Christian Higher Ed

On this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, we're talking with our friends at Grace College about Christian higher ed

Dole welcome. This is an interesting thing for us Andy. We are we are deep in the land of Winona Lake Why Nona Winona it however we pronounce it. I'm sure our guests will correct us officially, but

We're really fortunate. We're actually in on campus here at Grace College and We have been invited to do a couple of what I'm referring to as the grace sessions It sounds I like sounds like official and that like some sort of Grammy winning experience will come out of this but Really our our exciting thing here is that we're recording Two episodes here and we have students that are a part of this recording session. They're gonna use these podcasts as

Official projects to submit for recording classes. So we're excited about that We want to say thank you to our friend Scott Allen who helped set all this up Who's an instructor down here at grace and we've got a couple of guests as well from the college who are gonna talk about kind of big picture Christian ed and then on our next episode talking specifically about grace the experience the college experience here what's offered and

And why grace is a great decision for someone who's looking for a Christian college experience

So but before we do that Andy, we have people that help make this show possible We do so this episode is supported by a AVAD Chiropractic our pain intention holding you back at a AVAD chiropractic and wellness in Goshen We help you move better feel better and live better Whether you're an athlete recovering from injury or just tired of the daily Aches our expert chiropractic care and therapeutic massage can help get you back to doing what you love

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AVAD chiropractic and wellness because your body deserves the best. Oh, dr. Clark Kaufman over there a AVAD chiropractic If you have not heard me say this before Several years ago on my 35th birthday. I woke up got out of bed a terrible crack sensation I heard it and I called dr. Dr. Kaufman immediately He said like like like it was an emergency situation. He goes I'll be right there and I met him down at the office

He did things to me that I I didn't know were possible noises in my spine were made. I walked out of there Walking upright. So that's my personal testimonial for a AVAD chiropractic and wellness So glad to have them as sponsors so grateful for their support of the dudes and dads podcast Well, hey this evening we have two will say Distinguished guests. I'm gonna I'm gonna use that kind of language about this

I don't want to oversell it. I don't want to undersell it. So we've decided to use the word distinguished Andy. Is that appropriate? But so I want to have you guys introduce yourself Yeah, when we when we do this we do the dad stats. So tell me are you married? Do you have kids?

Just tell me all about you. So first and I'll just say joining us our doctors Wally Brath and Kevin Roberts. They are so Dr. Bratz serves as the head of worship arts here at Grace College and then Dr. Roberts is the Provost I have never known you're gonna tell us what Provost is because I have never fully known people say Provost and I'm like that sounds Superficial. I don't know what that does. But you're also a professor here you you teach you are a past graduate student here as well

I did read your bio. I looked into it a little digging So we're gonna get to hear more about that. But as Andy said you guys get to introduce yourself tell us all the things about you your family that you feel are safe for the internet and Wally we'll start with you first go for it. Sure well been married for for 35 years have three kids and My oldest is a senior here at Grace College. I studying engineering

My middle child Carissa. She is at Ball State a Violin major there and my youngest is a junior in high school here at Warsaw High School One kind of interesting thing about us is is all of us play musical instruments So we have a we have a bass player my oldest son middle child violin youngest child Percussion my wife's a violinist. I play piano so we get to do things at church together Which is a little bit of a family band family band family band asked at the breath family

Yes, the breath family players. I can just see it. It's in lights so Yeah, and also very interestingly my my kids They really dig like the music that that my wife and I are into in fact

This this weekend. We're gonna go see Foster the People and she yes and but as a family, which is really interesting so my kids will listen to like, you know old Kansas Records and yes, and Just just I you know, that's not supposed to happen But for whatever reason my kids have have just really been into like well, it's because you've done something, right? Well, it's you've you've trained them up in the way. They should go. That's right. That's what's happened. That's what I hear. Yes. Yes

Yes, thank you. So that's my family wonderful Kevin over to you. Yeah, so I've been married for 29 years almost 29 years and to my wife Heather and we have two kids I have one that is a junior here at grace

Just getting his M. Cats course back today. Nice so and then I have a daughter who's down at Huntington University and she is studying art education wonderful, so interesting about us We travel a lot as a family, I think I've been to all but six major league ballparks And after my own heart yeah, and my wife's a pharmacist and so Of course, I'm a psychologist so, you know, she gives them the drugs and I try to keep them away from people. So it's

