On this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, we talked with Leonard Dow about diversity and inclusion. You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling. And now here are your hosts, Joel DeMott and Andy Lee. Oh my goodness, Andy. How you doing? It's Sunday. It's Sunday. Sunday Sunday Sunday. I'm doing good. I'm so glad.
glad. Hello friends. Welcome to the Dudes and Dads pop pop. I keep saying that Dudes and Dads podcast. Glad to have each and every one of you here. And whether you've ended up here on purpose or by sheer accident or some strange algorithmic variant, we're glad to have you. We are. We are super glad to have you. Andy, tell me what's what's going on in your world, man. It was a long weekend. We did a lot of stuff around the house, but a lot of good
stuff. Okay. And I want to know what you tell me. Just tell me. I just mean, I need a little, I'm about ready to say just a little hint of the favorite activity that you were, I'm going to say forced into. I'm going to say I had to clean out some of my sewer. So that was not, yes, you've not become a real homeowner until you've had, either directly or indirectly have some sort of sewer issue. Are things, are things looking up? They're getting there. Okay. I'm clean back up though from I'm clean.
Thank you so much for getting yourself together before you came in to the studio. Yes. Well, that's that's I'm so glad to hear that. Let's see. What have I been up to, Andy? Thank you for asking. I'm such a bad co-host. No, well, got a chance to man, I've been an itinerant preacher here recently. Nice, Andy. So got to. Yeah, I got to share a message at Shore Church in beautiful Ship Shawana, Indiana today. Let me just tell you, Andy, I'm a little bit salty
about Ship Shawana. Oh, yeah. They have friends wherever you're listening, you know about the Dollar General phenomenon, right? Like these things are these things are popping up everywhere. They're all over the place. But today of all places in Ship Shawana, Indiana. They have a Dollar General Market. What? Market. Explain. It's E. I don't, I don't know. I'm gonna walk in sometime and check it out, but it's clearly,
it's clearly snazzier than the standard dollar general. The outside looks a little bit, it's like a little bit brighter, a little bit fresher. So there's some sort of market thing going on in the dollar general in, in Shep Shawanna. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna do some research. I'm gonna report back. Sweet. I'm looking forward to it. Good. Good. Good. Good. Well, hey, Andy, You know, we are so grateful for the many people that support us.
But specifically, we want to say thanks to our friends at Everonce Financial. Support for the show comes from Everonce Financial, helping members invest in what lasts through financial services with impact. More at everonce.com/machiana. Securities offered through Concourse Financial Group, Securities Incorporated member FINRA, SIPC. Awesome. Well, today, as I alluded to in the intro, So we have Leonard Dow with us from Everince. Leonard, welcome to the show. It's good to be here.
It's good to be here. Thank you. And Leonard is reporting from his son's dorm room, which for our live viewers, we just wanted to clarify because it looks like Leonard has been banished to some concrete jungle somewhere. Which wouldn't be too far off the truth, but in this case, this is a show for dad. So we've all been sent to the basement at some point. Right. Yes, yes, yes.
Well, Leonard, you serve as the vice president of church and community development of development and president of Everons Community Investment for Everons Financial. And now you are stationed in Philadelphia, but where are you coming to us? Where are you at right now? Yeah, thank you. It's good to be here. So right now I'm in Providence, Rhode Island. My son is entering his freshman year at Johnson and Wells University.
And so my wife and I drove up about five hours from Philly to, you know, you got to get, you got to get the son in and the white and he's our youngest. So, you know, this is a tearful goodbye for my wife. This is our last one out of the house. So thoroughly enjoying it. Thoroughly enjoying. You've successfully launched your people Leonard, which I have to imagine is a rewarding feeling. They've, they've been out. They're not still.
I mean, while it appears that you're living in a basement, they are not. That's right. They are out picking up whatever they got to pick up before we hit them back to Philly tomorrow morning. Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, Leonard, as we always like to do, just to start off to get to know our guests more, then we're going to tip to our way in. We'll get into the deep end of the pool soon enough, right, Andrew? Sure. Right.
Yeah. - Just tell us about yourself about, I guess first of all, we'd love to do the dad stats as we like to say. So tell us about your family. - We already know he has the youngest kid that's in college. - We do, so we've started there. But yeah, tell us about the family. Whatever you wanna share with us, we just wanna get to know you better on that side. - Hey, I'll be honest, this'll be the highlight of my contribution to the podcast, My Family.
So we're blessed with three children, My oldest Carmella, she is living in Philadelphia, an area of the city called West Philly. Born and raised. She works for a... Born and raised, no, it was Mount Airy, but she now, she's now in West Philly. And she works for a trend company out of London and does a lot of trend research around fashion and design. And then our middle one, Marcella, she's up in New York City or where I'm at now and down in New York City at Columbia University.
getting her masters in speech pathology. And then my son, as I mentioned, he's a freshman here at Johnson & Wales. He's gonna be studying something with animals. Not quite sure what. I wasn't in on that decision, but I was in on the debit that came out of the account for the false investor. - Absolutely. (laughing) - And then my lovely wife, Rosalie. She, uh, Rosalie Rolondale, actually doctor Rosalie Rolondale, she teaches at University of Delaware in, um, in the, um,
education department. She now, uh, is in more so than admin side working with the student scholars. Awesome. Um, the last couple of years. So yeah, so I've married up, man. I, you know, I've been blessed and we've been married. Um, it'll be 30, 33 years. I hope I'm right. Cause this is recorded, right? Yeah. Right. Let's sit down the record. You bet. You'll join the many guests, including Andy and myself, who have paused and/or second guest ourselves.
