Whose eyes watch from the darkness? You are out of line, Acolyte. You want us to discern truth? How is that possible when none of it exists here? Welcome to the official Dune Prophecy podcast. I'm Greta Johnson. And I'm Amadella Ekber. Today, we're talking all about the fifth episode of Dune Prophecy. Yes. And to break it down with us, we are joined once again by showrunner, writer, and executive producer, Alison Schoenberg.
and executive producer and writer Jordan Goldberg. Then we talk with the mother-son pair that are shaking things up in the Imperial Palace. Josh Houston, who plays Constantine, and Tabu, who plays Sister Francesca. And finally, we'll get a glimpse into the pulse-pounding music of Dune Prophecy with composer Volker Fertelman. All right. Spoilers for the first five episodes of Coming Fast and Furious. So go watch those and come back to us. Let us rid the Imperium of these witches forever.
Okay, let's do a quick recap of this fifth episode, which is titled In Blood Truth. Very interesting. So, in the wake of Desmond's attack on the High Council, the emperor gives him a promotion. His title is now Bashar, and he commands a new elite regiment and is tasked with rooting out traitors.
And much to the surprise of Princess Inez, this includes arresting Kieran Atreides as a member of the rebellion. But Valia throws a wrench in Desmond's plans by calling on Sister Francesca to bring the imperial family back into the sisterhood's good graces. And there's a bit of a twist. Sister Francesca is Constantine's mom and Javiko's former lover. Yes. Francesca's introduction also solidifies the budding alliance between Natalia and Desmond, and they share a passionate kiss.
Meanwhile, back on Wallach 9, Tula recruits Jen to help with the newly awoken Lila. And Lila Ezrakella uncovers the truth of the sister's nightmares. It is an airborne genetic virus. that feeds on their fear. Pretty big reveal. Uh-huh. And at the end of the episode, Tula uses some DNA valia got of Desmond to track his blood through the anti-rule genetic index. And it turns out... He has both Harkonnen and Atreides' blood. Oh no. Oh my god. Okay, so what did you think of this episode? Well...
I will say something about the series, which is making me both upset and kind of a growing moment for me, which is that I think I might like horror. And I have said to myself that I don't like horror. There is a jump scare in this episode. Sister Lila is literally...
just losing it in that room with her ancestors coursing through her. You know, they open the thing and she's literally just like screams of the thing and wow, what a performance. Oh my God. And scaring me and for good, good, good effect. And I'm like, maybe I actually like horror. A good scare. For a good reason. I'm into it. So. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it.
makes sense within the world of this story, too, because so much of what we're talking about is fear, right? Totally. Good point. Yeah. I have to face my fear. Horror movies are my mind killer, for sure. I think something that I found myself thinking about a lot with this episode is the idea of the conflict between the desires and needs of the sisterhood and some of these individuals who are in the sisterhood, right? I mean, we see it with Francesca.
And her very complicated role in the Imperium at this moment in time, we see it with Michaela. She gets very frustrated with what she is asked to do in terms of the rebellion. And we see it with Velia herself, I think. comes to all of these plots that she has going and the question of, you know, how much is this really still about maintaining her own power versus actually helping everyone, I think is also a really interesting question. Another thing I'm super curious about is...
this airborne virus. We've learned more about it in this episode. It feeds on fear, but we still don't really know how Desmond is involved. Yeah. I mean, I think there's been a lot of speculation. What's going on with Desmond? What is he doing? It doesn't seem like a very highly scientific...
Guy? Desmond? I'm not gonna lie. Doesn't seem like somebody who would be engineering a virus. So I'm really curious how, if that's true, and if he was a part of that, and, like, how it happened. Yeah, yeah. Also, he kissed the empress, which... I really didn't think he, you know, it didn't really seem like somebody who would have that kind of desire. So that was kind of interesting to me. Once the emperor kissed Francesca, I was like, everybody's going to make out with everybody.
Yeah, you can't have an imperial court without everyone sleeping with each other. Come on. That's true. You're right. What was I thinking? What was I thinking? And now it's time for us to go beyond the veil and unpack this episode with some very special guests. We have showrunner, writer, and executive producer, Alison Shapker, and executive producer and writer, Jordan Goldberg. Let's get into it.
Allison, Jordan, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. Thanks. We learn about a lot of surprising lineage in this episode, including that Constantine's mother is a sister. We finally meet Sister Francesca. Why at this point in the show? I mean, we are in episode five out of six. You know, that is an unconventional choice. We were totally aware of that. But Constantine's mom has been absent for good.
And that was her job, was to, you know, come as a young person, hook up with young prince in line to the throne, Havako, and sort of keep him occupied in a way. that she could step aside at exactly the right time when Natalia was going to come in as the sort of chosen empress to be. And she did it. And she's been a sort of absentee mom, and it came at a cost to her. And it felt like to bring her into the...
