On today's episode of Gathering the Kings. What are you not good at potentially and or what do you not wanna do? You know, what are the things that you really are passionate about? You like doing. And what's the thing that you have to, again, self reflect? What are you just doing because you have to do it?
Not because you really like to do if you really look at your day and start to carve out your way, you're spending your time, you're always sort of naturally leaning towards the stuff that you wanna do. So do that and then find somebody who's even better than you at those other things because they're out there.
You are listening to Gathering the Kings with Chaz Wolfe featuring fellow 78 and even 9 figure business owners who have real battle scars from business and life, but have prevailed as the king that they are designed to be. We welcome high performing entrepreneurs to the stage in order to reveal the real of the real on what it takes to build a successful business today.
We dissect the good and bad decisions they've made along the way Chaz give a true and accurate picture of the journey of success and how you, too, can get there. Through this dialogue, you will learn the value of growing your network and surrounding yourself with power players and keys like today's guest. Grab your pen and notebook because we're about to dive in. What's up, everybody? Chaz Wolf. I'm back. This week, my guest, Lucas McCann is in the association space.
I'll tell you what, this one's a unique one, but he brings a Wolfe another perspective into a a, especially an industry that we haven't talked about a whole lot on the show, but I'll tell you what, his struggles in business that he's super honest about are the same ones you're dealing with. I guarantee it. So grab that pen and paper. He gives some incredible insight. Here it comes. Alright, everybody. I'm Chaz Wolfe. I'm your host, gathering the Kings. I got Lucas McCann at the show today.
Welcome, my friend. Welcome. Hey. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. I'm so excited because I get to talk about, your business, and I'm familiar with your business. There we go. But we don't know each other's super well. So I'm I'm just so excited to get into all the nitty gritty of all this stuff you have going on because we we've known each other from a distance. We did that we did that one event together a couple years ago, but The jazz zoo. Yeah, we broke some bread.
And then, had a few conversations about business, talking about different things going on, but, yeah, this is a nice huddle. Yes. Exactly. Chaz that's kind of what my what my thought was as well. First off, tell the audience what kind of business that you have and what you're working with. Yeah. So we, have a couple of businesses, both work within the trade and professional Association Markets.
So we are a fractional resource for that industry, whether they need to build a portfolio of partners, that can help bring value to their memberships and their members, whether they want to talk about outsourcing development and that could be development of membership. Sponsorships, exhibits, ad sales, and then we do, some great consulting, strategic planning, membership reviews type of things for some top tier organizations.
I've been working in the industry for almost 20 years, hard to believe. But built some great relationship. I I'm addicted to the industry, if you will. There's 80,000 plus associations, in the US alone. So Yeah. You know, if I could get 10% under booked, that'd be great. Yeah. I love that. I mean, I love it. Exactly. Exactly. I love so I'm I'm glad you said associations because man, you used a lot of really, really well thought out words.
But in essence, you help associations freaking blow the top and and you can help them in a lot of different ways. And I love that about what you offer. You can help them in more than just one way. So I'm curious you know, like because I've I've I've watched your journey from afar, and some of it's been through sheer grit and going after the market. You've, like you said, you've been in the industry for a Wolfe.
Of it's been through acquisition, but, like, at this level in the game, you know, at the 7 figure plus mark, you know, the majority of people would consider that you've made it. Right? But I'm curious, the motivation of, like, why continue to push now? Like, why are you guys still planning on growing more? Like, what what's the motivation there? Why? Yeah. A good question. So we we get into these conversations with these executives, and I just I like solving problems.
I like having the conversation at that level and Hey. What's going on in your industry? What's going on in your association? What are your members are saying? And it always leads, you know, it's, self serving. Maybe starts with, hey. What are you doing with membership sponsorship. Right? And then we go into just some general banter and they go, oh, actually, I'm I'm also struggling with this. I I I need to outsource my accounting. You know, for example, I'm looking for a tax professional.
We wanna do something with our asset. We own a building in DC, your old town, Alexandria, wherever it is, and you know, we're looking for that. And so I I immediately, you know, wanna sort of jump in and and how do we help? Right? And so we're we're sort of building an ecosphere at the right speed, to sort of have more opportunity to capitalize on being able to help others within the industry where it makes sense, and where we think we can be the best in the industry.
We don't wanna just sort of, you know, jump at something because it's there, run to the shiny dime. But, you know, if we can be the best in the industry at it, we and that's something we look to to do and whether through acquisition or you know, buyer build sort of thing is always on the on our mind. Yeah. A 100%. And so just to delineate a little bit there, like, what I heard you say is your first action is to serve.
