Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Later this week we will have the third installment of our series with Earth, looking at fossil fuel involvement in schools. But today we have an update on our season five story. American attorney Stephen Donziger, who's been on house arrest for more than seven hundred days as a result of his involvement in the Chevron, Ecuador case, was sentenced last week on Friday.
This court has already determined pre trial that mister Donziger, if convicted, would not be sentenced to more than six months in prison or a five thousand dollars five.
Donziger was given the maximum, a six month jail sentence, despite having served, as I said, more than seven hundred days on house arrest already. It's the sentencing that Donziger and his team were expecting, and there are multiple appeals underway already. We'll have updates on all of that. Our reporter Karen Savage was in the courtroom during the sentencing.
I'll be joined by her after the break. We also talked to Donziger in the lead up to the hearing and spoke with a few other folks after the sentencing. All of that is coming up after this quick break.
A long time, no talk. How are you, how have you been?
You know, we continue fighting to you know, get justice for the people of Ecuador and to you know, make sure the lawyers, including me or protect did Obviously, this has been a hell of an ordeal. I've been in house arrest for two years two months on a misdemeanor. Unprecedented US history, as I think, you know, ever given a lawyer convicted of the supposed crime that I committed is ninety days at home detention. And again I've been more than eight times that already and I haven't even
been sentenced. So my sentencing is next Friday. Judge Presca, who I believe was appointed illegally by the charging judge in a case that was rejected by the normal federal prosecutor. She's going to sentence me. She has, according to her, she has the right to put me in prison for six months on top of the two years plus of house arrest. And We're going to go in there in good faith and request that she let me go home and be free, get my passport back, and continue my
human rights work. This is this length of my detention is unprecedented, unjustified. I believe it's arbitrary, and I believe it's illegal.
Right so much as happen, and since we've last talked, so not only the bench child of the conviction and the upcoming sentencing, but you've gotten a ton of support. Can you tell a little talk a little bit about all the organizations and different folks that have written or expressed letters of support.
Sure, I have support, you know, from a lot of people and organizations that I you know, just stepped up because they recognize that what's happening to me is terribly unjust and that it represents really an attack on indigenous rights and Indigenous people who want to historic pollution judgment against a big oil company. You know, everyone knows. I think that looks at this that this goes way beyond
Stephen Donziger. You know, this is a wholesale attack by the fossil fuel industry on the very idea of indigenous rights and environmental justice and human rights lawyer for that matter.
So they're really using my case to try to destroy the very idea that these types of cases can be done and that lawyers, you know, have the right to do these cases and you know, they're trying to create a situation where if I, if a lawyer in this case, me can be detained at home for over two years for winning a human rights case against an oil company.
No one will do the work and the industry will have fewer these types of challenges and courts, you know, not just in the United States, but all over the world. So there's an industry wide strategy to the attacks on me. They're being facilitated by two US federal judges who are come out of the federalist society, and they're very pro
corporate and I believe they're abusing their power. And you know what we're seeing now in the United States is you know the trend that sort of has been going on in other countries like China and Russia and Hungary and Saudi Arabia and Brazil now of you know, authoritarian leaders using the courts and criminal cases, it's fake criminal cases to attack their political opponents. That's now happening here and you see it in my case, not so much
the government but Chevron. You know, the fossil fuel industry has so much power now over our federal courts they are able to essentially take control of the machinery of the prosecution and prosecute me directly through a Chevron law firm, which has never happened before. So this is a corporate prosecution under the rubric of the United States government, but
it's controlled by Chevron, and it's really scary. So, you know, these very dangerous trends that I think threatened free speech, threaten the rule of law, threatened advocacy, threatened democracy are penetrating our country now in ways that we have never seen before. And that's manifesting in my case.
Your case has been going on so long that when it first started, that had kind of just begun in this country. But now if you look at all the states have some of so any protest laws. If you look at Mbridge that literally has admitted paying off law enforcement or energy transfer in Louisiana, that bought its own security uniform of shares officers to chef deputies that in recent years or months, If you put together all of those things, it's a really horrible picture.
It is it is. And you know, look, the corporate power, particularly of the fossil fuel industry in our country, in the United States, has never been stronger, and it's just shocking to me that our institutions that normally are designed to check corporate power, like the Congress, the courts, the president executive branch, are pretty much under the sway of the fossil fuel industry in ways that people can't even see your I don't even think fully real lives, you know.
For example, in the Line three protests, the fact that the pipeline company is paying public police means that those police are answering to the company. They're no longer public police, and they're arresting you know, protesters, including indigenous protesters, who are on their own territory, by treating you know, that is part of the trend Chevron taking over the prosecutorial function in New York after the charges from this you know, pro Chevron judge were flat out rejected by the regular
federal prosecutor. All these things are part of the problem that you identify and others identify, you know, enhance penalties for protesters trying to claim that anyone exercising their free speech rights around an oil installation could be charged with terrorism. These are all very dangerous. These are all very dangerous to be moments that I believe threatened, you know, the rule of law in America and really raised questions about what kind of society we want to live in.
You know, they are now going back and resurrecting this investigation in Ecuador. And I know you said you had just really learned about this, But why might they be doing that? Do you have any kind of theories.
