There are predators in our midst. And we need a leader who will chase those predators. away from now on there will be no excuses no exceptions Welcome to the official Dune Prophecy podcast. I'm Greta Johnson. And I'm Ahmad Ali Akbar. Today, we're unpacking the fourth episode of Dune Prophecy. And we are not doing it alone. First, we have writers Kevin Lau and Suzanne Rubel to break it all down with us.
And then we are joined by actors Sarah Sophie Busnina, Shalom Brun Franklin, and Chris Mason, who play Princess Inez, Sister Michaela, and the palace swordsmaster, Kiran Atreides. And finally, we get to talk world building with visual effects producer Taryn Pratt and visual effects supervisor Michael Enriquez, who helped bring this beautiful and terrifying world to life.
All right, you know the drill. There are spoilers here for the first four episodes of Dune Prophecy, so we would highly recommend you go watch those first and then come back. Push further into your mind. Show me what you see. All right, should we do a quick recap of this fourth episode called Twice Born, Emmett? Yes. So let's start on Walk 9, where all of the Acolytes are having a terrible simultaneous nightmare. All of them except for Jen. Feeling a little left out, but...
probably for the better for her. So Tula makes them go into a trance and draw what they see, but the experiment does not go as planned. Meanwhile, Valia returns home to House Harkonnen as part of her plan to wheedle her way back into the Emperor's good graces. And at the High Council gathering, Inez is about to reveal Desmond Hart's part in Pruitt's murder, but Desmond reveals the truth himself and also squashes the rebel plot that Valia has put into motion. So, uh...
Kind of a lot of things happening in this episode. Serpent eating its own tail. Lots of flots. You know, I was head spinning by the end. Yeah. You know, of course, we see a lot of Valya in her home. That's, I think, been a big... a big moment here for her to come back into that space. And you know, it's not very...
It just still continues to be a very unhappy family. Very, very unhappy family. Yes. Very dire. I mean, what plan are we on with Vali at this point? I mean, it's definitely not plan A. Is it plan B or are we at plan C by now? It just reminds me of that line from X-Men where they're like, I don't like the term plan A because that implies we only have 26 plans. I'm always thinking that when this is like, it's not plan A. It's like plan one through...
a billion. You know what I mean? I don't think she... I think they're all operating at the same time. I think that's one of the amazing things that you have to think about the Reverend Mothers is these people have a lot of minds in them, okay? They become computers in their own way because they... They have their ancestors' full memories.
Like, really think about that. Like, the database of their mothers and everyone before them is in their head like a hard drive. Like, it's terabytes. Yeah, that is a really interesting and helpful analogy, I think. Because, yeah, you think about how many different things your computer can do at once.
And yeah, it's like, they're just going. But what I think is also great is they're also humans. You know what I mean? Like, it's not... They're fallible. Yes. Yes. Well, and things just don't go as...
planned in this episode, I think in some very interesting ways. I think especially about the Landsraad, which I would love to hear your thoughts. Like, did you think Desmond Hart was just going to stand up in front of all those people and be like, yeah, I did it. So what? Honestly, I was going into there thinking, okay, Desmond has been the most... straightforward guy that's true in an odd way like
As opposed to the sisterhood, where no one knows what they're really thinking and they kind of evade questions, he answers you directly. And he kind of seems to do what he says, even if it's a mystery why he's doing it. So it makes sense that he would do that. He would just be like, yeah, I'm going to...
start executing people. That's true. It does make sense. And then, of course, he's going to burn a bunch of people from the inside, too, because why not? That's the perfect way to shore up a lot of support, I think, and really instill the fear that will help establish his power, right? Yeah. And God, what a terrible way to die.
Horace's death was bad, man. I wasn't like the biggest fan of him, but it's not fun to, like just the tearing the clothes off. Ugh, horrifying. Dude, less scorched earth and more scorched flesh. Sorry I had to say it. Yes. Okay, now we are going to go beyond the veil and break down the episode with the writers of this episode, Kevin Lau and Suzanne Rubel. Welcome, you two. Hello. Thank you.
And we're so excited to have you here. And, you know, we've been asking every guest this. What was your relationship with Dune before you joined this project? Suzanne, why don't we start with you? Yeah, I was a big Dune fan. I think I picked up Dune. I was a big sci-fi fantasy fan growing up. So I think I read Dune probably around...
14 or 15. Loved it. I still have my original paperback versions. I think that probably some of the headier political stuff maybe went over my head a little bit as a kid. Same, by the way. Yeah, totally. But even as a teenager, it felt like very elevated and sort of almost like an introduction to philosophy. But then I revisited the series as an adult.
And sort of, you know, reread the entire thing and, you know, loved it just as much. So, yeah, when the opportunity came up to work on the show, it was sort of a dream come true. What about you, Kevin? My first exposure to Dune was when I was a young lad and I had come upon David Lynch's Dune on KTLA 5 on television.
And I was watching it. I was like, what are these sand words? This is insane. From there, I had an extreme curiosity of it. I mean, it was unlike anything that I had seen. And then, you know, consequently, when I read the books, you know. science fiction without real- without delving into technology and more so delving into characters and the idea of humanity, you could just start seeing the influence that that had on all this other science fiction that I really liked and all these other movies.
movies that I really liked. And then when I got onto this project, I was very excited when I got the call. So this episode is called Twice Born. I imagine it was called that for a number of different reasons, but I would love to hear why. You know, I think it's a reference to the clue they get from Raquel in episode two when they're able to access her through Lila. You know, she sort of says the key to the reckoning is one twice born. And in this episode, we see...
You know, Valya and Tula on their separate paths, sort of exploring, you know, Valya's kind of on Salusa, hunting down the Desmond track, who she believes is the twice-born, that he's the reckoning coming for the sisterhood, and that's what that prophecy means.
Tula is dealing with the fact that these nightmares that Kaja experienced are coming to Wallach at the sisterhood with the students are experiencing these. And there's this question, is that the reckoning coming to the sisterhood? And you see at the end.