What the dynamic family dynamic that's great that's great. Yeah, wonderful Well, we're so glad to have you guys with us here on this show And I think it's a unique opportunity when we get to talk with people who are on the ground Daily working with college students. It's a someone who was a youth and young adult pastor for for quite a while

Just this season of life. I think young adults number one and I've said this on our show before I'll say it again What an exciting time of life but very very critical and and I have a general sense that Of course, none of our grace college students fall into this category But you know our young adults are struggling in a lot of in a lot of ways and there there are some real serious

challenges that lie in front of them and I just think it's a unique opportunity to be able to talk about those things and to talk about maybe even specifically as we're this this first session that we're talking just Christian education as a whole kind of the big 30,000 foot view What has been going on in Christian ed?

what is going on thinking specifically to the needs of college students currently and and the questions and the needs that families have is they're trying to navigate like What what will be those educational decisions that we make so I When I sent the show notes out to you guys I'll just tell you back in I remember I remember the day back in 2009 right around this time of year. I was sitting in a

Graduate class. It was the psychology of pastoral counseling So, you know deep stuff had a clinical psychologist is teaching this class, but we always had a little bit of a kind of a devotional before before class would start and that day

He brought a doozy. It was a recent article that had been picked up by the the Christian Science Monitor from an author known as Michael Spencer and Michael Spencer at the time was like one of the guys for our young people there used to be these things called blogs that people read and that was like long articles online before the podcast thing really really hit and so Michael Spencer was one of the top Christian bloggers in the

in the country and getting thousands of tens of thousands of daily of daily reads regularly and he wrote this article on his blog that kind of picked up attention That was back in 2009 that he wrote that he wrote this article and I have gone back every single year It's kind of like he made these kind of pronouncements and statements about his concern about Evangelical faith evangelical culture where we were going what what challenges were ahead and

I have gone back every year to this article to kind of be like how what how right was he? Just as a kind of a little bit of a canary down the mine shaft so to speak, you know Am I seeing these things ongoing in our culture? Are these concerns still relevant today? And And if so, what are we what are we doing about it? Are we talking about it?

So when we have these kind of conversations Especially with people who are professors who are at a Christian college there's a couple of items that he mentions in this article that are specific to that so I'm gonna read this quote and Then I want to like just dive in and see what you guys just what you think about it. Yay. Nay And all that and then Andy and I will just pepper you with questions after that. So he wrote again This is back in the spring of 2009. He wrote this article entitled

The coming evangelical collapse. Okay, so like a really striking title, right? And as part of this article he writes this We evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught ironically The billions of dollars that we've spent on youth ministers Christian music Publishing and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith

Except how they feel about it. Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war But do not know why they should obey Scripture the essentials of theology or the experience of spiritual discipline and community coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture wide pressures and he continues on in his next point He says despite some very successful developments in the past 25 years

Christian education has not produced a product that can withstand the rising tide of secularism Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself Ouch, and by the way, I'm sitting and we're sitting here talking to college professors I was sitting at a Christian College getting a graduate degree and my Psych Christian psych professor is leveling the statement for a devotional mind you That was a little bit unexpected

But it's just this is stuck out to me and I've just kind of gone back to this every year to say What is going on? So You hear these words You hear these concerns about are you training our young people?

Preparing them for the world in which they're going into and the and a little bit of the accusation here and mind you Michael Spencer was A chaplain at a Christian school as he as he wrote this as well down in Kentucky So in a little more context, he was kind of preaching to his own people, too When you hear this What what resonates with you? What maybe you would push back on where do you how do you see this kind of playing out within a student body? and

And just kind of the broader sphere again. We're kind of talking big picture a broader sphere of within Christian education

What resonates with you guys? What do you think Wally? I'll give it to you Give it to you first and we can kind of go around the room Yeah I Mean I think part of the maybe what he's what he's getting at there is I See as a result of maybe like the local church because we have a lot of students coming from a lot of different you know denominational backgrounds and you know, they a Large part of how they view their relationship with God and and

Comes from the way they were shaped in that local church You know the the early Church Fathers said the way we pray or the way we worship affects what we believe and it now goes both ways what we believe affects how we pray and worship but You know that the how we worship week after week I Often tell students that that the the Sunday worship service is really the front lines of discipleship You know what we what we emphasize in worship week after week the sung prayers that we sing together

Are shaping the way we see God and the way that we respond to him and Unfortunately, I think

In kind of the larger evangelical context. It's gotten to be very consumer driven very and and so You know, it's kind of like this big machine that's kind of pumping out different, you know Whether it's music or conferences or you know books that kind of thing And so but I'm not sure We've we've thought you know a little bit deeper about how As a local church, we're actually, you know shaping the people of God so when so when we get students here

