on that, and then some of it is either we just alter it a bit more. So if it's reggae, we obviously we make everything in house. Anyway, we'll just continue to experiment with altering the sounds a bit more. But the other thing that works best, that's up and coming is more of an oriental type of music that we've started experimenting with and we're seeing that becoming popular.
Do you notice that certain dogs certain sounds will work better for us?
No? No, So basically every dog is so individual, like it's their personality. I think that's why we create such a range of content, and even on the visual side, like some dogs actually love watching sheep where some don't. Some dogs love watching dogs, some start barking at the screen. So we create such a range of content for you as the owner to be like, all right, you can try see which one works.
What did you Okay, so you two Apple Spotify subscription. So what's talk about the subscription model? When did you put the subscription model in place? And what did the subscription model have that separated from the free content?
So for us, obviously it's ad free, and more importantly, we are now collecting data on your dog and then as a result, we create customized playlists. So like if you've got on YouTube, because we have such a range of content thousands and thousands of hours, the only drawback is use the owner have to experiment to be like which one works my dog, which one doesn't. Whereas for us, we collect that data and we create a curated playlist
which saves you quite quite a bit of time. And as a result, if you know, we look at the watch time metrics, so this playlist might work for a certain period of time, but then eventually, you know, we might have to change that.
So when you say collective data, you're based on the content that you're consuming. Yeah, how long you're consuming the content? Yeah, you can say your dog likes this music more than that music, and now we can curate a playlist like your dog is more in the reggae in South samarnga.
Yeah, and when you do it, you're going to send them the playlist that you've made your music.
Yeah, it's all our content, Okay.
And how much is that?
Just five dollars a month for nine a month, that's it.
That's a dog food, Yeah.
Literally less than dog treats.
So the companies they said, you said the company's value are twenty five million. That's based off of a multiple of the revenue that's coming in right now from all the different verticals.
Yeah. And because we have very very high margins profit margins. Yeah, that gives us really good multiples.
Okay, get interesting, So what's the what's the plan moving forward? Like you would you like to scale it at a higher level, sell the business, partner with somebody, like how do you envision this moving forward?
So for us, I think, yeah, we have been approached a number of times for exit and maybe if it's the right partner, but I think right now, it's just scale the business as much as possible. Like we have fifty million cats and dogs around the world using our content. There's like a billion cats and dogs around the world.
It's like a billion domesticated cats and dollars.
Yeah, so we're like we've got more to go.
What about what about partnerships? Have you have you thought about like partnering with like I don't know, like a dog food company or something that or like one of these like dog shows, Like have you ever done any collaboration And because that seems to me like that there's a lot of collaboration that kind of would make sense.
We have, We have done a lot of collaboration. So on our YouTube channel, we also have vloggers, so it's not just content, but it's content obviously designed for you know, how to take care of a dog, all these tips and tricks, et cetera. So brands will approach us and we'll talk about specific products as well on our YouTube channel. So yeah, for sure, like we want to partner with brands and then kind of grow from there. But from our perspective, we just think that if a partnership doesn't
slow us down, there's no point doing that. Like it's just like we're my previous business that I had, which was venture capital backed, angel backed, et cetera, et cetera. Once you add all these layers, they start slowing you down. So for me, it's just like, if you're going to speed me up, that's cool.
We'll talk about that. Why did it slow because you got to go ask them and talk to them and yeah, actual permission and stuff like that.
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
We haven't been approached from a healthcare standpoint because when I hear words like habri activity, anxiety, these are words that we hear when we talk about humans.
That's a healthcare issue. Right, Have you been approached.
By veterinarians or anybody and that the dog feel that revolves around the health.
No, we we know one of my friends lives in New York. He went to his vet and it's like, oh, they've got to relax my dog on TV. So a lot of vets are using it, a lot of shelters are using it. I think during July fourth in America, the biggest like shelter network was talking about us on Fox News. So yeah, there's a lot of areas that we are going into that's being used. But it's just run like I think that it's mental health for your pet, right,
that's it. So if it's a vet, a groomer, massage, a shelter in some way has a positive impact.
Is there any visions for maybe I know, like a lot of people go to a dog trainer or like you said, like a mental health gym. Yeah, I got a color for human beings. Is there a vision of having something like that for relaxed my dog relis my cat. Whether people can actually come and see the experience of outside of the YouTube, outside actual subscription service to have it amongst a bunch of pets.
