On today's episode of Gathering McKens. Try some things out. You're young. You don't know exactly what's gonna happen in the future. Try some different things out. See you like. If it's at all possible, spend your time working in something that you like to do. And that's cliched, but it couldn't be more true.
You are listening to Gathering the Kings with Chaz Wolfe featuring fellow 78 and even 9 figure business owners who have real battle scars from business and life, but have prevailed as the king that they are designed to be We welcome high performing entrepreneurs to the stage in order to reveal the real of the real on what it takes to build a successful business today.
We dissect the good and bad decisions they've made along the way Chaz give a true and accurate picture of the journey of success and how you too can get the Through this dialogue, you will learn the value of growing your network and surrounding yourself with power players and keys like today's guest. Grab your pen and notebook because we're about to dive in. What's up, Gavin? The king's nation. Chaz Wolf coming back to you this week with a guest.
Michael Pink. This dude has been around for a minute. He is a seasoned veteran to the space that he's gonna speak about. And I just love how he jumps into a lot of the decisions that he's made over the years. I think that you guys are gonna get a ton of value from some of the I wouldn't call it regret, but some of the things he looks back and reflects on in his later years.
And I think that a lot of the lot of the guys listening to this show are gonna get value because he's fast forwarded things for you. Get that pen and paper. Here it comes. Alright. Everybody, Chaz Wolfe, gathering the Kings. I'm your host. I've got Michael Pink on the stage today. Welcome, Michael. How are you? Good, sir. Travis, I'm very Wolfe. Happy to be here with you. You know, I just so appreciate a a humble approach. This is gonna be a fun show.
So for the listener who's tuning in right now and doesn't know anything about you. The the little bit that I have come to know and just a a little bit of interaction is that you have a you have a healthy perspective on life. And so I'm I'm I'm really curious to see how this conversation goes and where it turns out what what kind of value we bring to listener. Tell us tell us what kind of business that you're in, Michael. I'm in the real estate business. I wear 2 hats.
One of them is, a business that I started in 1986 called MAP Real Estate Incorporated. It specializes in the world of office space, as distinct, for example, from industrial or retail, and we specialize in the representation always and only of the corporate tenant. Okay. Now sometimes we negotiate a lease that's not for office space, but we specialize in office. And sometimes we negotiate the purchase of the building or the office space that our client wants to occupy. But mostly it's leases.
Okay. Great. And then what's the other hat that you that that you're wearing in the real estate space? My other hat is called investing in communities. And that is the name of a nonprofit social enterprise that my wife and I founded as the result something we began to do 25 years ago as part of map real estate. Believe it or not, when my company was nine years old before for. I thought I really could afford to do something like this.
I said to Sharon, oh, I would like to try to be in business in a different way so that when I'm working hard, I know I'm doing it to try to benefit us, and I want it to benefit the Wolfe. And I want not to be able to separate those 2 things. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, we're gonna definitely dig into that because I don't know if, of a more keenly mindset to have.
We were just kinda chatting about this offline, you know, for the listener who didn't get to hear us, but, we were talking about, you know, kind of like this king mindset and and taking, you know, really ownership of more people around you than just yourself and and really that's what happens at a certain level in the business. And it sounds like what you've done as far as even, outside of the business, kinda merging two worlds together.
And taking ownership for others around you in your life and, providing, that's a that's a very kingly thing to do. So I wanna get into your story here and figure out how you got into business. Tell us how entrepreneurship started. You said you've been in business a long time, you know, so 25 plus years. Where did it all start for you? Well, it all started in 4th grade when my parents moved the family from a Northern suburb of Chicago right downtown.
And we moved into a forty story apartment building. I was in 4th grade. My next older brother was, 2 years 2 grades ahead of me. And, we moved from a very large house into a three bedroom apartment. And my brother and I began a dog walking and shoe shining business and our, clientele was residents in our forty story building. That's how it started. And, continuing that, I had 2 part time jobs, pretty much throughout high school not because I needed it, but for some reason, I wanted to do this.
And in fact, my father I'm afraid that I really hurt his feelings once when I was in 9th grade, and I said, dad, I don't need to get in allowance anymore. Not being Took it into your own hands. Not being a parent myself. It it escaped me that maybe I was depriving him of something which gave him great joy as my father. Right.