Listen, I have the marriage thing down, but it's always the kids' ages that I mess up. I'm always like, "How old are the kids?" Oh, don't even. Don't even. Don't do it. Don't do that to me. Don't do that to me. So, yeah. So, and we live in Philly, living in Philadelphia, where I grew up my whole life.
There was parts of time where I was in college and other times a year or two, but always a boomerang home, which has been a wonderful challenge as my wife now loves Philly, but she grew up in Puerto Rico. Okay. So, so, so my goal is the bucket list is to retire whenever that comes back home in Albonito, Puerto Rico or close to it in the later years. I like your life goals, man. That's beautiful. (laughing) - Sorry, for the record, I'm not playing it on doing any time. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah.
Well, and we, our family, so I am, though Andy has long, long-term ties back to Philadelphia, where he's spent some significant time, my family's first introduction to Philly was, it's been a year and a half ago, we did not this past spring, but the spring before we did our, our family spring break in Philadelphia. - Well, and let me tell you this, Joel texted me and said, "Where can I get a cheesesteak?" And so I told him where he can go to get cheese steaks. That was the important thing.
- We had the real, 'cause he did it as the deal. I, as a newbie, as an outsider, I didn't want to go to some lame cheese steak place, you know? Although people are like, "Hey, if it's cheese steak in Phil, you're probably doing okay." - Yeah, it's probably okay. - I needed the inside track though. And Andy took us to-- - Now come on now, I gotta know. I gotta know where Andy sent you. - Where did I send you? Did I send you to Ishka Bibles or-- - You just sent us to Ishka Bibles, absolutely.
- Oh wow. - Absolutely. - You went high end. You went a little bit high end. I figured I'd take him down to South Street a little bit. So we had to fight traffic like crazy. My vehicle barely fit through the street, but it was worth it. I'll be honest. That's that's the ability. Next time next time you're in Philly, try a place called De La Sondre. Okay. This is false. Okay. It's another another spot that's off the radar for most non-Fillidopians.
Well, and see like for my, for my, like to save face for me, like I was only in Philadelphia for a year and that was a long time ago. So it was. Yeah, I mean, that's a good spot. Yeah, we didn't. That's a good spot. He didn't steer us wrong. It was, it was good. But we, uh, we got to check another base. We got a Phillies game in. It was there. It was their opener. It was their season at home opener. And we got to see the Philly fanatic parachute into the stadium.
We got to see my children got to see their first fan brawl out in, out in right field. Wow. We were on the other, we were on the other side, but we got a clear view. And the camera men do not hesitate. They're able to zoom right in and get the live up front. And then just to see a homo per experience, it was one, I will say it was one of the best baseball games that we've we've ever seen. So I will say though, I just the Philadelphia fans are there, they're there's something else there.
Yeah, yeah, we we are unfortunately a little bit too intense. I felt it felt intense. It did. It did. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people need to remind Phillies fans that there's like a hundred and what 60 games. Like you don't have to jump off the bridge every after every loss. But that's how we roll. That's how we roll. So we're passionate. That is true. So can you tell me a little bit about what interested you in your current professional role at Everett's?
Yeah. So as Andy would know, because Andy has known my background a little bit, I grew up as I mentioned in Philadelphia, I grew up in an area of the city called North Philly, which was a relatively thriving African-American community up into the mid early '60s, and then especially the early '70s, right around when I was, I don't know, six or eight, our community experienced a lot of stress.
Many of the manufacturing jobs left our community, crack cocaine came into our community, and the stress of that just really, uh crippled our community in such a way where before most of the folks in our community including my father worked within walking distance at one of the factories didn't need a lot of education and this is not just Philadelphia you know this store could be said throughout our country
manufacturing um but uh in our particular community it just uh within a decade it went from um relatively safe, economic stable homeowners for the most part to just what comes with illegal activity, drugs and stress and all those things, schools underfunded, etc. And so you have a couple of chances, a couple opportunities you stay and quote, like a salmon
try to force against the system that you're facing. You can stay, so you can stay or for many people you can flee and most of the community I grew up with, the friends I grew up with, they stayed and unfortunately had just a variety of challenging stories thereafter. My parents, we were in a position because of some brothers at the church that we were going to at the time that we moved. And so we moved out of North Philly into a different area of the city. And
because of that, there's a level of, without over stating it, of the virus guilt. And I don't mean that in a shame way of guilt, but recognizing that many of the friends I hung out with or were incarcerated indoor solid untimely death or some other challenging narrative that their story could have been so different. And yet I feel as though I've had so many gifted opportunities.
And so part of me says, you know, as my parents always told me up until they passed away, forget where you come from, I came from North Philly and so our community that was under stress under siege. And so my life story has been one of trying to not necessarily only North Philly, but communities that are representative of under resource underrepresented communities. How can I make an impact?
And that's been for the most part of my life in the financial sector and banking now in financial services with Everants. even when I was a pastor for 20 years, 'cause I started when I was five, we worked a lot around community engagement, community development, specifically, not just in soup kitchen and stuff like that, which is helpful, right?