Penultimate would, you know, eventize it, would round out Constantine's character, would make you understand really the cost of the plan for her. And I think this is our chance to check in with Francesca and see what the time... has done to her over the years in terms of her feelings. And we'll continue to explore that in six as well. So that's why we did it. And we understood it was a bit unconventional in terms of structure when you're dealing with such a short.
season to introduce a new character. And I think that's also why we went out and we really did, we loved Taboo and wanted somebody who could come in and kind of own the frame and... you know, be interesting enough that in Hour 5, you would be intrigued enough to accept a new character into the mix. And we were just very excited about working with her.
As a Thabu fan and a Dune fan, when I saw that casting, I was literally sold from that casting. I was like, she is perfect to be a sisterhood fan. Well, I mean, just from my personal experience, I guess I didn't... understand the gravity of who she was until meeting her in person i mean she is sort of like uh
you know, very kind of glamorous kind of, you know, star kind of quality. And then, you know, I'd be around her and people who knew her just like couldn't speak around her. That's kind of like, you know, the kind of energy.
impact that she had so it was quite it was quite cool i think the really interesting thing that taboo is doing is that you know the way she interacts with uh valia and those scenes together uh particularly in five i think are actually quite interesting because it's like it's like she's hip to what's going on and how volia is sort of manipulating these scenes but she's also
She wants something for her too. It's like, and she wants to elevate her son. I think that's a, that's pretty, it's pretty fun to watch. Yeah, totally. Should we listen to one of those scenes? Sure. We must act. I'm going to eliminate Desmond Hart. That's already in progress. What I need you to do when that happens is to guide Carino back to us. And convince him to allow Inez to study on Warlock Nine. And Constantine? He was just a ruse?
Francesca showing up is also very interesting because it creates, it like adds dimensionality to a lot of other different character dynamics that we've already gotten to know over the course of this season. I think especially about the family. I mean, Javiko, Natalia. and Constantine, all of a sudden we've learned so much more about all of them just because all of a sudden this lady's at court. That's very true. You realize Francesca is like a grenade.
That's being rolled into this world. And it has emotional shrapnel that goes off and hits everyone. So literally the first two shots of her are coming, like rolling down a ramp and sliding across from one side to the frame to the other. And so she is an emotional time bomb. Now, the interesting thing about Francesca is...
She doesn't quite understand that mission until she discovers, you know, what happened to Kasha and that Mother Superior is actually in town, which is a surprise to her. But in that scene you just played, I think it's starting to kind of, you know, she's starting to grasp. But Valia is using her to create upheaval to her advantage. So yeah, was it Valia who sent her there?
Yes, definitely it was Vali who sent her there, but sort of under false pretenses, like by faking a message that her son needed her. So she would come in and... people, you know, would let Francesca find her, you know, from which is what happens. You know, let's talk about, I guess, each of their roles in this. I think I have a lot of sympathy for Francesca because she has the role that is like...
kind of the most emotionally complex, which is she had to birth in behalf of the plan. I mean, I think you're right. I mean, it does, like everything in the sisterhood, it's doing multiple things. And for Francesca, she's doing something a little dicier called imprinting, which I guess this is sense that she, and this is another thing the Sisters Hood is able to do, is to kind of biochemically manipulate. people in their encounters with them that it becomes an...
let's just say a very memorable, you know, impression is made on another human being. Genetic seduction is what you mean. Yeah, yeah. So she's got the emperor kind of, you know, enthralled, kind of on a... cellular level like that's epically amazing okay well let's um get into desmond's storyline then because a lot happens on that side of things too at the beginning of this episode we are seeing that the emperor has
doubled down on his alliance with Desmond Hart. Let's take a listen. As far back as humanity's time on old earth. Those whose actions seek to destroy the social order have always warranted a swift response. The rebel plot to attack the Landsraad was a grave threat to us all. If it were not for the actions of one... good and loyal subject, today's ceremony would have been a funeral. Now, more than ever, we need to defend our values with ferocity and pride.
That is why I have assembled a new elite regiment. And I charge you, Desmond Hart, as my new Bashar. Jordan, I would love to ask you, I mean, this is obviously a new look for Javi Co. What, I mean, was it really just the land's rat and watching, like, the devastation that Desmond could do and then just being like, okay, fuck it, let's go all in on this?
I think so. I think most rulers that turn tyrant probably don't do it just by themselves. There's someone behind them or in the side of them or in the shadows that are pushing them forward. And part of that push... is given confidence, strength. What happened in four was the ultimate demonstration of that. He now has a weapon at his side, and I think he feels like he can now sort of...
You know, really kind of solidify his strength and make sure everyone knows who's really boss. I hadn't thought of it as confidence, but you're right. That's exactly what it is, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I think so. I mean, that's what he's been missing up until this moment.
And ironically, I think the thing with Francesca is that I think she also gave him confidence. But, you know, maybe for, you know, it's an interesting dynamic about how each of these characters do this with him and which one will win over. There's the show of strength. And then there's sort of like the confidence and feeling good about yourself and love and all this other stuff. And what's more manipulative in this particular situation?
Yeah, and also I think justification too, you know, in the attack on his family or the idea that there was this like assassination attempt or, you know, they were going to like set off a thinking machine in the Landsrad is a perfect justification for us. And I think everything Jordan's saying on the emotional side, and then you take the plot that he's able to now justify ramping up, you know, his new militarism.