And so being inside of your industry, obviously, serving an association, they could have of different needs. And so in essence, you've put together a partner list for lack of better terms. And and that's how you're able to provide value. And so how does someone on the other side of the the ear pods today listening to you and I talk? How do they get to that place because I feel like at this point, again, just kinda knowing your journey from afar a little bit Chaz that there's been like, okay.
Like, this, I don't know, dodging and weaving. I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is that you're trying to do. Right? And I think all businesses go through this phase, and that's most likely where the listener is right now. They're, like, What do I offer? Do I offer this? Do I offer that? Do I offer both? Should I offer both? Do I not offer both? Do I offer something completely different? Do I change? Do I not, like, shiny object syndrome?
Like you just said, Now how did you navigate that process of kinda really trying to hone in and going, okay. Here's our client. And now we service them in a lot of different ways, but Here's our number one client, and then here are, like, our top 3 things that, like, we really like to do for them. How'd you how'd you get there?
So everybody everybody walks around with lots scars, right, from where you tripped fell, you know, got stabbed, whatever it was, whether it was your own fault, you felt like somebody else's, and even that is usually your own fault. But you learn from all that. And I would say one of my biggest scars is just going too wide, on the offering, trying to do everything.
And that's really led me to we gotta get focused, right, and each organization that that we, you know, build by what have you has gotta have a specific focus, a target because there's there's just real power in that. I mean, you know that. Again, going back to we only wanna do it if we can be the best in the industry at because that going wide and flat and just sort of being mediocre doesn't really get you anywhere. Right?
You never get the velocity you want to actually break through and actually be a top tier competitor within this industry or really any industry. You'll you'll just sort of float around the middle. Do you find, like, as entrepreneurs, we all experience this to a degree, but there's a certain level of confidence that we have in several of our own abilities or in our team if we have one.
And we we genuinely feel like we can service the client in different ways or maybe multiple different types of industries. And so that's that's what takes us to this broad approach, right, because we generally actually think we can help all those people. But to your point, it leads us to not really helping a whole bunch of people because we don't we can't connect with the right people. So Yep. Like, how how does someone go from My confidence gets me in trouble sometimes? Literally. Right?
Like, so okay. So how does someone do that? How does someone go, okay. I'm confident about all these skills that I have or that my team Chaz, but how do we, like, purposely, like, window it down? Because it feels like you're not giving maybe as much as you could, how do you how do you navigate that? Yeah. It's a daily struggle. It's such a great question. We go through a strategic, planning exercise every year now.
And at the end of it, we wanna come out with no more than, like, 3 or 4 really large initiatives. Right? We're not going for 10 We're going for 3 or 4. Again, that we really go after. We really target focused, you know, that gazelle intensity that everybody talks about, right, if you're a Ramsey fan. Chaz type of thing, you go after those, and that's it. And you stay in your lane and you check-in regularly, weekly, monthly, quarterly, to make sure, hey.
Are we still in our lane And then you have to have, you know, those things on the wall so that we keep each other accountable. If something comes up and we, you know, point to the Wolfe and on the wall, nope. Okay. It's it's it's either in the trash or it's on the back burner, and you just have to do it sometimes every day. Yeah. That's so good. And and to even delineate it down to an everyday discipline, really.
And so has this been something that you've had success with, or has this been a struggle of getting the same mindset then even into your team now? Chaz it be both? Can it be? Of course. And I've had some success, but it'd still be a struggle Chaz that thing. Yeah. That's definitely that's definitely a we could all relate to that. Well, because it's So if I put it up there with learning, it's like a lifelong exercise of, like, trying to get better at that every day.
Yeah. Yeah. And the the accountability partnerships that we create within the organization, like I say, hey. I wanna be able to call you out in the same right. You need to be able call me out on something like, hey, Lucas. You're you're getting us off course. Like, okay. Yeah. You're right. And you have to have a culture like that. Otherwise, you know, people could just follow you into the ditch, and you you don't want that. I don't want that.
Yeah. And I think even from what you just said, really stems from the intentional thought and then intentional communication as a team. So you initially thought about, okay, here's where we're gonna put our focus. We agree upon it, and then we communicate in a way to where in the future, we know that we're gonna get off track because that is human nature. Yeah. We like the shiny objects.
And so when I get a shiny object, in front of me and I start getting off track, you now have permission to call me out. I think that's just incredible to have that inside the organization. So, okay, let's transition here. K. Good decisions, bad decisions. I'm so curious Chaz you've been growing, what has been something that you've done that has just worked? Like, it's been a great choice. You look back. You do it ten times over again.
What is it that's that, you know, that that they're they're ready with their pens. They're they're they're taking notes. What do you got for? Okay. So on a small scale, and I I mentioned this, and it seems like a small thing. It's actually turned out to be a bigger thing. We have our workforce is primarily remote all over the place. And on Thursdays, we get together in the morning. We do thankful Thursdays. Right?