But at any rate, then I went into a business in New Mexico with my oldest brother Chaz was distributing industrial fasteners and buying and selling used machine tools at auction around country, a three mile island occurred and made the uranium electric power generating industry on the planet Earth go away overnight. Wow. Our customers were the uranium mines primarily in the contractors that built them and maintained them.
Sure. So I came back to Chicago to reinvent myself and got into the commercial real estate brokerage industry as an office tenant rep. That was 1985. I started MAP Real Estate the next year, and that's what we'll talk about. Yeah. I love that. I love, I mean, obviously, I'm a huge fan of real estate. I've got a couple of real estate companies as Wolfe. I love the creativity that you can go. You can go in different directions. You can pretty much do whatever you want real estate.
And so you found a home there. I'm curious. Did real estate specifically jump out to you because of, like, how you were raised or because of maybe just your business experience or things that your dad did? Like, where did that come from? Like, how you were raised? Did that influence you at all is what I'm what I'm asking? It it didn't. It did not. In fact, if I can answer your question a little bit, in from the end to the beginning. My dad died 10 days after I was nineteen.
K. Well, he and I never had the first conversation about business. In fact, he and my mother both wanted the 3 boys not to worry about money and instead live life, have experiences, go to camp, travel, stale, walk around the woods looking for things, which is what I've always loved to do. Sir. Don't worry about working. So I also began working at a very early age at home because my dad would pay us to do things like weed the garden. Right? Happy to do it.
So I I got absolutely no direction whatsoever. None from either of my parents about what to do with my life other than try to live it and love it.
Yeah. Do you think, like, that's such an interesting perspective, you know, obviously with me having young kids and you having that perspective, and now I'm sure, you know, just in a different place in life, but do you think that that because they literally gave you nothing to your point, right, do you think that that spurred you into, like, oh, I gotta figure this out because I don't have anything? Or did you wonder for a while? No. Well, we'll you had to figure it out. Let me be clear.
They gave us everything material. Sure. What they didn't provide is guidance. Right. And structure. Yeah. Yeah. So I graduated after four and a half years at a small liberal arts school in Northern California in the middle seventies with a degree in university studies. I have always been interested in so many things that during college with no direction. I didn't declare a major. I was interested in everything.
So university studies now peculiarly has come back into Vogue as being something apparently that corporate employers are interested in because it means you have a broad perspective on the world. My oldest brother told me what he was going to do So I said, oh, I'll do that with you. And that was moved to Albuquerque to start a nut and bolt distributing business from scratch. Right. When I got out of college, I came back home to spend some time with my mom because she was alone then.
This is Downtown Chicago, and I got into the cut flower business because I love cut flowers. Wasn't to make a lot of money. So this really has been very much a a journey of discovery which, has been most unorganized and among the lessons that I've learned is go to work for somebody and learn on their dime. Then change companies if you want. Go to work for somebody else.
I was so allergic to the idea of having my own business again after New Mexico and after three mile island put aside a business. Right. But all I wanted to do was find an older person from whom I could learn, you know, the the the proverbial expression is carry their briefcase? Sure. Yeah. Exactly. Sadly, that didn't pan out for me. And the people that I worked with when I moved back to Chicago were even worse than my former partner, not my brother.
He and I had it partner in Albuquerque, even worse than him. So 14 months after I came back to Chicago, having lost everything in New Mexico, here I am starting my own business again, and that's map real estate. Yeah. Do you feel like at that point, it was out of necessity or it was, like, okay, you had a genuine fresh perspective on what business could be for you? Well, it it was out of necessity in that I needed a job. Right. I didn't really wanna be living in my mother's, condo.
And real estate had always been of me, urban planning, architecture, the built environment, long, long ago when I was I think a senior in high school. I read Lewis Mumford's the city and history, and I've always been fascinated with the concept of the city as the real visible, most prominent manifestation of humanity on planet Earth. Yeah. So for me to be living downtown in the John Hancock building, big tall building, being able to begin a profession in that world was of interest to me.
