On today's episode of Gathering the Kings. Dave Ramsey helped me get focused on a budget. He helped me see the picture of the debt snowball method. His ideas got me angry at my debt. So these are all good things. That's right. I got to go into Dave and his his teachings that I basically had not just drunk the Kool Aid that was swimming around in it. What if there was a better way? What if there was? Would you wanna know about it? And how much of your money would you wanna put into it?
What's up, everybody? I'm Chaz Wolfe, gathering the king's podcast, coming back to you here today with another king on the stage. My brother, Mark Willis. How we doing? Hey, Chaz. Glad to be on, man. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate you bringing in a conversation that I am just so close knitted to this idea of building wealth in my business, out of my business, all different strategies that I know that you help your clients with.
So I am excited for this conversation. Tell us, I kinda already spilled the beans, but tell us what kind of business that you Yeah. I'm so I've had the great privilege over the last decade and a half almost working with clients who are business owners, real estate investors, even some NFL Super Bowl champions, Chaz, but most of the people I work with are just wanting more control over their financial life.
Many times, they'll come to me saying, hey, Mark, you know, I kinda feel like I'm just a tennis ball floating down the gutter of the financial universe, and I'm just kinda getting beat up and fees getting, like, leeches on my back, just letting the blood out as I go down this this gutter of life, and they want more control. They wanna be able to swim up stream.
They wanna be able to, you know, reach their financial objectives without taking all this unnecessary risk that seems to be endemic in the kind of the Oso average way of doing money this money thing.
Yeah. So, yeah, we I'm a certified financial planner, and I many people refer to me as not your average financial planner because we offer solutions and strategies that are counterintuitive to your typical stock jockeys or investment gurus or radio infotainers, and we help people become, you know, set for life. And become their own source of financing to help them take Chaz control of their own finances. Love it.
Yeah. The the not so average Financial Advisor also name of your podcast, which is a great show. And so they can check you out there as well. We'll put that in the show notes, but you you come with a unique perspective, and and I wanna tell just I wanna set you up here because my first interactions with a financial planner. I was probably 24, 25. I maybe had a business or 2 at that point. And and he wanted me to sit down and and and do the thing.
That you've probably referenced as the other, you know, people. And I just wanted him to tell me what he had done and knowing that he was a business owner, we met at a network thing, like what he had done with his money, and he just thought that was so offensive Chaz I would ask him, really, he had done with his money first I wanted him to show me. I didn't want him just to tell me. I want him to show me.
And I know that that was probably a little bit of a reach for me, a little bit of an agitator, you know, like, However, what you have said is I don't wanna just take money from a person who has w 2, and then they have no other options because as a business owner, can make a lot of money with my money.
I know how to make a lot of money inside of my business or businesses, and so for me to partner or to trust someone in the financial space like you Chaz that can give me extra options that are as good as my business. Is super intriguing, I think, to most everybody in the business space, and everybody listening here today. So I just set you up on a stage. Tell us. Yeah. Why why what like, what about this is so unique?
Well, first of all, you were right to call the chef out into the restaurant to see if he eats his own cooking. Yeah. But that is not a offense. I would I'm surprised that he was not surprised. I'm I'm I'm I recognize why he would have done such a thing, but isn't it very revealing that, hey. You're you have to show your underwear to this guy, not literally, but your financial You have to financially undress, basically, all of your assets and debts and concerns and dreams and goals.
And yet he has to be the stoic priest behind a a veiled curtain or whatever. No. No. Listen. They don't have it all figured out. Okay? No one is the wizard of Oz who can see into the future of what the stock market is gonna do. In fact, there's a reason why they call them investment brokers because the truth is they're probably broker than you are.
So you have to really be careful when you're dealing with financial, again, investment gurus and stock jockeys and people who Wolfe love to tell you that you can get 12 percent a year on your mutual funds and index funds easier than falling off a log. I'm sorry. It's not true. Here's the 3rd party research done by independent studies. Okay. They don't have a dog in this fight.
What would you expect the stock market to have done over a 30 year period, Chaz, if you were to put money into all equities, okay, so that's stock, stock, stocks, no bonds, you know, over over a 30 year period, according to Dalbar, which is the 3rd party research firm out of Boston. They say according to their research that you can get about 3.6% per year out of the stock market, Wow. Over a 30 year period. Wow. Now it's not the 8 to 12 that we hear. Yeah. Exactly. It's shocking.
And what a waste gene over that long a period of time that's hardly keeping up with inflation, certainly not keeping up with today's inflation rates. Yeah. So what's the deal there? And by the way, that is after fees, okay, but before taxes are factored in. So if you take, taxes out of that, we're looking in the middle 2% range out of the stock market. Now your statement, my statement on my 401 k, if I had one, I don't have a 401 k, candidly. Would say, oh, 8% rate of return, 10%.
Well, how is that possible? Here's the truth. Chaz, let's say you have 10,000 bucks in Chaz in a investment. Okay? You put that 10,000 bucks into the magical investment box, and it gives you a amazing 100% rate of return in the 1st year. You went from $10 all the way up to $20.
Yeah. Wow. Your love and life, so you stick with that investment, Unfortunately, in year 2, that $20,000 gets cut in half, a negative 50% market decline You went from 20,000 back down to your original $10,000 after the 2nd year. Jazz, do you feel any wealthier? You put in $10,000. It went up to 20. It came back down to 10. Do you feel any wealthier after all that hard day? I can't I can't imagine so. Not at all. No. So the math works out, you got a 0% return. Right? That's clear.
