On today's episode of gathering the Kings. This is where we see a lot of our, like, alphas out in the world making ridiculous statements. Like, I'm better than and all this sort of stuff. It's like, you can keep all that nonsense. That's a lone wolf who's injured crying in the woods, and I'm happy to go and help administer medical aid, but that's not something to be emptied or emulated. What's up, everybody? I'm Chaz Wolfe gathering the King's podcast. I'm your host.
Today, I've got Carl Libba here on the King stage. My brother. How are we doing? I'm doing really good. I'm doing better now after that introduction. I might need you to get the recording on my voice mail. Need all that energy. When somebody's mad that they've missed me and they're having to leave a voice mail, they need all that jazz coming at them. Yes. I told you before we hit the recording button, I had to look away from your name on the screen to say your last name properly, but I did it.
Right? You got it. 100%. Boom. So much so that you want the recording on your phone. I do. I do. I want the energy, the proper pronunciation of a South African last name, which is, I mean, impressive for a guy from the Midwest. Your offer comes to getting tough nuts. Wolfe done. There we go. I'm already a growing individual here today. Thanks to you, Carl. I I am so excited for this conversation.
I told you that as soon as we got on, I'm for all of our podcast guests, but this one is gonna be so unique. Carl, tell us what kind of business that you have. I've got 2 them because I'm a dummy and I decided, hey. If you can do one thing, why not do two of them and figure that out. I know, but I love them. I've got, one is a branding agency called Tall Tail Brands. And our tagline in that one is you've got a fascinating story. Let us help you tell it better.
And the other one is a coaching and consulting company in which we focus on executive leadership and team development all around this idea that curiosity is a superpower, and so we call ourselves curiosity coach. A curiosity coach. If that doesn't make the listener curious about what the heck you do. I don't know what does. I told you this right right when we first got on the recording or for the recording, I mean, is that I've used this phrase.
Be curious for nearly 20 years Chaz I've been teaching really people communication and psychology, but inside of the context of sales and sales process. But you're right. Curiosity is absolutely a superpower and not necessarily just god given. Like, yes, I believe probably some are are maybe more bestowed than others, but This is a muscle that we can we can work. Right?
Yeah. That's even why the language for us is slightly different because the language of being curious is this, you know, it's a beautiful kind of Zen idea. But like you said, there's some information in that that, oh, you are curious, so just be curious. And for us, we really think that anybody can get curious if you want to develop the muscle.
So even like our website, we were lucky enough that it wasn't taken is get more curious is this idea of how do you develop an everyday life with your spouse, with your kids, your friends, your businesses, everyday interactions, of, oh, okay. Before I get there, what would it look like to get more curious about any one of these people, especially those honestly that you have the most relationship with because the ones you start to have the least amount of curiosity, though.
Yeah. Which leads me right into my follow-up question here because for me, curiosity is so tied to being interested or caring. And I don't know your your kinda underneath philosophy on this. So I'm either setting myself up for an agreement or maybe a little bit of a charge conversation. I don't know. So we're doing it live right here.
But for years, I I've I you know, inside of this context of sales, there is this stinky, you know, like, about manipulation and sales and convincing someone or manipulating somebody. And when you have a a mindset of being interested or being curious, or being, like, I just care about this individual. I see the other human and in sales. I'm trying to figure out what they need, like, genuinely what they need. And if I have it, then I put those 2 things together, and then and we move on.
If I don't, then I refer them to someone else that can help them. That's just a very genuine, like, I wanna help. I wanna be a good servant. And so in that, If I'm curious, I'm actually expressing my interest in what's really important to them. Mhmm. What would you say to that? Is there agreement here? Do have I only scratched surface. I'm probably sure you've probably gone way deeper than this.
Well, no. No. I I think you opened a really interesting idea because, again, The best sales people that you've ever met because I do some coaching with sales teams as well. The best sales people you've ever met have never felt like they've sold you anything. What they've done is they've jumped into a problem with you, shoulder to shoulder, and they go, wonder if we did this or this or this or this. And all of a sudden, you're like, hold on. Is this person lifting weight with me?
Like, the thing that felt like a £100 before now feels like £50 or less because they've joined in. And so the thing that I tell salespeople and I tell humans in general is in order to be interesting, you have to be interested. Yeah. And this is also true of people who find themselves may be going, oh, man. I'm I've joined a new company or I'm looking for new social circles or I'm joining a new church or I'm going to A cocktail party and they're going, I have social anxiety.
And I will tell them, listen, all of those things are understandable. Some of those things are psychological. Some of them are social. Some of them are chemical. This is why, you know, we are whole humans. There's no one answer to everything. So it might be going to a therapist. It might be going to, you know, a psychiatrist who can prescribe something. But I would tell them the first thing that you wanna do is take the focus off you and think about somebody else in the room.
And what I tell people all the time is my life mission is I'm on a rescue mission for Chaz's inner eight year old. So in any meeting that I'm going into and I met with the CEO of a fortune 100 company the other day. When I walked into the meeting, you know, people talk about, you know, tricks for public speaking, imagine them naked. I that's awkward to me. I've I don't want to imagine somebody, and I don't wanna do that. Okay. I'm I'm good. Thank you.
What I actually do is before I get to the meeting, I go, I wonder what this person was like as an eight year old. What were they like as an eight year old boy Wolfe go? What were they interested in? What were they fascinated by? And by the way, the best way to kind of create pretty instant compassion for the other person is imagine all the ways their life didn't turn out the way they wanna to from 8 to now. That's all the places where it broke.
And if you can do that, when you walk into the thing, all of a sudden, you're like, oh my gosh. I've such an incredible amount of compassion and interest or compassion for an interest in this person that it's weird. I'm not thinking about me anymore.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The root of that is either a selfish or a selfless perspective, and I, you said it beautifully, when we're self focused, rather than others focused, yeah, there's a whole lot of pressure on you being the life of the party or being enough or whatever else that one might think of in being anxious about a party in that example, but when you think about the other people there, and then you took it to another level there.