It also took no capital. I didn't have to have employees was effectively a consulting practice, and I have been a consultant for the last 36, 37 years. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I think that just there's so much to pull out there, you know, that you have just over the years of experience What would you say for the person right now who's listening? There's 2 sides of the coin similar to you where they had no direction and they kinda had to just bump around until I figured it out.
Or to the person who thinks they've got it nailed down, what would you say to both of these parts? They run-in their business. It's a 6 figure business. They haven't reached the 7 figure mark yet. They're trying to get there. And from your experience, does a dial in focus mean more than just a bouncing around, figure it out? Like, what would you say to 1 or both of these people? Well, first of all, my advice to anyone going into business would be try some things out. You're young.
You don't know exactly what's gonna happen the future, try some different things out, see what you like. If it's at all possible, spend your time working in something that you like to do. And that's cliched, but it couldn't be more true. I think it may also be cliched, but also couldn't be more true that you're better off learning how to do someone, something as the employee of a company that knows how to do it, then declaring to the world I'm now going to do it better than anybody.
Might might make sense to go to school first and working for another company is the latter life equivalent of going to school. Sure. 100%. In in terms of someone who has no idea what they wanna do, Think about what brings you joy. I'm about to be sixty seven years old. People used to say that to me. And it was as if they were speaking spaceman talk. Right. Now I get it. Yeah. Now you get it because you can you've got perspective on years.
Okay. So what I'm hearing you say from from the guy who's kind of bouncing around a little bit unorthodox as far as, you know, stages, if you will, is to to dial in on what he what brings him joy. The other guy who's super focused you would say that that's great, but also make sure that the time is being spent long term that's, again, you you're bringing it back to the word joy, which I think is just great perspective, especially I'm sure there's a lot of young entrepreneurs listening.
And, and sometimes it's it's a hustle. It's a grind. You gotta do things that maybe are a little uncomfortable. Some things that you maybe don't wanna do in order for your business to succeed. Do you mean find joy? Meaning, like, only do the things that are easy and fun, or do you mean something at a, like, a deeper level? Much deeper level. And and first of all, this might sound terribly corny but be ethical, period. No matter what. Absolutely. No matter what else be ethical.
Now what I meant by do something that brings you joy, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna smile all the time. It means that it is fulfilling to you. Yeah. Bigger picture. Yes. Okay. Well, let's talk about, some of those things, though, some of those x's and o's inside the business. I love to talk about decisions. For me, decisions have, you know, good or bad, led us to exactly where we are.
And so I wanna hear about some decisions that you've made specifically, let's start with a bad decision, something that you did along the way that was just rough, in the business. And and you think the listener would be able to know, take some notes here and and learn what not to do through your bad decision. Okay. Well, it was absolutely idiotic. For my brother and me to start our company called lightningbolts, It was truly idiotic. Neither one of us had a clue what we were doing.
My brother, because he's eight years older, he was the boss. He he ran the office. He was the head of the company. I needed to figure out what I was gonna do, and I needed to make everything else work except what went on in and from the front office. So I was running the warehouse. I learned how to drive a forklift. I was actually quite good at it.
I traveled around the country looking for surplus job lots of nuts and bolts as they're referred to I once bought 3 semi loads, a £120,000 of nuts and bolts left over from the construction of Sears Tower in Chicago. Wow. I found them at a scrap yard in Indiana, and we shipped them back to Albuquerque. So my end of the business was running the warehouse and traveling around the country to source these fasteners.
I I'm telling you this because when I first got to Albuquerque, I literally did not know which was the nut and which is the bolt. You don't wanna do that. You wanna learn something about what you're doing. That's my strong advice to your listeners. Sure. Don't start your own company. Go to work for somebody else's company and see what they're doing. Right and wrong. Right. Well, and if they're already in their business, right, because most likely the listener is running their own business.
What I'm hearing you say that's applicable for them is become a master at your trade and whether that's you specifically first being the craftsman or the coach or the marketer or the whatever you are in your business, the the agent. But you you can eventually grow the business, obviously, by hiring other people, but then you have to make sure they're then a craftsman or a specialist in in what it is that they're doing.