What I love about this particular thing as we broke this story was because before the gathering of the troops and the presentation of the troops, we are subjected to a private moment with Desmond. And he's now converting himself from, you know, a soldier on Arrakis to one of the highest ranking military officials in the Imperium.
And I think that I don't see a lot of mustache twirling in the performance when he's out there being kind of lauded by the Emperor. I actually see someone who's actually very... kind of proud secretly you know what I mean that like this you know finally someone has you know kind of really cared enough to make him an important person in that role. And that really is an interesting part of this story because I don't think up until this moment he has really suffered defeat.
And he suffers defeat in this episode almost catastrophically. Right. And that's really kicking the beehive. So I'll ask one clarifying question, which is what is a Bashar? What does that mean? Oh, I think he's like, you know. Advisor. To me, it was like top advisor, like military advisor, like a secretary of defense or like somebody who's going to weigh in on all Imperium-related or military, I guess.
But an advisory role. And boots on the ground, too, though. Yeah, like a consigliere for that stuff. Well, let's talk about the Spice Club. Because... That was an incredible scene. Desmond gets a tip about the underground market and he heads right to Michaela's front door and there's a raid and it's...
Absolutely wild. I would love to hear about building the tension in that sequence. Those sequences are always really fun. I mean, you know, what was tricky about filming it is, was it a two-level set, Jordan? Or, you know, we had to kind of... Redress it or to try and create it to feel much, much bigger. You know, we kind of redressed or kind of reshot.
levels of it, you know, differently. So it was a bit of a puzzle, kind of figuring out how to create the space inside. But narratively, you just want to feel like there's pressure coming from all. sides kind of building and it was really fun to finally bring him in.
you know, Michaela together in that space was really, I thought, kind of explosive. Yeah, I think if Valia is good about, you know, knowing what the emotional pressure points are on people and how to kind of, you know, make people kind of... open up or fall down. I think the Michaela interaction shows you that Desmond is equally good at that. I think he...
zeroes in on the kind of like, I don't understand, you're a Fremen, you're here in the imperial capital selling spice. And particularly because he's also, part of his life has been on Arrakis, you know, fighting off. Fremen sabotage. It's confusing, but his indictment of her, it really does open up this emotional wound that kind of... blows up throughout the entire episode, you know, literally and figuratively in her scenes with Kieran and then ultimately with Vali Harkonnen.
You know what strikes me as odd is the fact that you are here. A Fremen. Profiting of the rape of your own planet. Communing with your oppressors. I've found a different way to survive. Or a different way to kill.
Well, all of us here, obviously, have talked about how we love Fremen. But, you know, this is like the most straightforward acknowledgement of a Fremen character and their motivations. And, you know, maybe some folks have not read the books or seen the movies. Could you just explain a little bit like why?
it's so like what's going through Desmond's mind about what he knows about Fremen and what she's doing here. Like what is the Fremen relationship to the empire and why is it odd that she's selling spice there? Our understanding of it is that Fremen aren't the most, would you say, they're not all over the Imperium. They tend to very much stay on Arrakis. So to see a Fremen sister is a...
a bit like not unique, but like, but not typical, I guess you would say. And then like Jordan said, she's in a sort of. loose spice economy, you know, that involves smuggling spice and maybe attacking the harvesters and is she in league with the rebels? And these are people Desmond has a beef with for a long... So he's trying to figure out really how she fits in this whole thing because it's not obvious. And how do you square that, by the way? Which I think we haven't—
In some ways, I feel like, look, for Michaela, I felt like this was her episode to kind of start to set the table about, like, what Michaela's issues are. And being Fremen... is part of who she is and is going to affect how she is a sister. And now she's finding herself in a moment where not only are those connections being used, they're being put right in the crosshairs of Valya and Desmond.
and where is her allegiance going to lie? I think by the end of episode five, like, it's not a settled question. And I think she's troubled in ways that, you know, maybe are... And I think that's one of the things we're showing across the show a bit of like you can get caught up in an organization and then you're acting on behalf of it and you're driven and you have a goal and you have a purpose and you even have a noble purpose.
But how do you square sort of what you're asked to do? And Michaela, I think, is starting to have some of it back up on her in ways that she finds disconcerting. Yeah, that was one of the bigger themes I noticed, especially in this episode, is that members of the sisterhood are, you know, what sacrifices do have to be made for it to become sisterhood above all?
Are these various characters willing to pay those prices is more in question than ever before, I think. Exactly. I won't betray my people the same way I did Horace and the others. The sisterhood is your people. I see you're molding this one in your image. Let's see how long you remain this naive acolyte. Love the setup for Mikhail in this episode.
really looking forward to seeing more from her um also love that she did not she did not fall for the atreides that's one thing i was like holding my breath for i was like please don't fall for the atreides i was like she is a consummate professional so i really like that about her That's so awesome. You know, we talked about that and we explicitly moved away from love triangle here. Like it just didn't feel like what the story really was calling for. I agree with you.