Yeah, it's so interesting. Actually, that is something that we're looking at doing in India. There's a bunch of high profile people that have been approached by so we might be looking at doing that because the relationship I guess with pets in South Asia going from street animals and classified as dirty or whatever, it is changing like super quick. So we are going to be doing something very similar.
So being based in the UK started to come in the UK, but you do a lot of those in America as well, right, yep, So can you talk about that because you know a lot of our most of our audiences in American audience, but we have a lot of supporting a lot of listeners in the UK. So
what was what was the challenges if any? What were the you know, hurdles that you may have had to face And how is it to do business cross continent because I don't think a lot of people have a full perspective of doing business on like two different continents, especially in America all the time. It's like if you're an American based business, smaller type of just focus on America.
I know you do both.
So what with some of the learning experiences challenges.
So in all honestly, I think for us, we were like, right, how do we get to the end consumer without having a middle person? And that was it. So doing business in America wherever, Like you know, we're global now, but that's because of how do we reach the end consumer? So for us, you know, I guess partnerships. If we approached like I don't know, pet Smart or whoever, it was like, in all honesty, like I have no time for that. It's a waste of my time because of
the level of bureaucracies. It's like, why do I want to go to a big pet retailler when it can jump over you and that run into your customers. So that was my approach from day one. So doing business in America or wherever, it's just distances in whatever country is an issue. If I can access the end consumer, that's all I care about. I don't care where you're based.
So obviously your music background erners.
What's up?
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He to you in a different set, Now, this is pretty incredible. So how many because I know you outsourced a lot of the word, but how many people are doing the day to data or are you still day to day or is there you build people around you that you directly have content with that are now being outsourced.
How big is the team.
So the team, we're about twenty people around the world and we have a core team in Manchester and they do all kind of like the marketing, et cetera. And then the day to day I'm kind of like in and out a little bit. But yeah, so just yeah, but yeah, it kind of and it's good to step outside of your business. Sometimes you have to like work on your business rather than in your business. And you know, I guess the past few weeks I took a bit of time off just to like look outside and think
where I want to go. But it's fun. It's fun. It doesn't feel like work. It's my life, it's my lifestyle.
So are they any festivals for dogs at the dog Festival?
M hmm.
There's big conventions, like I think in England they have one called Crosss. I think maybe they might have one in like Miami somewhere. But how is that actual festivals.
That might be? That might be that's a good idea, different events, different contests, different Like.
There was one in New York actually I went to, but I think that was just like a one off thing.
And then like even like the music like you're playing, you can actually have like a live musical performance. There's the dog fanst in the UK.
Wow.
So it's like a dog maybe like an open part, like a hide part. They have the DJ playing the music and everybody's just chilled out on the grass. I can see this.
I can see that they're listening to it on YouTube and music.
I mean if dogs can't watch it, if their owners don't watch it, right, they can't.
Turn on the TV.
Yeah, yeah, exactly know what I'm saying.
So now you got a bunch of people.
Nice dog can turn on the TV especially, but you can sit out in the park and enjoy.
Yeah, with the music.
What gets more streams the Spotify, Apple or YouTube still YouTube, YouTube.
Then all the music streamers. It's not just Spotify, Apple, but uh maybe one hundred and twenty music shooting services, all of them combined and aggregated, and then then the subscription.
So more people still watch the YouTube than not.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah, So speaking of like you said, you've been approached by a couple of VC firms, how have those conversations gone, Like, as far as obviously you haven't taken any deals yet, so what made you not take a deal? Like, what were some of the things that was like turn off, Like, how was those conversations with VC firms?
So because I had another VC backed business, you did yeah, okay, I went through that game okay, and with the music side, yeah, okay, with the music side yeah. And I think for me learning through that was just like with vcs, I'm very very like. So the thing is right, there's very few good vcs. It's a very small circle, and the majority of them have not been an entrepreneur us. So my
question is like, have you ever struggled? And a lot of them have come from like you know, KPMG or whatever it is, so they've never seen struggle and then they're there talking to you about entrepreneurship. I have zero respect for that. So for me, it's just some of the vcs that I've approached to just I need to
de risk myself. So yeah, they'll give me growth capital, but because I've had an interesting journey with vcs before, I think de risking myself in terms of like I want to exit push a part of my business, so I know that if you do screw me over, at least I have a soft landing.