You know, she has this hope that maybe Lila is the one twice born, you know, once born in blood, once born in spice, that she's going to be the key to the reckoning maybe in a good way versus Desmond, you know, Vali is sort of believing that Desmond's the reckoning, this sort of twice born figure in a bad way. i also think that in this episode there are a lot of characters that go through rebirths um in one form or fashion and lila obviously of course and yes we are hinting at
The reckoning with the twice-born, but also for all these characters, I think they all go through major journeys in this episode. I want to talk about Lila. Let's focus on Lila a little bit because that's where we did end the episode. We have Lila waking up, you know. Was Tula doing this because she really thought this would happen? Was it grief? Like, was this what was expected? Talk about the state that Lila and Tula are in at the end of that episode.
This was a young woman that she cared deeply about that she could not let go. I think also through this journey that they've been on, you know, she is hoping that she is the key to Raquel's prophecy, you know, that... there is an idea that if she can bring her back to life. you know perhaps she can help solve uh what is happening at the sisterhood i i think there's just a lot of love at the end of the episode you know a lot of caring um there's some hope i think that emerges from the shadows
between Tula and Lila. And also, where Lila wakes up to, it's a huge question mark for her. And Tula had to risk exposing her to this great secret in order to bring her back to life.
I think one of the most fun things about the writer's room is that we're like constantly getting into debates about, you know, these characters, like the characters of Dune, what's great about them is they're not black and white heroes and villains, but the characters exist in the gray. And I think this really interesting way and we're constantly.
arguing about our characters, like their intentions, like where they exist on that scale. And that's one of my favorite things about working on this show. Absolutely. And like what's best for the greater good, what's best for humanity, not... this year, not next year, but potentially 10,000 years down the line. How do you weigh what you're willing to sacrifice in order to achieve that end? That's the morally squishy area that we like to play in.
Morally squishy is such a good way of putting that I love it Well, yeah, let's back up to the beginning of this episode when the Acolytes are having the same nightmare. I think this arc is so fascinating. We see the nightmare initially, which I feel like this episode has a lot of like, is this a dream? or is this really happening moments? But we see Emmeline slitting her own throat in a nightmare.
I guess let's start with, I mean, how are these acolytes all having the same dream? They're also very reminiscent of what Kasha was dreaming about too. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, obviously it's a lot of it's open to interpretation, but I think, you know,
intention here is to reflect Kasha's nightmare coming to Wallach, and could this be the reckoning that is coming? Yeah, so it was an exciting opportunity to try and figure out, like, how do we want to explore that? We wanted to come up with a fun
you know, sort of visceral visual sequence to have Tulik sort of explore those nightmares. So that's where the sort of... idea of having these acolytes draw their nightmares and playing with the idea that that part of their training right is they can sort of control themselves on this sort of cellular level or you know sort of be able to do these things that um
that other people can't and use their training to have Tula guide them back through this nightmare, but now control it. Obviously that doesn't, that's not quite how it goes down. Can I ask just like making this happen in the writer's room to me?
deals with a very fascinating historical concept. The idea that people are like compulsively doing the same thing as a group. But we were talking beforehand, like the dancing plague of 1518, just people dancing themselves to death. Why is this happening? You know, like, I think it's a very... like unusual scene you've set up here. I want to talk about how, what was the inspiration? I thought the use of the word hysteria in that scene was also like very, very incisive.
Yeah. And I think in terms of coming up with the sequence, I mean, that was a great, very intelligent reference. I feel like we came to it because we were just like, we want something cool. Cool things are real. That's the best way to do it. I love that. Yeah, but I think we wanted to evoke that feeling of the mass hysteria and not just have like, you know, Tula going from student to student being like, what was your nightmare? But being able to.
do it in this way that felt this growing sense of dread and the fact that they're all experiencing the same thing to be able to evoke that, that it's this. this thing that has come to the sisterhood as a whole versus sort of experiencing it all as like individuals. Yeah. And it really, it is like a huge test for Tula and in terms of like her leadership.
How is she going to deal with this as the de facto mother superior? And we want to put her in a situation that allowed her to explore that and, you know, to also compare it to like, well, what would Avalia have done? Let's listen to Tula kind of setting up the experiment because I think it is just a really interesting scene. I want you to close your eyes. Feel your heart rate slow.
A vision forms in your mind. Now, take your charcoal. Allow the connection between the mind and the body to guide your hand. Show me what you see. I'm getting chills just here at the charcoal. I know, right? Like, honestly, just imagining that picture they draw at the end. I'm like, oh, no, I don't want them to do that again. I mean, it is really interesting.
I love what you bring up about the idea of, like, yes, Tula could have asked each of these people individually what they saw, but the magnitude of all of them all at once doing the same thing is so much more impactful. And I think listening to...
yeah, Tula's kind of introduction. I think just what's great about Dune, and I think the thing that's interesting is that you have these aspects of the world that kind of, you know, could feel magical, but they're not. Like, they always have this basis in sort of a physical reality or science. And what's so fun about Dune is that...
All these things kind of arose out of getting rid of machines that humans sort of had to elevate themselves to sort of replace that. And that's why essentially we didn't want Tula to, for this to be magic, there had to be a sort of reason why it made sense for them to be able to go back into their nightmares. that this is something that their skills as sisters, they would be able to do. So it kind of has that blend of science and magic that I think makes Dune kind of special.
And what do the eyes mean? Big question. Eyes are creepy. And just how scary it is when Tula realizes she... no longer has control. Yes. That fear has taken over. That moment I know we really wanted to build to and that helplessness that she feels and the terror of it all. Yeah, the layers of fear there are pretty interesting, right? Because all the girls are obviously super afraid, but then Tula on seeing that and realizing that she's lost control also is experiencing her own fear.
Which, again, I think also harkens back to Dune, right? The idea that it's the mind killer. I mean, here we are. Yeah. And then at the end of the episode, you sort of culminate in Tula, you know, Tula's nightmare and sort of seeing her fears.