And we get an opportunity to go around the table and we say something that we're thankful for. Sometimes it's, hey. I'm really thankful for this team. Sometimes it's really thankful for this client. Sometimes it's really thankful for their uncle's sister brother. But it it actually is an opportunity within a very, like, open culture to sort of talk about what's real and happening in their life. And sometimes it's an opportunity to celebrate something. You maybe grieve something, share something.
And in our in our culture, again, where it's becoming increasingly common for everybody to be remote. Chaz helps bring some humanity, if you will, and some connection to, to our group. And I think it does wonders not like a hit in your face. Like, oh, that's a great thing. But it really brings sort of the team together. And so it seems like a small thing, but it's actually been really powerful for us. Yeah. Again, I go back to that's intentional. You know?
So everything you've given us so far, I think, is just in the vein of being intentional or intentionality. And so for the person who's taking notes right now, listening, it might look different for you. Maybe you guys are in person. Maybe you guys are in the trades. Maybe you meet on the job site.
Maybe you have an agency in yours and your your remote, like, like Lucas and his team, but, you know, as soon as you said, thankful, Thursday, I bet about, you know, a certain percentage of the listeners rolled their eyes. You know? Oh, thankful Thursday. Right? Okay. But the re exactly. My that was my response.
I mean, I just But I'll tell you what, to your point, you create those opportunities, intentionality, and it doesn't happen every time or every single week or every single person every single week. But, if you can be intentional and then you stick to it. And so you guys you do it every single week without fail, I bet, you know, I guess. We spent about 5, 10 minutes maybe just going around really quickly. What survey I think for for a couple of seconds?
And then we, you know, dive right into the you know, the business huddle right into it, but it sets a tone. Again, it it it opens up. It provides some vulnerability and then you know, hey, we I'm thankful for you, and then and then somebody bite somebody's heads off. But that's okay. You know, there's a good balance. Yeah. Absolutely. That's the that's the family. Right? Like, you got you got the swaddlers and then yeah. Exactly.
Okay. Good. Well, let's look know, the families are are just, dysfunctional in another way, but we're we're community. Yeah. There you go. Okay. Alright. So we're using we're using community. Okay. I like that. That's good. Building building the community. Okay. Let's flip the coin then. You gave us the warm and fuzzy. What about the, like, like, never do this again. Steer clear type of decision. What what what was Chaz?
I mean, again, the biggest one is I I took a business early on and went everything to everybody. And I spent so much time doing the things and not doing the relationships and not listening to everybody. I just thought I had the best answers. I thought I could do it by myself. We went wide, flat, mediocre, and it failed. Yeah. And we we didn't listen enough. We we charged forward, and, ultimately, it didn't work. I learned a lot from Chaz.
Maybe I would I would call it the biggest failure of my business career. But we turned it into a very positive in that. We implemented a lot of things moving forward from that point that we'll never do again. And we know the scar. We talk about it. It's real. And we don't have to, you know, have to step in that hole again.
Yeah. I mean, obviously, the the reality of every, terrible scenario is that there's a learning lesson, or something to be able to pull out of it And so what do you think at the 6 figure mark? Because, you know, obviously, again, that's that's the listener. That's where they are. You you've mentioned this, like, we we we try to go we try to be everything to every 1, or in essence, I tried to do everything myself. And those are 2 different things.
Yep. But they but they serve the same they come in the same place. How does the person listening right now who's either struggling with, you know, trying to be too many things too too too many people or getting in their own way wearing too many hats, whether it's, you know, they can be one in the same, I guess, but they're they're really different. How did you, how did they break free of that? So they are different things. And that's that's a good point.
So from the area of going too wide, I think you listening to your customer base, listening to your audience, looking at your industry, you have to look at that one thing you're really good at. You're really passionate about It's not something that came up in a sidebar. It is really a a single point that you can point to and and is your your north and north North star. Is that what it is? I mean, it's like Northern lights. That doesn't sound right. Right. And that star, you always point there.
And then just chase after that one thing. And and you have to be able to be really good and I, you know, saying no to other things. That's the hard part. And then to the other piece of of not doing everything, you have to just look at yourself in the mirror and be really honest with yourself. What are you not good at potentially and or what do you not wanna do? You know, what are the things that you really are passionate about? You like doing?
And what's the thing that you have to, again, self reflect. What are you just doing because you have to do it, not because you really like to do it? And you could if you really look at your day and start to carve out your way. You're spending your time. You're always sort of naturally leaning towards the stuff that you wanna do. So do that. And then find somebody who's even better than you at those other things because they're out there. Yeah. 100%.
