The Ear to Asia podcast is made available on the Jakarta Post platform under agreement between the Jakarta Post and the University of Melbourne. Hello, I'm Sami Shah. This is Ear to Asia. A very interesting phenomenon these days is when students receive more than one offer, like one offer from UK, one offer from Australia, they will post that on social media and ask for advice. Which one should I pick? And then all this kind of alumni and those college students from these
two institutions will chip in. Chinese international students can be Australia's assets as well. They do so much in terms of promoting Australian social and cultural events in Chinese social media. And they sustain transnational ties with Australian society and economy, even after graduating from Australia. In this episode, how Chinese international students navigate their experience in the West. Ear to Asia is the podcast from Asia Institute, the Asia research specialists at the University
of Melbourne. Despite all the talk about trade wars and other tensions, China remains the largest source of international students worldwide. with over 1 million students pursuing higher education abroad in pursuit of bachelor's and postgraduate programs as a pathway to global careers and potential migration, or to take up scholarships and research
opportunities. Top destinations include, unsurprisingly, the United States, where students from China account for a quarter of all international students. Australia also ranks high, with over 125 ,000 Chinese nationals, representing 22 % of all international uni students. Needless to say, these large international numbers provide a massive revenue boon for sometimes cash -strapped institutions of higher learning. But what is the experience of Chinese students
here in Australia? Given their large numbers and their origins from a country that many Australians may view with some ambivalence, how are they being received, embraced or excluded? How are the Chinese students themselves finding ways to cope or thrive in the Australian social and academic environment? and what policy measures could best balance universities' commercial motivations with the responsibility to provide meaningful
education and social experiences. To discuss, I am joined by two researchers looking at the overseas student experience in Australian higher education. Dr. Chiu -Ping Pan is a lecturer in Chinese Studies as well as Deputy Director of the Centre for Contemporary Chinese Studies here at Asia Institute. And Dr. Eric Fu is a Senior Research Fellow at the Youth Research Centre, part of the Faculty of Education at the University of Melbourne. Welcome back, Xiaoping, and welcome,
Eric. Thank you, Sami, for having us. Thank you. Eric, let's start with you. Tell us who Chinese international students to Western universities are, I mean, as much as we can risk generalizing about them. The biggest group would be those students who have completed their undergrad study in China and then come to Australia for a master's degree. And I think according to the statistics, this will be the biggest group. And we also have a significant number of students who come to
Australia to pursue their undergrad degree. We also have some students come to Australia to pursue a professional kind of qualifications or degree as well. Qiu Ping, can we generalize as to where they're from in China, what socioeconomic backgrounds, for example, they might occupy? Yeah, I think while some generalizations can be made, but it's also very important to recognize that both commonalities and diversities are very
much present within this group. So that starts probably from talking about the socioeconomic status. The majority of Chinese international students come from middle and upper middle class families. So some research suggests that probably 85 % of the students will be from this background. Most of them will be self -funded, relying on family support. But also, there is also a very important trend that there is a growing minority who receive scholarships to found their study
abroad experiences. And I myself actually belong to the minority group there. And in terms of the geographical origin, most of the students, quite unsurprisingly, would be coming from China's most developed cities around. like 80 % from recent research. And as they indicate, 80 % will be coming from tier one cities like Beijing, Shanghai, or the new tier one cities. So those who come from the lower tier cities, I think will only account for a very small proportion.
We don't really have a very specific statistics about this. And age -wise, while typically speaking, they come to pursue undergraduate and postgraduate degrees from 18 years old and in their 20s, but there is also a growing trend of students in their 30s who want to start their life anew and give themselves another choice. And I want to add to what Eric has just talked about. like who are these Chinese international students at Western universities. I think I would like
to add two more adjectives that I have. One is aspirational and the other is open -minded. So most of the students who want to do this kind of study abroad experience are kind of aspirational, trying to enhance their cultural or social capital and their competitiveness. And they are also... Eric, what are the typical pathways, though, for these students to come to overseas studies? And is that the same in Australia as it might
be in the US or UK, for example? by themselves or through an educational agent to seek opportunity to pursue a master degree overseas. That's the I think the most common kind of pathway. Another important pathway is because of the high competitiveness in the kind of university recruitment exam back in China. So a lot of parents actually just put their children in those international high schools.