However, your statement on your, investment statement, would say an average rate of return of 25 percent. Be how is that possible? Again, a 100 minus 50 Divide by 2 is 25%. That's the average. This is what the SEC allows investment statements to report. It's what most investment advisors are taught to talk about with you. But you know, and I know that I cannot spend a rate of return at the grocery store. Yeah. Alright. I can only spend cash and Right.
Your money went up and then down, and you're back at where you started. And, oh, by the way, there probably were some fees given to the investment buddy who was doing all this investing for you. Yeah. He or she was the only one with any guarantees in that project. You assumed all the risk. Now as a business owner, that makes me mad.
I hope I I hope it makes your listeners and you mad as Wolfe, but, you know, this investment scheme gives all the guarantees and power and control away to some other person who can retire before you could on your own money and you're left holding all the bag with all the risk. So you asked a question. What are some options?
Well, there's there's certainly a world of options out side of the stock market outside of the typical, oh, so average ways of investing that I think actually accelerate your goals and your business. I believe in you, man. I think you should believe in yourself. Your business is your own greatest investment. And you are your own personal best asset in your portfolio. Yeah. So by dumping investment into your businesses, you can get a great rate of return.
I don't think the market holds a candle to what you can do. Now there's a lot of risk in in running a business. You know this. I know this. A lot of risk there. So the best research says that you need to counterbalance that business investment like a barbell You know, on one side Chaz your business.
On the other side, it should be a risk free asset that you have liquid access to so that you can grab it when you need to to fund your business ventures or to cover that emergency or to cover that, you know, new opportunity or real estate deal or whatever. Yeah. And that's what I really specialize in. Helping the business owner, counterbalance his or her investment on that side of the barbell.
With the other side of the barbell, which are risk free, even guaranteed assets that are liquid, tax free, or tax advantaged, and under their control, that they don't have to go beg in a bank when it's time to get some access to capital. They can be their own bank and actually fire their banker at the bank down the street and become their own source of financing instead. Yeah. That's pretty powerful. I'm sure that we have the listeners on the edge of their seat. How is this possible?
Okay. Well, let's let's come out of the practicality of of wealth building for a second, and I wanna go into the story of Mark because you've been doing this for a minute. And and by a minute, I mean, you've helped a lot of people and you and making a lot of other people successful, but but particularly you. Why why is this exciting to Mark? Why is wealth building or helping people, or why is money What what is the swirl in your world that makes it go for you? What's the what's the bottom line?
Yeah. You know, I graduated from Graduate school with, 6 figures of student loan debt. Wow. And entered into my married life with a second Wolfe. Her name is Sally May. Uh-huh. Was Sally May? Married my beautiful bride. And also Sally May came along for the ride, and we wanted her out of the marriage, out of the relationship. But we didn't know how, and we graduated in 2008 when they weren't exactly hiring if you think back to what was going on in the economy at that time.
Yeah. So for me and my wife, it was a it was a race to stay alive. It was a and the debt around our neck felt like a a a weight pulling us underwater, and we had to fight, like, every single day to stay above water and and to just survive. And so I know that money is just a thing. It's just a number on a screen or green stuff in your back pocket. It's one of the 4 currencies. You know, there's money. There's also time. There's also energy. There's also attention.
It's why we spend our time with people we love. It's why we pay attention. Right? So it's one of the 4 currencies. And I found that money has so many, like, fingers into every other important area of our life. And I found myself really enjoying those long grab a cigar or grab a drink kinda conversations with people that mattered under the stars And I felt like most of the time, the conversations I was having about my money with with people mattered, you know, it wasn't the money thing.
It was what money allowed me to do or kept me from doing. Yeah. You know, when I was in debt up to my eyeballs, I felt like a slave. Now that I'm more than debt free, I feel like I've got some control and some access and can do wonderful things in the world and can give generously and and run my business and support our employees and more. And so money, it makes you more of who you already are inside. I guess that's maybe one way to think about it.
And so as my wife and I began to develop our own theology and philosophy of money, it really got us thinking, alright. Well, how could we introduce concepts like this to other people such that they were not just better off with an net worth going up because who cares about Chaz? Right? It's just a number. How could we encourage people to live a thriving life where they had a financial statement of purpose where they knew exactly. Alright. Here's exactly what we want our money to do for us.
Here's how we want it act for us rather than us chasing the almighty dollar. Let's get our money thinking and let's think about what we want our money to do for us. Characteristics do we want it to have? You know, do we want it to be tied up into a 401 k where we can't touch it until we're 59a half when we're finally adults in the government's eyes and can access our own money for goodness' sake. So these sorts of things got us really interested.
And so we started the firm Lake Grove Financial Services, And we've been working with clients in all 50 states ever since. Yeah. Love that. Let's let's talk about what you just said about the government dubbing us adults at 59a half and even giving us access to our own money. I love that because I don't like being put in a box, and no entrepreneur does. It's for entrepreneurs, but there is a thing called discipline And so how have you married this idea of discipline, which most don't have?
In addition to that, most entrepreneurs don't because they're a little squirrelly, typically. So, yeah, this this person that doesn't really like doesn't even want discipline, really. That's why they're an entrepreneur. They just wanna do their own Now I'm I'm I'm speaking to I'm not speaking to you, listener. I'm just I'm speaking to the other listener. Right? Then you're speaking to me as the younger person.
Okay. Fine. But how so you're giving me freedom or access, right, to be able to grow my wealth without the box, but where does discipline come in and all this? Because you seem like a pretty disciplined individual. Well, you're exactly right. And this is something I think Again, ties to something much deeper than we probably have time to get into on today's podcast, but there's freedom from, and then there's freedom for.