They already have obviously, you know worldview and in ways that they think about the Word of God and in those things is so Yeah, so I mean part part of what we do with worship arts we have a you know a course in history of Christian worship and biblical theology of worship But we're trying to I'm trying to even let them see kind of the the trajectory of where where where their denomination has come from Right, so they kind of have a context of that

but we look at you know kind of even pre Reformation and and you know What not everything in the medieval period was was you know was was bad, you know and even kind of going back kind of beyond the The Enlightenment and and the Reformation those kinds of things just so they get a context Of how how the church in each era interpreted the Word of God, you know, and that's that's really important So So yeah, so what we're trying to do is is trying to equip these students to be

Pastoral musicians, you know worship pastors first and so we have in in our you know, you know, maybe we'll talk about this at a different point too in the podcast, but But we I think we have a good balance of kind of the theology of worship and then some real practical musical things that they'll they'll need to do as they as they go out into churches, but to realize that

The kinds of worship services the liturgies that they're planning are shaping the people of God. I mean, I think that's a Really big part of it So I think even if they just kind of kind of understand that and kind of own it and feel the weight of that I think that could in turn maybe Change change the culture a little bit, you know going forward. So Yeah, I would go back to that first statement he says where he says we in the evangelicals have failed to pass on

To our young people an Orthodox form of faith that take root and survive the secular onslaught. I think where I struggle

And in a good way with this is I think it comes down to human for me. It comes down to development I don't think if you if you fail to understand that you are chosen known right adopted and Loved by God unless your identity is fully in Christ You are going to be swayed and you're gonna be influenced and I don't think we have probably done an adequate job in my opinion of really teaching identity formation that is in Christ and

I think it's something we have to get better at because otherwise we're gonna be swayed by the Experiences right? Where does that where does that start? Is that? Starting at home when we're young or where does that start? I think that starts at home because I think you have to ask yourself the question all the time Right was does my performance determine my value does how pretty I am or how athletic I am Determine my value and where do I get my value from and so for me?

You're gonna easily be swayed if you do not realize first where you're rooted Because it all comes back to and if you follow the longings that all human beings have

They come back to some of those very root things about being in Christ, right? We want to be accepted We want to be loved and we want other people's approval But we have that in Christ and that's where I feel like if we failed we've probably failed there yeah, what so You know, I think about Moms and dads aunts and uncles You know fellow believers in a faith community who

Who want to see their young people succeed, right? They want it. They want to see them be discipled and to you know grow up and there's You know, they're a lot of our young people, you know the 18 19 years before they ever find themselves in a college context if that's the route that they take and those are I mean For someone who does a lot of you know, adolescent talk Thanks a lot and talks a lot about adolescent brain development and all those sort of I mean, they're a sponge right?

Like they're just they're they're sucking all of this culture all these experiences up long before they're ever even you know I'm sure you you many times have felt like man if I only could have Connected with this student a few years a few years earlier But for a community that really wants the best for for young people And and then they're they're hoping that maybe this next The college experience the next the next phase of their life, which is again

So critical will be kind of this determining factor will help solidify some of the things Kevin that you just outlined here in terms of identity What What questions for anybody that's thinking about Christian education for their young for their young person and Is concerned about that identity question when they're looking at colleges?

What questions should they be asking to sort of say is this a place that is Concerned about that Andy and I had a very riveting conversation on the way down here because I'm always asking it I'm always asking this question of of the sort of the formal learning aspect and the formational aspect and the integration of those two things I think my bias would be that places tend to do very well You know, I don't want to make a bifurcation here

But they tend to do well may be better in one area and not so well in the other or vice versa they can that can happen on either side You're counseling a potential future college student who's looking at Christian College Parents are trying to ask this question of like oh, is this the place that's going to help them With their identity like understand their central identity in Christ

What would you counsel them toward what would what questions can they be asking the colleges what questions can they be asking staff and things Like that because I'm sure you answer those questions yourself. So Yeah, help us well, I think that's the I think that's the beauty of going to a Christian College in the first place and it's an even a liberal arts Institution like ours. I think the value is that we're interested in the whole person, right?

We're interested in them emotionally spiritually. We're interested in their intellectual development And yeah, we may not have some of them you there might be some things that we don't have that a big university may have But we're also interested in your complete development Right. Our goal is that you have a formed Christian worldview, right?