People need to eat, but also around, how do we bring about economic stability and strength in a community through a faith-based, in this case, Christian perspective? So yeah, I forgot the question, uh, cause I'm from North, you know, I'm from Philly and I should tell it, we talked downhill, man. You, you know, it's like double Dutch, you know, you guys want double Dutch is double
Dutch jumping. And for those on the podcast that don't know, look it up double Dutch, you know, you got to jump in or, or I'll just keep going. So you also, I see you also serve, uh, you know, as we like to at least sort of stock our guests ahead of time and see what they're into. Yeah. So you serve on some, you serve on some boards and things like that. Again, kind of extending that community engagement.
What tell us about those, tell us about the boards you serve on, why you care about them, what you do. Yeah. Um, I'd be interested in that too. Sure. You wouldn't mind. I, the one part of the question that you did ask me is about my role at Everest and I didn't say anything about that, but then I'll come around and talk about the boards.
So in my role, Vice President of Church and Community Development, that really allows me to work with our pool of professionals called Stewardship Consultants that engage local congregations. We at Everton serve, I would say, up to 35, 36 different denominations in the congregations within those denominations. And we have a pool of professionals we refer to as Stewardship Consultants that help congregations wherever they are in their stewardship journey.
And so I provide some resourcing for them. And then in my role with president of Everants Community Investment, this ties into my work in Philadelphia where Everants, we opened up our first urban location there in Philadelphia area of the city called Kensington along with building our capacity and other financial services.
But ECI is our attempt at having a particular specific fund set aside for LMI, low, moderate income communities, because of a variety of reasons that we don't have one podcast to talk about. But I think I'll touch on that later through some of the questions. And historically, underserved under-resourced communities, access to credit outside of predatory credit options is desperately needed. And so we're working at trying to figure out how we can do that in a sustainable way.
And we were on about a two, two and a half year journey in that role in ECI, everyone's community investment is that lending pool that we work in tandem with our credit union and providing a variety of LMI, what we call impact loans or impact lending tools. This does dovetail quite directly into some of the boards I'm on, the Brooklyn Peace Center, which is up in New York City. I shouldn't have went down and trying to remember stuff.
The city school, which is a faith-based Christian school in the city of Philadelphia, providing options. I'm a firm believer in public school education, as well as private school education, as well as Catholic school education. In an urban setting, people need options, good options. And so I'm part of that.
And then the commonplace is a small nonprofit starting similar to what I did over my time at Oxford Circle Minute Night Church starting a nonprofit that allows them to find out what is already activated and active in a community, but then bringing along some things around faith-focused such as a daycare such as Afterschool programming things like that and so I'm on the board of those three and if I'm on another board that I forgot about Sometimes I can get in trouble and overextending myself
I think you've I think you've named the ones that I that I saw that was I was just interested in and so I You know, and so I really I mean I hear I hear from you that there's kind of a for you personally. And I'm wondering if you, it seems to me that you're kind of your personal mission, what you do, it probably reflects your vision for this.
There really is a multi-layered, kind of multi-pronged approach to, 'cause we were talking about urban renewal, we're talking about, you know, investing in communities. You know, someone who has grown up here in the Midwest, and I was born in Michigan, we live here close to South Bend, Indiana, where it was a similar story. I mean, you've kind of said, yeah, Suda Baker, uh, the, the, the industry that we're here into the sixties and then that all went away.
And then the town really turned, uh, you know, really turned in a completely direction without, uh, without reliable work. Um, you know, uh, I'm a mission again, a Michigan, originally. So the story of Detroit, which is, you know, Detroit's making a comeback. My parents lived in, uh, they lived in Lima, Ohio for a while. And there, there's another, you know, kind of a rust belt extended city of a lot of
industry left that area. I wonder, you know, from your perspective, I'm sure you've seen because when I drive through those places and when I've seen those places, I think to myself, just as a normal like citizen, as normal, you know, whatever I go, how in the world will we ever get back to maybe not the good old days, but how will we see maybe a new future for these places? How will, is it even possible?
Or maybe, and the thing is, is that I don't even know about, I do know, because I follow some of the things that have happened in Detroit, specifically, when they're trying to get back on online and improve some things. What have you seen that's working in these communities? Because man, if you just walk through some of them and you kind of see the de-urbanization and you see blight and all of those sort of things, it can feel kind of like a monumental task, I think.
Sure. No, no, I mean, everything you said, I've either engaged in conversations or being a pastor in an urban setting. Even now, with our location and challenging community, parts of the community, not all, but parts of the community of Kensington due to the opioid crisis being played out there and parts of that area of Kensington. In fact, what you said reminded me of a conversation. I was about a year into my role here at Ever since and I was in one of those mid Western states.
You know, once you give me West of Pittsburgh, I put them all in one big, no, I don't, but I think I was in Iowa to be honest. I think it was Iowa, but the gentleman, he wasn't as well-versed in languages. you are, I don't think, or as culturally sensitive. He basically just came up to me and said, "Hey, Leonard, I know you. I kept up with you. I love what you were doing at Oxford Circle. So glad you're at Everons." But he said, "You know what?
I was in Chicago in whatever years he was there in Chicago. He was maybe in the '70s. And now when I go back and I see that community, I need to understand why he pointed it more directly at race. He said, Leonard, why can't you why can't you as if I live in Chicago, but why can't you or your people have good communities or quality communities? I mean, he does. He just, I mean, it went, it went from him patting on my back to him kicking my butt. Like it was so quick.