I just really love that about the childhood, but then seeing before you meet them, of course, you don't know all the exact moments where it broke, but assuming that it Chaz, because Carl, has your life broke at all? My mine has a couple of times. Okay. So so if guys like you and I Yeah. They're having a human experience. Something Chaz broken in their life at some point. Yeah. And so so before the conversation even begins now, I'm wondering how it broke.
What that leads me to is curiosity, which then usually good salesperson and or probably a good executive is questions. Because I'm curious, because I'm interested in your story it leads me to ask you questions. Wolfe you agree? 100%. And I think you hit on the last part of that is I'm I am no longer interested in simple answers. I'm fascinated by great questions. Yeah. It's good. It's good. Well, I'm gonna try my darndest here today, Carl, to ask you some fascinating questions.
Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, you get to sit in the seat where not very often, people are asking you a bunch of good questions. And so Sure. A buckle up, pal. Okay? Hold on. Hold on. Click. Yeah. Exactly. Ready. Ready. Okay. For for my first one, I I am gonna throw a hard hitting one at you, and I don't want this to be the general, like, what's your why. Good. Because Carl, I believe in burning desire. Like, a definiteness of purpose that thinking Growridge talks about in Napoleon Hill.
I wanna know what's on the inside of Carl Chaz is just burning. What is that? Yeah. Such a good question. So for me, it goes back to there's a quote by mother Theresa. She was interviewed, kind of at the end of her life and you've gotta think where she was in Calcutta, she saw diseases that should have no longer existed for 100 of years. I mean, we're talking about typhoid and even leprosy. I mean, she was loving on people whose, you know, digits were falling off.
Yeah. And this this New York Times reporter comes to do a a biopic piece on it. And it's like, man, these are some horrific conditions And mother Theresa grew up wealthy. She gave up wealth to go and do this thing and says, hey. What is what is the worst disease? That you've come across. And she said, without missing a beat, said loneliness. And we look at it now, and there's a couple of great writers on it.
One of the guys that I enjoy who's talking a lot about Chaz these days is Adam Grant, another guy is Professor Scott Galloway out of NYU and they talk about the pandemic or the epidemic rather, sorry, of loneliness. And part of my burning desire in the Wolfe, is if I can help create more aptitude greater muscle memory for curiosity, when people can kind of get out of themselves, they will become more interesting to other people Chaz they will feel more connected and they will feel less lonely.
And the effects of loneliness are catastrophic, physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and we've seen this in the pandemic. And what I think we also see is Yeah. People are going, I don't know how to fix this. Like, oh, I'm super connected on an app or the and I listen. I love technology. I am pretty much an early adapter to anything Chaz new that comes out, but only as long as it's another screwdriver or hammer or scalpel that's used as a tool to get us to be more connected.
And so the burning thing in my world is to go, how do I walk away from every encounter with another human being going? They felt more connected. They felt more seen and more loved in that moment so that they don't feel alone because that's the disease I think we all need to be eradicating. Yeah. I love that. I think that, you know, gathering the Kings originally before even the podcast started as a mastermind group, And it's funny because I've had members.
These are successful entrepreneurs, 7, 8, even 9 figures. And I had to change. I could I did a couple of events, you know, super structured. I bring in, like, some major value just, you know, structured all day long. I'm just that's just kinda like my personality. And what I learned actually is that they just wanted to be in an environment with other high performers, and just connect.
Mhmm. They really didn't it's not that they didn't want the speaker or to be able to, you know, take notes and walk away and grow. They they wanted Chaz. Not really. What they really, really wanted was just to be seen by someone else like them, possibly dealing with the same problem, or have maybe already overcome that problem, and being able to throw some bags together or deep sea fish together, or you know, hike into the Blue Ridge Mountains there in Georgia.
Like, they just wanted to be together connected. That's it. I mean and I think the basic thing all humans are wired to do is one of 2 things. We're here to either carry pain, and there's a lot of Chaz. And just a little back me my one of my brothers is a functional neurologist. And so I get to cheat a lot in my work because I get to go to him and be like, hey. I have a theory on this thing on leadership or team or community or curiosity.
Does that make sense from a physiological you know, anatomy brain standpoint, neurological standpoint. And there've been a couple of times. He's like, no. That's not how the brains work. Okay. Okay. Let's adjust this. But one of the core principles of my life is this idea that we are wired, and I double checked with him and he said it's true. We're wired to either carry pain or celebrate pleasure. And the brain goes to pain fifteen times faster than it will go to pleasure.
And so part of, I think, what you experienced in your mastermind is if you become a high functioning individual, when you say yes to something, I say I'm gonna dedicate my life to this and you're saying no to at least 5 other things. Yeah. And so for a lot of these men and women as they these high functioning individuals, they're saying no to sometimes connection and community and this why you get a mastermind is go other like minded individuals.
Because they accidentally forge a path that's pretty isolated. And so like you said, when they get in that room, they're like, hold on. I hear people. Who understand the pain that I've gone through so they can carry it in a way. And, also, I don't have to mute my win because I'm making somebody else feel bad who's never experienced that and be like, Right. Oh, I've got evaluation. And then I had an exit from my company, and the VC bought it.
And you can have other people in the room who goes, wasn't that amazing? And then also weirdly, because I'm showing that you've experienced this with your leaders. Oh, and then wasn't really depressing 3 days later when you didn't have a plan for what was for the next day GLA. So it's, again, you're in a room where people can either celebrate the pleasure Wolfe carry the pain. Yeah. Wow. A very a very thought provoking answer there.
I think this topic of loneliness tell me what you think about this because I feel like sometimes we're talking about high achievers, you know, male and female, but I'm a man. So I'm gonna speak from a man's perspective. This strong man, this provider, protector, husband, father, businessman, a community leader. There's a lot of strength and, like, fortitude in Chaz, for me, at least in my perspective. Right? And so when you talk about loneliness, it sounds weak. Right?