You know, many people think they want freedom from their w two job because they've been there all these years and they it's a soul sucking existence and They want freedom from the day job or the boss or the mean old, you know, manager or whatever. And then they start their business and then they go bankrupt. Why? Because all they were doing was running away. Yeah. They weren't running toward anything. They were just running away, and you're right.
The only discipline they had was the feeling of pain, any toddler can pull their hand away from a hot stove. That's not discipline. You know, what we want before we start that business? Is to be running question. Someone once said, Mark, there is no rights without a responsibility attached to it. And if you're gonna have freedom, like the freedom of speech or whatever, There also comes with it a responsibility. What is my responsibility to my fellow man or whatever?
If I'm gonna be free to start a business, Well, that's an incredible privilege, but what now is my responsibility? What am I doing this for? Is it for legacy? Is it for my employees? Is it for my children? Is it for the charities I wanna support? What am I doing it for? And then discipline, I think, comes out of that Slowly, but surely we start to say, alright. You know what? I'm not gonna blow this money on the latest software or ice cream cone. I'm gonna go after something that's gonna last.
And Wolfe actually help build and grow my business. So I don't know. That's my best answer. Yeah. In a short time frame. There's lots more we could talk about there. I'm I love it. I I wanna bring maybe a maybe a good name, maybe a maybe a, you know, polarizing name to the conversation here, but some of the things he just said as far as staying away from NICE Room or the the proverbial latte, it sounds a little Dave Ramsey.
And so how how how does that maybe really conservative approach fall into what you do with entrepreneurs. I know there's a lot of people that love and hate that philosophy, where do you stand? Well, you know, hey, he Dave Ramsey helped me get focused on a budget. He helped me see the picture of the debt snowball method. His ideas got me angry at my debt, so these were all good things. That's right. I got to go into Dave and his his teachings Chaz, basically, had not just drunk the Kool Aid.
I was swimming around in it. And my mentor sat me down one afternoon. He'd traveled. He was a professor from my college. He came over to visit us in Chicago. He knew I was drowning and all that student loan debt. He knew I was a Dave Ramsey, you know, disciple. And he looked at me, and he said, Mark, I have something important to talk to you about, and he started to explain this strategy that ultimately changed my financial life and my family tree. Wolfe.
But at first, he had to say Mark He looked at me right in the eye and he said, Mark, is it possible that Dave Ramsey could be wrong about something? And you just let that question hang there in the air. Uh-huh. And you could hear the cracking sound of my mind opening, finally opening because I had always just thought, oh, Dave Ramsey. Dave Ramsey.
Yeah. He he he wrote the 5th gospel on money with, you know, he brought it all down from the from the mountain top, and it's everything he says drips with honey and truth. That's right. It's it's not true. Unfortunately, he's human. I guess, you know, that's an obvious statement, but I needed someone to say that to me. ARC, is it possible? And Chaz, to me, I think, is the most important thing. You cannot have a financial guru in your life. You must be your own financial guru.
Nobody's gonna care more about your money than you do. Yeah. Not Dave Ramsey. Dave Ramsey doesn't even have a financial license. He has a radio license, but he does not have any financial licenses. He let those go a long time ago. He's a radio infotainment, and that's okay. So does he have my bestest interest at heart? Well, of course not. He's a radio guy. My job is to really think for myself and ask critical thinking questions.
And that's something I just hadn't done, with with mister Dave, or Susie Orman or pick your infotainers out there today, Jim Kramer. So these are all things that I think really we have to decide. What is it that they're saying that's helpful? Chaz is it that's not helpful and let's discern critical thinking skills? Yeah. I love I love that to that answer. Yeah. I'm turning this into a mindset question for you, but Chaz response was well thought out. And so thank you for Chaz.
And it was it was very balanced in the way of, yes, and. And so for you, there's a maturity that gets there because someone who maybe hasn't gotten there maybe sees that answer as like, a tickling of the ears on both sides. You know what I mean? Like, oh, it's just a really well thought out answer, and it, like, it served kind of both answers.
I see that it was mature in the response of I like some things, but I don't have to like all of the things, which is really in today's political environment, business environment. I mean, that that's just, like, you have to pick a side, and I don't actually yeah. I don't agree with that at all. And it sounds like from your answer Chaz you don't agree with that, What is that mindset, or where does that stem from for you? Well, listen. He calls him the baby steps. Okay? Baby steps.
If if I was just a baby, then taking baby steps makes great sense. Right. If I was only able to do baby steps now, at my age, that would my doctor would be concerned. Yeah. Okay. Could be a problem. So let's put Dave where he belongs, you know, and say, alright. Maybe there's something beyond what he has to share with me. Yeah. Right? So I'm I'm happy that he got me focused and mentally, like, in the right gear to pay off my debt rather than chasing the ice cream cone.
I'm now chasing the payoff of the debt. Here's where things I disagreed vehemently with Dave Ramsey on a few topics. And if you want, I can dive into those. I'd I'd be tickling the years too. I'm sure some audience members. So one is the debt snowball method. Alright? So I was following that method And listen, he tells you to get a thousand bucks and to leave it in your savings account. Well, how many expenses can you think of that are gonna be costing you more than a thousand bucks?
Pretty much all. How many times did I fall back into debt? Cause, you know, I had an emergency while I'm trying to pay off all this $120,000 of student loan debt, Right. I get a flat tire or 2, and I'm I'm following back following back down into credit card land. Okay. So that's my first problem. The second is every time I spend a dollar, and this is maybe the wake up call of my financial adult life, you finance everything you buy. Alright. You finance everything you buy.