And even some of them just directly send them to high schools in Australia just to make sure, you know, they have this opportunity to take the VCE or A -level or whatever kind of international kind of university recruitment tests and then send them to those international institutions for higher education. Do we know if there's any criteria that they might have for choosing which Western nation they would preference? You know, is making it a US versus Australia or Australia
versus the United Kingdom? What goes into that decision making process? There's normally a kind of traditional hierarchy in terms of these destinations. Despite what is going on in the US, I think traditionally US is probably the top. one kind of destinations for international students to study. And the second tier probably would be the UK and also other higher educational institutions in Europe. And then Australia is sort of, you know, in the kind of third position in terms of their choices.
I think in terms of their considerations in choosing these institutions, I think this international ranking really plays a big role. Although there are a lot of debates about to what extent this kind of ranking can actually reflect the quality of education in certain institutions. Given that this international ranking is so successfully kind of promoted in the international high education market, I think that will be the key kind of
criteria for them to consider. accurate, both in terms of the countries that they're applying to, but also in terms of the universities. So for example, if you know, to be more specific, a prestigious university in Australia would still rank lower in their consideration than a, you know, mid tier or third tier university in the US. When it comes to the decision making, it
has a more complicated kind of feature. So Several different factors will come into play, not necessarily all relying or determined by where the university is located at. As Eric has just mentioned, the international global ranking of the universities would matter. That's one of the most important things that students will look into. So that's mostly related to students' aspirations to develop their global and... their competitiveness in the job market, so forming their culture capital
-wise. There are other several factors that will be very important as well. Say, for example, not all the parents that I have talked to will favor America because America is not always considered as safe and welcoming, particularly given Trump's governance right now. So some of them would choose Australia or Canada because of what they perceive as more welcoming. and safer environment. Australia also has an advantage because of its proximity
and also time zone alignment with China. Cost of living will be a factor that comes into play as well. And the other thing is actually the migration possibilities is also something that... students will take into consideration as well. Although the majority of Chinese international students choose to go back to China, but when they come to make the decisions, they will think about what kind of opportunities that their international
education will expose themselves to. So I suppose that then forces us to ask the expectations of Chinese international students, both socially and academically, in fact, pre -departure, you know, before that moment they get on the plane, what do they hope for or expect? And again, I understand I'm asking for a generalization here, but Xiaoping, do we have any insight into that?
This also is a very important question if we are going to actually develop a more nuanced understanding of this group, because their expectations and their aspirations also vary greatly. So in terms of their personal and academic aspirations, some of them want to actually further develop their job market competitiveness. So we can see a lot of Chinese undergraduates who... are who haven't really been able to enter into the top tier Chinese universities after the college entrance
examination. They want to go and study overseas and get a get themselves into like a higher ranking international university. So after graduation, they can go back to China in Chinese job market. They got a more impressive CV suggesting their educational background. And in the meantime, we also need to take into consideration that Chinese government, local government, they are paying more attention to recruiting overseas
trained international talents. So in some big cities, like in Beijing and Shanghai, they will actually provide policy incentives, like to invite students who graduated from top universities back to work there. So that also constitutes as an incentive. But there are also students who just merely want to expose themselves to different worlds. They want to get themselves to know the broader world and to provide themselves
with an alternative way of life. You did raise a very interesting point there that some of the Chinese universities they might not be able to get into because of how prestigious they are and how difficult they are for admission, but they would then get into a university in the West. And yet somehow that foreign degree is
seen as more valuable back in China. Does that mean that some of the students are now using this as a shortcut to get a prestigious job that they would not be able to get if they just stayed in China? I think this is a quite complicated issue. So first of all, we all understand that the college entrance examination in China is super competitive, and it shouldn't be taken for granted that the higher the score is, the more talented a student is, because there are
very significant regional differences. If you are, say, born in Beijing, there is a much higher chance for you to enter into Peking University than some other students. less advantageous social
economic backgrounds in a remote area. So otherwise, I think international education, people do see value in that because that indicates that your ability to get in contact with people from different cultural backgrounds, you have this kind of international capital that... will showcase that you can tap into opportunities that's available, that's afforded by globalization. That's the reason why those big cities are providing incentives to recruit these overseas trained talents back to China.