It sounds like, oh, you just wanna you just wanna hang out and be friends. And that doesn't sound appealing to me on the surface because it doesn't line up with, like, what I see as strength or at least what what society has built as strength. But what I've learned is that a lot of times, friendship, like you said, is what's missing or the connection. This is the real genuine. I see you, and it's even better when it's someone like you, and they've gone through these similar things.
Like, I've got buddies, you know, in my church. I've got buddies in my little area, but nobody has businesses like I do. They don't deal with the same problems or the same weight of decisions. Like, it's just So my like, I'm serving up to you like this. Weakness perspective. How is loneliness, like, real, even for that strong dude out there who's, like, I got a beard. I don't need anybody. You know what I mean? Like, fuck. Yeah. Listen, the bid and be today is real.
This is about 11 years growth for me and just you know, keep going, dude. Yeah. One day at 2 is just pop out. She's going, and I'm blowing. There you go. That's right. Yeah. It's such a fascinating question. It's also, I think, a fairly American problem. So, again, I'm South African. We're gonna have slightly culturally different views on this, but America is is built on historically things like manifest destiny. Like, oh, America was Chaz, and we're gonna do this thing.
And then it adopted things like, you know, the Puritan Work ethic or the Protestant Work ethic. All of these were very individual things. Like, I have been selected. I have been chosen. Yeah. Any other place in the world where you see lower anxiety rates, lower depression rate, this this sense of the common, the thing in common. How do we do the thing together? And I don't think it's one or the other. I think I, a lot of times, talk about in my coaching about the third way. It's not a 0 sum.
It's not about, like, how does Chaz lose his masculinity to have friends? Okay. How does he have friends and dementia? It's like there's a third way where both of those things fully come alive. And I'll give you an example of one of those things. I don't you you're younger than me, but I remember when I first came to the States, there was, like, a brand called No Fear.
And one of the things on the brand was this wolf And I remember later, years later, there were movies like the hangover and, you know, there's jokes about, oh, I'm like the lone Wolfe. From the, you know, but you know what's really interesting about that analogy? And I've I've heard CEOs use it. Be like, listen. I'm just kind of a lone wolf. I get things done. I hunt. I don't think many people understand that in Wolfe in the world of wolves, a lone wolf is rabid.
The rest of the pack has lost trust in them because wolves actually hunt in packs. They are pack animals. They work together. They're very, like, provider protector, but it happens in common. The the one time that a wolf decides they were going to be loan It's because the pack has said you are no longer healthy for the community. So you need to hold the loan. And so when I look at this idea of I'm suffering from loneliness. I'm this person by myself. I've decided to be a lone wolf.
There's a difference between solitude and becoming solitary. Everybody needs solitude. Everybody needs to be with themselves and their own thoughts to re energize. We look at this at any world leader who's ever done anything good for the planet had moments of great solitude, whether that be, you know, Jesus or Gandhi. Like there are spaces even in political leaders of Nelson Mandela. I mean, took something horrific at 27 year imprisonment.
And used it for the good and an inside his own to mind and and use that solitude for good. But we're not supposed to pick a solitary life. Where you're supposed to pick solitary moments or moments you saw it too. And so for me, when I look at this, it's going We spend so much energy building our business, but we don't spend the same kind of energy building our community. And to me, If I'm very, very honest, and this is gonna probably upset some people, that's actually the weakness.
The weakness is going don't trust other people. There's nobody as good as me. There's nobody who can do it like I can do. There's nobody who can understand me. Those are coming from positions of Fia. Of going, I will never find this so I won't try or attempt. And then what I'll do is I'll slap the label loan wolf on it to feel masculine or better than This is where we see a lot of our, like, alphas out in the world, like making ridiculous statements.
Oh, like, I'm better than and all this sort of stuff. It's like, you can keep all that nonsense. That's a lone wolf who's injured crying in the Wolfe, and I'm happy to go and help administer medical aid, but that's not something to be envied or emulated. Freaking mic dry up. I think we get in the podcast here. Yeah. I can't end it here, man. I'm so curious now. Dude, I'm just taking notes over here. Yeah. Well, hey. Listen, man.
Hopefully, to add value and reduce your loneliness and the loneliness of all listeners. Because, again, this is the beauty of this stuff Chaz you can just do that one little thing, and I know it's really difficult. If you can get interested, you will become interesting. And the more you do that because this is really the problem for us in general. And so I'm an American now. I became a citizen, one of the greatest moments of my life a few years ago, and I'm looking at the US going How do I help?
How do I create more nuanced conversations where it's not red or blue? It's not this position or this position. It's going one of my favorite offices is a guy named Carlos Whitaker, and he talks about, like, how can we become human again? It's this idea that there has to be nuance. And this is why I love, you know, conversations. Like, this is what we're just asking better questions. Yeah. You're a deep taker, and that you've got some pretty good answers too. I like that.
I wanna know I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna I don't wanna take us out of the clouds, but I wanna take us down down a couple levels. Yeah. Now it's getting to do it. Let's get in the dirt a little bit, and I wanna know of a good decision through curiosity. I'm gonna I'm gonna label it for you. I don't want just a good decision. I want a good decision through curiosity or through that label or through that lens that has been real in your businesses.
You've done x through the lens of maybe being more curious or or doing the thing that you now teach people, that then led to, like, wow. I would do this over and over and over again. What is it? Such a fantastic question. So the one that pops to mind first is the way that I that my consulting company actually came to be in existence. K. So I would go into companies and do rebrands. And so they're like, oh, we don't really know the problem that we're solving don't know the way that we solve it.