Speaking of sisterhood, we got to go to Wallach 9, where things are not going so good. And some really strange things are afoot with Lila awakening as Raquel. My God, amazing acting. Again, Chloe Lee is so good. Incredible. I did not really truly expect Raquel to come back. How did you come up with this idea that like Raquel, was that always in the plan that, you know, Lila would be this abomination?
Yes. I mean, I think we all were like very interested in abomination as a concept, you know, and as a sisterhood concept and this idea that, you know, Tula is really playing with. fire a little bit in what she's doing. And Lila is a massive wild card in the show now. Yes. I also feel like we can't not talk about our ending here.
Tula's discovery of Desmond's genetic background, Harkonnen and Atreides. Obviously, we're going to be learning more about, or at least I assume we're going to be learning more about Desmond's heritage, but I would love to know... Like, for Dune fans, it does really all kind of come back to Atreides and Harkonnens, right? And... I'm curious from your points of view, like what makes these two families so unique and special just even within the Dune universe?
Well, definitely Paul Atreides and the notion that the Atreides and the Harkonnen bloodlines would create like an incredibly powerful, charismatic, volatile. sort of point of potential that could break good, that could break bad, that could be manipulated, but something that would have a force is something that we were aware of. And I think what's so provocative is you have this 10,000-year feud.
Between the two families. So you don't have a lot of bloodline crossing. And like that these bloodlines have never crossed before. And I think we basically have a lot of story kind of. emanating from this notion of the power and the rarity, what does that mean that there was kind of Desmond Hart in our time period? Yeah.
has many layers to it, but it starts here. It starts in season one. You saw it happen. We're going to see the fallout. Definitely got a lot of gears turning in my head, for sure. Well, thank you all for joining us. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. And now we are joined by Josh Houston, who plays Constantine. Hi, Josh. Hi, how you doing? And Tabu, who plays Sister Francesca. Hi, Tabu. Hi. Hi, Ahmed. Thank you both for being here. Shall we start by...
doing what we've asked every single guest here, what was your relationship like with Dune and maybe even sci-fi in general before you joined the show? Dabu, I'd love to hear from you first. I think Star Trek was my first. And the strongest association or relationship that I had with sci-fi. I grew up watching Star Trek. We got Star Trek on Sundays. 11 a.m in the morning. I still remember when we were growing up and we had a black and white television in Hyderabad.
And I would just stop everything to just watch Star Trek. So for me, that is the strongest impression of sci-fi. And then not much, honestly, unless there is an element of... philosophy and the human element that you can relate to. Which is perfect for Dune. Yeah, I was going to say Dune is perfect, but you did not know about Dune. Dune is perfect. Dune is perfect.
What about you, Josh? My grandfather introduced me to the Dune universe when I was a kid. But I don't... really remember any of it and kind of fell back in love with the whole text and the law and everything when the first film came out and then I read the books after that but in terms of sci-fi I I loved everything sci-fi and fantasy. Yeah, I guess Star Wars and then even Starship Troopers. You know that one with all the bugs and stuff? Sure. Yeah, I watched that.
My dad made me watch that one. It's like I watched it like nine times with him. Yeah. He made me. He made me. He forced me to watch these bugs get destroyed. That's a very common theme in this podcast is that our parents made us into sci-fi fans. So you're not alone. My mom was the one for me in Dune. Yeah, I heard that on your podcast. The Alison podcast. You mean on this podcast? My mother read on the book and you forced me to watch Dune. Right? Yeah.
She was a very cool mom and she would have loved to hear this conversation. You're lucky.
Oh my gosh, that's so sweet. I love it. Well, I want to know, Tabu, what drew you to this role? I mean, this is a big debut for the character. You know, you're coming in towards the end here, and we've seen... you in the world as a younger character but you know i want to know like what brought you what attracted you to the role of sister francesca it's a beautiful character and i remember getting just one scene on my email and i read that and i'm like
If this is that one scene that I have to do in this show, I'm good with this. Because that one scene gave me an idea of what the background was, how important she is.
what role she is playing in the story yeah and as a person I could really relate to her and though I hadn't read the whole script I didn't know what's happening in the first like the episodes before i come i was like i don't need to know because i know so as an actor and with so much experience you understand right that the audience will be forced to imagine what has happened in her life before this yeah and that's so beautiful because when you're coming and making such a strong impact
on the story and on the lives of these characters. And luckily I had the time. I mean, everything fell into place. Sometimes I'm like, oh my God, thank God. If it would have come like six months before, I would have been in a fix. So I guess I was destined to... Play Francesca, Constantine's mother. Yeah. I want that. You killed it. It was so much fun. We did.