Eric, integrating into a foreign society, grappling with a foreign language, all while studying for a higher degree, is a challenging prospect for anyone. For Chinese university students here in Australia, what does the research say about how successful or otherwise that integration
has been? I would say in general, it's not as they would expect, you know, in terms of... integration academically and socially uh i i i draw on the kind of social media comments that given by one of the participants from my research he says he originally planned to study his master degree and then do a bit of part -time job and then maybe at towards the end of his study he can do some internship as well but the the reality is when they come here so he finds 100 % of his
energy and effort was invested into finishing all the assignments on time. So that's one thing. The academic pressure that they are facing is really immense. Can I drill down into that then? Is the linguistic challenge larger for them, the academic challenge in terms of Australian academic norms and expectations, or the social -cultural challenge? What aspect is the most time -consuming? I think for them, their top
priority is to get the qualification. So in that sense, adjusting to the new kind of academic environment and also... try to meet all the requirements a qualification requires. That's the, you know, I think the main kind of direction for their, you know, energy and investment into it. Q. How different are Australian academic norms and expectations from Chinese academic norms and expectations? Thank you for raising this question because I
was about to add something about this. We wouldn't be able to understand Chinese international students well if we don't bring in the Chinese academic higher education norms into our conversation. So one thing I would like to point out is actually because I used to teach in China for three years. I would probably say that. The academic culture and expectations is quite different in the Chinese and Australian context. In the Chinese context, students are more used to the form of lecturing.
So have a lecturer there delivering the course content from the very beginning to the very end. But increasingly, when Chinese universities have got more overseas -trained academics working there, it's also changing. I'm not trying to overgeneralize here. But generally speaking, students have this kind of tendency to believe that they should probably not proactively speak up unless they've got something really important
and worth sharing. And that's very different here because students are encouraged to share their ideas and do not care so much about how they would be evaluated, either by their peers or teachers, etc. So that's a very big difference. Class participation, for example, is seen as a hurdle requirement for many subjects. You know, you're expected to participate in class. Indeed, indeed. And sometimes like when they are not really well. prepared for that, it can be a quite
daunting experience for them to start with. And it's a learning process and they need to go through sometimes a challenging learning curve to realize that. One thing that I did in my class, which turned out to be quite helpful, is actually I share with them the university policy and guidelines about the importance of a safe environment for
students to speak up. And also in the original, like the first few classes, when they are discussing just among themselves, sometimes I don't really mind if they are talking to their peers, they are using Chinese, but they do when they are sharing with the classroom, they share their findings in English. I feel that is very helpful to make them to feel safer and to share their ideas and more comfortable. Eric, how... Challenging
has that linguistic aspect then been. Xu Yipeng is talking about the English presentation in class. There have been articles about the difficulties many Chinese students have in expressing themselves in English with a level of fluency. The prevalence of translation apps now might be delaying that transition to a higher English standard. Is this something that the students are aware of as a problem? And are they feeling supported in it? You're right. This is a major barrier for their
classroom engagement. So oftentimes when there is a discussion point raised in the tutorial group, I think Chinese students are a bit reluctant to really participate, not simply because they don't have a point to share or add on to the discussion. It's mainly, you know, their... concerned about language ability and whether they can make their point very clearly in English. So that's a major barrier for a lot of them. Can I add
one more thing here? I think this relates to the question you raised earlier, Sammy, about the difference of the academic culture in classrooms. So when Chinese students... were learning English, their learning process is very much dominated by the pattern of teachers correcting them or
themselves correcting themselves. So grammatical mistakes and also like other mistakes were accents are huge in terms of their when they were thinking about what they are saying so i can i relate to that because i used to be an international student so when i was about to speak up my heart would be pounding and i will be like thinking to myself While I'm talking, so first of all, I need to summon my courage to speak up. And when I finally started to speak, there are two
people in my mind. One is in charge of speaking and the other small person there would be listening to what is being said and then criticize myself for it. Every single mistake I met in pronunciation and in terms of grammar, etc. So that is also some kind of invisible hurdles and battles that Chinese international students are dealing with. That's very common. How well are Chinese students supported by the institutions here then in terms
of these challenges they face? Xiupeng? I think that Australian universities are increasingly aware of the need of support amongst international students in general. So say, for example, at the University of Melbourne, I can see a wide range of support being created and being provided, such as academic skill hubs, which I often refer
students to. So they will provide support with... presentation skills, or sometimes if you bring a piece of writing to them, they will help you to identify problems and they can help you with resume writing. And nowadays, there are also mental health service that will provide low cost and language accessible counseling as well. Career services will be covered and also sometimes legal
and visa support will also be available. But aside from the progress that has been made, there are also definitely gaps that remains to be filled. So say, for example, currently I'm working with my students to develop a guideline for anti -scamming support information sheet for Chinese international students. So I was hoping that this kind of co -designed workshops will also help to fill in those small pieces of gaps. in terms of supporting and helping Chinese international students. Eric,
it's not just the students. What about the lecturers, the teachers, the tutors, the course design at the university? How much does it take into account the needs of the international students? I would say I will agree with Xu Ping. A lot of improvements have been made in the past few years, you know, as the research evidence starting to, you know, picking up. I would say still, the university