Okay. And so Is there a process that you follow to to do? Like, you've given us a couple of examples, good and bad. And, obviously, you're making decisions every single day. Right? We we do as entrepreneurs multiple times a day. Do you follow some sort of a guiding Northern light in making decisions? So we create our our annual scorecard. We back it in as sort of a EOS thing. We, you know, we do our quarterly rocks.
We do weekly sprint planning and everything sort of has to tier up to our focus, right, and everything has a dependency and we look at it on a quarterly basis and we write something down and we go, okay. How does that lead to one of our 3 or 4 initiatives? Like, let's tag it. Literally tag it to one of those things and make sure that we're and then again, write it on the wall point to it, create the accountability. It's just that ongoing practice.
Yeah. So the Number 1 is you have to clearly identify what you want, which you called your 3 to 4 initiatives, whether that's in a yearly planning or whether that's just as an entrepreneur, you sit down and you write down on a piece of paper. Okay. What am I trying to get done this year? Right? And the Yeah. Exactly. Where were your starting point in the statement? Exactly. Exactly. And so then you have that as your guide of like, okay. Here's what I want. Here's what I'm saying that I want.
And then if I can make the decision based on does it help me get what I want? Or if it doesn't, then you said earlier, you throw out the trash, you put it on the back burner. Right? Give us an example of something like that in the business that's been like, oh, okay. Like, in the previous years, I would have been like, I would have jumped on it, but it was the shiny object. And and this time, I put it on the back burner or threw it away. Do you have any examples like that?
Yeah. So we, I mean, we work with trade and professional associate. I've worked with everybody from the, you know, Montana door knockers association to AARP, right, and everybody in between. And AR week claims to be bigger than the Catholic church. You know, they got 34,000,000 members, cough joke.
But, so you you work with these large National associations and you get in conversation Chaz say, oh, I'd really love to have a partnership with X Y Z. You sort of look in your bag of tricks in our industry and you go, well, that's not in there, but I could go get it because I know who to talk to and I could go out and I could sign an agreement and then I could sign an agreement with that association. I could bring all these people together.
I could totally make it happen, but it's not on the wall. And it's really hard to say no because at the end of that rainbow could be a ton of value for the members, a ton of value for the association, new business for that supplier, and a financial benefit for us for sort of coordinating all of those efforts and and making that happen. Sure. And you have to sort of walk turn and walk the other way away from money. We're putting it on the back burner, as I said.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, this is this came up in another conversation I was having with somebody earlier today. I didn't really tie these two things together, but when you're in a decision like Chaz. And in essence, the reason why we do it is because we see the money. Right? We see the financial opportunity, the reward, the gain, Mhmm. And we let that be the, like, oh, as opposed to does it get me what's what you say is on the Wolfe?
And that's why you have to predetermined what gets on the wall because we know we're gonna be in these moments where something is gonna pop up and we're we're gonna be pulled to the side, whether it's from money or it doesn't even have it doesn't have to be a bad thing. It just means that you're trying to grow your business. You're trying to take care of your employees. Like, more revenue means that you can take care of your people. And so, like, it's not like it's like you being greedy.
It just means that you being distracted. Right. Well, more revenue can get you another person on your team who's better at something that's dragging you down that would lift them up that would allow you to spend more time on growing the business and getting to the next level Again, if you can get through that mindset, you can some of you can do it better. You can't. Believe it or not. I promise. There is somebody out there that does it better. There always is.
So, more revenue equals more opportunity. It's that simple. Yeah. No. I understand that for sure. Okay. So the transition that you've made, and I and and I wanna just, you know, talk about, how you've grown a little bit because I know you've done it through acquisition, but talk to me just for a quick second on having a business purchasing another business that's like minded. It's not like it's not like you bought a competitor Chaz, and you rolled it under. So it's like the same exact processes.
It's different. It's it's another vertical, but the same general world. Talk to us about Chaz, like, just in general, like, how was that taking on another team? How has that stretched you as a leader owner to, like, you know, have another already determined group of people who already have their own sets of goals and stuff like that, but now they're under yours. Like, just give us in general, like, what what acquisition looks like, for you in the last little bit of time.
Yeah. So we we've done it a few times now. So I feel like we learn something new every time, and we get better at it each time we do it, which is, I think, the goal and then and then intended what we recognized is the team that was in place was so good. They were established. They were in an industry. So they're in our industry. It's it's a complimentary product or service to what we do.
So it's like, you know, sort of that another bullet in the gun sort of metaphor or whatever silly you wanna use for that. Yeah. But the thing that really excited us was they're just a fantastic team, and you have to have that to be able to put yourself in a place where you're gonna be a little bit stretched. Right? You're in one company. You're in 2 companies. You're in 3 companies.