It was so quick and embarrassingly because again, you don't know me well, but you know that I can put a lot of words together in my brief conversation. He caught me off guard. I didn't have an answer. And I had a little bit of, had a lot of shame that initially came on as if I'm carrying like, you know, you know, as in my Christian faith, Jesus died on the cross here. I'm trying to carry. I'm trying to carry it.
Yeah. But what he happened to be a white brother, and what he was trying to get at is what you were stating in a very appropriate question, in a very broad sense. And I said, you know what, I need to figure that out, at least to the level that I can have some comfort and engage in conversations like this. So one of the things I would say, before we start trying to figure out what we're gonna do, how we're gonna fix it, I think there's gotta be greater analysis on how we got there.
You know, the community that I grew up in, North Philly, there in Detroit and other places, you know, that you mentioned, my brother, there's not an analysis of how we got there. So when we look at urban communities, we have to understand in a predominantly black and brown parts of the urban communities that are really stressed, depending on what part of, you know, what city you're talking about, we have to kind of do a quick study of how did we get there?
Because there's been some intentional ways that the communities that are stressed and are struggling are doing that because that's how they were designed to do, from my perspective. So when we look at our history of redlining, and we understand that redlining was part of our nation's infusion of cash, of investment after the Great Depression, as a way to Strengthen that the new deal came about and mortgages came about in middle class.
Actually, it worked to some extent, even those who say that was a terrible idea. Many benefited from being able to build these mortgages and build their wealth. But part of the dark side of that or the shadow side of that, in order to do that, they created a alphabet soup of ABCD where red was on a bottom and said these communities are non-desirable, and investment should not happen in these communities.
And as a result, they were redlined, literally, as both of you are probably aware. Well, if you look on a redline map of 1920 or 1930, and you look at the communities that are struggling today, there's a direct correlation. They're still under resourced. There still are the places where underfunded school. There's still food deserts, etc. So there's pockets within that redlining like the block or two that I grew up on in North Philly before the manufacturing jobs
moved out. And then you look at World War II and you look at the GI bill again, major cash infusion for those who served. But people like my father who served in the Korean War could not get access to those same funds for a mortgage for a undergrad degree as well. And there's a variety of reasons why. So I know for some in our current context, looking back is only allowed if we can look back on those things we want to celebrate. I recognize that.
But we also have to recognize what we're in in some of our communities. They're actually designed And it, for that to be the type of community that it is. Now, once you go back and take a look, you then need to begin asking questions around, okay, how do we strengthen what is here? How do we sit and engage with those who are suffering, who are struggling, and how do we look at investment for the long haul? It took us so many years to get here.
It's gonna take us a few decades for some of these communities to move out. I can get more specific if you want, But I think I've talked way too long on that one question. - No, that's good. Yeah, that's good. And Leonard, I'm gonna, I guess we'll use the term devil's advocate. I'm never sure that's the right. - Oh please, I love the word. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, because when you use, there's a big pushback in certain spheres.
And we would know this within our church communities as well, there's a big pushback. Anytime we're talking about anything that's systemic, right? like a claim of any systemic ongoing systemic thing. - Yeah. - 'Cause they'll say, well, okay, we're not redlining now. There are no policies of redlining. You know, like I've heard that. I've heard people say that.
And maybe what I would just like to hear from you on is to say, 'cause there's a general sense of, we don't have these exact policies in place anymore. So there's no excuses for XYZ community or XYZ people group to still be in the situation that they are when they have new opportunities now. Now it's a new day, we're in the 21st century. There's new opportunities, new social awarenesses. So everybody just needs to quit whining and just step up to the plate and live their best life. What?
And again, that's a broad brushstroke and probably someone who is listening is like, You did not nuance it appropriately. (laughing) But I'm hopefully, you hear me when I'm saying what I'm getting at. - Oh, I hear, oh, I hear. - What? Now, here's the deal. I think we can respond to that question a number of ways. Some that are not helpful and that just kind of continue the antagonism, so to speak, in that conversation.
And then there are others that I think, faithfully help bring people along to understand, which my sense is that's the conversation that you wanna have, that's where you come from. But what would the response be? to this devil advocacy that I've thrown out here. - No, I appreciate, I don't know the devil advocacy part, but I appreciate the pushback. That's the language I use, the pushback. (laughs) I'm a pushback. I'm 59 years old.
In my lifetime, the civil rights bill, voter rights, and I forget the third one, happened during the '60s. So in my lifetime, so 59 years, up until that point, all the things that we were just talking about was legal. So in one lifetime, we now have laws that does say redlining is illegal. But in my lifetime, it is very difficult to build wealth that some people groups have
had generations to build. We need time. Now, there are some of us, myself included, who have had opportunities and we've taken advantage of those opportunities, you know, but overall, when we look at the poverty rates and we look at the wealth gap and all those type of things, there's only been one generation that has not been legal to use race as a barometer for my access to what other people groups in the majority culture have had for four, five, six, seven generations.
I was out in Kansas, again, with my work in Everinson, was talking about the Homestead Act, which occurred immediately after Emancipation Proclamation, and just talking about how the the Homestead Act was offered for those who wanted to go west to stake land and not only just not just land but they then got the rights to the land but they also got education and all those things associated with it so that they could build and work the land.
At the same time post emancipation proclamation African American population was given a bank which is the most tremendous irony when you don't have resources, because at one point you're a property. Now you're being told to produce, pull yourself up by your own bootstrap. We were given a bank. We were not allowed access to the Homestead Act, nor some of the other cash infusions from the government.