We don't know the result that we provide. We know we're we're growing and we're making money, but we don't know in a meeting, like, who are we really? And sometimes they're like, We were growing, and now we plateaued, and we think it's because we don't really know why that was working before. So we're going on a little bit of a investigation trip here. And so I was with the company. This is, you know, a few years ago. And the CEO calls me a couple weeks afterwards. And I was like, hey.
You know, something wrong? Like, we'd sent them the brand brief and, you know, everything's typically at that point. It's kinda buttoned up, and they'll call me in a couple months and be like, hey. You know, we've have a friend, could you help them? Because all of my businesses referral, which is my favorite. And and so I was, you know, briefly afterwards, I was like, everything alright. He's like, yeah. I've got a problem. I was like, yeah, man. How can I help?
And he's like, are people like you more than they like me? And I don't have a big step. And I was like, what do you mean? And I, you know, I like this guy. I was like, no, you're a lovable guy. What are you talking about? He's like, no, man. Like, we felt a a a culture bump the couple of days that you will hear, people felt energized. And I was like, well, that happens with a new brand. It's a new toy, and it's Christmas morning. He's like, no. Stop placating me. They liked you better.
You asked interesting questions. And he's like, so do you coach? And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, I wanna learn how to be a better leader. I want the teams to grow and develop. And I was like, well, I've been leading teams for, you know, 15 years. But I'm happy to come and, like, give some and he's like, dummy. I'm trying to give you money to come in. Try to pay you, bro. Yeah. Can you come in and fix a problem? Because if I pay for it, I'll do the work.
And if I pay for it, they'll respect that we're spending money on the P and L to make this thing work. And I was like, yeah, man. I'm happy to charge you. Give me a couple of days to think through how I would organize this, and it lit me up. I'd never thought about outside because the two things that I've been really fortunate in this life to be gifted at is and my wife talks about the first part always with a smile because South Africans are kind of known for our storytelling.
It's something that we do, and she would say, you're known for your embellishment. And I was like, what's the truth get in the way of a great story. If we're like if we're doing a biography, let's get the dates right. But if I'm doing a memoir, you're looking for it to be in the story of my life. And so I would tell her most of my stories are more memoir than biography. And so the dates are gonna be wrong, but the idea is gonna be right.
Yeah. My gift thing is really in storytelling on the one side. And then on this side, it's people building. Like, that's my favorite thing to do is come in and go, there's a problem. And it's making somebody's work life miserable. And, hey. Let's tweak a couple of things. And then they come back a couple weeks later and like, I didn't imagine it could be this good. And it was the curiosity like, oh, I've never done that outside of the companies that I've actually Wolfe inside of.
And so we now consult and coach on it has been I mean, it's only the last 3 years, and it's been probably the most fun thing that I've ever do done, which, you know, includes a life of being a touring musician for 10 years long before that. So Yeah. We got so deep into the curiosity stuff that we really don't even know your backdrop yet, but I I love yeah. It it organically happened. Number 1, I think is is the obvious point here.
But little little thing inside of here too is that somebody, a CEO of a company, recognized a gap and and then had a desire to fill it, not buy an easy come back in and take care of it for me, but how do I level up? And so I think that's just, you know, even though that's that part of the story isn't you directly, But, obviously, he chose you to help him level up, which I think is obviously super honoring and help you launch a whole new business.
But that piece right there, that recognition How does that associate to curiousness? Cause even that in itself is a level of curiousness of his own potential. Would you agree? 100%. So I always tell people, if you're struggling with curiosity, ask one simple thing inside your own brain. What if? Because that's what he asked. What if I was better? Yeah. What would be different? What if my employees got a better boss? What would be the what would happen to our product if I was better?
What would happen to the world if we actually Wolfe the problem we said we solved? And then he went, Hold on. That's a multimillion dollar thing that I've just solved for a few bucks in coaching. And, obviously, it's more than a few bucks, but the in terms of the transitive effect of I can make this small investment in myself, and in my team. And what if it actually worked? Yeah. The result is so I mean, enormously exponential. Chaz it's it turned out to be a fantastic question for him. What if?
And I think that's also true, and this is where I would encourage you and and everybody listening inside and outside of their business. I tell everybody you need to feel it before you fix it. And what he felt was the weight of Possibility. And a lot of times people will go to the negative. Well, if I don't do this, all these bad things will happen. If I don't do this, my team will eventually leave If I don't do this, we won't be the brand we promised we would be.
I told him, like, afterwards because he went to that place. He honestly called because it was bad. And I was like, Hey. But I wanna adjust your mindset. What if it got great? What if it was amazing? And we're don't look back. Look forward. Like, what if we looked at a future that you're crafting because of the curiosity. And just to ask the question, what if what if my marriage was better? What if my kids fell in love with me again, and I fell in love with them again.
What if I had real friendships who knew me and understood me? What if my community wasn't divided by red and blue but was interested in the common good again. So, again, that what if one little small pebble can make that ripple if I ask the right question? Yeah. I love that. The the what if, you know, kinda going back to us something that you said, yeah, I don't know, 5 or 6 minutes ago, about, you know, the brain responding to pain fifteen times more than the the celebratory of the good thing.
And so I wanna take that construct that you built for us and put what you just said inside of it. Cause to me, everything that you just said about the what if is how I've always thought. I've never thought about pain. I mean okay. That's strong. I rarely think about pain. I always think about the what if. I'm always looking forward towards what could be as opposed to running from what I don't want. But I also realized that that's not necessarily always the case.
In fact, most of the time, people are thinking about the pain, and they're running from it. And a lot of salespeople use pain or other types of, you know, psychological pieces because our brains do respond to Oh, I don't want Chaz. And so I'm motivated.
Yeah. So how how do we take what we know about brains and that we were spawn to pain maybe at a faster rate or a more intense rate or whatever the the language there is and and apply what you're saying because I'm in a 100% agreement with you that the what if is way more powerful, but everybody talks about the pain being more powerful. What what do you have to say? That's, again, fascinating layout here.