So, yes, I definitely want to talk about the fact that Francesca is Constantine's mother, because I think that is a huge reveal among many in this episode, I will say. But first, Josh, I would love to talk a little bit just about like the trajectory we've seen of Constantine so far because... I feel like over these five episodes, I mean, I remember seeing him in episode one and he's like strutting through the sisterhood, checking out all the ladies. Like he kind of has like pretty serious.
like fuck boy vibes, pardon my language. Yeah. Yeah. And by episode five, we're getting a lot more depth from him. And we're seeing that he does want to do more and he does want more opportunities to help. I'd love to hear what it's been like for you to sort of go through that journey as the character. yeah i guess for me at the beginning of the series he definitely did have extreme fuck boy yeah but i feel like a lot of that is like it's like a symptom of the fact that he doesn't feel like
he has a sense of destiny and there's not as much control to the heights that he can rise in terms of the Imperium. And it's also the childhood trauma that gets explored in like episode two and a lot of the things he does with like- like women and drugs and alcohol it's to kind of soothe that pain and to just give him some like an outlet to blow off some steam and in this environment where even when he's at home his dad kind of just
I don't know, treats him like shit as well. So it's kind of, yeah, all of those things put together. But then I think Taboo, when she comes, when Francesca comes back into his life, he definitely feels like that. sense of purpose and i think maybe that that yearning he had for a relationship with his mother is also quite
Soothed in a way. So he doesn't need to direct all of his energy into those sort of like negative things. He kind of has an outlet in a much more positive way. And then yeah, it definitely starts to play. the game of Dune in a much more strategic manner. The game of Dune, I love that. Yeah, snakes and ladders. Yeah. Yeah. So would you both say that there's love between Francesca and Constantine? I love him a lot.
I think it's a difficult relationship that they have. From his side, especially. Because she's been away. I think they have a very, very intense relationship. It's little... estranged and it is all of that right yeah i feel like constantine has so much love for her still and i think that's part of the reason why he acts out so much because if he didn't then you you just cruise through life and i guess be
I just enjoy the riches that you do in the Imperium. But yeah, I think the second she comes back into his life, he definitely feels like he has a bit more purpose and direction. I think he's just one of those like wounded little kids that just doesn't have their mum around or their dad around and they've they're kind of just longing for that connection continuous and he doesn't get that from the Emperor.
Because he gives all that attention to Nez. So he's kind of always just been floating around, I think, until that moment. I also feel that internally for Francesca, especially when I was there. on set in the whole atmosphere of the Imperium and is becoming the Empress and all. For Francesca, I think it's the greatest sacrifice not to have her son on the throne. Interesting.
But for her, it's a very, very, very big conflict. You don't see the conflict, but I think internally I played that conflict because it's not possible that a mother... would not to see her own son on the throne and follow the sisterhood's purpose to make Nez the Empress. I'm sure she nurses this loss or grief or... Even her inability to see that happen.
and that is why even though she is you know on mother superior's behest she's playing this whole thing with the emperor but she's also making sure that her son has a very solid and secure place in the Imperium. Yeah, I think that she can see that Constantine... kind of isn't as a waste of space as a lot of the Imperium thinks he is he's actually in my opinion he's actually more intelligent than what he lets on and he kind of just observes everything in like a more like a periscope manner but
I feel like the second he's given a little bit of direction and he's like, okay, I've just found the, uh, like the spy within the imperial, like, you know what I mean? It's like within two seconds, he's like, oh, I can apply myself for once. So I think. That sort of thing, he probably could have been a good leader. And I think at this sort of stage in the season, you're seeing that, okay, he's kind of progressing in that way since Francesca came back in.
Totally. Well, that reminds me of the scene. I think we should play it. It's a standout scene of you two together. We really see your mother-son dynamic. It's lovely. Let's listen to a clip of it. All my life, I've had to learn about the great Carinos. Roderick, Jules, and the butlers before them. But I don't know anything about your family. Your sisterhood does everything with a purpose. Right? Grand plan. That's always our intention. Yes. What was your purpose in having me?
Constantine! What was your purpose in having me? You left me to be raised by a father who can't stand me and never will. What's the purpose in that? Sorry, I don't have a glass for you. You have to see your father for the man he really is. A man who can never be pleased. A man who's driven by fear. You, on the other hand, have never cared what anyone thinks of you. He was so good. He was so good. I literally had to stop myself from crying in the scene.
That was so much fun. So yeah, Josh, what do you think Constantine... I mean, he's going through so much in this scene. Yeah, I think it's just the...
Like everything's kind of been building up to this moment. Like his relationship with Nez is tested. His relationship with Kieran is tested. His relationship with his father is tested. And then all of a sudden his mom comes back in and he's just like, oh my God, what now? Is this person just going to... pack up and abandon me as well and then yeah in this moment i think you just kind of see him let it all go and
There's an aggressive scene before that where he's beating up the training dummy and you can kind of see that rage come out. And then he goes back to the drink and then his mom just gives him a little bit of hope. And it's like he just needed someone to, I think, have some unconditional...
love for him and give him the push in the right direction because he's kind of at those crossroads of whether he just lives up to what everyone thinks he's going to be and just becomes the playboy party or actually tries to make something of himself. Thabu, did you say that this was the first scene that you two filmed together? Yes. Yeah. That's amazing. How did you prepare for it?