And so I think the educational piece that you're referring to still makes perfect sense. You know? You have to Great. You gotta know what you're doing in order to be an expert or a confidant in order to be able to provide a good service. Otherwise, you're kinda just shooting by the by the hip. Well, but but the the point I wanna stress to to clarify this line of discussion is that there are a couple ways you can educate yourself. One is by trying to figure out how to do it by yourself.
The other is by learning from people who already know how to do it. Yeah. 100%. I strongly counsel the latter approach. Yeah. I agree. I agree. And I think that's why, you know, in the last, you know, 20 years, you know, business coaches or even mastermind groups like mine, exist is because if you can get around someone else, I remember when I bought my first franchise, the one of the very first things that I did is I said, okay. I I talked to the office, the corporate office. I said, okay.
Who are the top 10 guys? What are their phone numbers? Alright. We can't give it to you. Okay. Great. Well, how do I get it? You know, because I wanted to call them. I wanted to take notes. I wanted to set their feet. How you do this? How you do that? How you do this? How you do that? Right? So I think I think everything that you're saying makes perfect sense.
Even for the entrepreneur who maybe is struggling, it makes even more sense because they probably haven't realized that they're not that good. They they almost have, like, a false sense of of, of arrogance, really. You know, they're not that good, obviously, because their business isn't growing. You press in and and you can grow a business, but it has to be more than just you at that point, right, because you can be you can be really good, but, you know, you can only take it so far.
So, okay, Let's flip the script on the decision. Let's flip it to the good decision. What what have you done along the way in business that just has made so much sense that you'd do it ten times over? Well, I have to tell you, Jazz. I believe that the decision to turn MAP Real Estate into a social enterprise before I had ever heard the term. I don't think there were a lot of people in 1995 talking about social enterprise.
Sure. And it's a decision that I made Chaz I have never regretted, you know, call me weird to think that I like the idea of getting a new assignment aka business opportunity, and the paperwork that creates the business opportunity, which is agency agreement that makes me the exclusive broker is signed at the same time that our philanthropic pledges signed by me and our client Right. For us to give away 10% of whatever it is we're gonna earn.
And and the 10% had nothing at all to do with any particular religious orientation or or ethical anything. It had to do with the fact that I wanted each time we wrote a distribution check, I wanted it to be meaningful to the recipient.
Yeah. So we simply said 10% of the gross And that has led me now to be able to share with you and your audience that MAP Real Estate Incorporated has recently joined the pretty exclusive ranks of less than 5000 businesses on planet earth that have achieved the status of becoming a certified b corporation. Tell us what that is. Well, so there's a there's a 501 C3 in Philadelphia called B. Lab. I met them in 2010 when I attended the social enterprise alliance in Chicago for the time.
And I discovered there was a whole world of people who think the way I do, and all that's happened since then is that I've learned that there that world has gotten bigger and bigger. And Right. If you think, perhaps you and your audience is familiar with the term greenwashing, Okay. So greenwashing can be used more generally to refer to claims and both that are made by companies about what they're doing that's good in the world that are bunk. Not true.
K. So if you have achieved being a certified B Corporation, the world can hear what you are saying and rely that what you're saying is actually accurate because it has been certified by this third party that exists for one person one reason only. And that is to promote the concept of social enterprise through the certified B process. Sure. And I'm very proud that MAP Real Estate has achieved that distinction. That's awesome.
And congrats on Chaz, to make a quick, just clarification point for the listener. And when you say social enterprise, you mean when you do business, immediately, automatically, there's a philanthropic approach or money given away to another person to some benefit but, basically, they're they're intertwined. It's not you're doing business and then you choose to give. It's when business happens specifically, there is a unique connection that when that transaction opens.
That top 10% gets sent, off as a as a social donation That's the 10% is the model that map real estate employees. Yeah. Other points on the spectrum of so enterprise are represented by a company like Tom's Shoes Sure. Yep. Parker eyeglasses, Bamba socks, those 3 companies are called buy 1, give 1, but there's a the the spectrum of social enterprise is broad, and it's getting wider and deeper every day. Yeah. You can be a company like Boeing.