Well, I really want to keep talking about this, but we have to... There's other plots in the show, too, that we've got to discuss. So we should move to Valya, I think, in the Harkonnen house. She's in a very uncomfortable spot here in House Harkonnen. Let's talk a little bit about...
What's been going on with House Harkonnen since Valya left them? Well, I think what's interesting in one of the initial scenes where Valya returns to Harkonnen House, both sides feel like the other party abandoned them. You know, Valia left, chose a sisterhood. And, you know, from Valia's point of view, it feels like they rejected her and rejected her methods and what she wanted to do to return house.
Harkonnen to its rightful position in the Imperium. And you can see in her leaving House Harkonnen in the intervening years, House Harkonnen has not done well. You know, they are a low house that are... middling and struggling right now struggling to gain influence in the imperium and struggling i i would i would think to to just really survive Based on their whale fur trade, you know, they've been slowly trying to work their way up, pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, so to speak.
But, I mean, look at the other side of the coin. By their whale fur bootstraps. Exactly. They're in style. They'll never go out of style. And... If you look at the other side of the coin, look at what Vali has done with the sisterhood. I think that is one of the arguments Vali makes to Evgeny in that final scene. If they had followed her, they would already be at the top of the mountain.
Your poor sister. I did nothing to Tula. You knew how much she admired you. You abused her love like you abused Griffin's. Until you broke her too. All you Harkonnens are c- Too afraid to make difficult choices. I will not apologize for what I did, and I will not apologize for my strength! Such strength? It's sorcery!
I saw it that day before you left Lankyvale. I knew then one day it would destroy me. You know, Evgeny is like a pretty... nasty kind of guy seems like to me i would not want to be in a conversation with him but you're kind of like oh like i guess
Maybe she did get Griffin killed. He has some points there while he's suffering and dying, even though it's really awful and pointed. They really can't see eye to eye. That's how I saw it, at least. Maybe I'm identifying with monsters, but that's what's so great about Dune also.
you're like oh maybe the monster is yeah and i think it's one of the few times you sort of see older Valya get heated in that way, you know, which I think indicates that some of the things he's saying to her may be, you know, sort of poking at fears that she herself has, you know, that she got Griffin killed.
So yeah, that was a great, fun confrontation because I think he is saying to her things that she does not want to hear. But, you know, I think this idea that she left House Harkonnen to join the sisterhood because they're the ones Raquel sort of saw her strength. and valued it in a way that House Harkonnen never could is kind of like the core of the emotional.
you know, push-pull between the sisterhood and the Harkonnens for Valya. And I just love Evgeny dishing truth back at Valya. Like, you know, you could absolutely say everything he is saying is right, you know, from one perspective. You know, she potentially did get Griffin killed. You know, she did understand her relationship with Tula and how to manipulate that. And that Tula looked up to her.
I mean, there is truth to what he's saying, and I think that is why Vali responds the way that she does. It is hard to hear. So Valia, of course, brings Theodosia with her, which is... Very interesting. I have a lot of questions about this one, but what the hell, you guys? We're talking, of course, about Theodosa showing up with Griffin's face. We thought that would be a very interesting moment, a very cool moment.
It was a very interesting moment. Throughout the season, we've been building up that Theo is unique. And the question in the room always came up of how do we reveal that she's able to do this? Like, in terms of the sequence, what's interesting about it for me in working on it is, like, I think you brought this up earlier. Like, this episode plays with the idea of, like, what is a dream? What is a nightmare? What is reality? And when you see...
When Valya sees Griffin across the room from her after this highly explosive emotional scene that she went through, like, is the audience believing, does the audience believe that this is real? And playing with that idea and the tension within the narrative itself, I thought was an incredibly fun way to reveal what Theo's powers are in such an emotionally impactful way for volume.
And at the same time, us understanding that Theo is now aligned with Valia and is willing to do what it takes in order to fulfill this mission. Well, and she was hesitant initially. I mean, there is a... conversation earlier in the episode that I think is also worth highlighting because she's very she thought she was never gonna have to use it more or less right yes yes and and And what we see, too, is that there's a consequence in the pain she has to go through in order to shift.
Change shape. And, you know, in this episode, it's Theo's choice to turn into Griffin. It's sort of a gift she's giving Valya in her way of telling Valya, I'm willing to do this for you. So that... That's sort of Theo's choice in this instance of her showing Valya. Like, I understand how hard it was for you to come and do this. I understand, like, that I need to also make this sacrifice.
I think we thought of it as almost like a gift that she's giving Balya in that moment to be able to sort of see her brother again. That makes sense. Let us go. to the lands rad which is also like one of these like mind twisty turning like you're walking in with so many plots happening and you don't know which one's gonna go off which bomb is going off which which plot is gonna be the be the main ticker
But I think it's worth talking about because we've talked about the Landsrad a few times. What is the Landsrad? What is actually the Landsrad for people who are not familiar? And what's the power structure here? So the Landsrad is... I don't know if this is accurate, but I sort of think of it as like, you know, the Senate or like, you know, it's a sort of governing body, but it's basically all the great houses of the Imperium that sort of come together.
you know, for sort of issues of the Imperium. Technically, in episode four, what we're seeing is the High Council meeting, which is the sort of... I think there's a division in Dune of the sort of like great and like minor houses. So the high council are sort of the top of the top like houses. So this is a sort of smaller group than like the larger lands rad would be more of the houses. But that's what Harrow sort of wants. House Harkonnen.
They are already a house, but they want to be elevated to the high council. They want to be in on the high council. Yeah. Yeah. It's a ruling class coming together to, you know, rule and politic and do all their stuff. I do think that's always the device of bringing a bunch of people together.
is always so interesting and can work in a variety of different ways. You know, you can have your like catastrophic wedding or just like weird party. But I think this is another instance of that, right? Where, and especially to Amit's point, like there are so many different.