We did one day of rehearsal, right, Josh? Yeah, we had one rehearsal day. And then we just would chill outside of one of our trailers and just yap for hours. Yeah. It felt very natural the whole time. We didn't feel like we had to... push for it or force it and i think we still had i think a couple weeks before that just like talking about stuff remember and then taboo would bring food for me to eat
Indian food because I was complaining that I couldn't, like, my cooking sucks. And then she was just like, I'll sort it out. Such a motherly act. I love that. Tupperware containers and then I'd literally live off it. It's also a very Indian Desi act. Yeah. So food is big. So I found out contacts. from production people in india found out the food places restaurant and they used to like send food to set it was great biryani i got for josh
It was so good. Or like if I was only filming a scene, she'd just be like, it's in your fridge. And I'd be like, I love you. Thank you. You are really doing our culture proud, Tabu. For sure. You have to do it. You have to bring the food. I like that, too. You know, we've got to give the biryani and the chai. Oh, my God. How wonderful. Well, I'd love to talk, too. I mean, it is clear that...
Constantine's relationship with his father are, we'll say, complicated at best. But what does Francesca think of him? What Francesca thinks of Constantine? Of Javiko. Of Javiko! Hmm. I think she understands his position in the situation he is in. She is definitely in love with him. Even though it was like, you know, an arrangement to, I mean, through the sisterhood. But I don't think anybody in the sisterhood envisioned that they would.
be a strong emotional bond between Haviko and Sister Francesca. I think she does not want to express how much she feels for the emperor because then that would... make it more difficult for the emperor. She wants to keep that to herself because she also wants to keep the sisterhood's objective above her own emotions and above her feelings. You know, she called him a man driven by fear, which to me...
That's a big criticism. I totally saw some of that love, but that's a really big insult in this world, that it's a man driven by fear. So it could be an insult. but also i think she's coming from a lot of experience yeah of life of human beings she has seen so much she knows that Being on a throne with that kind of position and power also comes with a lot of fear. Anybody who is in that position of power and who is sitting at the top of the pedestal.
is bound to have fear of losing it. So I think and I feel that that's what she means when she says that he's driven by fear because he's afraid of losing everything. He's afraid of being betrayed. He's afraid. I don't think she thinks that he has that much control because she knows that the truth sayers are actually controlling his decisions.
For that exact reason, she knows that there is a lot of fear. She sees things clearly. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I don't know if she says it as a criticism, but also she has to give her son enough reason. for him to stop being so angry with the father you know she's trying to justify because she sees that he's so tormented by his relationship with his father so just she's just trying to
Make peace between the father and son. Like most mothers or parents do for the other parent. It's okay. He's not so bad. It's just fear. He's just insecure. Totally. Totally. I think it's coming from there. So, Josh, by the end of this episode, Constantine gets a promotion. And I wonder how much you think Francesca's advice... in that scene inspires Constantine to turn in Kiran Atreides. I think, well, even in her wording, because...
And Francesca, I think, is aware of the plot for, I guess, with the rebellion and everything. So the wording, I think, was almost a little bit prescriptive in terms of, like, even the person that's most... like closest to it to your sister could be the person that's not actually the one looking out for her but i think francesca's i think just simple push and the hint of actually like a positive reinforcement from someone outside of nez was kind of all it took for him to
I guess, start taking charge and making his own plays. That's really interesting. It's helpful to be reminded of that because, you know, the other question, of course, is like the extent to which Constantine is threatening his relationship with Inez by... actually calling out Kieran the way he does, you know? Yeah, so it's that double-edged sword in this moment. Yeah, such a great moment for unveiling, you know, the full Constantine intelligence. And for the last question here...
You know, there's like a real tragedy to your character's relationship. If all this, all the Imperium wasn't here, you're free from all of it. What do you think each of your characters would wish they could tell the other?
Josh, why don't you start? What would you tell Francesca? Oh, God. I think Constantine... would tell francesca that he just loves her and that's kind of all it's been the whole time he just wanted that relationship with his mother and i think he does understand that that's just not practical and that's just not the duty of her and then the duty of him
It just doesn't work like that. And he's probably thinking maybe if he was born a woman, he might have had the opportunity to train at the Bene Gesserit with Francesca. But unfortunately... There's not that. So yeah, I think he would just tell her that he loves her and he's probably sorry for causing so much damage all the time. That's really sweet. I think I would like to apologize to Constantine.
and say sorry to him for just abandoning him you know because there is no way that he is going to be able to understand or be okay with the fact that she just left like you said What was the purpose? Some questions you have no answers for except an apology. I think she would like to apologize and she would like to make up for all the time that she lost. And bring him Indian food on set. Yeah. I think I was making up for all that. Feed him, feed him, feed him.
This was so great. Thank you both for joining us. We're excited to see where the story goes. Thank you. Thank you both so much. That was such a pleasure. And now, Greta, we've got a conversation that I had with the composer of Dune Prophecy. He was amazing. So cool. Let's go listen. We are so excited to be joined by the man behind the music, composer Volker Bertelman. Welcome to the pod, Volker. Thank you, Ahmed. So happy to have you. You know, we've been asking everybody.
what their relationship with Dune was like. Were you a Dune fan before this show? Yeah, absolutely. I was even a Dune fan of the films. you know before the newest ones from denis i mean i was always a sci-fi fan anyways so every sci-fi movie that i could watch i watched And so I had the feeling once when I got asked to do the music for the series, there was hardly nothing in me saying no. You're ready to go. I was ready to go.