And then having, you know, sort of the the leadership, the the time that it takes to be understanding and then also having to say no to, like, wanting to put your hands and everything. Like, you can't. You have to trust some people. Was actually telling people this week. I went away for a 15th wedding anniversary. And at the end of it, you know, we Chaz all these great things. You're down to Mexico. Sun serve all the good stings. Right?
We get back and I'm like, you know, asking, well, thinking about what was the greatest part. My wife says, you know, I think that was Chaz was the first time you had not worked entirely through a vacation in in 5 plus years. Yeah. And I thought about it. I go, Wolfe, that was well, 1st of all, that was the greatest part of vacation. Was to actually take it? Not actually doing it, but just to hear that comment. Like, okay.
And then I and then somebody asked me in the organization, and I told them that. And they said, what was it? What changed? And I said, I thought about it for a minute. I go, I really had a great team or teams. Like, I I, you know, these people, uh-uh, I I trust these people. The the wheels aren't gonna fall off the bus. And it totally makes the difference. Yeah. Okay. So I'm hearing several things in there. I wanna try to just break this down for the listener a little bit.
They take some notes on this, but you talked earlier about getting out of your own way. And so what that looks like is you having a team. So whether you're building a team, hiring in your own business now, or in this case, you've given a couple of examples of how you've done that, but then also acquired. You've went out and purchased another business.
Instead of trying to figure out another service or an offering, you just found another company that had another offering and and decided to couple it with your brand. And so the team in that aspect has what's allowed you to almost, like, force yourself to give your self the permission to give those things away. Right? Like Yeah. Because they're amazing, you you were able to step away and trust them.
Do you think that when you do another acquisition or as you continue to grow your current teams, that that piece is now easier, or is it still the same process of, like, You have to raise them up. You give them a little bit of things. Like, you give them a couple of tasks. You know, you wanna try to build trust, or is it kinda like open handed now? Like, how do you feel now looking back? Yeah. So going through that, what we've learned is I think we got a little bit. I'll say lucky.
We weren't doing necessarily all the due diligence on the people. Right? So the the standard. Historic was like, well, we don't don't worry about the people. We're we're buying the business and the assets and all of this and figure out that part later, and we'll reshuffle and do everything that we need to do. But if you were to sort of go in there, make an acquisition, and the whole thing was so dysfunctional Chaz sort of beyond recovery or or Right.
You didn't know that this was gonna be a big blow up in your face. That's a huge liability. And so if the right way you have to be able to do the due diligence on the culture and the people And I'd ask I'd ask more questions, about what it really looks like, the current work culture, what are they like? How have people done their done their life and business to this point? Because Right. That's gonna impact your own life and business.
And it's a it's a bigger asset than maybe some people give credit for, depending on the business. If you're If you're buying a machine, you know, maybe it's not Chaz makes widgets, it's not as big a deal. If you're buying a a consulting business, professional firm, your your people are your machine and, a 100%. Yeah. Exactly. So let's get off the beaten path here just for half a second. I know that you guys use Culture Index, I do as well.
And so talk to me about that as far as, like, being inside of your team Chaz well as then now acquiring multiple other teams that you didn't build yourself, how has that helped you and or has that given you any, like, oh, man, I wish I would've known this sooner or anything like that. I should first preface the fact that I I don't get paid, by culture index to say in the following, but I don't know that I would build or or buy another business without that tool, honestly.
And it's not everything. It's a it's a puzzle piece. It's a it's a full program, what have you. It does give you some general insights, and it talks about how people will naturally go about their business and what we aim to do with the program with with culture index is put people in seats where they're gonna be really successful. And for leaders, open them up to the culture index survey and and pattern profile and so forth to enlighten themselves about, hey.
Here's some things that you might be really, really good at, and then we think you're gifted at and how you naturally go about what you're gonna do. And maybe here are some things about yourself that you didn't know or you didn't know. You just didn't wanna recognize, and here's how you can help manage yourself and others. I I think there's just as much in there about how to manage yourself as there is to manage others. And, again, we'll we'll use it from here on until.
Yeah. Well, I love what you said there as far as managing yourself and others because even that at an entrepreneur level, goes back to one of the very first things that you said, which is you have to get out of your own way. And so if you don't know how you operate naturally, skills and or negatives, positives, negatives, whatever you wanna call it, then you don't know then how to build a team around yourself.
First off, you may not even think that you need a team around yourself, which we we covered that as well. You gotta get beyond your own arrogance. And realize that there's other people who can do it and most likely better. So that that's the first step, which what I'm hearing, and I'm agreeing with is that you have to first recognize you as the entrepreneur and going, okay. What are my skill sets?
Okay. So I, x, y, z, whether that's I I see the bigger picture or I like to build the detail or I'm good with people. I'm not good with people. Like, whatever the the broken down pieces are, your pace and how fast you're moving or how your ability is to focus.