What I would say is if you looked at your history, so there's always the combination of nature and no Right? Sometimes you're just gonna be wired. Your wiring might be slightly different towards the positive a little bit faster. But, also, I would probably say if you and I sat down for a couple us, and we talked about you growing up. There were probably people who are pointing you at the power of looking forward or the power of building.
What I call running towards what you love as opposed to away from what you hate or what you feel. Yeah. So that'll be a part of both your nature and your nurture conversation. Now the nature conversation, like, it's hard to rewire you just by thinking. However, the interesting thing that we don't talk about is if you start to adjust the nurture, the environment in which you surround yourself, You are physiologically a different person every 7 years.
Every part of you is completely different down to a molecular level. And so if you start to say, hey. I'm going to move towards the positive. I'm going to move towards the possibility, the what if the future. In which there is a pleasure in which there is love and affection, hope, and all these things. Eventually, what happens is that's the CEO taking control of your brain and going, oh, we're gonna point resources at this.
And then eventually, all of the frontline workers in your body and your physiology in your mentality are going, oh, we're gonna respond now to what the CEO is telling us as the new directive. And so a lot of this is what has come out, and this is when we have to be really careful. Because I think people take things in tweets and sound bites. I don't want anybody to hear that if you're depressed or anxious or lonely, Hey. Just think differently. That's not helpful.
We need a holistic approach to this. Chaz and I may be in a really positive place where either by you know, the the goodness of our childhood or the influence of a great mentor early on or specific intentional acts over the last 10 years, our physiology has now engineered faster towards pleasure than it is away from pain. Now, neurologically, that's not sure. Your brain is still going, hey. There's danger here. If we've got kids, you're like, Where's the highway? Where's the problem?
Like, our brain is still hardwired for that speed, but our CEO clicks in faster and faster and faster to say, we're gonna move towards the positive. So for anybody in that negative headspace, anybody who's feeling like I can't get out of this thing, it's about going, what's one active decision that I can make today? Even to the point of this is why journaling is so powerful. Just write what if and then start filling that in. 3 minutes a day. You do that over and over and over.
I literally give this exercise to CEOs day in and out. It's called the 3 and 3. So in this exercise, you write down what were 3 wins of the day. That could be something as small as my back didn't hurt as much as I used to. I didn't get in a fight today. Like, pick low hanging fruit at the beginning if you're not having larger winds all the way up to a project went well. My daughter's in great health. My son won the thing or whatever that is. My wife and I had a great date.
I've made a new friend, like, big things. Anywhere in between that. And then the other three is about setting the mindset for the day tomorrow, and we don't need to dig into Chaz, but it's setting the intention which we will know the values of but the science behind this stuff now is irrefutable Chaz it helps with your hurt, and it helps with your longevity, and it helps with long term diseases are all influenced by us being able to intentionally set towards the future.
Hey, Kings and Queens. Chaz Wolf. I wanna talk to you about something that's super important to me. We put a lot of time and effort. We, meaning myself and my team, into this podcast into the content that goes out every single day. And if you have been getting any sort of value or insight from this, we want it to be able to reach other business owners too.
So we would love if you would like, comment, share, leave a review, post, share again all of the things on social media, on all the different platforms, or even on the podcast, a medium of Apple and Spotify. We would love to be able to get our content into more hands, more entrepreneurs so they can grow their business as quick as together, we are building a community of like minded entrepreneurs who are committed to growing their businesses to new heights. So let's do this.
Let's help each other. Let's help each other grow. Wow. Okay. Well, if the listener is still listening, they've gotten They've gotten a whole mind squirrel from us today, and I I wanna just take a quick pause. A little maybe a little mind break for them. I'm enjoying this, dude. Like, I'm I wanna go deeper. Yeah. But for you listening right now, who is Carl? Give us a little bit of, like, how did you, like, you weren't born here.
I totally skipped that portion of it, but I I really wanna hear it. And I want them to know too. So, like, give us a little bit of, like, how did you even get into business? Yeah. So the very short version, and this will probably also show some people like my curiosity muscle has been built over the last 35 years. So when you hear this, you should feel like no pressure. That's like sitting next to a a long distance runner and going, I can run 40 feet this person can go for a hundred miles.
But part of this is in my journey. So we're born and raised in South Africa. My dad wanted us come to the states, you know, the American dream education opportunity, all those sorts of things. And we went to Secuitas route. He got a job in Central Africa. And the company who employed him said, hey. If you work here for a year, we'll send you on paid holiday anywhere in the world you wanna go because he ran this this manufacturing operation for them.
So it worked for them for a year, and then he's like, oh, I wanna go to the States. So we came to the bustling metropolis of Knoxville, Tennessee. Because, I mean, where else would you go? Who wants to go to New York or LA or Miami or Chicago? Nope. Yeah. Go to Dollywood. And so we did that. And the reason for that was the one American friend that he had lived in that part of the world and helped him get a job.
So we flew back to Central Africa to a country called Zahire, and he handed in his notice. And the thing my dad didn't think through is you don't hand notice in in that part of the Wolfe. Once you work for them, you work for them until they tell you you don't work for them. Oh. So, literally, we had to flee the country. And so one of my earliest memories as an eight year old was watching my dad get in the back of a Chaz, and they put a blanket over him.
And that cab drove him across the border into Zambia, and he flew to New York. And the next morning, the company sent and I thought this was the coolest thing because I was into the a team at the time. And they sent guys in, like, a jeep with AKs and the whole bit. So escort him to Wolfe. And they said, alright. Well, where's Pete's? And my mom is just like, he's already gone. And in that part of the world, if you take something from me, I'm gonna take something from you.
That's kind of like the law of reciprocity there. And for some reason, they just drove away. And I was like, I've asked her for years afterwards. I was like, they could've put 5 bullets in me and my 2 brothers, my mom, and my mother who lived with us, and nobody would have been any of the wiser or cared at all. Right. What were you guys thinking? They're like, we just there wasn't another choice. Like, we had to get to where the job was.