You can either pay interest to a bank for a car Right. Write a payment on the car loan or whatever. You pay interest to the banker for the car, or you save up and pay cash and you pass up the interest you could have earned on that money had you not bought the car and left the money invest and stay invested instead? Yeah. You're financing it from your future self when you pay cash. And that is devastating. It is. Let's say your car was 40 grand. $40 for a car these days. You know?
Wolfe, that's if you paid cash for a a car, Yeah. The sticker price said $40,000, but, you know, that might end up costing the expense of Chaz, the lost opportunity cost of that $40,000 in your savings or investment account. Yeah. Might be a $150 over your lifetime. Yep. That's for one stinking car. That's scary. You know, multiply that out over 8.10 cars, and we're talking about a million bucks just for cars. My biggest problem is the lost opportunity that comes from paying cash.
And so I had to find myself. I was struggling because I was in this quandary. How do I pay off my student loans? What's better than the debt snowball method? We eventually trademarked it. We now call it the debt snowbank method, which I could share with you if you want, but it had major ramifications for my my wife and I, and we had to ultimately grow beyond the guru on the radio.
Yeah. Well, yes, we want you to tell us the snowbank method before we do the everything that you just said and this is for the listener because me being an entrepreneur in multiple different industries, and having, you know, quasi level of success at a fairly young age. Everything that that Mark just said is exactly what I know to be true because they're every decision that I make because I'm a very very disciplined entrepreneur.
And I and I I'm calculating decisions like this that you just described, and I'm going, well, I can't. I don't even wanna buy it at all. You know? And and and really, I have to give myself a little gray sometimes to to spend the money on the things that bring us joy because I'm so calculated in the things that are gonna either make me more money or provide a a a future wealth benefit to my grandchildren where I the $40,000 car or the $150,000 car, I'm like, that would be silly.
I've talked about being able to buy a Lambo cash for years now. It's like, well, But why would I ever do that? Like, just oh my gosh. Like, I'm just thinking of the 1,000,000 of dollars that that represents in real estate or another asset. That my grandkids are being robbed so that I could drive some fancy cars. Like, okay. Well, maybe one day, maybe one day when it just doesn't matter, and I'm just, like, swimming in it. I don't know. But, like, As of right now, I'm just super calculated.
So everything that you're saying, I'm just like, yes. Now with that being said, hurry up quick. Tell us this snowbank. This method. Wolfe, hey. You gotta buy stuff in life. You know, there there's not like we're gonna just live and starve ourselves into prosperity here. So there's gonna be We gotta get around town. We gotta invest in that real even even investing in real estate. So I wanted to find, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna buy a bunch of stuff in life because life costs money. That's right.
And plus I wanted to find good ways to invest and not just be debt free. I want it to be better than debt free. Wanting to call Dave Ramsey up and scream. I'm better than that parade. So I said to myself, well, what can I do that's better than this snowball method? And Again, I stumbled across this strategy. It's it's referred to as bank on yourself, and it uses of all things, jazz.
It uses a two hundred year old asset that's grown in value every year guaranteed, literally in the contract, they have a increased, guaranteed in the contract every year. It's dividend paying Wolfe life insurance of all things. Yeah. And as you know, right now, if you're like me as a Dave Ramsey disciple, formerly known as, My mind immediately shut off when my mentor told me about bank on yourself. Yeah. I thought, okay. Well, Dave Ramsey says it must be wrong, so it must be true.
And that's when the the proverbial question. Mark, is it possible that Dave Ramsey could be wrong about something? Yeah. That started that question started me on a 7 month digging experience. Exploration process, and I found that if it's designed properly, this particular design of Wolfe life insurance can do some pretty remarkable things. I was very compelled, and now as a certified financial planner, I can't look away from it. It's a very interesting strategy.
It's not a good fit for everybody. Let me briefly Chaz explain what it is, and then I'll tell you how the debt snowbank method fits in. So we can do this really quick. I'll try to do this in just a few minutes. There's a rabbit hole that you could go down here. I'm sure. If it's properly structured, we'll call this bank on yourself type Wolfe life insurance, because not all whole life insurance is created equal or designed properly. Right.
If it's designed properly, first, The cash value, which is different than the death benefit. So there's a there is certainly a death benefit with these policies, but there's also something called cash value. And the cash value is what we can access on this side of the grass. Let's say Wolfe we're alive. Okay? So that cash value is liquid and available with no tax due if we design it properly for any purpose at any age for any reason.
So I can use the cash value for you know, real estate investing. I can use it for buying my car, paying off my student loans, fixing up my kitchen, sending my kid to college, you know, a business acquisition or inventory purchase, whatever I wanna use that money for, there's no prohibited transactions. I can be thirty nine years old or fifty nine years old. There is no government telling me I have to be a certain age to get access to this money. It's my money. Okay? So that's the first piece.
2nd, The cash value itself grows, as I said, on a predictable, even guaranteed schedule, so I know every single year, no matter what's happening in the world or or in the stock market, my money is gonna be more than it was last year. I'll have a higher net worth on a guaranteed basis every single year And if we build it properly, they can throw dividends on top of that guarantee as well.
3rd, it is life insurance, so I'm gonna leave my family what I wanna save for them and leave for them more than I could put into the policy automatically because it's designed to be life insurance. And then the final piece, and this is the very interesting piece for me as a business owner, I can use that cash value like a line of credit to myself. It's almost like a bank for myself. Right.
I can borrow against my cash value, and the policy itself will continue to grow and compound as if I had not touched the money. So let me give you a quick example, and then I'll hush and get your feedback on all this. Let's say I have a $100,000 in cash value. So that's free and clear. I can do whatever I want it. I can withdraw that money and just cash it out and walk away. It's my money.