So what I'm trying to have people understand is, is create awareness as to how our communities have gotten to where they are. And when we have had successful communities, places such as Tulsa, places in Florida, we have the red summer in which whole communities that were thriving, despite all the challenges that I just talked about, they were destroyed. So, you know, so I'm not here to pull on anyone's
heartstrings? No. I'm here to make people aware so that when they start engaging around what can we do, they understand that some of the roots of in the challenges are deep. So the conversation has to be deep. Our prayers have to be deep. And our resolve has to be deep. You know, it's not, It's not, it's not, it's not going to be a good, a feel good, um, you know, emotional high.
It's, you know, the journey, you know, within the end of Baptist tradition, um, you know, there's a song, the journey, the journey is long. Yeah. And, and, and so, you know, in my lifetime, I recognize some of the things I want to see happen in communities that I grew up with, uh, having a restart, a rebirth, um, you know, may not happen, but I still have to do the work. - Mm-hmm, yeah. - And I do it joyfully. I would say I do it singing, but this brother can't sing.
This brother, this brother cannot, cannot sing. (laughing) - Well, and you know, gosh, within our Anabaptist communities, that could be a challenge. You can be outed quickly. - I know. (laughing) - You can be outed quickly. I was, no, so the congregation, congregation I was preaching today, they mostly more, more contemporary songs, but they, they, they put a, they put a hymn in there and I got to say, boy, oh boy, threw me for, through me for
a loop. I was, I was unprepared and my, my poor voice was even more magnified when that happened. Everybody goes like, go, go, go to four part harmony and I'm like, oh, I cannot keep up. Oh, here we go. That's what you just raise your hands. Yes, just have one with the word. Can I just put one more caveat there?
I mean, one observation that could also be helpful is I think within our world view at times we've fallen into this false narrative and it's in the book The Sum of Us of a zero sum game where our historical narrative has placed us in this uncomfortable position at times to believe the lie, I think it's a lie, that in order for one particular group to thrive, another group has to suffer.
You know, so, so, so, so when I look back at the GI Bill, when I look back at the New Deal, when I look back at the Homestead Act and our inability to get access, I say those Those were situations that if there was a broader understanding, at least as a Relatial African American perspective of saying, we can all thrive. There is enough, right? From a fake base, scarcity versus abundance, right? In no way am I asking for more. We're just asking for equitable access.
And so I think a point forward would be, how can we move away from this false narrative that says, you know what, if my community, wherever you are, you know, in order for us to thrive, that means that side of that city or that side of my community can't have. Because it not only affects them, the other, whoever the other is, but it affects you.
I mean, you think about innovation, for instance, you know, perhaps, perhaps a person who could have had to cure for cancer with someone in a housing project who had an IQ but did not get quality education resources so they never got access to universities that could have created something that could have been a healing ointment, you know.
I, you know, I think about our public, our public tool system that used to be the envy of the world up until 1950, but when desegregation came, there was this notion that said, well, if we have to share with them, we'll just put dirt in it and close it. That's a zero-sum mindset.
And I think for some of us, we still carry that notion that says, well, if the Black and Browning communities achieve, that means it's going to be something taken from, no, No, in my history, in my example of history over the African American population that I represent, we haven't wanted to take anything, we just want to be part, you know, the understanding of DEI is, diversity is diversity, equity, inclusion, you know, diversity is being invited to the dance,
you know, this is my analogy, you're not going to get this at a PhD level, you know, You know, you know, diversity is being invited to the dance, you know, equity is being invited to dance at the dance, inclusion is participating in the planning, you know, is saying, hey, can we have a say what songs we're going to play? Can we talk about the venue, you know, together about that possibility, but it's not just
taken away. And I think, you know, that's part of the as people of faith, my understanding, that's where, you know, of all the things that the Bible talks about, as far as us being ministers of is not the minister is not to be in a ministry of music, though that's important, the ministry of preaching, though that's important, the ministry of even community, loving your neighbor,
but the miniature reconciliation. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the one that, that's the one that we're still called to be and the one that we're most at times seemingly afraid to engage in. You know, Leonard, as you mentioned, I, it's a within the communities that, that I have, I have seen in some of the places that I,
that I have been in. And this is, you know, and I'll just, and I'll say this is not a new thing to our listeners, you know, coming predominantly from, you know, Evan, you know, white evangelical circles, you know, I do live in North Central India. Don't mess up, brother. Don't mess up. Yeah. Well, you know, here we go. Here we go. Stop a Mandy. Stop. This, uh, the conversation around, because you've touched on it, I think it's a great
segue, the conversation around diversity, equity, inclusion. Now, this is a, uh, for some people in the circles within which I interact, this is code language for undesirable, undesirable, uh, activities, right? Um, and, and I think, and I think what for some, for some who who are not saying, listen, I man, keep keep those people there. We'll keep we'll stay here. Like who are not coming from that perspective, not coming from a zero. Yeah,
they're not coming from the zero. Yeah, they're coming from zero some. There is still a there is a concern or a worry around. I think, okay, when we talk about diversity, well, to what end to what end? What is the goal? When we talk about equity, to what end? What is the... What would we say? Because these are all diversity, equity, inclusion. All three words that like, "Yeah, should we be diverse?" "Yes, absolutely. Should there be equity?" "Yes, should we be including
people?" "Yes." No one argues those things, but when the rubber meets the road and we get deeper into it, and who's interpreting those things and applying those things in the workplace, in the, in civic life, whatever. That's where, like, that's where the fighting begins. Those are, those can become fighting words and those, those sort of things.