People might not think that Boeing Chaz any business being talked about on the spectrum of social enterprise, and yet it has a remarkably long standing and robust employ philanthropy world within Boeing. Yeah. Yeah. So whether the company has achieve the distinction of being a certified B corporation, whether or not itself identifies as a social enterprise, whether or not it has simply genuine corporate social responsibility activities, which is referred to as CSR.
I'm not talking about aspirational. I'm talking about actually doing Chaz type of company in my book belongs on the spectrum legitimately of social enterprise. 1 of our service marks at map real estate and investing in communities is real simple. And it it may not be grammatically correct, but you'll get the meaning doing business doing good. Yeah. And it it's related to doing well by doing good, which is a more common way of talking about Chaz.
Right. But the idea that I could unavoidable connect My ability to do business and do good Chaz been a very nice thing for my head. Yeah. I think I think that, you know, what you what you've got is obviously just a very automated way to do it, which fantastic. And I think that the encouragement that I would give the listener is that not only for, like, in your case, you wanted to make it for your client. Right?
Like, when the client does business with you, they know that immediately there's purpose. There's a deeper connection. There's a social you know, aspect to it. But I also think as the entrepreneur in order to press into our businesses, especially when it's difficult, especially when it's hard, especially when know, we have to do things that maybe, you know, aren't the everyday type of a thing in a business.
We have to pull Chaz we have to pull on those strings on the inside of us of what touch our purpose. And we have to remind ourselves of why we're doing what we're doing constantly. In fact, to know that is the one thing, but then to remind yourself is is a whole another. So I love how you've just designed a way to remind yourself in essence why you do what you do. And I think that it's it's not only, for the client, but it's it's for you.
And I know you know that for the listener who who hears it too. It's not just to put on a good face, like you said, and say that we do good things. It's just a, an outward manifestation of how it is that you feel as an entrepreneur.
And if you can connect that specifically to like, how you are designed or what your purpose is, man, you wanna talk about, like, waking up every day with, like, a reason to push and a reason to grow your team or reason to grow your business or reason to impact your community. I mean, that stuff will, like, move you forward in a big push. You know what I mean? It's it's good for your heart. I think it's good for your muscles.
I think it's good for you as a human I can only imagine it's not gonna make my life shorter. It has every chance of making my life longer. This is how I like to be in business. That's right. This is how I wanna be on the planet, but let me tell you. And there is, data to support this. I don't have it at my disposal, but I know the data exists. Businesses that have a social mission in addition to their commercial mission have more engaged employees, have more engaged customers and clients.
Totally. And you can make more money by doing business, doing good, and you get to do more good and it's a positive feedback loop. That's reality. Yeah. 100%. That that hit home and, hopefully, that's for listeners Chaz well. Okay. We're gonna transition to the speed round. For these questions, we're gonna try to go one word answers, but I'm notorious for asking follow-up questions. So don't be surprised.
Okay. Speed Brown question number 1 is in your business, what is the main metric that you would pick? If you could only track one thing What would it be? Well, it's how many deals you're getting? Top line sales? Well, I suppose it's a high margin business being in commercial real estate brokerage. Being in any real estate brokerage is a high margin business, I think. Yeah. So so number of deals, I'm a huge fan of, sales being the the main the main metrics. So we're in alignment there.
What book would you recommend that a 6 figure owner read in order to educate themselves? As I shared with you previously, I don't read business books. Probably that's a mistake, but it's a fact. I did, however, find a book very early in my career as an office tenant rep, but the name of the book is negotiating rationally. There you go. Yeah. And it is applicable far beyond the confines of negotiating a real estate transaction. Oh, sure. 100% communication is everything.
It it it really is about understanding what your best alternatives mean to you. What do they cost? Right? And when you're going to negotiate for the target, how can you do that without knowing what the alternatives cost? How do you know when to stop negotiating? How do you know when to know? Oh, I just did a great deal in the negotiations. I got what I wanted and what I needed it's done now. Right. If you don't have the context, it's pretty difficult to figure those things out. 100%.
And I think that applies to all areas of life. You know, my my wife trying to negotiate with me on moving the chicken coop tonight. You know? Like, I don't know if I'm gonna win that negotiation. You know, I don't know if there's too many spots in there. Michael, that, that I'm gonna win on, but, I bet the chicken coop gets moved and why if he will be happy. That's what I know. That's how I'll win.