And we want you to know where your identities add so that you're not easily swayed that you're going out and you're serving in your church And you're impacting your community and meaningful ways Right. So for me, I think one of the things that they have to look for is what do you want from for your child? Right. What do you want? Do you want? Intellectual development or do you want the whole package?

For the parent that just wants their kid to make a lot of money when they graduate college like what what about what about that? Is that is that bad? Should they be shamed or should they be gently?

Corrected and told told for to go on a different path. What Wally help us help us out, man I probably the wrong person As a being in in worship ministry for you know, 25 plus years and then yeah Yeah, I mean I think of that I think of what Jesus said in the Gospels, you know, he said like, you know What good is it if you if you gain the whole world and yet forfeit your soul?

I mean I don't obviously we need to be able to make a living and take care of our families and So for for me, you know a lot of time parents will say well, you know my my my student They love music. They love worship, but I want them to be able to make a living You know that I don't want them living in my base, right?

And and part of that I mean, you know, I know my my experience, you know, God has always taken care of My family, you know, even when we just started out we were just kind of in small churches and we were part of some church planting when we were at Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis and You know this kind of entrepreneurial, you know starting up different churches and that kind of thing. God has always

Been faithful to take care of us. So I mean I that might seem like a cop-out but but I think if you're feeling called to to ministry whether it's you know, preaching or you know, overseas ministry or you know kind of worship ministry You know, you're not gonna make you know, you're probably not gonna make a ton of money in that But God's gonna God's gonna take care of you but I think for the the students that want to study, you know, like that are more in STEM and engineering and

You know business and that kind of thing. I mean they they just need to know how to Not see that as an idol and and also how best to kind of steward the resources that that God will give them You know kind of in the future in their in their vocation. So I think Here, you know, I think at a Christian institution Hopefully we're gonna kind of instill those values as well how to be good stewards of that. So so

Part of my story is right out of high school. I graduated. I'm gonna date myself here graduated in 1998 high school went two years to a small Christian school in Illinois and Stopped and went life took me somewhere else didn't graduate from there now that college is no longer We're seeing a lot of this disappearing. So I ended up going back later I got my degree online from another Christian University, but But did it online? Do you think it?

In the world where it's harder and harder worth these smaller schools are closing closing down What does that look like so is it is it still I mean Do we is it smart to still go to a small school that may be closing in? Two years or is it and this is a flip side of that coin Is it also maybe better to wait a little bit for me? I went back in my 30s And finished and got my degree. Is it smarter to wait?

For that like because I'll go on the other I'll just say this Andy was a phenomenal student in his 30s I was I was a terrible student in sometimes they say education is wasted on the young right and it's and it's like That's a that's a great point, you know yeah, so I just I guess the the thrust of your question is just this is Well, we're always asking this question is college the best is it the best thing right right after it's right out of high school

As you guys think about the Christian college experience or whatever. I know I was You know, I just I just think about my own experience I was such a better student at toward the end toward the end like just such a better so much more focused

I knew I knew how much my money was actually worth. That's exactly yes When I'm right now, I was responsible for my loans right then, you know things like that What I don't if you guys have you know Kevin if you have thoughts just on yeah, I just done on that of The timing and discerning because there's obviously pressures for some of like I got to know the next thing What do you think what would your count again?

We're we're talking to we're talking to families who are coming to you for the sage advice of what they should do with their with this

Pedential college student. What do we think? Well, my family were they were not believers So I started at a university and when I got saved I I went and I was not ready for college And no one had ever been to college on either side of my family So, you know, I probably had a robust 2.2 GPA at the end of my first year and a half Because I didn't know how to study I had never studied and so So it was it a good use of my money right then no, it was not but I stay I obviously stayed the course and

I do think there's value in going early The difference between an 18 year old brains development and a 21 year old brains development it is Huge and you can see it in the conversations in the classroom You can see it in the the kinds of things that you can the thoughtful discussions that you can have There are much harder when they're younger So I think there's value in going early. I'm probably biased that way But Clearly you get to be a better student

When you see that you have to pay those student loans back and it feels more real to you. Yeah so What what are they in Kevin? Maybe this is a Wall if you've got thoughts on this too, I think Asking we kind of asked this question about like in the Christian college world. What are the like? What are the trends that are emerging? What are the what are the big things?

What are the kind of the national Christian college level as you guys go to your conferences and you're part of your associations or whatever? What are people talking about? What are the what are the the challenges? What are the the victories?