Is there an exit number?
Obviously you know you said you got to step out of your business some time to work on it and see where you want to go in the future. Yeah, is there a number that you've had in mind, like if the business can be value that I can see myself starting here and maybe creating something else.
Is it number as you ever?
Yeah?
Yeah, my number was twenty million dollars and now it's twenty five million, So.
Was real there.
So that was it.
But I think for me, like money is money whatever, Like I think right now I'm thinking about the legacy.
So let me ask you this. You said you had a bad experience with VC before. Yeah, can you talk about that? Yeah? For sure, Well why was it? What was the bad experience?
So to kind of give you a background, I think it was an idea around It was like Vivo, but for independent artists, so it's kind of like creating created. It was an app that created created content for discovering new music, and it was doing really well and we
raised VC money, angel money, etcetera. I think and this was the first, I guess, you know, first journey in this entrepreneur I think I think it just became And also me as a CEO learning like what type of CEO that I want to be and more importantly, what type of business I want to build? Because you can build a billion dollar business and you know, you might exit for a billion, but you've you're probably at the age of thirty, but you look fifty because you've been
worked out like so hard. And I think I had to question, like what do I want. Do I want a business to help that is around my lifestyle and my stress levels, or do I want to have a billion in a bank but look like shit for the rest of my life? You know, I mean like, so to answer your question in terms of the VCS, I think all it did was is created too many layers of bureaucracy. So when you take VC money, you're not an entrepreneur. You're an employee to your own company. And
it depends how comfortable you are with that. And I wasn't.
Yeah, it's like Dame Dare said, you're not a boss unless you put up all all the money. Somebody puts up money for you. They're your boss at the very least your partner exactly, and you can't just do whatever you want to do. You got to check some balances that's put in place.
So true, Yeah, that's.
Important people to understand because it's like, you know, it's like you hear this, Okay, I got this money, but nothing in this world is free.
Yeah, and I think that you see all these all this hyper around so and so raised ten million dollars, but really you didn't raise ten million. You've probably got a million, and now you have to hate these insane goals to get the rest of the money. And you've obviously diluted yourself. You'll probably own work, yeah, literally nothing of your company, and that's it, Like you know, you'll continue dilution once you take your first VC money. That's it.
You're on a road to dilution. And you're on the road to being an employee of your own company, working a million hours a week. And if you exit for a billion, you'll be lucky enough to walk away with fifty million.
Yeah, I mean yeah, people didn't think about that. So you started music that that was, you know, obviously an earning experience.
Obviously you've had success with relax my parent, relaxed my relas, my dog likes my cat.
Where do you see yourself going after this? Right?
Because you said legacy, Yeah, I'm sure you want to leave your name or something.
So what are we looking at.
I think it's this business like and to give you an example of legacy, like, now, I've had this business for so long, as I was saying, you know, people have tried so many things for anxiety for their dogs, and sometimes it can be absolutely horrible the anxiety that they have. But they've come across our music and they're like,
oh my god, this actually works. And then they're using it and using it and to the point where their dog dies and they're like, can I use this music for my dog's funeral because this is what had such a huge impact on my dog's life. And that is such an incredible honor to know that it was an integral part of the dog's life to help with their mental health. To be asked to use that music for their funeral now less times that by millions and millions.
That's the legacy that we want is to have a positive impact on the mental health of as many pets as possible around the world.
Are you seeing an impact on the actual owners themselves?
Yeah? Well, obviously the emotional collection. The dog is happy, the owners happy, so yeah, and as a result, you know that it works because they go and tell loads of people, loads of people. As a result, our marketing spend is literally nothing.
I mean that's like us, our marketing experience nothing, like we never really ran ads for the podcast. We won't ads for like different educational courses that we have, but we never run an ad for the podcast. We never marketing. It's just word of mouth, social media, people spreading it, collaboration, working with other people, and now like you know, we get some of their audience, they get some of our audience.
Cross collaboration, and that's that's really been our blueprint. So I think the best form of advertising is word of mouth because you can't really pay for that.
You can't.
The stickiness of word of mouth I think it's eighty five percent. The stickiness of ads is fifteen at most, and that's a really good ad. So word of mouth all the way.