still have a lot of things to do. I've noticed there are some workshops, you know, to help build our uni staff cultural competency in terms of dealing with students from different cultural
backgrounds. But I would say maybe these initiatives could benefit from, you know, including some of the students and try to, you know, hear from them and also co -designing these kind of workshops or capacity capacity building programs you know wisdom that would be i think a better way to go you're listening to air to asia from asia institute at the university of melbourne And just a reminder to listeners about Asia Institute's online publication on Asia and its societies,
politics and cultures. It's called the Melbourne Asia Review. It's free to read and it's open access at melbourneasiareview .edu .au. You'll find articles by some of our regular Air to Asia guests and by many others. Plus you can catch recent episodes of Air to Asia at the Melbourne Asia Review website, which again you can find at melbourneasiareview .edu .au. I'm Sami Shah and I'm joined by Dr. Eric Fu and Dr. Chiaoping
Pan. We're talking about the experience and coping strategies of the many Chinese international students here in Australia. How are international Chinese students here viewed by the local uni staff and students? Chiaoping? This kind of perceptions can vary greatly. Say, for example, on the one hand, sometimes they can be framed as an issue or sometimes as a risk, like to academic standards in Australia, etc. So please allow me to elaborate
this a little bit. So sometimes Chinese international students are being framed as problems because they would be considered as like deficient in terms of language skills their level of engagement and they have the stereotypes of coming from like rich families etc etc but in the meantime what has been actually buried or overshadowed by this generalization are what we have talked about like the minority groups within this um big cohort as well and in terms of like um the
on the other side there are also positive views and institutional efforts as well so in general i think the higher education sector in australia is quite welcoming like being very authentic about like the potentials that chinese international students can bring to actually financially support underfunded university sector and bring along more multicultural exposures like for domestic and other international students here as well.
So that kind of underpins universities' efforts to foster inclusion through policy and programming as well. Eric, what can you tell us about the well -being and psychological challenges for these students? What are some common reported issues? I think the main challenge for them is because they are facing quite a big difficulty in making friends and, you know, establish that kind of social network in the host society. So in that sense, that is a big kind of well -being
concern for this group. I've talked to students who really struggle, especially during the COVID period. in terms of having a social life and having a few friends, you know, to talk to when they feel really stressed. So that is really have a big impact on their general well -being. Jiuping, have they been able to find ways to thrive and engage positively? I definitely do
believe so. What I have been observing and what I would like to do further research about is actually the creative ways for students to self -organize and to address problems they commonly face and tackle challenges they commonly face and to thrive more positively. So actually, if you walk along the Swanstone Street and to Federation Square, from time to time you can see more Chinese international students' presence there, not merely as consumers for the bubble tea shops. but also
as they are. There are music players, there are dancers, and there are even Chinese rappers who are Chinese international students. So they are finding creative ways to showcase their cultural identity, their cultural background, etc. And also there are, say for example, in the case of University of Melbourne, there are increasingly more student groups formed by Chinese international students. Some are focusing on tackling problems
here in Australia. Some are also organizing about, say, being volunteer teachers in remote areas in China. Some are focusing on academic integration and also career -wise progression, etc. So I think that is a really vibrant area. You can see different efforts being put into advancing their own welfare. One of the aspects of being an international student that is often advertised, promoted and talked about is the freedom that you have as a student traveling away from your
home. However, how does the potential for political pressure or risk of surveillance from Chinese authorities color that experience of mainland Chinese students here? How much freedom do they actually have? Eric? That's a sort of thorny topic to really talk about. So people would think, okay, when they come overseas, they're exposed to this kind of liberal society. They have access to a whole lot of different information that
they couldn't access before. But I would say, from my research at least, students are more
likely to become more kind of critical. citizen with a kind of global view with them so they grow up in a kind of authoritarian kind of society and then they also used to you know different kind of media context and then they come out and with a kind of assumption that we these stepping into a free media world but then they will soon figure out all the lots of the media reports you know in the in the english media mainstream media are still more or less you know biased
as well. So to that degree, and then they will probably try to find the middle way, you know, to really critically engage both sides of the media sphere and probably become more critical in terms of having their own views. Jerry Peng, are the students that you engage with, are they fearful of surveillance? Are they fearful of political pressure? Is it something that is even
entering their concern set? Actually, I think in my class, one thing that has been really helpful to encourage people to speak up is I would emphasize that the university policy of creating a safe environment and for free speech. So I always emphasize that. And when you have created a safe classroom environment, we'll be surprised to see how actually different ideas will be brought
about to enrich the classroom. But in the meantime, I kind of feel like the discussions about censorship in China is also actually undermining the credibility of what Chinese students are saying as well, because it creates this kind of environment in which when Chinese international students are critical about Chinese government, they will be considered as they have integrated. and they have mastered the skill of critical thinking,
and they are more like us now. And when they are sharing the genuine kind of recognition or the sense of pride in China's progress and development, sometimes that can be actually suspected, like that might be a result of being brainwashed, or maybe just being politically naive unless proven otherwise. So I kind of think it's concerning.