People with different motivations walking into that room that I think that moment is always really exciting in a great TV show because you're just like, I have no idea what's about to happen. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this was a beast of a scene. I think to not only write, but just to conceive of. And this is a culmination of a lot of story points, not only for this episode, but I think across.
the first four episodes you know desmond you know we play cards down uh as to like what his motivations are and what he is ultimately going to do I think that's part of the fun of the scene, too, is like, well, what is Desmond going to do? Like, what does he know what's going to happen? You know, I think juggling that tension across multiple storylines.
You know, it was very tricky. Yeah. I think every character is coming into this with a sort of plan and motivation, which was really fun. And then ultimately, you know, we knew that this was going to be a moment for Desmond. to kind of step forward and publicly exert his power in a way that is going to make the great houses sort of bow down to the to the emperor which you know we see that Natalia is kind of trying to push the emperor to be a little stronger in this moment.
Yeah, so he kind of supersedes everything. I mean, I think it's funny because like the speech he sort of gives about all of these sort of animals on Arrakis and then the one Leviathan that sort of comes and defeats them all. And in a way that's sort of acted out here where it's like everyone is kind of has their...
their little political machinations or their little their plots that they're all kind of coming together and then you just have a you know desmond kind of come in and supersede all of that i think what's what's also great in that storyline is that Desmond ultimately gives the decision to the emperor and is waiting for him to pass judgment. And I think that is a defining moment for the emperor. Will he or will he not use Desmond as a weapon?
And then we see what happens from there. Yeah. Well, thank you both so much for joining us. This was such an amazing episode. We're excited to see the rest of the season. Awesome. Thank you guys so much. It was really fun. Thank you so much for having us. And now we are very happy to welcome the actors behind a few of our favorite characters. Sarah Sophie Busnina, who plays Princess Ynez.
Shalom Brun Franklin, who plays Michaela, and Chris Mason, who plays Kieran Atreides. Thank you all for being here. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thanks for having us, yeah. So you all have characters who have a very kind of layered levels of motivation. And we've really enjoyed seeing like the multiple...
layers to each of your characters. Did you all know that that was going to be the case when you started in the show? Like, Chris, Shalom, did you know that your characters were going to be so instrumental to the rebellion? Yeah, I think we'll be got five scripts, right? That was kind of how we started. We kind of got the first five episodes.
you know, you get to kind of go through that. And, you know, Alison had mentioned about the rebellion and how important that was. I wasn't aware until I read the script that Michaela might have ulterior motives. And that was a, that was a bit of a devastating thing. the betrayal the betrayal angry he is he's genuinely mad now we're not talking shalom anymore well i think it's especially interesting in the context of Chris, your character being in Atreides because...
I don't know. I mean, I know that like Dune is well known for having complex characters and there's a lot of nuance around sort of like goodness or badness. But I feel like to a certain extent, the Atreides are like they do what's right.
And so it's interesting to see your character sort of like, you know, you think he's just going to be like a straightforward, you know, weapons master or whatever, but then it turns out that he has, and I think he still believes what he's doing is right, but it's just a little more complicated than that, you know?
Yeah, very complicated. I think he believes in fighting the good fight. And I think that's something we can draw a parallel to later Atreides and stuff. But this episode especially, I think he realizes how... everyone you know there's a kind of a theme of people being steps ahead throughout this show everyone thinking that they're steps ahead and kieran
Kind of realizes he's actually a fair few steps behind in this moment. And he believes what he's doing is right, but something is nagging at him. Sarah, let's talk about your character. At the beginning of this episode, she is very upset with her father. She's trying to make sense of Desmond Hart. What do you think is going through her head? Why does she think her father is siding with Desmond Hart? Well, I think she just...
She thinks that he's become so enamored with this person and the way he does things. You know, he feels powerful, you know, having someone who, by his side, that people fear all of a sudden, you know. And I think for Ines, seeing her father change to the point where she doesn't recognize him anymore because of this person is... Very upsetting to her. All of a sudden, you know, all of her plans have been torn apart for her future. She's lost Kasia. A child has been murdered.
everyone in her family seems to not really care about it. So for her, she's realizing all of this in this episode. And I think her beliefs just become... They just become more and more strong throughout the episode that what she feels is right is not what her parents are doing, her family are doing at the moment. And the fact that they're willing to lie to show a united front, it's just...
the opposite of what she believes in. So she's really eager to do something about it. But in the beginning of the episode, she doesn't know how, when and what, in a way. Yeah, I think it's the conversation with Kieran that forms the idea of confronting her father at the Lancelot. You know what's funny? You could have been the one trapped in a palace instead of me.
Maureen Atreides was offered the throne and rejected it. Maybe he saw what would come of the freedoms he fought for. Look around. We defeated the machines, but we replaced one set of overlords with another. Yet here you are, partaking. Righteous but not pure My father is a good man I'm just...
imagining Shalom's character in the corner. She's just looking like... I couldn't actually hear the glare that I give. I give good glare in that moment. Amazing glare. I could almost hear it. I could almost hear it. Yeah. As we were saying earlier, I was so shocked when you two were so friendly to each other because you guys really gave off the vibe that you do not like each other in that show. So let's talk about that dynamic, the little trio, this trio that's, you know, kind of really...
a lot of their scenes are together here they're seeing each other in public you know they're having to act in the club in the club and they have to you know play a lot of different roles you know Kiran is playing one role to the rebellion and another role to what his day job is. Nez is coming in and causing a whole bunch of chaos for everybody. So let's talk a little bit about that, like kind of how you guys thought about what everyone thinks.
about everyone else. Yeah. And I remember, I think that was the hardest scene actually, was that first episode when we first meet Michaela. That for me was the hardest scene to pitch. We talk about that look between Sarah, Sophie and I. But it was so important because I really didn't want it to play as jealousy towards Atreides, which I really think it can easily be mistaken for. And then I thought, actually, if it does play as jealousy...
That almost works too, because people are going to think, oh, maybe there's something going on between them and she's jealous. But yeah, it adds to the mystery of you just really don't know what's going on with this woman. She just seems like the simple barmaid. And then episode two happens and it's like, what? Surprise!