Telefront Yeah yeah, And you know, it's one of these things where nobody's thinking about it, like you know what I mean, It's like, who would have thought that, you know, this would be something that would be a profitable business. But when you think about it, I mean it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah, And people, you know, they love their dogs, so you created, you know, a space where there wasn't any competition. Then you became your
own competition, which is very, very brilliant. So I think it's a lesson just entrepreneurs in general to just think outside the box, look at what somebody's not doing instead of looking at what somebody is doing, and create even if it's niche, Like, you can make a lot of money in niche spaces. You don't have to be you know, we're billions and billions of people are already competing.
You don't have to. And I think there's the thing about entrepreneurship. I think in a sense it's a little bit become toxic in the sense that who builds the biggest business, who builds the billion dollar especially in New York. Like some guy wanted me to do a talk at the startup event and it was picturing. It's like, look, this guy just built an incredible business by himself, and oh, but how much is he raised. They're like, he said,
he's not raised anything, He's built it himself. And they're like, nah, we need people that have raised It's like, you get penalized for.
Being profitable, that's crazy.
But when you get praised for raising loads of money and being in death, it makes no sense.
There's a lot of.
Lessons in it.
Like I said, like a lot of times people will say, I don't know what my purpose is? What should I be doing? And I would tell them it's usually right in front of you. Right, So you had a skill, you applied it. It just so happens that you look, we can help this, and that was just something that's global. Could you have ever dreamed that? I was just kind
of walking in my purpose. So there's always lessons in that, like there's something that you do right now, or it's skill that you have that you probably could have a monetization, or if you just maximize your creativity exactly.
Yeah.
I think the other thing is a lot of people want that perfect idea to take a jump. I need the idea first time when you could take a jump. Doesn't work like that. You start with a side hustle or something and eventually it leads to that perfect idea. I think that's you shouldn't just wait for the perfect time and yeah, start on a side hustle.
Then move.
How is it in the UK for entrepreneurship, like you know in America? Obviously the tax system is really set up to benefit entrepreneurs and investors where you could take a lot of deductions. Yeah, Like you can write off like meals, you can write off plane tickets, you can write off marketing, write off a lot of stuff. We're a regular employee that works a job, they can't do that. Is it the same way here in the UK?
Exactly the same. Yeah, you can write off a lot and you can get a lot of if you're doing research and development, you can get like R and D tax credits. It's about maybe I think I might be wrong, but a big percentage of your tax is given back to you. So there's a lot of a lot of support here for entrepreneurs.
So I mean that makes sense, right, because that's what you're doing most of research and development. You got to keep research. That's so when you keep saying we did the data, we did the data, we did the Databviously it's helping the business, but it's also helping from a tax standpoint.
Yeah, it makes.
But there's a lot of things you can do, like dividends pass up, for example, taking all your profits, putting in some holding company, then putting that into the markets. So there's there's loads of ways of Yeah.
And you don't get tax on it. No, what's it called? Did pass up?
Dividend pass up?
Then you take practice from a business.
I'm putting too, holding company, holding.
Company, Yeah, and then invest that into the stock market. So and that's the way that not you don't pay taxes on it. That's that's interesting.
I think you do pay tax on the trade that you do pay tax. Yeah, it's just minimized, but it's it's a good way. So, you know, talking about doing business in America, Like my biggest fairy is getting sued. It's so easy to get suited in America. But I think if you have a trading company that's bractically broke because all that money's gone to your holding company, it's like, sue me, it's fine. Nothing like look at look at
Johnson and Johnson. They created they put all their liabilities in a company in Texas and if you saw the news and it's like you're suing a broke company.
Yeah.
So it's just it's just creating safety nets.
Learning a game, learning the game. Hire people's on your team, Like obviously you have the freelance freelance people, but how people's on your team in the UK, Like, do you have like a COO. Do you have a team in the UK or we do?
Yeah, there's about six or seven of us in the UK. Yeah, so yeah, they're kind of they'll be with it's a long time, like my longest Rachel. She's she's been in my team for like six years now.
And what does she do.
Just engaged, engages with the fan base that's editing the content and everyone does pretty much the same thing. Okay, And there's no like hierarchy, there's no structures. Everyone's involved and that is.
Just quite a tumble. Yeah.
So I mean, obviously you said this little overhead, has it ever been a year since its inception with the company wasn't profitable?
Almost seems like oh no, ready to be profitable?
Now real profitable within six months?
That was it.