What where's the you know, hopefully we're all feeling hopeful about about things but also You know it as someone who leads a just even a secular non-for-profit now the money is not getting any easier and and People's hesitations seem to be increasing for a number of reasons

What what's what's what's emerging? What is what are the big conversations? This is made this is a provost question for sure I'm just interested to get your yeah to get your your sense of that Well, I was just in Texas last week at an International Alliance of Christian Education that kind of goes k-12 all the way through so You know, we spend a lot of time talking about some of the real the realities that are really difficult that we're facing right now

and some of them are things like AI how I AI is going to influence all of us and The ways it's influencing education and are we embracing it are we not And so there's a there's a lot of debate about that right now. I think the other things that we face are finding the right faculty and Industry we're the hiring of the right faculty members has become You know

Increasingly more of a challenge there's because there's some disciplines. You just can't hardly find them I mean interesting we've had positions and one of our disciplines open for four years and You know finding those folks are Difficult is it difficult from so I'm just wondering is it difficult? Just based on the skill set itself or is it skill set and

Believe, you know like because we I am assuming we're hiring Christian professors here. Yeah, right So they have to sign off on the belief statement, right? There's a doctrinal component is is it collectively the challenge or is it both are both are an issue? No, it's not both. I would say it's definitely the industry. Okay. Yeah more and more people have left especially when you get into the sciences Your Psychologists and what they can make immediately in industry is so much different

Yeah, then we just don't pay them as well. Yeah. Yeah, and and that's the challenge, right? So but you're looking for those best qualified people and so sometimes waiting to find those

Great fits and highly qualified people. Sometimes you're waiting for a couple of years to get them Does it look like I've heard some of my colleagues talk about the and this is I think this is a made-up term but the adjunctification of Christian ed where you're finding More and more part-time professors or people that are in in an industry in a discipline who are coming in and who are you know? Offering I mean what good bad is that like is that a concern?

Well, it is it can be It can also be a wonderful blessing too, right? Because you know there was when I first started and fell in love with teaching It was I was out there doing counseling and I was doing the work and so you're bringing a ton of expertise right there - But how do you integrate faith and see everything from a Christian worldview?

and those people are coming in part-time and we don't always pay them the best money in the world and And yet we're we have these you know high standards that we want to reach and so it That creates a little bit of a dilemma for anyone in higher ed. Yeah. Yeah at the end of the day, I mean our So, I don't know if you guys have either one of you like national and the national enrollment levels at the Christian College level are we

Where are we? Like? How are we doing? We're we're we are out of space. Okay We had to shut down we had to shut down Emissions last year we were pacing ahead of even last year and so you know, we're You know, we we bought up houses We've done other things to just try to meet the demand for students at the at the bigger at the bigger picture Is there?

Because I'm incredibly hopeful about this actually because I think there's a as the young people to say maybe a maybe a vibe shift going on here but like is there a new Is there a renewed interest in Christian education is there maybe a renewed Value I have heard from some young people where it's it's like I never would have considered this but I recognize like I need this kind of community in my life for this this next this next phase because I have felt so

Distant or disassociated from a really good an intentional Christian community and this this this might be by the way People that it could vary whether they were directly connected with the Christian community at a congregation level or not They're still having there's still those challenges and And there seems to be a renewed just a general renewed interest in spirituality Amongst amongst a certain age group and I we kind of feel that I'm really hopeful for that

So you guys here specifically and I wonder I think maybe there's other places that are like this if this kind of bigger conversation of like are our Christian college is prepared to scale and If not, what do we do it? Like what do we do about that? if there is an a new wave of student coming in at a Increase, you know increased level. I just I just wonder like not that we can tell the future but I wonder like what you know What's the answer is there is there one?

well and you couple that with an interesting problem that Some of the schools are are really diminishing and like you said, I don't know if it was Lincoln Christian College It was I've been on that campus a hundred times. So But you know you see some of these schools that are vanishing and obviously there are a lot of needs and and so We do face some interesting demands, but I will say, you know, Indiana's got a lot of Christian colleges here, right?

we've got several of them all within the a pretty narrow area of probably an hour and a half and

But not all have seen increases. Yeah, so yeah. Well, I I think You know as we're talking again just kind of big picture Christian College here I there it sounds to me like there's a lot of a lot of reason to be hopeful for the for the future and a lot of a lot of reason to to invest in it and yet some just some discernment that has to that has to go on ahead of time and and You know, I would I would offer this I'm guessing you guys would agree like