Or I can borrow against that cash value Let's say I borrowed against the $100,000 of cash value to go buy a $40,000 car because I had to do it. Yeah. Alright? My policy will continue to compound and grow on the full $100,000, even on the 40 grand I'd use to go buy the car. Right. And now I'm in control to repay that loan to the policy that I own and control at whatever pace and rate I wish.
So that that's the big picture, guarantees liquidity, tax advantages, and continuous compound growth on our money for the rest of our lives. Hey, Kings and Queens. Chaz Wolf. I wanna talk to you about something that's super important to me. We put a lot of time and effort. We, meaning myself and my team, into this podcast into the content that goes out every single day. And if you have been getting any sort of value or insight from this, We want it to be able to reach other business owners too.
So we would love if you would like, comment, share, leave a review, post, share again all of the things on social media, on all the different platforms, or even on the podcast mediums of Apple and spot we would love to be able to get our content into more hands, more entrepreneurs so they can grow their business as quick as possible. Together, we are building a community of like minded entrepreneurs who are committed to growing their businesses to new heights. So let's do this.
Let's help each other. Let's help each other grow. Yeah. We're in the portfolio as someone's building because it it seems as if maybe this is one of the foundation pieces, and then all the other moves can come out of this is what I'm hearing you say. But for someone who maybe has already, you know, made some moves, maybe they got a couple businesses or uses of real estate, and they're thinking, okay. This is maybe the first time I've heard this. Where how do I start putting this into motion?
Nasseem Talib, he wrote a book called the anti fragile anti fragile. It's the name of the book. K. And he talks about this barbell strategy. So on one side of the barbell, you have a risk asset like your business or even a real estate deal. Mhmm. And then on the other side, you put a risk free asset, which would be whole life insurance. Anything with a contractual guarantee is gonna be on the risk free side of the of the spectrum.
So these policies are never gonna give us you know, double digit rate of return, really. We're gonna be middle single digit, boring, regular, steady as she goes kind of returns. But it's that compounding that doesn't stop that really entices me. Right. So if I'm gonna get 5%, let's say, on my policy, for the rest of my life, on on an ongoing basis, Even when I tap that money, it's still gonna grow at the same rate and pace, and then I can go take that money and go buy a business with it.
Chaz might give me 50% rate of return or 30%. Now I've just increased my market return without any additional you know, beta or or risk or volatility. That to me is a a storehouse for my Wolfe, for 1 and then a line of credit for myself to go make opportunities, actualized in the real world. Yeah. Love it.
What you've done is you've taken this and made it very, very particular for this, you know, risky individual who, you know, calls himself a a business owner or an entrepreneur, I love the approach of being balanced. I think that most people, especially ones that leave a job and open up a business or 2 or 3 or 10, are kinda just running fast with the arrow fire of this direction.
And we always think that it would be, like, like, whether it's a half second or whether it's multiple, you know, moments that we spend thinking that it would be probably wise to kinda cover our backside or make sure that our grandchildren have something. But oftentimes, the entrepreneur isn't thinking this way until maybe they just have just major surplus. So what would you say to the guy listening right now or the gal listening right now that's a little bit earlier in their journey?
And they don't have gobs of money to maybe start a policy with. And how did how did they go about it? Sure. Well, that was me. And I'll go ahead and wrap up with the snowbank explanation in a brief as well, and I'll be brief about But, yeah, that was me. My wife and I were and Chaz I said, in debt up to our eyeballs, we didn't have really much in the way of savings except that wonderful $1000 that Dave Ramsey made sure we had. So we just started what we could.
What we did, and here's the debt snowbank method. Step 1, we we kept current on all of our debts. So we didn't go behind on anybody. Step 2, instead of throwing all of our extra cash flow into our student loans, instead of doing Chaz, we instead opened up some whole life policies designed this way, this bank on yourself way, and we flooded those suckers with as much money as we could pack in, as much as we could handle as comfortably could.
There's a lot of flexibility with how you fund these things, could be a couple hundred bucks a month. Could be a couple thousand bucks a month. It's a 100 of 1000 of dollars a year. You know, really, there's a lot of flexibility with how you design these. But for my wife and I, it's all we could do to throw a couple hundred bucks a month into to 1 or 2 of those to get started. And our student loans were coming down slowly.
Our policies were growing quickly as we were flooding that those policies with as much money as we could, so the debt was coming down. The policy's value was going up And one by one, we would just borrow against our policies to wipe out our debts. So we were wiping out our student loans yet the policy was continuing to grow as if we had not borrowed the money against the policy, so we were better than debt free. Right? Now we're banking on ourselves.
We bought back our student loans from, you know, the snakes at Sally May's office, and now we're paying ourselves back And so we didn't. And then we've since paid off that student loan to ourselves, and now we're better than debt free. We've since used that money, of course, to use it for you know, house down payments and business acquisitions and car purchases, trips, you know, a month long trip to Hawaii. That was a lot of fun.
So it can be as simple as sitting down with someone like myself or one of my colleagues who can look at your financial situation. And see if this is even the right fit. You know, it's it's not a good fit for everybody, so keep that in mind. Again, if if you cannot save, Or if you just need triple digit returns with every penny you have, you're gonna be bored to tears with whole life insurance at all.
Even bank on yourself design policies, we cut the cut expenses and commissions out of these things as much as possible, but they're still gonna be slow growing, you know, as compared to the best year of the stock market. Right. But it's a slow and steady wins the race kind of strategy. Yep. So, yeah, a couple hundred bucks a month is probably where it would start. Or if you have some money already set aside in savings, I just helped a young couple in their mid twenties.