Kell the ball rolling. Yeah, and there was there was one point when I was going to take investment because you know, at the time, I think twenty thirteen twelve, you were reading tech Crunch. It's like, oh, this is how you need to be successful, like take investment, take investment. But then luckily I was like, nah, I'm not doing this. I just had to listen to my gut because the crowd is all about raising money, raise money, raise money.
Where it's like, you know, just build a profitable business might take a look a bit longer, but you know, everything has to be developed around your mental health, your physical health, and your lifestyle. I think even if you before you even think about a business idea, think about a lifestyle you want first, and then how do I build a business around that lifestyle?
You know, it's it's it's one of these things that even for us, like you know, we've been approached like you know, not like from VC firm, but other companies that might you know, kind of through out some ideas of like you know what, I'm like, why would we sell any portion of our company now when a we don't need the money and we're profitable and we're scaling
at our pace. Like so how I look at like unless it's going to be something that is just unbelievable and you can't turn down, Yeah, what's the point, right, because it's like the only in how I look at it, take money for one or two reasons. You take money to scale, which you can actually scale through other ways too, partnerships, working with strategic you know, alliances like this, other ways to scale a brand other than just taking capital. But then also it's like all right, now exit once the
company is already built. Now it's like all right, we're going to offer your money. We're actually gonna purchase your company from your personal portion of your company from you.
Yeah.
Yeah, but yeah, I feel like a lot of people automatically just think that that's the only way to scale, and like you said, by doing that, they can actually be ending up like kind of screwing themselves over.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it depends what type of business it is. I think if it's if profitability is a lot further down the line, then maybe raising might make sense.
It's a lot more overhead too.
Yeah, if you got some like crazy AI tech or whatever it is, then yeah it makes sense. But I think do everything you can to have income coming in. I think raising money is like the absolute last result. That's how I look at it. Like if your if there's no other way to make money, then but there always is, there's always always a way.
Here, let's talk about some geographics before we leave. So you're from Manchester originally from Leeds and we are in London. So actually I was talking to somebody yesterday like you gotta come to Manchester and they're like, it's growing so much is woman So in America, obviously everybody knows London. Yeah they might have heard a man you or man United if but can you talk about the difference between
Manchester and London? And like I said, I heard that Manchester is an actual up and coming city with a lot of development, So can you talk about that a little bit?
Yeah, there's just like obviously with the pandemic, I think that was a big shift where people like, we don't need to be in London, businesses don't need to be here. So as a result, Manchester has grown very quickly. A lot of big companies are moving head like Amazon just opened up a huge office in Manchester. But just the text scene, everything is evolving very quickly. There are some big brands that have come out of there.
And I think.
I guess the US has major cities whereas the UK. You speak to any American, they're like you said, oh, London, Everyone assumes you're from London when you say it from Manchester, how's London. Yeah, I'm not going to correct myself, but Manchester is going to be on the map as a as a big second city. For everything, and just like in the time I've been there, they only had that one major tall building. Now it has like five or six and the text scene, the investment, everything is changing.
She definitely come up.
How was the real estate?
I mean we've been we've been hearing and we've been seeing a lot of the real estate here in the price is it cheaper?
I know you said that people realize that they didn't have to be in London.
Yeah, and it's like an exodus, absolutely a little bit less fast paced, right, And it's the real estate relatively, is it saying or is it a little bit cheaper?
It's a little bit cheaper, but it is becoming, like the property prices arising and it will become like London, on par with London. And I think the best if you'm invest in real estate is the little towns around Manchester. Those are the smartest places.
Like what's the name of use like even like.
Like Bolton, all them like these places Bolton that these places are considered like really bad at the time, but they are like give it another five six years because of the access routes in too into Manchester certification, it's going to change super quick.
So it's like a lower class suburb right now. But you can see the change happen.
It changes happening, yeah, very quickly. Like even the apartments that I bought in the city center of Manchester, Like when I bought them, they were pretty much in the city center. It was a wasteland area. And now it's kind of like changed into I guess, like like Chelsea, New York, like that type of vibe. It's become super hipster. And literally that was in less than five years.
You changed the neighborhood. Man, Sorry, I said you changed the neighborhood.
Literally, yeah, early invested.