thing to always frame Chinese students primarily as censored subjects because that actually fundamentally positions themselves as different from Western students, not just culturally, but also ideologically and intellectually. The students don't just exist in Western countries. Their families don't just exist back in China, but all of them also exist in online and digital spaces. So how do the online or digital lives of Chinese international students play into their experience as students in the
West then? Eric? As I just said, you know, social media, they have both sides, English social media and also Chinese digital media as well. they have these tools and also they've been navigating the Chinese internet, you know, maybe since they, you know, go to high school, you know, and they have a very kind of established kind of skill set to really navigate their media sphere to be engaged in different sorts of social, political and cultural kind of participation and activities.
I think Chinese social media still play a key role. for them to navigate their life in the West. I think a typical example I could give is they start from their decision to choose the destination of their study. They will browse social media and they will see a lot of social media posts made by students who are already studying overseas. They will get access to the firsthand experience of them studying at a certain... institution and a certain destination. So that
is an important reference. And a very interesting phenomenon these days is when students received more than one offer to study overseas, like one offer from UK, one offer from a university in Australia, they will post that on social media and asking for advice, you know, which one should I pay? And then, you know, All these kind of alumni and also current students from these two institutions will chip in and share their experiences. And then that really shapes their decision in
terms of study destinations. And also when they arrive in Australia, again, social media plays a huge role for them to really get necessary information to navigate their life. And also they join different WeChat groups, you know, to get information about how to choose a subject. And, you know, the workload of each subject that entails, you know, all these things and also get suggestions and advices from previous students, you know, how to navigate their academic life
as well. It's no secret that Australian and other Western institutions recruit large numbers of overseas students for the revenue. that they bring in. So Eric, how should universities have balanced their commercial motivations with the responsibility to provide meaningful educational and social experiences? At the moment, I think the Thai education institutions are not really fulfilling that kind of promise to really provide a very meaningful and valuable educational experience
for these students. I think one thing... that is really notable is a lot of the students complain on social media says, okay, I thought I was studying in a foreign university. And then when I go to class, you know, maybe 70, 80 % of the students are actually from my home country, you know, and this kind of, you know, and also they oftentimes learn, you know, course materials that is really hopefully not related to their previous kind
of life experience. So I taught a subject in the Faculty of Arts, you know, it's mainly about media and society, the relationship between media and society. And a lot of those course materials are based on the media content in the Western society, you know, TV drama, music, and film, all these things. I would assume a lot of the Chinese students would have very limited kind
of knowledge about. So it's become very difficult for them to really relate their previous life experience with the content they're really studying. Xiaobing, I saw you nodding there. What do you think about that challenge for universities to balance commercial motivations with their responsibilities? I think we have to actually discuss this problem. in a more historically informed way. I would like to draw upon Professor Greg McCarthy and Professor Xianling Song's research on Australian
higher education. So they have actually pointed out several concerning trends that has been underpinning the development of Australian higher education. One problem is, of course, that what we have mentioned about massification, like the large inflows of international students. might raise an issue about learning and teaching quality. And the second is the reliance on international students' revenue, which is something that you
have talked about. Associated with that is actually the fact that the government's support for the higher education sector is far from enough from supporting the functioning and operation of the higher education sector. And the third is demoralization and insecurity of academic labor, what they call as proletarianization of the academic labor.