Yeah. Are you familiar with, these are not syllables that come naturally to old people, but to smart people, I think do. Are you familiar with yes, dear? Yeah. Yes. I am. And You know? Yeah. Use it. Right? Exactly. It's funny because it's on this exact topic, the the chicken, the chicken house. I'll I'll delineate from this and just 3 seconds. Okay, listener, hear about hear my chicken story. Okay? This was, like, a couple of weeks ago. And, we got in a little muddle about the chicken coop.
And, because I really don't enjoy anything to do with the chickens, and she loves them. They're like her babies. She's at, like, 30 of them. And we don't do it for the eggs. We do it for the experience. You know, she loves caring for him. Our daughters help take care. It's it's great all the way around. I just don't wanna be involved. But every time she asks, I say yes. Because that's what I'm supposed to do.
And so we had a little a little muddle about it because I didn't wanna do it, but I was doing it. And, you know, there's there's those moments where you just say yes dear. I just didn't say yes dear and then put a period on it. I I had a yes dear, comma, and some other thoughts. But, I need to take your advice on that and, put a period at the end of that. Yes, Jason. Okay. Next question. Do you intentionally network or mastermind with other entrepreneurs?
I certainly intentionally network, the idea, so yes. If you want one word, the word is yes. What what value do you get from networking? Well, I don't network with other people who do what I do. Okay. It doesn't occur to me that much will come to me as a result of networking with them because they would like to get the deal instead of my getting the deal. Sure. Sure. I network with clients with friends. I love to meet new people.
Hello, Chaz. Yeah. I have been, participating on this, thing called lunch club. I've met now, literally, a couple of 100 new people around the world, actually, I just have a good time talking to people. I talk to people when I'm standing with them in the elevator. Sure. You learn things. I mean, it it really falls under the same heading for me as if I'm walking through the forest and I see a rock that I can pick up Chaz are I'm gonna pick it up and see what's under it.
Yep. Yeah. I'm also gonna find out. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. They they there's a natural curiosity I think to intelligence, really, and you can't learn more if you don't have a desire to know more and you don't have a desire to know more unless you're curious. And so I think that it stems from a place of wanting more. So great. I appreciate that. Last question. You ready? Yep. If you lost it all, what would you do?
If I lost it all in terms of financial wherewithal, I would probably seek to relocate out of the country. To where the standard of living is good and much less expensive. There you go. I have a perfect model, in my oldest brother who is now a citizen of Mexico and has lived there for about 13 years. Wow. Okay. I was gonna ask where are you gonna go? Are you gonna go to Mexico or somewhere else? I I don't know where I would go, actually.
If I lost everything, meaning my health, which is a heck of a lot more important than the cash. That's right. You know, I would, try to be physically comfortable as much as I could. Right. You know, and I would spend even more time looking at minerals and insects and plants and flowers. Taking a walk in the Wolfe. Yeah. That's right. Wolfe, Michael, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here on the show today. If someone wanted to connect with you, how would they find you?
Wolfe, I wish they would find me at Iiconline.org. K. I am the co founder chairman and executive director, all over it. They can find me there, or they can find me at maprealestate.com. It's great. Either place. Yeah. I I just so appreciate your perspective. You know, the ability that you have to look back and, to share with other entrepreneurs, especially, young hustlers out there right now, and, they're they're trying to just, you know, grind, which is that's okay.
There's nothing wrong with that. I think that, there's a perspective for every stage, and you've given us definitely, that perspective here today. So thank you again. We wish you nothing, absolute success in all that you've got going on. Love the social play that you've Chaz for so many years, but almost even trailblazing that for many in the industry. So thank you for all that you do. Thank you, guys. I appreciate that. Thanks for listening to gathering the Kings.
We hope you got a ton of value today and learned a thing or 2 about taking your business to 7 figures and beyond. If you desire more and want a community around you to help you get there, I want you to go to gathering the king's dot com. Gathering the king's dotcom, and I want you to apply for our next becoming a king 90 day intensive.
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