I just saw I think the best thing to do was, like if you look on the planning permission website, you can see what planning permissions have been improved, and then you're like, all right, cool, let me get in now. So for example, Manchester City, which is now the biggest is so much bigger than Money United. That football team is owned by the Sheiks. Yeah yeah, so the stadium and that whole area, they're now building a huge arena
next to it. So I bought property next to that because I thought, right five years it's a no brainer. Because you all you do is just look at planning permission and like the city is extending in all areas, let me get let me get in now.
You know, it's so crazy because no matter where you are, it's the same thing. But you're speaking about the Mercedes Benz Stadium in Atlanta. That was something that you know, we were talking to Ti namous rapper in America and he was saying that he was buying property all around that area because he knew once the Mercedes been Stadium was there, the whole area is going to change and everything is going to become more valuable. And that's what happened. And also what you said as far as we just
interviewed somebody a few days ago. Julian Gordon is a military investor in America, and he was talking about looking at the city plans like in America, like you can go to like local council meetings and like the city has like plans for like the next five ten years. Yeah, not necessarily exactly what's going to happen, but that's their plan. So they can say, Okay, like a shopping mall will be coming here in two years, so you kind of
have an idea of what's going to happen. And then it's like you can make an educated decision like Okay, if Tesla's putting a car dealership, if there's a shopping mall, there's a grocery store, obviously the property value is going to go up.
Yeah.
Yeah, this year no brainer, I think. I think. I guess it's the decentralization of cities. Especially after the pandemic. People are, oh, I don't need to be in Manhattan or wherever. So I think now the suburbs. I just I no brainer sense of investments.
Yeah, I mean it makes sense, especially like a country, like you can't think there's like over thirty million people here, so everybody can't live in lone and then there's more people that's coming. Yeah, so it's a need for a second city or even a third city. Right, Yeah, it makes sense. And then even with the United Kingdom, I feel like a lot of a lot of Americans are fully educated on that either, like they think the UK and they think of London, England. Yeah, but it's like Wales, Scotland,
Northern Ireland like this. That's why it's the United Kingdom, right, It's not just like one territory.
It's like for something like that, right, Wills, Scotland.
Yeah four. Yeah, that's a geography tip for you guys. Little education. So so what's what's what's what's your plan? What's your ten year plan? What's on your ten year plan?
This is like the city planning board. It might happen.
What's all your vision what's all your vision board? A plan?
Mm hmmm. I don't think that far ahead, you know, not even that five days, six months, six months, Mass, six months, six months, mags.
One month in Dubai. What we're going to do for the.
Next yeah, but even now, like I don't know what I'm doing next month, So it's.
Something figured out as it comes. The life of a bachelor.
Works.
But you just left why Yeah? How was that? The Bible was good?
I originally went to do just for business, but for me it was just like actually let me step outside and just not doing any business. And yeah, I was networking and connecting with people, made some good friends, but business wise, not not much happened.
You know, you was probably a fourth person because when I came, I know a few people from London connected with a line and I have reached out a few people, like four people. It was like, oh I'm in Dubai. To further notice, I wish I could make it, but I'm in Dubai and I was asking you, like, is that a thing like when every party from the UK is going to Dubai.
Yeah.
The bye is literally like it's like you never left England.
M h.
Yeah, it's very very British.
Because there's so so much people from England over there. Yeah, why is it just because it's close? How far? How far a riot point?
Right?
You look at eight hours.
It's not that not that close, So why so many people from England? Because you can probably get to America and America.
Yeah, it's probably six house to America New York. I think people obviously opportunities. Du Boie is like trying to compete against the world in every aspect from crypto to real estate to tech to everything, and I think just job opportunities, lifestyle. British people love the sun. There was that time. All of that I guess kind of makes sense, but I think it's quite smart what that city did. They just meant Dubai is very like Instagrammable, and as a result,
you know, their cost per acquisition is literally nothing. Because all these influencers are like talking about you.
Know, I never thought about it like that. Instagramable. That's actually a very insightful take on it. They they theoretically could have built the city to get the most bang for his buck ever in history, because they've gotten the most social media free publicity any place ever in the history of the world. And it's like everybody's taking pictures in the forma of not being there, and they don't have to even run ads to try to get people to come to Dubai. You just see it on your Instagram feed.
There's no travel.
Like that pool that went to like Christiano Ronaldo was there. Yeah, obviously he put I assume it probably got paid for that. But I think, you know, even just bringing in celebrities and all this stuff, I think it's a smart move.
Ye.
Yeah.