I wish I screamed surprise as I pull the cloak off. But yeah, that's just a watchful eye, always keeping an eye on him. And I think, yeah, just not wanting him to get distracted with the plan because it's... It's a variable I don't think she had foreseen coming, which she should have.
I mean, these two hot people together training all the time. Yes. Both single. How did I not know that was going to happen? Yeah. It's a very silly misstep. Well, I feel like also in the scene, it's the most we see, at least have seen so far, of Kieran expressing. his frustrations with the Imperium to Inez. Do you think that's a fair assessment? Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's quite a sad scene for Kieran because I feel like, you know...
The scene before this, he's really, you know, he's committing to one cause and he's sitting there with Horace and he's having this conversation and it's like, all right. You've got to get your hands dirty to do the right thing and he's committed to it. And the last person he wants to see is the princess. He kind of wants all this to happen and hopefully the princess be away and not be there and survive.
That's kind of his main thing. So when she turns up, it's this kind of, he sees it maybe as the last chance to, if she can be a key player in this, if she can do something that I don't have to do, if she can get to him first, maybe.
maybe there's a chance that something can change from that way and we i don't have to go through with this kind of heinous act and i think the only way he can do that is opening up and i think he is he is a guy who's very true to his beliefs and his heart and i think he sees something in inez that is similar in terms of they
both have kind of a true heart in terms of what they believe is the right thing. And I think this is the scene where he takes a chance on putting it in her lap of like, hey, you've got the power to maybe do something here. Sarah, Sophie, Chris, do you think the characters love each other? Do you think that's where they're at? What do you think is the status of the feelings for each other? Define the relationship. I think it evolves from being like a...
you know, a physical relationship to something I think in four that blossoms and can evolve to love maybe. Yeah, I think they're both surprised by the fact that the connection is deeper than... what they first thought it might be yeah and i think you know a lot of things play into that it's it's the events that are happening around them make them their kind of thoughts maybe align in a way and they see each other as a
a safe space for certain things but also dangerous waters you know yeah yeah i think finesse also because you know the the more she's pushed away from her family you know and the more she's At that moment, he's there and she starts opening up and I think she's surprised by how that feels, that it feels good to open up to him.
Something we have to talk about, which is like a little bit of a pivot, but is the Atreides name and the Atreides family. It's just so important to the world. And it's so important to, you know. Like the Harkonnen plot as well, like the Harkonnens are really, they are really paying attention to you. What is like everyone's viewpoint of the Atreides? How does Kirin see his own name? And then how do your two characters, Sarah Sophie and Shalom, how do they see the Atreides? What is their relation?
to it? Like, do they value the Atreides name? Like, does it still have that value? Yeah, you know, obviously, I think Vorian Atreides, this great war hero, part of, you know, one of the reasons that they managed to defeat the machines. So he knows his name. is good. And I think people look to it as a good thing. You know, he's inherited some sort of respect from that, but I think he's also inherited like a trauma.
Albert, his dad, you know, who managed to survive the atrocities that happened from Tula Harkonnen. And I think he's been raised with that, knowing that story, you know, that was his bedtime story, if you like, was this is... you know, this is what happened to our family. So, you know, the Harkin and Atreides dynamic is from both sides. There's a sense of injustice.
I think Kieran's sense of injustice is one of the big things that's got him into the rebellion. You know, it's like, I want to help the people who, you know, who need help because I, my family have suffered before and he in turn can use his name. that people know and respect to get himself into the position of swordmaster. I think he's a proud Atreides, but I think he also has an ambition to kind of redefine Atreides as they are right now.
Sarah-Sophie, how does your character perceive of the tradies? Well, I think, you know, she's had all the stories about the family and I think she thinks it's really cool that her trainer is in it. It's like kind of meeting someone that's famous, I think. I think she finds that cool and attractive and then, you know, it's like, oh, it's an Atreides. Shalom, I would love to talk a little more about Michaela because it's, I mean, she is.
playing this double agent role, right? She is a sister, though she is also part of the rebellion. The rebels don't know she's a sister. She's reporting back about what's going on. Yeah. At this point in the season... What do you think is the state of her faith and her allegiance to the sisterhood? Like, it seems like she is still...
happy, well, maybe not happy to, but like game to do what she's told. Is that fair, you think? Yeah, I think that is fair. And it's the complex thing about Michaela because... She is Fremen, and from what we know of the Fremen people, they're incredibly close-knit and incredibly loyal to their own. And so her being a part of the sisterhood, full stop, is strange.
and is incredibly unique. And so the fact that this rebellion is essentially to kind of... allow her people more power and more freedom of course she's going to be empathetic towards it I think naturally you would you know but she has to believe that the sisterhood's plans are greater and more important and will be good for everybody.
I think she has to keep believing that. But definitely as we go along and we see more and more of the sisterhood is, is it sisterhood above all or is it value above all? Let's have that conversation. And I think that's what's going on.
on in her head is like wait a second are we supposed to assume that this person really has the perfect perspective of what what the world should look like and isn't you know that there aren't other things so yeah I think the question of The doubt, the seed of doubt is definitely, I think, I actually do think it is planted in episode two almost when she basically suggests that she might burn the whole cell.
All this work that Michaela has done to set this rebellion up and be at the heart of it. And also, it's not just the fact that she's... she's orchestrating this rebellion, it's the fact that she's keeping it simmering at just the right amount of rebellion, you know, so that it's useful for Valia. So I think the idea that she wants to blow up this whole plan, yeah, it's...
It's difficult for her, I think. Yeah. Okay, let's dive into this rebel plot a little bit more. Let's listen to some of Kieran Atreides' conversation with Michaela about him. You, um, you sure you're up for this? You seem a little bit spooked. I don't need to convince you. No. But you should probably convince yourself. Making the Imperium better comes at a cost. You ready to pay it? Are you? You're so two-faced in that scene. Dude!
you know you're saving my head up on a platter for for valia you know and that's like you know but you're also playing on kieran's insecurities and and kind of romantic side you know is true heart I don't think people really realize how nasty you are in that scene. I think I'm only just realizing it now seeing it. It's like, wow. It's so savage. He's trying to do the right thing.