They got some money from their wedding. And they're starting that policy with the money from their wedding. You know, it could be even simple stuff like that. So and what a cool thing to have compound growth for the rest of your marriage, rest of your life. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think there's a lot of value there. I think that a listener is at least intrigued. And so, of course, like you said, they should reach out and get more information for sure.
We'll We'll give them that opportunity in the show notes. But let's talk about your journey again. Now you've gotten into business, and you're you've got the the the the bank process that you just described, but now you're a business owner on top of it. Give us something practical inside of you building that business where it's just been a good decision. It can be financial related or maybe just, you know, like, system wise.
Give us something that we can repeat inside of our own businesses that you would keep doing over and over if you had a chance. Yeah. Processes, I think, are what save us from the poverty of our intentions. Somebody said that, and I can't remember who the Chaz was good. Say that again. Yeah. Well, pro processes save us from the poverty of our own intentions. Yeah. And there's a quote out there. Someone can look that up to figure out who said that quote.
You know, originality is just for getting your sources, Chaz, as you know. So, yeah, but it's so true. You know, I might have the intention to whatever lose weight, but there's that really nice bag of chips over there, man, and it looking pretty good. But if I have a process like, hey. You know, I'm gonna, you know, only eat after 3 PM every day or something, and that's my process.
And I I just automatically fall into that process, right, then it's easier for me to walk past that bag of chips or bowl of ice cream. And same is true with our business. If we have a process, then it's, you know, we have a process, let's say, to follow-up on a lead, for example, every Monday at 10 AM, I'm gonna call brand new potential leads, then I don't have to wake up and how do I feel today and how do I what should I do and Hey. That that daytime TV is looking really cool today.
So, no, you just bypass all that mess and you follow your process. And oftentimes Chaz can result in in success. I have a feeling you have some ideas on this too, Chaz. What do you think about process as far as success goes? Wolfe, I appreciate the the turn of the question there. Obviously, process are are huge. And like you said, it's easy to walk by the bowl when you have, a process, it's also easy to create a process to remove the bowl. You know? Well said, yeah.
Yeah. And both both are the same thing, though. We're we're we're setting up our life ahead of time. So that way in the moment we make the right decision. And so for you, inside the business, I mean, you've get you've given us several, like, pieces here in a row of, like, how we can do that early or even if we're already successful financially with the the snowbank method inside of the business for you was that was that the following on leads.
Was Chaz, like, what was that where you, like, once we did this, it, like, took off? Yeah. You know, it it really became How do we how do we have important conversations in a way that happen on purpose? So when you have a financial business like I have, You're really in the business of moments with folks. That's right. Mhmm. Because what what you have to help them do is crack open their mind like I had mine cracked open.
And in that process, they think of things differently, and that's why we started our podcast. So every Friday, we drop an episode as far as since 2017. And we're just trying to keep up with you, Chaz. I mean, you're way ahead. 400 plus. We're in the mid 300, so we're just trying to keep up. But the process of 1 once a week drop in that episode.
Yeah. Introducing a concept that might just be the moment for somebody Chaz that is the trick, though, because once we have a one on one conversation with that person, we wanna consistently say, hey. Have you thought about dot.dot. Here's a case in point. One of the questions that I regularly ask folks when I sit down with them for a one on one advisory meeting is Hey. I noticed that you're maxing out your 401 k. Congratulations. Wonderful job living within your means. I'm just curious.
Where do you think taxes over your lifetime are going? Are they going to go down or are they gonna go up? And they all say up, They all say taxes are going up, and then I just ask them, is that a concern for you? Are you familiar with how this 401 k will be taxed in retirement? Yeah. And they think there's this pause. You can hear the mind sizzling a little bit. And they say, wow. You know, I've never thought about that. And I say, well, you know, do you want to tax your seed or your harvest?
So And they think about that. And there's some more moments. Okay? So our entire conversation where I'm digging in to under understand their cons maybe they'll tell me that they wanna pay taxes on their seed today, but did you know that every 401 k is gonna get taxed on the harvest? It's right almost to a person. Everyone wants to be a tax free harvest. So their money is going into things that they don't always understand.
And so those moments need to be sit into a set into a system or a process so I don't forget to ask that question for Johnny. If I ask Susie that question, how do I have that? I've got, you know, paperwork questions that I'm sure I'm gonna check through these questions. As I have the meetings with folks. It's been a lot of fun, and their responses are the best parts.
Yeah. I can only imagine an entrepreneur, again, maybe it might be different for, you know, w w two employee, but even if taxes didn't go up, would that person Chaz a business owner anticipate that they would be making more or less themselves, which then is going to change their tax bracket. Great point. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. Here here's hoping. That you're making more money. And here's hoping your investments did well enough that that pushes you into a higher bracket in the future too.
So you're exactly right. Yeah. We We we don't oftentimes understand the second order consequences of our actions. Right? Wolfe, and and I've just learned, you know, through investments already that you can defer, but eventually, you're just gonna make enough to where and, I mean, unless you're just buying Jets and on Jets and Jets and Jets and Jets, You're gonna have to pay tax at some point, my man. So Right. You I mean, what?
Why why why push it off later when it's gonna be a higher a higher percent. Right? I think that's Yeah. What does the word defer mean? I think sometimes just getting back to definitions. If I defer my root canal, how is that gonna end up for me? Right. Yeah. Well, I think it takes it actually back to control, which you started this whole thing off by saying the reason why you work with entrepreneurs a lot of times is because we wanna have control. And so That's right.