And so about 3 months later, a local church there helped raise enough money, and we bought some plane tickets cash, and we had the same experience. Under blankets, middle of the night, McCab, drove across the border, and arrived in the states with two suitcases and a hundred bucks. And so for me, in 1989 when we arrived. It was like, everything is new. Everything is interesting. And so Oh, yeah. The environment itself made my brain explode with possibility. And then you're always the new kid.
Okay. You kinda talk a little funny, and my dad had decided he would bring a parrot with him. Like, we fled the country, but somehow he was still able to bring a parrot with I don't what? Don't forget dad. I How did he get that through customs? And that's to be left at customs to quarantine with him. So my dad's walking around East Tennessee flea markets with a parrot on his shoulder and a big beard And I'm like, we must look like the craziest people on the plane.
But the thing to me was I didn't internalize that. The thing to me was like, I'm at a flea market. I've never met people from East Tennessee before. Like, everybody else was fascinated. I hear this all the time because my accent's really thin and at the at this point in life. People like, oh, like, you're so interesting. Well, that sounds different. I'm like, you're so interesting. You sound so different even after all these years of living in the states.
Yeah. So very, very long story short, I end up going to university in the States, went back to South Africa after Chaz, came back to the states because now I could, you know, finish up my immigration. And I was supposed to be the 1st in our family to finish college and then go do you know, post grad Wolfe, and I was gonna go get my PhD in conflict resolution of global development.
But I had gotten, but bitten by that that little bug that you see over there, little music bug, and started writing these terrible songs in college. And and I used you grew up in Tennessee. Yeah. Exactly. Now. Yeah. For my formative years, I was like, you know, listen. And it's funny. I signed to a country label and toured as a musician for the next 10 years. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And somehow became this incredibly wise question curiosity genius. Oh, well, you're very kind.
The genius is in the searching. The genius is in kind of all of us going, oh, is that interesting? Does that mean something to me? And real genius, you know, Einstein talked about real genius is taking complex things and making them simple. And so, hopefully, today, you know, what I'm taking away from you and I's conversation is, look, I've met another incredibly curious person who can boil it down and be passionate about these things Chaz I love that question.
Like, what's burning in your chest? And so that's, I think, all of us have that genius if only we'll pay attention to it. Yeah. I love that. Okay. I wanna ask you some some questions here to kinda end up. I wanna know about family for you for the for the curious individual for the professional who's building businesses, I believe that obsession is what has made me successful in life. I'm obsessed with the what if, but I've also found that obsession with my Wolfe. Is pretty good.
And obsession with my children works out pretty good as Wolfe. And really anything that I'm saying that I want, if there isn't obsession behind it, then it really doesn't work. So my question for you, Carl, is how have you been able to obsess over those other things outside of the business at the same time? Yeah. So I I'll go ahead and and prewarn you. This is an entirely different podcast. So I'm gonna I'm gonna pull the pin knowing we can't get to all this. We can't go there.
Okay. It's not a it's not a 3 hour podcast. We'll leave that to Rogan. But for us But but it but it could be a lead into a version 2 or a episode 2. I'm 100% and I'm very open to that. Although all your listeners should know, and Chaz is doing this thing right. Like his team and his staff are on it. I'm sure I'll get an invite for, like, June of 2028. That's right. Yeah. Like, this podcast was booked, I think, 6 months ago. That's right.
I was like, what is the most organized podcast team I've ever come across? And I do a fair amounts of these. But with all that to say, the pin that I would pull on this is 2 parts. The first part is so I love your word. My word would be slightly different. Mine is adoration. So, like, I have this adoring affection for my wife and then my kids and then my friends and community and then kind of everything else, which also includes my my Wolfe. So that's the first pet, slightly different Wolfe.
But that's the beauty of this is everybody can have their own Wolfe, and it doesn't have to be monolithic. The second part of this is I actually don't I think balance is a myth. Yeah. And this is my main thesis in life. And probably the thing that I get asked to speak on the most. Is this idea of order versus balance. You and I, for the last 25 years of our life, since we've you know, come to the space where we're like, what do I wanna be, Chaz do I wanna do?
We have been swimming in the waters of balance. Because if you ask any man or woman who is in a professional place, one of the questions that they go, hey. What is your work life? Right. Balance. And then I'll ask somebody. I was like, hey. So I think it's a unicorn don't think it actually exists. And they're like, no. Like, there's books on it and you figured out. I'm like, so let me ask you this. Let me ask you who were three people that you know in perfect balance all the time.
And you have to know them. Like, know their marriage, know their parenting, know their finances, know their business, And you can tell me that for months and seasons at a time that they're living in perfect balance and immediately everybody goes, I've never met one person in I've been asking that question for 15 years now. I've never met anybody who's gone, oh, no. No. I know the 3 and here they are. I was like, let me go study them because I want to live. They know something. I don't know.
So what I came to start asking was, well, if this thing that we read books on and there's entire genres of literature and movies and podcasts on and even music of like, hey. How do I have all the things? If it doesn't exist, well, then what does exist? And I started looking around the world around us. And so I see natural order. You plant a seed, then the next step is you water the thing, next step is you kind of protect it.
And then after a time, it grows up and there's fruits, and this is how things develop. And so if that's true of nature, maybe it's true of us as well. And I think the real work for anybody is discovering what your order is. And so this is when I tell people. This is descriptive of my experience. Not necessarily prescriptive to yours because Carl's order is Carl and God, so my spiritual journey Next, it's Carl and Catherine, that's my wife. 3rd place is Carl, Charlie, and Caitlin.
Those are my kids, and then 4th is everything else. And my job every single day is to wake up and go, how am I tapping into something larger than myself? And so that's the part where I talk about it being descriptive to me. I will tell anybody else, just find anything bigger than you because you're not big enough. When the world really shakes, If you're not meditating, if you're not taking time away, if you haven't found a spiritual practice, when it really shakes, It's gonna be bad.