I know. And she's literally just given his name. It's just so... Oh, gosh. She's like, are you sure you're ready to do this? she's just manipulating you you know she's always one step ahead baby it's the sisterhood yeah you can try but my read was she's just frustrated with her co-workers she's like can this guy stop sleeping with the people who are trying to like you know it's like thank you
Thank you. She's like, Valia's messing up my stuff. She wants me to burn it. Like, she's just so done with it. She's just like, I just want to do my job. That's how I kind of saw it. Like, let me just do my job. Does he understand how hard it is to start a rebellion? You know? And you're going to throw it all away? I was there. I took the grate off. You know, I was ready to go, okay? You cannot, like, Kieran did everything he could.
So a big part of what it seems like this rebellion is about is the idea of getting spice flowing. How much do you think your characters know about like what... is currently happening with the spice trade at this moment in time during the show. I think our characters know a fair amount of what's happening on the ground to Fremen people.
And I think that's one of the big reasons for the rebellion. So we're obviously getting intel on how people are being treated, what's happening with the spice, where it's being taken from, how it's being mined, how people are, you know, and then obviously...
we've maybe had a hand in people taking over some of the, you know, like with the, when Desmond Hart's trooper taken over by people and, you know, some of it is stolen. I think we've had a hand in that. So I think we were pretty up to date and I feel like.
i mean i always felt like michaela was the the source of a lot of that intel for us right at least that's how it kind of felt with me and me horace and michaela like that kind of little trio she would get us the intel on that side Atreides would use his name to infiltrate from the inside, and Horace was the leader of the rebellion with the big plans.
And there's also saying, you know, like we hear you are partaking in it. It's like we all partake in it, even though we're all hypocrites. We know where most of our things come from. And yet we're all partaking in it because we can't help it. And this rebellion. is really trying to blow that up, trying to completely ruin the order of the way the world works. And so, yeah, I think they believe they're really trying to create freedom and free flow of spice, resources for everybody, not just for...
The select few. That last scene, meaning the final confrontation at the Landsrad, where there's all these conflicting things. Sarah Sophie, your character, thinks Constantine is going to... take the lead on calling out their father. Let's talk a little bit about where everyone is at at the end of that. Well, I think Inez thought that, you know, surely when she confronts her father in front of all these great houses.
He will wake up and put this guy in jail where he belongs. And, you know, he has to do what's right. But then when he, you know, when he turns the whole thing around and talks about the assassination, I think... That is the biggest shock because on her way up to confronting him, she's pretty sure she's, you know, she got this, you know. So I think, I mean, it just turns everything upside down for her.
It ends completely the other, like completely opposite of what she thought going into it. Yeah, I mean, it kind of seems like it's the opposite of what... Pretty much everybody. You know, I mean, it reminds me, Chris, of what you were saying earlier about how, like, everyone thinks they're two steps ahead. But, like, I feel like in this scene, it's very clear that, like, I mean, Desmond is such an agent of chaos that, like, no one could have predicted that, you know?
This scene is like six trains all heading towards the same crossing at the same time. And then one train you didn't even know just comes out of nowhere and takes everyone out. What was it like filming that? Yeah, so it was a fascinating film. Everyone was kind of excited for it. We've seen it on the schedule. It took four days to shoot. We've got a bunch of extras in there. And our director, Richard Lewis, was, I think it's the most prepared I've ever seen anyone.
for anything um he turned up with storyboards like he had every little shot everything and had the schedule mapped out and the crew and everyone it was a really tough four days when you're in the same location doing the same action for four days it can be really like really tough and you know just keep the energy going And obviously Travis and Desmond has that big monologue in the middle where he's, you know, telling so much story and just giving such a great performance.
And kudos to him because he did it four days. He just did that monologue every time with the same energy and gave everyone something to react to. He was fantastic. And Richard and the crew really brought it together. And in terms of Kieran, you see him leave at the end. I don't want to give any spoilers of what's going on, but we don't know how safe Kieran is. Yeah. And Nez also, in that scene, recognizes one of the rebels that she met in the club as well.
which is also a big moment for her because she's like, okay, what's going on here? Can I trust anyone? Where do you think the rebellion stands at this point? i could i mean you could say the rebellion is at least in kieran's mind right back to the drawing board you know i think that was they they spent a lot of time possibly years building up to this plot and for that not to happen and
to be kind of foiled in such a dramatic way. It's definitely back to the drawing board. Yeah, I would also say that I wouldn't underestimate that. Valia Harkonnen might have a plan B and even a plan C and maybe even a plan D. That's very enticing. Yeah. Thank you all for joining us. It was so much fun and we're excited to see the rest of the series. Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you very much.
Next, Ahmed, we are going to play an interview that I got to do with two people who helped create the magic of the Dune Prophecy universe. VFX producer, Taryn Pratt, and VFX supervisor, Michael Enriquez. I'm so excited to hear this. Let's go. Thank you both for being here. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. So to start, we've been asking all of our guests what their relationship to Dune was before they started working on the show. Mike, what about you?
So I've obviously been aware of Dune because I'm a big sci-fi nerd, but I honestly had never read the books up until the Denis film was announced. When I heard that Denis was doing the film, I thought, okay, I'm really going to need to see this film, and I want to have some context. So I picked up the book and couldn't put it down, and couldn't put the next one down, and couldn't put the next one down. So I'm in the middle of God Emperor currently, still trying to...
make my way through all the vast amounts of books. That's impressive. So what about you, Taryn? I'm not quite as impressive as Michael. Mike really dug in. I definitely had a history with it. I remember it. when I was much younger, but I probably didn't see it or hear about it for many, many years. And then when this series was coming around, I had heard about it and I was very interested in
and trying to figure out how to get involved. And fortunately, everything aligned and timing worked out and I was able to jump onto the project. That's awesome. I mean, I just think this has to be... such an exciting project to get to figure out VFX for because there are just so many different elements happening at any given time right? I mean it's kind of a dream come true for me to be honest I mean I'm a big sci-fi nerd I love working on sci-fi.