And I love, I still love how you've kind of, you've outlined in the great dance metaphor, which I've heard recently and it's been honestly, honestly helpful to me because the moment, in some circles that I'm in the moment, the moment diversity comes out of my lips. Yeah, oh my, get ready. We're a peaceful people until then. - Until then, yeah. - Yeah. - Until then. - Until then. - Help me understand, Leonard.
I mean, from your perspective and the work that you've done, when I ask those questions, diversity, equity, inclusion, to what end, how do we know if we're doing this in a way that's not a zero sum? Because I think it absolutely ties back what you said, there is a fear that one of us is going to get the short end of the stick and I'll be doggone if it's going to be me. So, you know, so let's, let's start the fight. What's your hope for those things? So I, yeah, I mean, so I would put it in,
I don't know if there are three, they're not three silos. I think they interact, but I'll just talk about it at least in three, three vignettes. Maybe that's the best word. you know, so first is for my as a person of faith in Jesus Christ, there's this understanding of diversity early on, you know, if we understand the Genesis story that we're all created in the image of God. You know, it sounds like it sounds like a rather like duh, but I think at times we forget that, you know, and if we
all are creating an image of God. They're therefore then within all our cultural diversity within wherever it is, wherever we're at is a gift. Right? It's not a, it's not a, you know, if we were all creating an image of God and we're all in a in a modern lithic
gathering, then the kingdom of God is in present. The full kingdom of God is in present. And that's a hard narrative for us to, we like to think of it as a kumbaya, but it's very difficult for you to think about it in the context of how we worship where we work where we live but as a Christian I I affirm that and I hold on to that when when yeah I see value in that and when I pastored I was blessed to have that divert does it present challenges yes but brother and anybody that's been in
ministry, it could be a monolithic group and church is a challenge. So not like, it's not like diversity is a challenge that, you know, just, you know, you put a family that you put two families together and you got issues. Yes. Yeah. You know, so, so that's one. So, so as people, and then you look at the biblical narrative from Genesis one, you know, I mean, you know, and then you go to Luke four, Jesus said, you know, the spirit of God is on me to preach good news.
And he goes through all the type of people that many of us wouldn't want around the table. Yeah. The poor, the incarcerated, those, those with disability, all those. But he says, that's who I've come for. So, so, so as a Christian and as an Anabaptist, I, you know, Jesus's words is a higher than the rest of the canon, but Jesus's words are very important.
So if that if they're important to Christ and we many scholars say that's his coming out statement Luke 4 18 and 19 I take it very seriously is A diverse group of people and then you look at Acts 2 You know we celebrate Pentecost and there in Acts 2 I can't remember the exact verses But he talks about everybody who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved Everybody yeah, no everybody Everybody everybody So there's this open call, Jew and Gentile, which would have been even a bigger chasm
than what we struggle with here in our, you know, in our great experiment that we call the US. Everybody calls in the Lord will be saved. And so for me, I'm trying to see and engage with people, everybody. Not because I like it, not because it's a political thing to do, not because somebody else has told me to do. But when I look at the biblical narrative, there seems to be a clear and calm. And then lastly, you know, the one that's often most used is Revelation
seven nine, which I enjoy using it. But then for some folk, they say, well, then in heaven, I'm going to, you know, I can deal with people, you know, and all that. Well, as I used to say at Oxford Circle, this is a dress rehearsal people. Yeah. Yeah. If you hate me here, what What makes you think you're gonna love me later? 100%. Right. That's right. I don't get that. I don't get that. Yeah. So, so, so, so that's the one vignette. That's going to be the longest one.
There's a civic competency vignette. I know there in the Midwest and parts of your listeners, there isn't, at least as it relates to race or, or, um, um, you know, one's ethnic background, you know, a great diversity. And people hear what I'll say here in a moment as a threat.
It is not a threat, but as we become more diverse as a nation, it's just civic competency for us to become greater aware of the differences so that we can interact in a way that allows us to build relationships instead of build walls. I mean, it's just from a civic possibility.
ones holidays, knowing one's favorite foods, knowing one's allergies, knowing one's, you know, it's just as a neighbor, wherever I live, I want to know how I can interact with my neighbors, especially when my kids, you know, we're growing up. So there's a civic competency. And again, it's not a threat. I think it's a great, I think is how, you know, the great experiment as, as a population
continues to become more and more diverse. For me, it just seems to make sense to grow your civic competency by opening the door and saying, hello, neighbor, how are you? What makes you tick? What is this dead, this dead podcast, you know, your listeners come from a diverse group of, you know, background, social economic and all those type of things. But the commonality often I would assume is that their fathers.
Yeah. And there's a common narrative being a father as an African American, as a white American, as an Asian American that can we can find common language and some synergy around and probably play some pickleball because I'm a pickleball fanatic. You got to invite me back to talk about pickleball. Oh boy. Oh boy. He's bug. He's bug. Oh. I'm a big and then the third been yet because I could easily distract it. And this is more from a business model. It's economic viability of your organization.
My daughter works in trend research. It's an international company, but she does trend research in the fashion side of things. And and the fact is companies that want to thrive in the future are companies that recognize that if everyone around the table who makes decisions come from the same community, drink the same water, went to the same schools and the list goes on and on, the chances of them being able to get a market share greater than that particular community is very small.
