Right, Let's turn to one of today's biggest stories. For former senior Transnent executives Brian Morlife, Siabonga Gama, ANOJ Singh and Tamsanka Jiane have been arrested for allegedly moving ninety three million Rand through a company called Trillion Capital. All of this in the context of a locomotive purchase process that saw a massive contract to buy one thousand and
sixty four new locomotives. One aspect of this case, by the way, is also the subjects of another matter that was underwey in the Johannesburg High Court where I think nine people are standing in the dock for that. It's hard to keep track of all of this. It's hard as well to look at this in the context of the larger issue of trying to find some kind of reckoning for the country in terms of justice for everything
that happened in the state capture era. There are of course people who say the state capture era never really ended, it's just morphed, but that perhaps is something we can discuss at another stage. Let's look at this particular case and a transnet in particular as well. Michael Marchant is head of investigations at the organization Open Secrets and joins us now on seven h two drive. Mister Martin, and
welcome and thanks very much for your time. If we were to locate things that went on a Transnet and how they were scrutinized at the zond Or Commission, my recollection is that Justice Raymond Zondor said that Transnet was a key nexus, a key hub for the corruption of that particular period of South African history. Why do you think this court case is so important?
Afternoon, John, and afternoon to those that are listening. I think that you've kind of hit the nail on the head already, which is that the transmit cases are so important in terms of tackling state capture for I think two reasons. The one is that from a monetary perspective, Transnet was the central site of capture. So we're talking about just over forty billion Rand in terms of the value of the contracts and certainly the amount that was
extracted kind of through the Gupta enterprise. Again, we're talking about seventy five eighty percent of all of the money flows. It's about what happened to Transnet and as you said, what the Zonder Commission kind of concluded is that what was happening at Transnet was the kind of emblematic example of how systemic capture was. So it was about the appointment of people like Molefe, Singh and Gama, two positions
where they could manipulate procurement processes. And then it was also about how that money was then used and how it was laundered, and how it was then repurposed for other kind of activities within the so called Gupta enterprise. So I think kind of for those two reasons, these cases and the arrest of individuals that we shouldn't forget the Zonder Commission called kind of key architects of state capture. They become so important. Yeah.
So, I mean, if we go back to the very basic deal that was being done, the locomotive procurement cost was initially I think thirty eight billion Rand. It eventually spiked up to fifty billion Rand. As I understand it, this case is not looking at that price increase. It's looking at advisory fees that were paid around this. I don't know why advisory fees needed to be paid in the first place, but by all accounts they were huge.
They were and I think maybe just to say John, that I've also been trying to piece together this afternoon exactly what this case is about. Yes, and from the different reporting that I've seen, it does appear that it may be related to two different transactions. The one is the very early on transaction to purchase ninety five locomotives from China South Rail, and the allegation there is that Singh and others violated human practices and kind of unlawfully
elevated the payments without border approval. And then separately, as you've said, it's the transaction advisory fees linked to the ten sixty four deal. Now, those transaction advisory fees are really important again for two reasons. The one is that, as you've said, the payment was very high, was around
about ninety three million Rand. The allegation of the Zonder Commission is that that was for essentially consulting that never took place, and so it was an unlawful payment to Trillion simply to get the money into the GUPTA system
in order to be laundered. A second part of that which is so important, and if that is what this case is about, it it really goes centrally to the allegation of racketeering against the Guptas is at that money, a lot of it from Trillion was paid to another company linked to the goods of the company called Alba Times, and ultimately through that process it was used in the now famous procurement at scom Or of Optimum Coal mine by together. So those who really know their state capture
and are able to p see things together. It's about how those advisory fees from one site of state capture were laundered essentially into another part to allow for that purchase. And so again you know, some of these cases already before the courts, as you've mentioned, but this seems to go centrally to some of these allegations of the systemic nature of capture.
Tell us a little bit about Trillion, because the name comes up, and the name comes up rather regularly. Who were they and what role did they play in this? And to the best of my knowledge, nobody from Trillion has ever been charged with anything. And unlike firms like McKinsey, perhaps was they had an international reputation such as it was to protect they went and made compensation and gave money back. But I'm not aware of Trillion ever being held to account. Please put me right if I'm wrong.
But who are they and why do they matter?
So Trillian was a company that emerged out of Regiments, which is another company I think people have heard about in relation to state capture. But it and some of its directors have actually been the site of or have
been the subject of criminal investigations and charges. And so the really important thing I think to remember in this case that we are, of course, you know, making a big deal of the fact that Molefes Singh and others have been arrested, but of course they have already been arrested in face ongoing criminal charges in relation to Transmit
in relation to their twenty twenty to sharing. Now, part of that twenty twenty two case also relates to the arrest and charge of Eric Wood, who was a long running director of Trillion, And the allegations are are twofold against Trillion. The one is that they were used to provide allegedly advice to Transnet and especially the trans Net pension fund that allowed money to be extracted from that.
So that's the one allegation. But of course, as I've discussed already, the second allegation is that Trillion was paid inflated advisory fees from entities like Transnet and they would immediately make those payments on to other entities within the good to enterprise that would allow the funds to be laundered. What I would say to those listening who are interested in going back and really understanding the money flows part
of the story. Paul Holden some might remember from giving testimony, was under commit really provided extraordinary detail, forensic detail about the money flows and how entities advisory firms like Trillion and Trillion Financial Advisory were involved.
So when a case like this comes to court, Michael March and I think there may have been a time when people would have said, Okay, great. The zond Or Commission's work is manifesting itself in the criminal justice system, clicking or maybe creaking into action, but taking action. Nonetheless, the record that said on state capture cases in general or in particular, and forensic and white collar crime cases
in particular is not particularly distinguished. And yet at something like the zond Or Commission, and I get that the burden of proof at a commission is very, very different to a court case. Nevertheless, the detail set down is so exhaustive in this plus in the investigations by groups like yourselves and I'm a bungane and yet and yet when it comes to court, it doesn't seem to stick. What's your take on that.
Well, I think that John, the answer to that is that unfortunately most of these things have not yet been fully tested through the rights and the reason for that. I think the reason for the delays are multiple. The one is there's certainly there are allegations that the MPa has been very quick to arrest and much slower to
move from arrest to the actual prosecution. So as I mentioned the very high profile arrests in twenty twenty two in relation to Transnet, there's still not been a court date with regards to that, and so what we've seen is we've seen lots and lots and lots of cases being enrolled but not moving forward. And of course the MPa would also say that sometimes that's because the accused try and slow down the process, and we know that
our courts are very full. So there's a whole range of reasons for the delays in terms of the evidence. I think your point is so important is that the other thing that hasn't yet happened is there hasn't been a full test of the MPA's ability to enter the so called Gupta leaks as forensic evidence. So for those who've been involved in the investigations and looked at that detail, we certainly know that the amount of forensic evidence is
absolutely overwhelming. But of course the NPA has to go through the proper legal process to get that admitted, and there hasn't been a case yet where that has happened. Now for Transnett's a good example. If you want to prove the money laundering and the racketeering charges, you're going
to have to rely on that primary evidence. And our hope is still that a case like this and that case, like the previously enrolled trans Net case, they will be really the defining cases because if the MPa can make it stick on this, it will go a long way to a legal precedent on the fact that this was a systemic kind of enterprise of state cap to rather than kind of individualized cases of corruption.
Thank you so much, Michael Marchant, head of investigations at Open Secrets. Long long way to go. It started today in the palm Ridge Magistrates called twenty seven minutes past five,