So the opportunity to come to Dune and actually carry forward something that I've become obsessed with in terms of the recent films, it was pretty amazing. That's really cool. It does seem like this show has... pretty prominent sets happening as opposed to like mostly green screen stuff. Is that a fair assessment? Absolutely. The sets are massive and extensive.
The perfect marriage of production design and visual effects makes everything look so much better. We would prefer to always start with... nice, big, rich sets that we can then add to, you know, obviously we're, we have the ability to
put a character in front of a green screen and build a world. But when you have those design elements, when you have something practical, tangible bits that people can touch and interact with, and then we build upon that, that's... the the best case scenario yeah and and with with the great sets that were built i mean even as as how as grand as large as they are the actual
locations in the story are bigger than what's there. So obviously we need the set that's been built, but then VFX needs to complete every set that's been built to add either the top layer or whatever's further back. So every set in the show just about is a mixture of VFX and practical that, in my opinion, is pretty seamless. It is seamless. It's really cool. One thing that I always had questions about is the space travel of it all because...
Obviously, people are getting around from planet to planet, but we don't spend a lot of time seeing those ships or where they're landing. And that's something that's been really exciting with the TV show because y'all have built that. Yeah, we tried. I mean, we took everything that's canon from Dune and made sure that it's all valid in terms of this area of the timeline. But that's one of the things that I really...
Was happy to be able to be showing more of, you know, I love spaceships. I love sci-fi. It's the opportunity to actually like create something new for this franchise and being 10,000 years separate from the films meant. Well, yes, given that Dune has a technology stagnation, the technology is the same in the world, they still have to look different. They still have to have a slightly different feel. So I think we did a pretty good job in making our ships look kind of antiquated in a way.
but still have that futuristic transportation vibe. Well, that is such a fascinating thing about Dune in general, right? Is that it's... anti-tech, but it's also post-tech, which means it still existed. So there's a feudalism to it, but also it's still obviously so much more advanced than where we are in our human scale. Yeah, it's just weird post-tech.
Like the words everyone kept throwing on and said is antique futurism, which fits very, very well. That's so cool. You need to connect to what people are familiar with. And the reality of the matter is that technology is the same between now and 10,000 years in the future. There have been slight variations, slight improvements in efficiencies, but there hasn't really been a new technology breakthrough. So things still function the same way. So what we try to do is just...
give each thing a little bit of either a rougher feel, a little bit of a precursor feel to where it's going to be, but still working in the same manner. Yeah, I think one of the biggest challenges... for visual effects. In addition to being familiar to the recent features, we also have to remember that these books are
quite, you know, old. So there's a lot of people that have read them over the years that have built this entire world in their head. Over decades. Over decades. That we also have to play into, you know? And so it's a probably it's a massive challenge for us to create something that's unique to our show that fits tonally across the story that Allison is trying to tell, but also fit.
in the idea that other people have created and so that it, you know, we kind of bring that audience along for the ride. I want to get into some specific VFX moments in this episode because there are some very interesting ones, especially... Theodosia, which was one that I did not see coming at all. She shapeshifts from Griffin back into her own body. That's what we see. I have to say, this was one of those scenes where I was like, is this a dream? What is happening?
Who is this person? How did you make this happen? Well, Taryn, do you want to jump into the start? I don't want to start. Okay, no problem. That was so complicated. No problem. Yeah, I think I'll let you take that. So Theo, as has been alluded to in the early episodes, has a special skill, something that she really didn't want to do. she does it for Valia. And it was something that we discussed quite a bit because anytime you're doing any kind of a morph effect visually,
It's just always goofy. It just never really looks right. There's so many reasons why a morph is kind of odd. When you start to think about how hair or wardrobe works, it just doesn't make any sense. So we came up with the idea of an intermediary state between... people so she will morph into kind of a embryonic type state where the skin is translucent you see all the features everything becomes a bit softer and the bones are able to restructure uh and then
She flows into the skin color of the person she's becoming, and it all goes. So it was a... A bit of a difficult process because we weren't even quite sure how much we wanted to show of it initially. There was thoughts of like, oh, let's just keep it in the shadows. Let's keep it a subtle thing. But it became...
too subtle it became really kind of hard to tell what was going on i'm pretty happy with where it ended up um even though i will say i still don't like morph effects i still find it find it odd but the way we were able to lean on the hair falling out and you know before her hair actually was in and the painful effects of how you know
the shape shift would happen. We went through a lot of back and forth of how painful is it? How does, how translucent do they get? Do they, you know, does it become an actual blob in the middle? There was so many weird vibes that a lot of them just became.
too silly a lot of them just became too not grounded not dune well yeah i mean there's the uncanny valley stuff too playing here too right where it's like yeah no it can't be silly like you're trying to convey And you do such a great job, too, of communicating how much pain she is in as she is undergoing this, which also seems like an important element in terms of, like, sure, she has this ability, but, like, at what cost?
Exactly. Yeah, she doesn't want to be doing this, but it puts that much more weight into the fact that she is doing this for Velia. Another scene we have to talk about is Desmond committing a public execution at the High Council where he burns a number of people alive. It was really interesting. We talked to a couple of the actors about what it was like to film that. And I guess it was like a four-day shoot. It sounds very emotionally taxing just for the folks who were there.
But I would love to hear about how you work through a moment like that that is so... VFX heavy and what it actually looks like on set. Yeah, I think that scene was quite complicated because there are so many people involved. I mean, it's a real... dance with the camera work and the number of actors coming in and out of the scene and Desmond interacting with all of them.
causing this pain and this execution across all of them. So logistically, it was rather complicated to set up. And for us, I think there was a good blend between visual effects. and the kind of the practical effects that we had on some of the prosthetics that we had on some of the characters. Not all of them had that, but there were elements that it was like, this would be really nice to have that we can then build upon.