So they have to go outside in order to bring in someone with a fresh look, with a fresh face, with a fresh idea that's somewhat different. It's not a, it's not a, it's not a, what do you call it? It's not a taken away. It's expanding because in a scarcity mindset that says, that's taken somebody's job. And a growth mindset is saying the world is bigger than what we have made it up into this point. Let's find out how we can be of a value and a resource in that particular community.
So this idea of economic viability, you know, think about it when I was growing up and the Hispanic community in the choices as it relates to restaurants towards zero. None. But now as that population has wonderfully, they always been in our communities, but as they've as they have grown and probably some have now been around some of those decision tables, conversations, you know, we have, we have the menus are vast. And the food is great.
Yeah. Well, you know, for us here in, here in Goshen, I mean, we were, you know, our kids are all my kids are in public schools. You know, my children are the, are the minority here with 57% Latino population within our school system. And I just have to say, there is, there's just, I've experienced it as a real richness and a
real richness to our community. It's an addition to our community that, you know, is, well, if I'm honest with you, like, particularly the family structures and the family commitments within those communities are, I mean, we have something deep to learn from that. I mean, like really, really deep to learn from. And then on top of that, Andy and I can go get some of the best Mexican at any point. Yeah. The question is, is like, which one are we going to go to today? Right. That's the peace.
And that's a non-threatening conversation to have sometimes is around food. Yep. We do not hesitate to live in communities of diversity around food choices Because we recognize no matter how good our food is, there's a desire to be curious to taste, to taste and see what God, how, you know, think about rice. Oh, my goodness. Rice in so many different, you know what? In the African American community, I grew up in rice. You just put a lot of gravy on it and it was very bland.
And then I married, I married a beautiful Puerto Rican woman. Oh my goodness. I'm like, what is this? Is this kind of right? Yeah. Is this manna? Yeah, that's right. You know, we've been married 33 years and just last night she made some rice and bean, rice and chicken with some beans in it. And I just gave her a hug and I was like, oh, this is OK. She goes, letter, you've been eating this for 30 some years. I'm like, honey, you don't understand. I didn't grow up with this.
Yes. But but we embrace the food, but we don't want to deal with the people who cook it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't want to live in our community. Yeah. That's a zero some mindset. And I believe God, you know, I believe education can work up into a certain point, but it also takes some heart. Yes. Changing. It also takes some you too can have conversations with your community that looks like you that I can't. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where it starts.
And the last thing I not last thing, but I just want to echo part of the journey towards the challenges and urban settings, part of the journey towards embracing or at least trying to understand the EI from a non threatening, quote, political agenda. Is curiosity. You're curious. Don't put up a wall. Just be curious and ask questions and and trust the person if you can, the person that you're talking with and saying, hey, I'm just curious. Why is D and I? What is that about?
I don't understand it. Be curious. Because that curiosity, you know, I think, you know, we look at the biblical narrative with Jesus, he seemed to embrace curious people. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 100 percent. Well, he also, he also liked food. All right. He's like food too. Yeah. But he seemed to embrace the curiosity and people like Zaccheus who were curious. Turned out to be transformed. Mm hmm. Yep. Yeah. And transform people, transform households, transform households, transform community.
Yeah. And Leonard, I love that so much. I think, uh, you know, what I have felt recently, and I, and I have felt this from a standpoint of, you know, running a secular non-for-profit organization where it just, it feels like the DEI language can feel heavy, can feel heavy at times.
Like, like I need to, like I need to figure out how to like fully incorporate all of the, you know, and it's like, and it's like, well, you know, now you've put me, now you've put me into a corner where it's like, I, I, because to your exact point, then it feels like I can't have curious conversations. I have to feel how I feel.
I have to like fulfill some quota or something as opposed to beginning on this journey of of understanding people, having conversations with them, sitting across the table from them. You know, and that's that's a well, first of all, it's a much more Jesus shaped approach. And and I think this is this is the thing. I feel like when it comes to people of faith, we have a unique opportunity to enter into DEI kind of conversations that the secular world is missing.
And the problem is, as I see it, that because the secular side has been louder and has come to the table with more force and quite honestly has tried to, for lack of better term, legislate it versus relationally engaging in it, which I hear is what you're promoting. I hear you in a relational promotion of these things, which I'm with. I think that's where we've gotten confused.
So for the church, for followers of Jesus, I just want to say, I think you've really plotted a course for us to kind of talk about it. Not as the world does, right? But as through a kingdom lens, if that makes sense. I think the world is starving for ways to engage the other and being able to engage with authenticity, with curiosity and with the ability.
I think if you're authentic and you're curious where one has to part ways, wherever that parting may or may not occur, it is similar to there and acts. I'm going to mess up for those who are scholars, so I apologize. But I think it was Paul and Timothy, not Timothy, Paul and, ah, can't think of the other. other younger, younger apprentice that was with him. And they had a depart, they had such a sharp disagreement, right?
But then later in one of the letters, Timothy writes, because Timothy is the great peacekeeper. I think it's Timothy, he's the great peacekeeper. They he writes about both of the he writes about that young apprentice about him still flourishing. So in other words, it was this it was a sense of because the relationship was based on curiosity and authenticity, authenticity with the foundation of Christ.