It's gonna be really, really bad. Yeah. Then the next place is once I really come to understand my identity from something larger than me, then I can give the best version of me to my wife, my first place on this planet. And then we've done a really intentional job of tonight for us as date night. And so we will leave. And I remember the first time we got a babysitter, I had some well intentioned friend say, hey. Got a trick for you. It's a trick.
When the babysitter comes, make sure you've got, like, some M and M's. Give it to the babysitter. The M and M's will give the the M and M's to the kids And then while that's happening, you just disappear, and then there's no fussing, no crying, no whatever. It's like, I appreciate the intention behind that. I'm not gonna do that. So when we got the babysitter and, obviously, you know, Charlie, my oldest is a little bit older, about three and a half 4th time.
I get down on one knee, and I'm like, hey, bud. Mom and I are going out on date. What's the first thing he's gonna say to me? No. I wanna go. I wanna go. Dad, I wanna go. And the first thing I but I would I would love you and I can do something at a different time, but this is special time for me and mommy because that's my best friend. People are like, oh, I don't know if I like Chaz. And he's like, but daddy, I'm your best friend. I was like, I love you. You're not. Mommy's my best friend.
And one of the things that I will tell you is it creates such a sense of security in the kids if your spouse or relationship is strong. Yeah. And then from that, they're like, hold on. So number 2 is not a bad gig on the whole planet. So my son and daughter are number 2 to only one other person on the planet. It's a pretty good gig because even right now, as much as I love Chaz and the audience, if one of the kids came in and there was a real problem, be like, hey, man. I love you.
We're gonna pause. We can edit this thing together, but, you know, just walked into the room. And that's not you and I right now. And so I think once you can start having those conversations and daily setting alignment to that order, it's this funny thing. It's much like, have you ever been surfing Yeah. Not personally, but in there on a boogie board, though. Plus. Okay. Same. Booky board. Same same concept. The order of the boogie board is I have to get out to the water.
And then I'm going to put this thing under me. That's step number 2. Then step number 3 is I'm gonna wait for the wave, and then as it comes, I'm gonna kick, and then the force of that is gonna push me. And by the way, what does that create? It creates a sense of rhythm. And then for a brief few moments Wolfe you're on that boogie board, it creates a sense of I'm really balanced. And isn't this fun.
But if you only chase the balance without first prescribing the order, you would never get to ride that blue ball. Yeah. Yeah. Or have the enjoyment of getting out and taking each step before the balance. And after because Once the balance is over, the ride isn't done necessarily. Okay. Yeah. So the ride, not the balance, the journey, the order, love the idea of order, You're speaking to a orderly person, and so I appreciate Chaz.
For the for those that are listening that when they hear order, they're like, don't put me in a box, bro. What would you say to that person who's like, I hear you, but, like, mhmm, I don't like order. Yeah. So you'd probably be talking to me I'm probably like, I love and admire people like Chaz. I am not a everything in its place and every place in thing or whatever the saying is for that. Yeah. You can tell I'm apparently on the order guy because I can't even quote the thing properly.
What I would say about the order is has to be, and this is where I come back to the word adore. Like, those are the things that I adore, and so they go in that natural order. I feel iteration from my make up, and so it is the most pleasurable place for me to be first. Love it. And then after that, I've I've the most iteration and given the most to this one person, my spouse. And so what an enjoyable second place to be?
And then any of us who's ever had kids, you're like, Oh, that's a different sort of adoration to both give and receive. And then finally, the book that you do, if you're committed to it, if it's something that comes easily and you have an enjoyment about it, that order kind of creates itself. So it no longer feels like if you told me, hey, Carl, here's the recipe. Stick to it and do the thing. I'm not a great baker because that feels kind of bucksy.
This order is a little bit more liberating because it's the natural kind of overflow of who you are. Yeah. And I think that you're not only are you spot on. We both know that you're on, but just for a further explanation for the listener, it's based on you. So the work that you just talked about is figuring out what that order looks like for you, and your order might look different than mine. Mine's in alignment with exactly what you just said.
So so we're the same in that way, but but if I had a different perspective of what my order was and I was following Carl's order, then I wouldn't be adoring using his words in order. Chaz would be out of alignment or out of balance. And you'll feel it. If you feel anxiety or pressure. And again, holistically, there's a lot of reasons for Chaz. But one of the reasons might be is that the order is out of order.
And so that's the beauty of this is if you feel less than a 100% deep contentment right now, it would be one of the many questions that I have you ask yourself is. What is the order I say it should be and what is the actual order? It's kind of like what we do with brands. This is your aspirational brand, but it's not your actual who you want to be, but it's not who you are. And when those things are misaligned, it creates real static, real misaligned of purpose and lines.
Wolfe, there's also a reality there that that they are different, and I it's okay to be in the actual brand or the current way I say things are, but they aren't yet. And that yet word is the is the hinge point. It's like, well, not there yet. You know, for me, something super practical.
I've said this on podcast many times Chaz I would say time with my family was important, but I it wasn't on my calendar because only business was on my calendar, but but I would talk about time blocking and how my calendar would was so important. Like, well how can the calendar principally be the thing that brings order, but the thing that I'm saying is most important isn't on the calendar, like, just so simple. 100%.
And you bring such a magnificently good point in that one of the first things Chaz I do with leaders, CEOs, team leaders, anybody is I say, hey. Chaz you show me your calendar? And I can, like, show you which of these gets kept, which of these gets bumps, which gets put it'll show me what's actually important, and it's fine. I'm just trying to get you to see what is actually important to you these days.
And a lot of times for most people, it's hyper reactionary, and that just means something's always on fire. So how do we get the extinguisher? And then after we've got that thing under control, do we actually become proactive as opposed to reactive to the calendar and then let it teach us what's really important to us. Yeah. I've I've been jiving with you. I got your little comment about your your son and and teaching him about date night.