All of these things can make a difference on you as the entrepreneur listening right now and hearing what Lucas has to say on building these teams, but before he can even do that, he had to be just really, really honest about his own skill set and places that he needs to modify. Right? So diversification is such a a hot topic. Right? And then but in a different way, culture index teaches you the power of diversification within your own organization. Right?
You need some people who are forward thinking. You need some people who are are more like today focused and you need people who are social and some positions don't need to be social and and patience and level of detail. Like, there's advantages and disadvantages to having different types of folks within your organizations depending on the role, but then also just complimentary to you.
Like, to your point, like, if you're not a details oriented person, you might wanna have one of those to the right of you. So, they Chaz, yeah, you can pick up all the pieces that you leave behind as you're running fast and throw everything, and I just described myself. So Yeah. Exactly. That's funny because most entrepreneurs, I would say, to a level like that, even myself, I don't know if we've ever talked about.
It's so funny we use the same tool, but I don't know if we've ever talked about it, but so I'm a I'm a big picture, but I'm also a detailed guy. But I'll tell you that my gas pedal runs faster or more heavy than the detail. So if you looked at me from from the culture index, you'd be like, oh, this guy, you know, has a has a preference for detail, and I do. But I'll tell you what, that bigger picture, that vision, that gas pedal Wolfe run circles around those details all day long.
And There you go. Look at my office on any given Thursday and be like, Dude, what happened in here? You know, but eventually, it comes to a time where I'm like, okay. You gotta put things back in order. And the same thing I I do with my my my teams, they know, like, we'll run fast first.
And then we'll figure out the detail, but the detail are, like, quickly behind because I do prefer things to be in order, but I need that person, like you just said, to be nearby picking up some of the parts he's still oriented than they are gas sometimes. Right? That's Yeah. Exactly. Over compliment. Yeah. Exactly. So well, good. Okay. So let's go with the speed round. My first question is this.
In your businesses, what is the number one metric if you could only pick 1 to track, what would be the one metric that you would track forever and always? So in our industry, engagement is the buzzword. And different associations have now found ways to measure it. Right? How many, you know, if you'll get points for how many live events you went to, you'll points for how many certifications you get to.
You get points for how many, programs that you participate in, how many years you've been a member, and we work to quantify that. At this point, engagement to us would be sort of activations. How many members actually participate in one of our programs, and I'm talking specifically at at core affinity, for example. So how many of those are actually linked to contracts because of our efforts That's that's our key indicator.
Yeah. And I don't think the audience would pick this up just because they don't know the ins and outs of your business, but what you just did is that you used the measurement of your client. And the engagement, that's what they're tracking. That's what your association clients are tracking Chaz their engagement. But you actually then transfer that into the metric that you are tracking with your client.
And so that's just, that I'm my mind is blown a little bit right now because you're you're when you've talked to your clients about their engagement in your programs, They're gonna understand that language. They're gonna understand engagement because that's what they track. Right. Or and and you can flip it around in some cases all and then we become a scoring for their engagement. Right? So we can report back to them. Here's how many members have participated in your programs.
And that becomes an element of their overall member scoring. And they use that for all sorts of things where they spend their time on renewals, where they spend their time focusing specific marketing campaigns and so forth. They're using these to to sort of score everybody for better or worse, but for them, it's it's better.
Yeah. And I'm even, like, you know, I go straight to strategy in my brain because I'm, like, you know, I I I see the opportunity of, like, you are literally showing them how their members act, and then what that makes them want to do with those people. And so it's almost a mirror because you get to show them that their client, their member gets a better experience Mhmm. And they're involved when they're engaged. And so it's the same thing for you guys.
You guys get to show them that through using more of your contracts and the things that aren't even gonna cost them more money, but just press into all of your offering to be more engaged, how they're gonna have a better experience at, like Which is increasing the value, which is a a strong correlation, right, to engagement to value typically. For them. And so that's how they're they're using those metrics. Yeah. And certainly, and you could there there's an opportunity. Right?
You chase that opportunities. Like, we could build a whole business around helping them scoring and engaging and sort of a marketing, aspect, but it's not on the Wolfe. So I'm gonna say no. We'll move on. That's good. And and I would say a third level to that, you said, engagement to what'd you just say? Engagement to Value. To value. Right? So my point is Chaz you find value in this membership in some regard And there's a correlation.
So that's, again, that's how they sort of reach a a determination mathematically from a quantitative standpoint. What's the likelihood that Chaz is gonna renew in National Association broadcasters, for example. So A 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Because because of I got value, so I'm gonna stick around, which means if you're providing the value, if you can get them engaged, they're gonna receive the value that you're providing, and therefore, then pay. So engagement value.