There was a sharp departure, but that departure still produced fruit for both of those gentlemen in their ministry. And so there are times where you just have to say, may God bless you and keep you along the way so that the relationship is maintained. There is there is. And so I'm not, I'm not, I'm not one for this, um, honky-dory, uh, you know,
kumbaya. I recognize if I had time to tell you about my Nana, who I grew up with in the story, she told me as a shamanly about Puerto Ricans and how terrible they were and how all these things, because many of them were taking quote, her job, um, because, uh, first with the great migration, African Americans came in and took the jobs from poor whites. And then when when the great migration for the Hispanics from Puerto Rico came up, they took the jobs from many of the African Americans.
You know, so so I grew up with this animosity towards a particular court, you know, Puerto Ricans and, you know, in God's great sister humor, who do I fall in love with, you know, you know, in college, you know, and I remember going to my Nana and saying, you know, Nana, you know, because my wife, Rosalie was coming over for dinner and I didn't want to, You know, I didn't want to sing, you know, because you'd never had to guess what was on my Nana's mind. She'll tell you.
You know, you know, in the one part of the story, I should tell you, she was suffering from Alzheimer's a little bit. So she would forget things. And so I said, Nana, you know, I met this young lady at college. She goes, Oh, baby, that's awesome. What she didn't say, awesome. That's beautiful. What's her name? I said, Rosalie. She's like, Oh, just like my cousin Rosalie. I was like, eh, not exactly. And I said, Nana, I, you know, I love, I love you.
And I think this young lady might be the one, but I need you to know she's Puerto Rican silence. And then my Nana goes, I love Puerto Ricans. So I take that either I took it like either her Alzheimer's kicked in and she forgot. Or she loved her grandson. Yeah. And she recognized, you know what? So I got to swallow my pride here and maybe I was wrong. In any case, I said thank you, Nana, and ran out of the room. That's all the blessing you needed. So we all have our baggage.
We all have these dysfunctions and we all have the systems telling us that we're to hate the other or the others come to quote, "take whatever." I'm here to tell you that in God's economy, there's enough that our God is the God of abundance. And in my experience, when I have been most generous, when I've been generous as a steward of what God has given me, God has walked alongside me in ways and bless me in those relationships and even in my own personal walk.
And lastly, I'll just close with, I don't want to say at any stretch of imagination, part of our challenge, you know, I'm not afraid of the system's conversation. Part of the challenge from my perspective are systems that the zero sum game that's placed us in there. But I do also believe that relationships are the utmost importance. And I think because of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us who call ourselves Christian, the church should be leading and we have dropped the ball in that.
Yeah. Amen. Amen. So, so some of you who would watch this podcast may have saw my son peek in because he wants to get back into his dorm room here. So I better get off this call. Quickly listen to the dudes and dads pop quiz. All right. Thank you Aaron James. Here we go. All right, Leonard. This is where we just ask you random questions. Real quick, real quick rapid fire. You can't prepare for it's always a good
time. Here we go. Let's see. Leonard, if you could live anywhere in the world for a year, where would it be? Durban, South Africa. Oh, nice. That's a first South African reference. That's fantastic. I have visited there, the water, the Indian Ocean. It's beautiful, the people, the music. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Which words or phrases do you overuse the most? Don't do that to my children. Fair enough. Leonard Beach, Safari or Forest Vacation? Forest, I'm a camper. Oh, boy.
I go to Maine. People, Leonard, I love it. We used to go up to Maine with the kids and now we go to Vermont. And we do two weeks tent camping. So nice. You're my when we do our out East tent camping outing someday. You're going to be my contact. You're going to tell us there we go. All right. There we go. I can't wait. I can't wait. All right. My last one. If there was a sandwich named after you, what would be on it? What would be on it? Let me think. Wow. I would. It would you know what?
It's already a sandwich. It's not named after me. But if I could if I could take the name cheese, they can make it a Leonard. It would be that. Oh, come on now. Yeah. Yeah. Philadelphia for a resident with ways or without. Oh, no, Wiz. No, no, true Philadelphia use Wiz. Come on, Andy. Oh, gosh. He got American cheese, bro. He got to use American cheese. I got a hat. I had a hat. All right. My final question. We're gonna stay in the food category. You're a Leonard.
What is the weirdest food that you've ever eaten? You know what? I had friends who invited me over. Hopefully they'll listen to the dead podcast and I think I think it was figure what country in Africa, but it was a country that used peanut butter a lot for their food. So I was excited, but they mistakenly used Jeff peanut butter. Instead of of a stew that you can make out of peanut butter. And so they used Jeff peanut butter on spaghetti sauce on spaghetti noodles. Okay. And it was bad.
That was the weirdest thing that I ever had. It was one of those times as soon as you say, all right, good night. I was like, honey, we got to go get a pizza. Yeah. Well, Leonard, congratulations. You have successfully passed the dudes and dads pop quiz. Friends, thanks for tuning in yet again to another episode. We're glad that you did. As always, you can head over to dudesanddadspodcast.com for all the show notes and good details. We'll make Leonard's contact information.
We'll make him embarrassingly easy to find. No, no. Yeah, that's right. They're coming after you, Leonard. Also, you can send us an email at Jewsandadspodcast@gmail.com. If you got any great show ideas, comments or harsh rebukes, we'll take all of them. Yeah. Oh, you're going to get some rebukes. You're going to get some rebukes. I have no doubt. That's coming. OK. Hey, everybody, until next time, thanks for tuning in. We look forward to seeing you and we wish you grace and peace. [MUSIC]
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