A lot of times, you know, business owners don't work with a financial planner because it doesn't feel like we're in control. And and working with someone like you with a methodology like this, it's like, okay. Well, not only have you put us back in the driver's seat, but you're actually giving us strategies specifically today to work our money today differently Chaz actually gives us more control. Again, it's betting on me.
I'd rather I'd rather pay the tax now and bet on me now as opposed to hoping and praying for the future. Wouldn't you agree? Yeah. I mean, we're recording this right before Halloween. Let me give a quick metaphor. Okay? And I'll be brief as I can about this, but let's say you and me are gonna go trick or treating together. Okay? And, you know, I'm not exactly a giant maybe folks are only listening to this. I'm not a giant, you know, like, a bulking dude. I'm I'm okay.
I'm I'm trying to hold my own weight here, but I'm not a big dude. And we go out trick or treating and these bullies show up you to to, you know, intimidate us. And they say, hey, Chaz. Hey, Mark. You know, you can go trick or treating. That's fine. But when you come back, we're gonna take some of that candy of yours, and we're kinda shaking in our boots and we're like, okay. I guess that's okay. Well, how much of our candy can we keep when we get back from all of our trick or treating?
And the bullies because they hadn't thought through this part. They sort of look at each other, and they're like, you know what, Mark? Chaz, we're gonna vote on how much of that candy we take when you get back. Now please understand how preposterous that would sound. How how motivated would you feel, Chaz? To even collect the candy. Right? If you didn't even know how much of it was even yours that's right.
And do you realize I just described the 401 k with the IRA because Congress has not yet voted on how much of that 401 k they own yet, and they won't vote on it until you're retired, and you can't do anything about it. So these are the things that I think lose the motivation, especially for the business owner, especially. It certainly loses our feeling of control because we can't even tap that money. And what if there was a better way? What if there was? Wolfe you wanna know about it?
And how much of your money would you wanna put into it? Yeah. Great questions. Okay. Let's let's flip the coin here. Let's talk about something that you've done Chaz just that was darn near detrimental. It almost shut down the whole thing. I don't know. Give us some deals. Yeah, man. There's there's so many. Oh, it's like, alright. It's Monday. Am I gonna, you know, there needs to be, like, a days days since the last accident sign on my in on my front door. You know?
Yeah. I think the main piece is regularly choosing to muscle forward without asking people for help is the quintessential problem I have in my business. K. So how can I fire myself? How can I let somebody else do it? 80% as well as I could do it? Yeah. Let them have it. I've learned now since then strategic ignorance, I'm thinking in particular of the paperwork part.
I thought I would be able to fill out the paperwork faster with fewer mistakes, and that was slowing me down because I would be sitting there doing paperwork when I should have been having those strategic conversations with folks. That's right. And so, you know, what I've learned now is strategic ignorance. If you can be ignorant, then you can relieve yourself of a lot of the obligation. So someone once said, Mark, if you don't know how to start the lawn mower, you don't have to cut the grass.
And I love that. I love that. So how can I help somebody else do it 80% as well as I could? Because, you know, our our our mon entrepreneurial messiah complexes, we all think we can do it better than anyone But the truth is if we can just give ourselves a little grace and give our staff a little bit of grace, if they can do it 80% as well, just let them have it. Let them fail forward. They'll be happier. You'll be happier, and you'll grow as a result. Yeah. Love it.
It's a it's a it's a thick answer, and I could press on you on Chaz, but, man, seems like there's been there's been some circumstances there. I think that the paperwork thing is just such an easy, like, across all industries. If you're listening right now doing any sort of paperwork, as an entrepreneur, there's just it's just there's just so many more higher lever activities for for markets, you know, having strategic conversations.
This being one of them, you know, This is what CGU conversations look like in 2023. Right? So I appreciate that. Okay. I've got a question for you about family because you you've given us very, very, you know, what I would even say wholesome perspective on money and making decisions, Chaz an entrepreneur, we're all in. And I can already feel that. The energy that you bring to this even to this call, like, I'm sure your your pod is just the same, but, like, you're in it. I can feel it.
But how have you been able to go all in with marriage, family, you know, health? Like you said, you're trying to get maybe a little bit bigger. How are you obsessed in those things at the same time? Because I don't believe in balance. I don't know. You're pretty conservative. What do you think? You know, I literally was gonna say I don't believe in balance, so that's crazy that you were saying that. Balance in physics is just overcorrecting the last mistake you made.
You know, if you think about it, if you're on a tight wire or whatever, a high wire, you're just overcorrecting your last mistake and back and forth, and balance is not in and of itself a goal. It it most of the time, you're you're walking somewhere. You know, even every step you take is a balancing act on the floor, That's right. But you're hopefully moving in the right direction.
And in fact, that should be my hope is that for your entrepreneurial, on audience Chaz your balance is leading to an end somewhere. You know, balance ultimately will will be it's fine. And, ultimately, you know, when you're dead, that's the ultimate balance because you're, like, at one with nature, literally. Yeah. Yeah. So balance brings me to abundance is what I aim for. Like, I think you'd be the same.
I'd I'd love to know your thoughts on this, but how can I have a life where I love my wife more every day? How can I be a the kind of man where my family loves to be around me? How can I be in the best shape I've ever been in my life? I write these out every single morning, these and several other affirmations, because I want that to be the focus or, I guess, the the end goal of the balance that I seek to achieve. I I check out every 4:30 PM.
I'm done with this work thing, and I'm on the dad duty. You know, I wanna be with my with my daughter. Wanna spend time with my my family. And so I do find that time balance, but it's for the purpose of abundance. Give me your thoughts on on that, though. What do you think? Yeah. I think that you gave a it's just a really, really great response. I mean, I think that you're you're headed towards something.