Certification and you signed up for 2 contracts. Your engagement score is, you know, 8.2 out of 10. He's Chaz is gonna renew. We're good there. Yeah. Yeah. Which means revenue, which means now I can have predictability in my business. Right. And so even for the I'm just thinking of the, you know, the agency or the, you know, whether it's marketing, whether it's a trades person, even a franchisee who's, you know, got a retail shop like some of my businesses, if I could engage with my folks Right?
If I could make sure that the experience is amazing that they receive the value, they're more likely to come back. Yeah. What is your what would be your metric in the retail space in your franchise? I mean, Wolfe, like, on the management piece, it would be sales. Right? Like, I know from, like, a high level number of sales. I know, like, instantly, I know all the way down to the bottom because I know the business. Yep. But from what we're talking about, I would say the experience. Right?
And so that can equate to how many times people come back. Yeah. For sure. So, okay, next question. What book would you recommend to, 6 figure owner trying to get to 7 figures or more? Oh, okay. So I I read, a little while ago rocket fuel. And again, I think it sort of ties back into what we were talking about earlier about getting out of your own way and recognizing it can't be great at everything sort of thing. And it it talks about the the unique partnership of a visionary and an integrator.
And, you know, I'm off the charts, you know, if they score you within the block on on visionary profile, which is great, but I, you know, I'll I'll leave a a trail behind me sometimes, which I mentioned also. And so the the concept that there's this a coupling person out there with me that could, sort of make this great marriage and and do all Chaz. And sometimes a lifelong journey to find that person, but just the the recognition that, oh, yeah, those aren't the things that I'm really good at.
And there are out there are people out there that love to do just that It's really powerful. And it was just sort of a confirmation. I'd sort of hinted at it for years and, it made a lot of sense to me, as an owner operator. Yeah. Wanting to be more owner. So I second that I second it. The the book is great. And and he I think he even breaks it down in there. He's like 95% of you know, people are one way or the other. Right.
And, and so it gives you a clear distinction on on on who you can be in your business and gives you freedom or permission. Right, to go be that. So that's great. About 2 chapters to get it. And I was like, oh, this looks great. Well, and and and, you know, for for most owners, you know, we're visionaries. Very few, are naturally integrators, or some some are both. Right. I being one of them. I'm definitely both. But, I think that the permission that that book gives is like, okay.
No. There's literally, like you said, there's someone out here who in joys doing these things, which is what takes my energy. It keeps me from being the the absolute best that I am. So great great book recommendation. Do you next question, do you network or intentionally mastermind with other entrepreneurs? I do. This is something, I'm working on trying to add more time into, my day, week, month, quarter, year, whatever it is. Because there is such value.
Even just you and I, Chaz, getting on the phone and and talking about business. It's, yeah, things come up and things come out and you can throw some problems out there at people, who are in a similar space and and they'll show you their scars and you could sort of open the kimono, show them yours, and there's a ton of value in that. And then sometimes it's just sort of confirming or affirming things that you're doing.
You sort of know the right You just need the, a little bit of, yep, you're on the right track. Keep going. You know, press harder, less break, more gas, or the other way around. So definitely, you know, there it's one of those things where I'm looking to spend more time doing that is that Chaz it presents itself and you gotta you sort of have to pick your head up sometimes and go looking for that because it doesn't always come natural to go do it. That's right. Working on the business.
It makes sense when you're working in the business. It's not Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's it's definitely more of an on, play. I love what you said in there about knowing sometimes that it's not like this revelation or this, like, oh, what a great idea. I'd never thought about that. Sometimes it's just confirmation. And and I've experienced that in my own, you know, journey of being entrepreneur.
I've experience that in my own, groups that I facilitate, but there is a major play when when you've already taken the risk. And you thought it was a good idea, but you're you don't really have anybody in your circle around you that's, like, at your level or as maybe crazy as you are as as because that's what that's what we get looked at as a lot of times as entrepreneurs. And so when you can share what's going on and you have that person that just goes, yep. Yep. Uh-huh. Yep. Keep going.
And there's no, like, value from a perspective of difference or an opinion or a suggestion. It's just yep, to know that someone else that you value that is also at your level or above is saying, yep, it's just that confirmation of that confidence boost that you need just to go, you know what? I'm I'm gonna do this. And you and then you press in harder. Right? Yes. I mean, the the challenging, of other people's thought and ideas, obviously, has a ton of value too. Right?
You create a space where there's a lot of truth speak. Yeah. And, I I was drinking. I'm actually reading thinking in bets right now. Any Duke book, and she talks about, you know, she comes out of a tournament. And, I think she was playing, like, 5, 6 suited, or something like that in a tournament, and She's talking with another pro, and she gets off the table where she had lost it. And she goes, you know, she's asking, well, where did I make the wrong move?