Could you actually tell people a little bit about your work? As a musician, what kind of people who are not familiar with your work, you do a lot of different stuff. Could you just briefly explain how you make music and the different styles you do? Well, I mean, you know, I would say... Most likely the music that I always wanted to do. I started in around 2002 with my first record under the artist name Hauschka.
and that was the first time where I in a way did electronic music with a acoustic instrument with a prepared piano so i i taped a lot of trash into the piano to create drum kits and you know all sorts of experimental sounds inside of the piano what was the word they used that you taped Did you say trash? Did I hear trash? Yeah, yes, yes. I'm using things from the, let's say, from the kitchen, things that are like leftover light filters.
all sorts of things that are like ping pong balls are maybe the less trash i sometimes fill up the grand piano with 5 000 ping pong balls and then they start to fly while i'm playing because you you know while you're while you're performing the ping pong balls are jumping out of the piano and at the same time you create notes So that is a very, it's a very interesting experiment and I love this so much.
I mean, prepared piano is a very restrained name for what the performance is like. I encourage people to watch videos of your performances because they're very interesting. But let's move into Dune. How would you characterize the... genre of how you approached scoring this? Because there's a lot of elements to the show in addition to the sci-fi elements. And how did that inform your approach to the score?
Well, first of all, TV series are always different than cinema films because you have a lot of different things to handle. So, for example, for Dune, for all six episodes, I wrote six hours of music, which is... in comparison to a movie this is three movies right and um maybe to go a little bit backwards i started already writing music for the series before it was getting shot because for a few scenes they needed music on set and one is actually one is actually the sisterhood choir
where they do this kind of ritual together and you know there is the the water that is like water fountain in the middle of them is starting to to vibrate so all the music starts to to create these kind of waves And... that's for example something that i had to deliver to them in separate tracks so that they can record you know and film synchronized to the to the piece and then there was also a kind of a trade is ritual at the camp
fire where they needed to have music with you know that it was a little bit tribal what they described right So that was from the scene of the Atreides dancing around the fire in episode three. How did you go about writing that cue? I had to research what kind of instrument they could use and obviously what could they play, you know, at that time. you know, as we know, this time we have no definition.
for 10,000 years in the future. So what I did is I went to a guy that plays medieval woodwind instruments and I looked at his catalog of instruments. And there was one instrument that really stood out that was called the racket. And it looks a little bit like a wooden vase. I'm looking it up. Yeah. And it looks like an absolute gizmo. That is a gizmo, the racket. Like, it's really quite funny looking.
Is it in the scene? Yeah, it is. It's physically there. Wow, I'll have to look at it again. I was paying attention to the drums because for me, that was like a... We talked about in earlier episodes how the fact that that was Caladan and the Atreides was a little bit of a reveal for the audience. Like they didn't really tell you right away, we're in Atreides. And when you hear the tribal music, you're thinking like, who is this? Like, who are these people? But then you think...
The Trades are hunters, like, you know, like bulls and like, you know, taming an animal, a beast. It's like, it's part of their mythology. So like, it totally clicked for me, but it was like a... really kind of um unexpected twist but it totally clicked but the nice thing about it is about the series is that it's not like pushing too hard to be futuristic there is parts where you just get um
You know, you get actually a connection to the story. And I think that's in a way what happens when you read a book.
about it your brain in a way imagines sometimes things that are very close to our reality and they have maybe a little bit of a sci-fi approach but they are not too far away from it and dune feels to me a little bit like having always this contrast right well i think probably the piece of music that people have heard the most of the show so far would be the main theme music you know it
Definitely has a tense feeling for me. You know, there's a discomfort that comes with Dune. And I think that's a really, you know, you achieve that there. And it feels so Dune, like mysterious, epic, thoughtful. How did you come up with this theme? How early was the theme in your process? Well, the main theme was pretty late in the process because we were always talking about it, but then the main title was not finished.
Slowly, I received pictures of the concept, and then I wrote two or three drafts. where they decided one draft might be a good approach. And it was mainly based on the choir, actually on the sisterhood choir. Let's listen to that. Was there a shout in the very, very beginning that I layered underneath, like a human voice? Yeah.
oh wow yeah absolutely just this this time yeah that's really cool it's hidden underneath there yeah it's actually the you know that's always the in a way the tribal voice that i used in you know that is in a way But when I started first with that one, like two notes in a way, I was like not so sure if that is expressing something that is recognizable and also if I can work with. with those two notes just to make a theme out of it. But then I found out when I do the chord changes underneath
That this is very nice, that it's always a kind of signal. Somebody's alarmed. It sounds like somebody's shouting out, you know, saying, hey, wait, or look at there, look over there. You know, something like maybe a signal that... Sisters are shouting from one mountain to the other to alarm.