For us in even especially inside of Gathering and the Kings, we call it the exceptional life. And the exceptional life is made up all of these different areas. And so you've done a great job here. It's business finance. It's it's marriage, it's family, It's spiritual. It's it's, lifestyle. It's health, emotional, physical. I mean, all these different dimensions, as we say, of kingship, matter.
But I but if I'm if I'm actually focused on balance, like you said, then I'm not focused on getting who, too, or toward the exceptional life, I'm I'm worried about am I spending the same amount of time in balance or in in business as I am in family or the same amount at the gym as I am with my family. I said, well, wait a second. I don't actually need to spend 8 hours at the gym like I do my business, so I can't actually balance this. How this is not even possible any any longer. So Right.
Someone just goes like a a layer or 2, you know, I think it it it illuminates quite a bit like you're saying. It sure does. And if we do it right, we'll look like hypocrites, you know, because You know, we honestly will never be able to achieve. I think, you know, the the best picture I have in my mind for where this all goes is a rocket ship. You know, you know, there's so much packed potential in the core of that rocket ship, all the fuel, and everything.
And to lift off the ground, it needs balance, but it's not just sitting there to levitate, it's sitting there to go to the moon or wherever you wanna take that rocket ship. Also, the concept of potential comes into play here because If you just sit on that rocket launch pad for decades, that's a shame. You know? Yeah. But you need to activate your potential and really building toward a goal. And, honestly, that's what helps you balance.
If you think about it, like, if you're always staring at your feet when you're on that tight wire, or high wire or whatever they call it, you're more likely to fall. But if you're looking forward, you know, toward the the end goal, oftentimes, I can balance better. I don't know if that's a human thing or not, but yeah.
It seems to be when you're an entrepreneur, if you're focused on today and the problems of today and finding balance today, you'll stress yourself out But your mastermind, your podcast, it's helping all of us get a sense of where we could go, to become more than the person we are today, which I think is what it means to activate our potential. Yeah. Love it. I got one last question here for you, Mark.
I wanna know if you had the chance to reach back in a time and you tap the younger mark on the shoulder and you whisper in his ear. What do you tell that guy? You know, I've I've been asked this question before. I've thought about it too. It's really I don't know. Cause I there's nothing that I would say. I guess you get to choose your regrets in life.
But I don't really think there's anything I would want to say to to a younger mark because the trials, the troubles, the joys, the surprises, Right. Are all part of what helps us here. Yeah. I I guess I'll try to get it down the ladder some, and I would say, hey. You know, don't be afraid to start big. I think my biggest problem was I started with dipping my toe in. Yeah. And, yeah, I had to get over my own bias and my own fears, really, of starting a business.
Yeah. But by listening to my wife and kinda listening to people who were cheering me on. Starting a business was one of the best financial moves we ever made. It's changed our family tree and more. Yeah. And, yeah, there's gonna be failures But, man, dive in. Don't just dip your toe in. You'll end up being happier. As a result, even if you're just selling lemonade for 3 years, if you'd dive in Wolfe hog, right, you're gonna be successful.
If you just hone in and don't waiver between 2 different you know, lives, you know, you can't keep that day job if you're gonna go whole hog on this business thing, for example. Love the answer. Love your poise. Where can the listener find you number 1? You've already mentioned your show. Give us the deets on that Chaz well as if they are interested in having a conversation with you on this snowbank methodology or just how they can build wealth with you. How can they find you?
Yeah. Yeah. The snowbank method uses something called bank on yourself. Type Wolfe life. That's a that's a trademark term by Pamela Allen. She wrote the book behind me bank on yourself. Revolution. You guys can check that book out if your readers If you like podcasts, listen to our show. It's called not your average financial podcast. That's not your average financial podcast.
And if you wanna chat with me and imagine what it would look like to have this strategy of bank on yourself, incorporate into your life, your business, Reach out. I'd be happy to chat or one of my colleagues and I could meet with you. For 15 minutes to answer questions, you can find me at Kickstart with Mark. Dotcom. That's kickstart with mark with a k.com. Love it. We'll put all that in show notes as well.
So if you've listened here today and thought Mark is a sharp guy like I have, then you should be able to find his information below and connect with him easily. Mark. Wow. You're an incredible human. You have, so much momentum. I can just feel it. It it seeps out of your your being. Thank you for being here. Blessings to your family, blessings to your business, and all the clients that you're helping and and, of course, your show I'm sure that's gonna continue to grow as well.
Thanks for being here, buddy. Thanks, Jess. Thank you for listening to gathering the Kings today. I hope that you were able pull out a few nuggets to go apply into your business right away. More importantly, though, I hope that you're realizing that it takes more to be successful than just being by yourself doing it all on your own, carrying the weight all by yourself.
What I have realized, not only in my own journey from multiple businesses in multiple different industries, and now interviewing over 2 or 300 other very successful 7, 8, and 9 figure business owners is that It's tough to do it alone. And so gathering the Kings exists to bring together successful entrepreneurs. In fact, we are putting together 1000 kings, specifically who are grateful, but not done.
We're intentionally assembling kings who fight tooth and nail for their business, family, and communities, and here's what we believe Chaz in the suit of excellence in those areas Chaz it ignites within us the responsibility to govern power and forge a lasting legacy. So if that relates and and resonates with you and you know that you need people around you, sharp qualified other very successful business owners. I want you to go to gatheringthekings.com.
I want you to take a look at what we're doing and see if it makes sense for you to be part of our pursuit to 1000 kings. Talk soon.