Make a lot of visits start your visiting process soon Ask ask all the questions that you can ask Interrogate you're gonna be spending a lot of time at this place wherever it is that you're going interrogate it And and and find and find out and you know For those of you listening as I sit across the table from these gentlemen here tonight that I can see they are ready for interrogation

They are they are they're the they encourage it. They welcome it. So so so come in come and do it and and and really You know the Christian education the Christian College You know, we've had some discussion about you know people there we tend to think I know in my my college It was we trained ministers teachers and nurses, you know, and that's that's true for here at grace, too

That's a that's a big that's a big part of it. But again our future business leaders are You know our future medical professionals You know even beyond beyond nurse, you know in addition to nursing on all those sort of things all these different areas and And really a Christian a Christian education in those in those spaces it just seems that we're able that it's able to offer a kind of a more integrated approach I think that's that's the goal right because

Because if you're at a Christian college and you're sitting in a business management class, right there there is this assumption that we're teaching business management through the mindset of how to do this as a Christ follower and I've worked with a lot of people my friends who? Who who never got that?

not ever got that assistance in their in their management training or or what or whatever and It goes it goes a long way again you said Kevin I think you said a great like this whole idea of identity of identity who who we are And pointing pointing people back because ultimately we're saying here putting back to them back to the core of the gospel

Really? I mean that that is that is at the core of it and I would say I'm guessing you guys would agree like for anybody that's thinking about Christian education Like maybe asking the question like how is the gospel impacting every single class here? What is its place? What is its purpose? You know as you're thinking about that next that next stage for for your student or for our for our young people

We have young people listen to this show - they're thinking about that. Maybe that's a that's a key question. So Gentlemen, we're so grateful for this time with you. We can't end any episode without what we know as The dudes and dads pop quiz now, it's time for the dudes and dads pop quiz All right So the pop quiz is essentially we ask you questions that are not related to anything with this episode just to get to know you

A little bit better - two questions each two questions each. Okay. All right. All right first question What book should I be reading right now? You both get to answer

There's so My first book that I always would recommend is Andrew Murray's humility book, okay Small yes, then as a humility book should be One of the great reads but the first time you read it It'll impact you the second time it'll have profound impact interesting interesting. I Would say I just got done reading Malcolm Guy. He's an Irish poet. He

Came up with this collection of advent poems. I'm having an epiphany and then but it's not just his poems it's like a collection of of lots of different poetry and With with commentary as well. So I would really recommend that Malcolm Geitz ITE his his his collection of advent poems Fantastic. Okay. All right, and I'm more of a technology person whereas Joel was more of a book type person

So I'm gonna ask the question if you had to delete all but one app from your smartphone. What would you keep? And the phone app itself doesn't count yeah, yeah, well now we'll let it function still as a phone The way got intended I Love the ability Through my banking app to take a picture of a check. Yes Visits a bank anymore. I mean really I I'm so lazy That's great that is that that is a very hard question He's looking at his phone, right Because I'm thinking he's trying to make a decision

All right. All right, I would say I'm gonna do a game because that this would make it Star Wars galaxy of heroes Okay, right. Okay much nerdier answer than I thought I might get so that's bonus points for that. That's fantastic Okay. Well, thanks gentlemen. We you successfully passed the dudes and dads pop quiz. Well, well, well, well done. Well, hey friends We're so grateful for you listening in Thanks so much as always you can head over to the dudes and dads calm for

Past episodes. Yeah present episodes our Merchandise feel free to get a get a hoodie get a hat and he's supporting the hat tonight on tonight

Yeah show notes all the good stuff. If you want to know more we'll make even our guests here on night We'll make them embarrassingly easy to easy to find over at dudes and dads calm if you've got future show ideas What should they do Andy?

Email us email us. Thank you. Remember the voicemail number, right? Yeah, so you can email us Dudes and dads pop dudes and dads podcast at gmail.com if you get future show ideas or a strong rebuke to send to us for The whatever it is that we put out on the internet and you're just uncomfortable with it Feel free to let us know why we should take it down That's never happened before so I keep once once excuse me what's happened one time but just be there nothing too controversial, but

I keep on upping the ante on just trying to invite people to send us an email And we didn't we actually got a visit our last show we got a really nice email Did we get a nice email through somebody we did so no one sent us the rebukes. It's been all it's all been all nice So far, that's fine, too. Okay. Well, hey everybody. We're so grateful for you listening. Thanks for hanging out with us And until next time we wish you grace happy You (whooshing)