This would be really nice. You mean these blisters? These blisters. Or, you know, there are some veins and whatnot. Of course, the chest. And so we – We also have seen this effect happen at the end of episode one already. And those two executions, I guess, for lack of a better term, in that episode.
had a different feeling to them. And they also, you know, it was more intimate. You were closer in on the characters and you'd already established kind of a relationship with those two characters. But this needed to feel different. Also, because the scene is quite long and you're there with them the whole the whole time. So, you know, we had different versions of I can't remember the the character's name when he when he grabs the. Oh, Lord Hagel.
Lord Hagel, he grabs that wood railing and we actually scorch that railing as if he is so hot from the inside that he's burning that railing. And since we had tracking markers on everyone's skin when the specific burning scenes were shot, We just ran an initial pass. Okay, here's our first idea of the burning progression throughout all the shots, a very rough pass, to see how much we're getting in each shot and then dial it in from there. And when you...
Say the burning progression, you mean like little blister, big blister, oozing blister. Yeah, starting from a little bit of redness and sweat, going into some veins forming, going into blisters forming, going into actual fissures and cracks. Embers, yeah, that whole process, this theme, we had a whole set process and then it was deciding what worked best in each shot. And of course, we had five people that were burning. So for each character, it was a lot of work just to figure out what...
where it wanted to go. But once we understood the stages, I mean, it was really just a matter of polishing up and making it look good. Yeah. And I think the other thing to note there is that we needed to be cognizant. of the level of effects that we were seeing on these characters and understand that they are still moving. So how far can you take it? And that was a discussion throughout production and in post in terms of...
Can they be fully charred and still be moving around? Like the idea is that they are burning from the inside. So at some point. Everything inside is not working anymore if we're finally seeing it on your hands and your arms and your face. So it was delicate balance of don't push it too far because it needs to feel real and people need to understand what's happening here. it needs to feel grotesque and painful. And, you know, you really need to feel it. And I think one really cool example is...
When we melt the gold tooth of one of the prisoners. Jerry, he got so hot that this gold tooth has melted inside his mouth. And with that, if you look closely, you can see that the gums have started. to erode a little bit and a char on the inside of the mouth and all these little fine details, which for the most part, you probably don't even realize.
But all put together, you know, especially if you watch it, you know, a second viewing, you will pick up on some of these finer details. I am so stressed out right now.
Yeah, it's a pretty disgusting thing to think about. And especially when you have to... I think that the Pruitt scene for me was the most difficult because, I mean, it's a... child and this is the first episode and we're you know you've got bits of embers that are floating off of him and steam and and same thing with all of these other characters as well it's
It's a difficult thing to watch, even though, you know, you've created it. This isn't real, but it's still, you know. And I think that that tells you that you've kind of hit it. Yeah, exactly. What a weird signifier of success. When I'm disturbed, I know we hit it. Weird. I wish I could ask you this question regarding all six episodes, but restraining to the first four, since that is what we have seen, I would love to know what effect you're proudest of at this point.
I mean, look, it's a little bit hard to pick favorites because there's so many components, but I'm always partial to the Arrakis worm setup that we've done, and especially... Desmond's brief mind's eye vision that we see in episode four during the burning, where we're actually seeing it from his perspective, that was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun to do, a lot of fun to come up with.
Saw it in the hologram in episode one, but it was via a hologram. Finally being able to see it through Desmond's eyes as it actually was to me is... It was a lot of fun to pull off. Taryn, anything else? Yeah, no, I think, like you said, it's really hard to pick favorites, especially when you're proud of so much of the work that has gone into those episodes. And the shot count is staggering. Yeah, I imagine that's also...
part of it is like, well, I'm sort of sick of looking at all of these things, but I'm happy with how they turned out, right? Exactly. I think there's a little bit of that. You've seen it so many times. When you get to version 127, yeah. Totally. And you lose perspective on it and like, is this...
still interesting like i've seen it so many times but somebody coming to a fresh is this really going to be interesting yeah and and to kind of uh build upon what mike was saying about the arrakis and and the worm i think what was really cool in episode one was that it was a combination of Arrakis and this worm that we're already familiar with. And I think that the audience was really waiting for, right? Yeah, it's canon. And there's payoff in the first episode. But the cool thing about...
The sequence where we see it in the first episode, within the first few minutes of the episode, is that it kind of melded together. the Arrakis environment with our sisterhood complex. And the sisterhood does not exist on Arrakis. It's on Wallach 9. So we took that. And because it was a dream in which we saw it, we were able to have some artistic license there and take that sisterhood complex that we had built for Wallach 9.
put it into the Rackus environment, make it out of sand and see it tumble as the worm comes to swallow it up. I think that was a really cool sequence. And that was a combination that the shot work was done by Image Engine and the original. Sisterhood Complex was built by important looking pirates. That's awesome. Y'all have such cool jobs. This was so much fun talking to you. Thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for having us.
That's all for this week. We will be back next Sunday night with more special guests to break down the fifth episode of Dune Prophecy, which you can watch on HBO or stream exclusively on Max. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you like what you are hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. And find us on the Dune Prophecy social media handles.
The official Dune Prophecy podcast is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. I'm Ahmad Ali Akbar. And I'm Greta Johnson. Our executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabrielle Lewis, Jayanne Berry, and Barry Finkel. Our lead engineer for the show is Hannes Brown. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. Pineapple's
Senior audio engineers are Marina Pais and Pedro Alvira. This episode is mixed by Hannes Brown. This episode was edited by Darby Baloney, and our producers are Ben Goldberg and Melissa Akiko-Slaughter. Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Alison Cohen, and Aaron Kelly from the Max Podcast team. Thanks for listening. See you next week. I would never use the truth against you. I suspect there are others that would.