people on the other side. So that could be a kind of signal like that. Who are the voices, by the way? The singer is a lady from England. Her name is Josephine Stevenson. And she does very high, you know, very pristine voice. but I did with her a lot of like very raw, nearly at the edge of gurgling sounds. Sometimes I asked her to sound like a Romanian women's choir. You know, a lot of these Romanian women choir, they shout in a way. They're not like they sing in their throat much more.
so they they sound like really um intense um beautiful beautiful choirs but they have a different way of singing and so what i wanted is um i wanted something from an ancient tribe in a way to you know where they actually maybe they transported that voice from one generation to the other right
You know, you are known for using unique instruments. You know, we have the racket here. I wonder if the ballast set is something that we can talk about. That's an important element of Dune that I saw, at least on a set. So just for people who don't know, the ballast set is... fictional instrument from the dune universe it was written about it also has a lot of symbolic meaning uh it represents
you know, the human soul many times, you know, just like how people are expressing the fullness of their story? Well, the ballet set is, in a way, obviously something that is not existing. And when you have this, it is actually a model, in a way. And to find... something that is i looked into different instruments that look similar there's one guitar that i think is called the stick which is a electronic guitar that you tap and you play it you know um it's quite a you know
not a common, but an instrument that is not so rare. So I looked at that one and I... checked out how how you can play with several strings so obviously there was for the shooting they had a kind of instrument trainer for the actor and they needed a ballet set piece from my side create this ballet set piece for the palace when they have the party there. That's in episode one, right?
Yes, it's in episode one, exactly. And what is interesting is that this theme of the ballet set is later, in a way, always the theme of the palace. you
The sound for the ballet set is in a way distorted, plucked harp. And I doubled that with a... plucked guitar so i used a couple of instruments that i doubled on top of each other to make it sound a little bit more full and not like let's say like a mandolin or something like that, it felt like this instrument should have grace and it should sound big when somebody plays it.
It also goes in the same direction as what we talked about in the beginning. You don't want to have the instruments looking too sci-fi in a way. It also needs to be connected with the humans. So one of the other things we should talk about is some of the musical themes, meaning, you know, as a composer, you have to take us to different places, planets. We go to lots of different places. We have Lankyvel, which is the Harkonnen planet.
And we've talked a lot about how depressing that palace is. Let's talk about that music. Could we listen to that a little bit, actually, as well? Yeah, yeah, please. What I liked about it it was a little bit like a pre-industrial or you know the beginning of the industrial age kind of scene where You felt like machines are involved to make these huge animals, to cut them. a lot of red blood on the snow and then she buys some whale butcher, I guess.
some some whale meat um so what was there before was in a way the melody like you know this melody that comes that was for me just like a kind of yearning melody that was singing of a that was dreaming of another planet in a way or with a singing of another time in a way you know you you feel like the heaviness of it absolutely um well i have a very i have a let's say a
nagging question that i've had in the back of my head which is a little silly but if i'm going to the space club um and i want to listen to the most popular song at the Dune Club. What is it called? Who's the artist? And why is everyone wanting to listen to it right now? What do you think? You mean the one that we hear the very first one in the club? Is that the one? You know, it's popular. It's got to be a banger, right? Do we have a name for it? Well, it's actually, I wrote it.
Yeah, it's you, of course. Volker. Yeah, it's me. It's me. It's actually from my techno past. Yeah, I had the feeling that it maybe should have a little bit of a Kraftwerk approach. Okay, nice. Yeah, definitely Kraftwerk vibe. I guess I mean, do you think it's like a band of people making it in the Dune universe? Do you think it's like, who's making it?
the music why do you think you like do we have a sense of that um i don't know i i have the feeling that it's maybe um well it sounds a little bit like the machine is you know taking parts out of the technology like in a way like an AI or it's a subculture right it's got to be use the things that are you know kind of pushing the barrier so it makes sense that yeah exactly but I think in Dune it feels a little bit more I have the feeling that this is
maybe coming from a robot. Yeah. I feel like you'd be in the club like, this sounds like a thinking machine made it. Is this okay for us to listen to? You know, like they're yelling in the club, like, you know, is this okay? Exactly. Thank you so much for joining us, Volker. Thank you, Amit, for having me.
That's all for this week. We will be back next Sunday night with more special guests to break down the sixth and final episode of Dune Prophecy. It is the season finale. You are not going to want to miss this one. You can watch on HBO or stream exclusively. on max and if you like what you're hearing don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on the dune prophecy social media handles
The official Dune Prophecy podcast is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. I'm Greta Johnson, and you can find me on socials at Greta M. Johnson. And I'm Amadali Akbar. You can find me at Rad Brown Dads.
Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jayanne Berry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer for the show is Hannes Brown. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira.
This episode is mixed by Hannes Brown. This episode was edited by Darby Maloney and our producers are Ben Goldberg and Melissa Akiko-Slaughter. Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Alison Cohen, and Aaron Kelly from the Max Podcast team. Thanks for listening. See you next week. You lied to us. Everyone has secrets, Atreides.