And then the rest are just like and the city is like very very like instagrammable. Take a picture of anything it look it looked good, yeah, in the desert, yeah exactly. So that was it, And I think it's it's just smart how they've done it.
Instagram moble Yeah, I like that. I like that. Make sure make sure whatever you do as an entrepreneur is instagrammable. The events have to be insteads like our events, their Instagram mobile create a moment that lasts forever, the sort of social media never goes away.
Literally, that's it.
Well, it's been a pleasure, my brother, thank you for joining us. What would you like to tell people as far as how can they follow you on social media website, you know, consuming the content all that information.
Yeah, so go on YouTube, it's relaxed my dog, Relax my car. If you're gonna follow me personally on Instagram, it's Aman seven to seven is my Instagram, and then yeah, the rest check it out. Relax my dog, likes my cat, likes my.
Dog, and relax my cat and calm my dog and calm.
Like Actually, we have experimented with music for guinea pigs, thousand pets that we can come guinea pigs and rabbits. Yeah, so this is on pet tunes.
And people have guinea pigs as pets.
Yeah, loads, yeah, loads, But surprisingly it does work. Like obviously we've experimented with it and we took the same approach, but we're seeing like loads of people using it on their hamsters and guinea pigs and rabbits and oh my god, this is fish. I think we've tried that.
Yeah water, No, I mean you just you know, put it close to the fish tank. People have fish tanks. Yeah, you put it, you put it close to the fish tank, or put it you put the TV fish kaw.
They have.
Parents, exactly parents because parents can actually repeat stuff too.
They can't, Yeah, yeah they can.
That'd be interesting to have like a training course for parents to speak.
But it is interesting. There's so many different areas that ire saying earlier, like people that don't own dogs but live in California where weed is legal, U consume relax my dog.
Oh yeah, talk about that a little bit before we leave. So relax my dog is not. The content is not only consumed by dog lovers. It's consumed by potheads as well, right, no, no marijuana. They get they get high and they start the vibe off the vibes.
It's crazy, like we saw I guess comments coming in where people are oh, because it's color graded, it's virtual, it looks kind of looks kind of trippy when you watch it and they're like, oh, yeah, I don't have a dog, but I love watching this when I'm high. And then first.
Off, it was a joke high off what drug weed? I seem because when you say the colored thing, I'm thinking maybe psychedelics.
Yeah, I don't know.
Stuff like that, but if you see it, the color is that. Not that I would know, but I'm just saying it would seem watching it on TV, it seems like that's the kind of trippy vibes you're in.
I've seen others do that for people, So.
Yeah, but it's crazy. First of it was a joke, but then there's like consistently I love watching it when I'm high.
So that's a whole new market right there. Holy mind, A bit of a thought about marketing to that.
Calm my wife, Calm.
My high, calm my high. Comm my high is a good one. Come high because you don't get paranoid. It's like, you know, yeah, that's that's a good one.
Roller coaster sometimes ain't gonna be tough to come.
If you, if you watch the content, it'll soothe you. Even try give it a try.
But like like I said, obviously it's mostly from America because I think a lot of states is legal now yeah all of them.
Not all of them, twenty or maybe thirty over thirty, Yeah, a lot, a lot, and now they even have some states where psychedelics are llegal, like in Oregon mushroom mushrooms illegal.
I think.
One of them is, like hardcore drugs is legal. I think that was the Oregon like LSD. It is something, right, I don't want to go that far.
What like I think you're referring orgon.
But in Amsterdam drugs are llegal.
Yeah, yeah, that's I think that's the only place in Europe.
Yeah, because out here you can't even smoke. We're not legal. No, none of it is so a little less progressive.
Learning from my friends across the pond, Yeah, exactly, well did you have it?
Did you have it, ladies and gentlemen, Troy housekeeping items.
Yes.
Shout to everybody on ey L University. Shout out to all our earners. Shout out to the entire uking fim. Like I said, we met a lot of people that are earners in We actually met myself. Shout out to ourself who was part of the uy L team and still doing stuff for us, So shout out to him. Shout to everybody that supported the merchant at the event and supported the merchant throughout the world.
Man earr Leisure. There's an institution for financial literacy and everything entrepreneurial world. So thank God for your support. Man, keep rocking on us.
Yes, thank you guys for rocking with us. Shout out to the UK, Shout out to London. We'll see you next week.
Peace my graduates from my school being forced back drop.
Mike Drop, you.
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