Like, should I bet more here in this on the turn, or should I held back? And And the answer was, well, why did why did you even go in with 56 suited? Right. But thinking about your own ideas is like, I I am thinking about, oh, we're building this technology and then this and Chaz. And, you know, sometimes it's good to go. Why are you building that technology? Right. Yeah. It just questions everything. And and if you've got a good answer, then maybe you're doing the right thing.
Yeah. That's right. But if you don't, then Even even just the challenging Wolfe make somebody in the group stop and think about Oh, okay. Well, do I have a good answer? Because maybe they do. Yeah. Maybe they don't. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that makes me think. And I don't share I don't share usually a bunch on these on these shows, but I had a guy, like, 2 weeks ago, buddy of mine say, I think I think he got asked the question. I think it's what it actually was.
He got asked, like, why are you doing this? Like, what's your purpose? And so I think it made him think. And so in just our time, he's a buddy of mine, we were chatting back and forth. He said, hey. Like, why are you doing this? What's your purpose? You know? And I rolled, like, not, like, in a length of time, but I was like, I I've got two main focuses here and here. I'm over here because of this. I'm over here because of this.
And, and he texted me later, like, that later that day and was like, hey, man. I really liked your answer. And it was confirmation to me. Like, I already knew my answer. Right? But, like, I knew in that moment when he asked me that question because I thought about it. I put time into it. I know why I'm doing what I'm doing. On the wall. Right. It's on the wall, man. And so, I love that phrase too.
But it was just even then the confirmation for him of, like, we've gotta have him, like, a definite purpose. And and I learned that a long time ago, reading Thinking Grow Rich. It's like, if you don't have a definite major purpose, If I don't know exactly what I want and why I want it, then I'm gonna lose track every single time. You know? So I think Chaz was all those kinda tied together. So alright. Last question. K. If you lost it all, Lucas, what would you do, man? What would you do?
That's a good question. You know, my my knee jerk response, to the question is I'm a I'm a spiritual guy like yourself, and there's really there's really no losing at all. I I Yeah. You know, we've already been given everything. Right? So, you know, what am I really losing? You know, is the bigger the bigger theme or the bigger answer that I would ask myself And the answer is everything else seems small. But what I wouldn't do, put my tail between my legs and go home, but it's just not my style.
I'm gonna pick up whatever bag's still laying around. I'm gonna go knocking on doors and talking to people. Yeah. Yeah. And get back after it. There's just there's no option. I I enjoy the entrepreneur roller coaster, another book. And I I like going after it and doing it and exploring and solving those problems and helping people and serving in that capacity. I I think there is a a serving aspect to doing what we do. And it's not always self serving. Maybe sometimes it is.
You're just being honest. Like, you're just going after something be for yourself. Right. And sometimes I'm just arrogant and think I can do it better, and I'll admit that that's kind of sometimes a driving factor. But the answer is pick yourself back up and and just run as fast as you can in in a new direction, maybe, or maybe in the same direction. Yeah. I love I love the response. And like you said, from a place of eternity, what have you really lost? You know?
So I think that that's great perspective to make everything else seem small. And and the reason why we zoom out like that to make things feel small is so that we can regain, like you said, regain some sort of a confidence like, okay. What did I really lose? Not really a whole lot. Let me go after it again. And it it gives ourselves permission to just be ourselves because it's not like it's not like you're gonna go work for somebody else. Most likely.
Most likely, you're gonna probably just take another swing at it. You know? That's the best of the mission. I love the mindset of, I'm gonna blank on who who did it, and you'll you'll probably know, but, you know, putting yourself in the perspective of your eighty year old self and going, you know, what would I have really regretted at this point in my life and, go do those things.
Yeah. And if you one of those things is on your career achievement mark that's on that list, then get back on the saddle and start riding towards it again. Yeah. That's right. Good stuff, man. Well, Lucas, if someone one wanted to connect with you, they they just really liked your story, or maybe they wanna find out how maybe they've maybe they're a part of an association. And they and they've got a tie, and they need to get Whoever it is. Their association is tied into your, benefits.
How do they reach you? So, you can reach out to us on core affinitydot com, other organization, bigredam.com, on LinkedIn also, Lucas McCann. So look us up. We're in false church Virginia just outside of Washington, DC, which makes it easy hop for us to go, go have coffee, grab a drink, dinner, break bread with our clients, and it's a lot of fun and great place to be. That's awesome, man. Well, we so appreciate you coming here today.
Obviously, blessings to you, your family, all the endeavors that you have going on. Nothing but success. And, thanks for being here with us. Give it up yourself. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Pleasure was mine, and, same to you and yours. Thanks for listening to Gathering the Kings. We hope you got a ton of value today and learned a thing or 2 about taking your business to 7 figures and beyond.
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