It's funny because as when you brought up the M and M's in my mind, I'm like, Oh, that is not what I would do. Let's see where this goes. And so I was pleasantly surprised with your response because we're the same way. Like, I mean, I haven't said I'm going on a date specifically, but it's, hey. We're we're leaving. And and then, you know, when they were 3 or 4 of that same age, it's we're going on a date. And so they know, like, hey. We're we're going on date.
And, like, this is what this is what mommy and daddy's do wanna date. We we talk to each other, and we we pay attention because normally paying attention to you guys and giving you guys love and and even explaining what happens, talking to them like they understand because they do. Yeah. Oh, it's shocking. I'm actually picking up all the time. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's muddling. Right? That's all we're doing. In the brain and the neurology world, these are mirror neurons.
It's where we get the monkey c monkey do. They're watching and imitating all the time. And so are are the things we're doing with imitating? Yeah. Exactly. Love that. Okay. One last question for you, Carl. Are you ready? Yeah. I wanna know if you had the opportunity to whisper in the younger Carl's ear. What would you say? Man, that's a great one. What would I say to younger me? Honestly, start your own thing earlier.
Because I've been doing it, like I said, my 2 companies for the last 2 years or 3 years. And have have worked for other people and done that thing. I am just wired for so much. This is gonna sound silly. I'm wired for so much whimsy, so much possibility. That working for other people was like, oh, this is just the way it has to be. And what I've encountered in the last few years is If I'm not having fun, I'm probably doing it wrong. But we'll just be, like, honest.
I make so much more money on the other side of having fun. Like, when I'm in the right place doing the thing that only I know how to do in the way that I know how to do it, it's weird. The phone rings more of the clients get bigger, all of that sort of stuff. And so it's that idea of, like, hey. Try this thing on your own faster because I think the trajectory of my family and I's life would have been different because I did I did that very boldly in music.
Like, so I went out on my own very quickly and was like, hey. We can figure this thing out.
But when it came to music doesn't pay a lot of those bills, so I still had corporate jobs and working for other people doing all the things now that I do as a consultant, but you're giving it away at a fraction of the cost on somebody else's timeline and in their culture Chaz you can try and influence as much as you possibly can but it's very different than when you birth the culture yourself, and then it can be whatever you want it to be.
So I probably would have told myself to take the jump a lot earlier. I love your just honesty. And and also too, the fact that it's not weighing you down, you're fully living in that happiness or that joy or that fun, as you call it, even right now, and and doesn't have to go back. It would have been nice, but I love the the levity that you bring to that. It's it's great, great perspective, but here we go. From here forward. Right? Yeah. I've got a friend. He says up until now.
They talk about anything in the past. Like, you know, if you were talking about fitness or your business or anything else that not exactly as you want it to be. Be like, until now I haven't been good at this. Okay. It gives just such a blank check to what today and tomorrow in the future hold, which I love. Yeah. It's that what if. Carl, how can a listener find you? Number 1, if if they're a brand looking to up level and go to that next aspirational brand, not their actual brand.
They're looking to rebrand, maybe. How can they find you? And and, also, if they're a CEO, And they have been provoked to curiosity through our conversation. How can they find you that way? Yeah. So the CEO or team leader who wants to improve culture and efficiency and just happiness of the culture. By the way, on that side, we're very much in the dirt. So a lot of what we talked about today was very philosophical, but We have what we call the 7 figure questions.
So most companies are asking 7 questions the wrong way that are costing them 7 figures. We could teach a company to ask the 7 right questions for everything from conflict to expectation setting to ideation, to onboarding that can make them 7 figures more. And so to find out more about that, you can go to get more curious.com, and then you can just click on the calendar link. Get some time with me. And then on the branding side, that's a fun story. It's Tall Tail. So talltale brands.com.
Our mascot's a big giraffe, so it'll help you remember a tall tale. But and the name for that company came out of a toast Chaz you can kind of tell, I tend to be the person where they're like, at a party, hey, Carl, say something because it'll come maybe quickly and hopefully more succinctly than I have a new podcast. But they're like, hey, Carl, give it toast. And I'm like, I have one ready, and it just popped out. And it was like, to old friends and new and tall tales that are true.
And that was the name that we picked for the company because we're like, we really are telling these, magnificent stories that actually happened to also be true And so that's just tall talebrands.com. Love it. Carl, you are a magnificent mind and an incredible king at what you do. In all areas of life. And so I I'm honored to know you, man, and I look forward to what comes for you and me, but, thank you for being here. We appreciate that.
Not only just the time and the value that you've given, but we wanna wish you blessing on your family and your businesses, all that you put your hand to in 2023, all the clients that you're gonna touch. Thank you for being here, brother. Well, I receive all those blessings. Thank you so much for the time. Thank you for listening to gathering the Kings today. I hope that you were able to pull out a few nuggets to go apply into your business right away.
More importantly, though, I hope that you're realizing that it takes more to be successful than just being by yourself doing it all on your own, carrying the weight all by yourself. What I have realized, not only in my own journey from multiple businesses and multiple different industries and now interviewing literally over 2 or 300 other very successful 7, 8, and 9 figure business owners is that it's tough to do it alone.
And so gathering the Kings literally exists to bring together successful entrepreneurs. In fact, we are putting together 1000 Kings, specifically who are grateful, but not done. We're intentionally assembling kings who fight tooth and nail for their business, family communities, and here's what we believe Chaz in the pursuit of excellence in those areas, that it ignites within us the responsibility to govern power and forge, a lasting legacy.
So if that relates and and resonates with you and you know that you need people around you, sharp qualified other very successful business owners. I want you to go to gathering the kings dot com. I want you to take a look at what we're doing and see if it makes sense for you to be part of our pursuit to 1000 kings. Talk soon.