And also there is the demise of the principles of education, securitization of research collaboration, etc. The point that I would like to make here is actually when we talk about the dilemma faced with commercialization and quality, we need to think about what alternative sources and pathways are there for the universities to achieve, to ensure high quality education can be provided. So I think that in today's political discussion, we can see a lot of debates about international
student cap. The higher education, international education, I think has... actually being blamed for a lot of social problems that's actually beyond its capability to solve and also which are actually not originated from the sector itself. So I would consider that when we talk about the problems, we need concerted efforts, not merely from the higher education sector, but also the
government, the policymakers. And say, for example, if we are... if we are talking about the housing crisis, we need to have researchers input as well, like to what extent are the problems being caused by international students? And when it comes to the teaching quality, for example, to what extent is because of the explosion of international students? And to what extent it's because of the neoliberal trends and love like the higher education that has been going on for decades?
And to what extent it might has to do with on the fact that academic jobs are no longer that secure. A lot of university teachers are themselves facing challenges, the precarious working environment, et cetera, et cetera. So there are no simple answers to that, but I think I've got more questions
than answers here. Sorry, Sami. Well, that does actually lead rather perfectly into my final question, which I was going to come to you first, Shupeng, is what policy changes would you recommend to foster more genuine inclusion and success for Chinese students in Australian higher education? Is there any specific things that you can see as solutions that already could be put in place
right now? I think in terms of that, I would like to bring two initiatives that National Foundation for Australia -China Relations has been doing. One is they have got a new scholarship plan for engaging Chinese international students to learn more about Australian society. And that's a more recent initiative. And there is also an old one, which we have been actually... honored to get the funding to support. So that initiative is about holding the My Study and Life in Australia
short video contest. So I think underpinning these two initiatives are very strong suggestions made on the part of the government saying that Chinese international students, they are welcomed. They are welcome to learn more about Australia. They are welcomed to articulate and share their experiences. thing we can do at this moment is actually to make this kind of gesture more explicit.
This is not merely because that America is doing a terrible job at this time, indicating that they are not welcomed, they are politicized, etc, etc. But also because that Chinese international students can be Australia's assets as well. They do so much in terms of promoting Australian way of life, promoting Australian social and cultural events in Chinese social media. And they sustain transnational ties with Australian society and economy, even after graduating from Australia.
maybe beyond their graduation, all those should be framed in a more positive light to shape our understanding. And probably it will be a good starting point if we can jump out of the stereotypes for the students being censored on subjects, being brainwashed, and even become source or means for foreign political interference, that kind of thing. Eric, same question for you then. What policy changes or broader societal measures would you recommend to foster more inclusion
and success for Chinese students? I would say the first key would be participation. So I think Chinese students need to be acknowledged. You know, they put great effort, you know, to come overseas to get this education. So their presence on our campus, in our society should be. sufficiently acknowledged. They should be acknowledged as part of our broader cultural society at least.
And then also in terms of initiatives or policies that can really help in them, I think it could be helpful to really include them in this process of policymaking or any kind of program designing. you know, to really listen to them and really figure out what they really want and need. And another point I want to make probably to the broader society is we need to take a more broader view about this diversity and inclusion kind
of initiative in our society. We talk a lot about this initiative, but oftentimes we take this in a very kind of narrow -minded way. So, you know... We tend to focus either on one -dimensional ways of framing this term, diversity and inclusion. It could be implemented out, understood in a whole lot of different dimensions, different ways. In that case, I would say, drawn on the story told by a student, I said, I asked him, is there a moment that you really feel that you
belong to Melbourne? He told me, he says, you know, when the people here don't treat me as an outsider, you know, one day he walked in the street and someone just come to him and ask for directions. And that moment he feels, you know, he belongs to that place. And also maybe some random person just sitting next to him on the bench in the park and started a conversation, a genuine conversation, you know, rather than
just treating them as the other. someone that is fundamentally different from them, I think that will probably be a good way to go. Our guests have been Dr. Chio Ping Pan of Asia Institute and Dr. Eric Fu of the Youth Research Centre of the Faculty of Education, both from the University of Melbourne. Thank you both. Thank you, Sami. Thank you. Be sure to keep up with every episode of Air to Asia by following us on the Apple Podcasts app, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your
podcasts. If you like the show, please rate and review it. Every positive review helps new listeners find the show. And please help us by spreading the word on your socials. This episode was recorded on the 30th of April 2025. Producers were Eric Van Bemmel and Kelvin Param of Profactual .com. Ear to Asia is licensed under Creative Commons, copyright 2025, the University of Melbourne. I'm Sami Shah. Thanks for your company.