Of Oh, I think that it's a desperate attempt by Chevron to come up with some other what they would call some determination by some low level prosecutor that might support their theory that the you know, the historic decision against them that was won by indigenous peoples and farmer communities with somehow the product of fraud, and that's what
they're trying to do. You know. The problem they have is despite spending literally three billion dollars on sixty law firms and two thousand lawyers, six PR firms and one hundred and fifty investigators, who knows what else. I mean, they have websites up created just to smear my reputation. They spent massive sums of money. They have failed, utterly failed to get rid of the financial risk they face as a result of this historic court victory. So, you know,
having spent so much money, they're down in Ecuador. There's a new you know, pro corporate government, Giamo Lasso as the president. He's trying to appease you know, foreign investors. He's trying to appease the State Department, which by the way, works hand in hand with Chevron down there. And part of this is they lobbied the Attorney General's office to open up this you know bolt Bs investigation where they're literally interviewing indigenous peoples and peasants about a supposed fraud
that occurred in the case. It's just pathetic, and you know, I fully expect this to either die on the vine because there's no evidence, or they'll just manufacture something and put out some report that Chevron's lawyers will write claiming they found evidence of this, that and the other thing. But you know, it's too late for that. The case is over. It's been affirmed a twenty eight appellat judges and equador in Canada, including the highest courts of both countries.
So is there anything else that you think about your sentencing or what we just talked about about, you know, what's going on at Gordon now that you think I haven't asked or it's important that people know and understand going forward.
Oh, I will say this, I need support personally. Obviously what happens to me is connected to this bigger picture that we're talking about today, but I also want to survive on a personal level. I have a wife and a fifteen year old son, and I want to live the rest of my life happy and productive. So if I would just ask that if you're in the New York area, please come to court in October one. We're having a rally at eight thirty in the morning, and
then come into court and show your support. If you can't get there, you can also listen in my telephone. You can get the number off my Twitter page at ads Donziger. It's not up there yet, but we're going to put it up soon. If Judge Presca's sentences me to jail prison, please don't forget about me. And if you're around trying to come visit, I don't even care if I don't know you, like I need visitors constantly.
We need to convey to the authorities in the prison the courts that I have a lot of support at all times so I can be protected if I have to go inside. Although I do hope it doesn't happen. I think, you know, I think that at this point there's so many people demanding I be released. As again, I've stirred now eight times longer than the longest sentence ever for someone a lawyer convicted of my level of offense. So we're going to go in there and good faith
and ask Judge Prescott to release me. And I really pray it happens. And by the way, if I suddenly become in komunicado as of like mid morning October, first you'll we know what happened, but I will be I will be back at some point. And I want to also say, first of all, thank you to you and
Amy Westervelt. You guys have really done amazing work to bring the story to the to the public and your your your journalism is an example of a check on the very forces we're talking about, an independent check that is all too rare now in America. You know, I will say that the big media, the New York Times included CNN, I have completely ignored my attention for over
two years. It don't cover it. So to have journalists like y'all dig in and the professional, intelligent way that you have is a huge important thing, not only to me people of ecclorbit to our society. So I thank you for that, and you know, just keep monitoring and watching, and you know, if I end up getting incarcerated, I don't want to go to prison, obviously, but I will go in and you know, deal with it and come out.
Karen, you were at the courthouse today for Donziger's sentencing hearing.
What was it like?
What was kind of the mood in the courtroom.
It was tense, I can tell you that. And I can tell you that it went on seemingly forever, and I was not even the one being sentenced, so I can't imagine how long it must have felt for Stephen Donziger and for his wife and son who were also there.
Oh God, I want to have you talk me through what like what happened during the hearing and anything that stood out in terms of what Judge Presca said.
Yeah, so a bunch of things happened. First up was the folks for Stephen's side and his lawyers just kind of went through all of the reasons why he you know, wasn't didn't need to be sentenced to any prison time, why the time spent on house arrested was more than enough, you know, not necessarily arguing that he is innocent, although you know, he has never said he was guilty of
that crime. But they just went through and they highlighted the letters of support and so went through all of that, went through kind of the history of the fact that you know, Okay, some of the time Donziger may not have filed the correct motion at the right time, or
appealed on time, or did certain things procedurally correct. But if you take a look according to what his attorneys argued, you know, you've got Stephen Donziger working at his house, at his apartment, at the table, and on the other side you've got a you know, an army of lawyers at Chevron's disposal. Of course, it's not going to be equal, right, And then it was after the attorney went Stephen went up and made a statement so which I think was
really difficult for him. I think the one of the hardest parts, I know, even just for me as a parent hearing was him talk about the times that he has missed out on spending with his son, you know, just having to have the ankle brace went on having. So I think that that had a big impact on him.
One of the themes that through Donziger's lawyers and his presentation or his statement, One of the things the lawyers really stressed was that, you know, Judge Presca can't undo all of the things that have happened that they consider unjust, that are just you know, all the weird things that we've talked about that just don't make sense. She can't do all of that, She can't correct them. But what
she could do is do no more harm. Once Rita Glavin got up, she you know, as you know, she's really deferred to the court for sentencing, she said that she doesn't agree with all of Ron Kobe's history of the case because Kobe went through the he went through pretty thoroughly the entire case, which took quite a while. You know, she said, to some points where where Kaplan had ruled differently, and she argued that, you know, Steven Donziger got where he is based on not complying with
the court orders. And that was really what she stressed during her whole time, was you know that he willfully didn't comply with what the court said. He it purposely told the court he wouldn't comply he has expressed no remorse and just kind of really beat home and stressed his non compliance according to her, with Kaplan's orders. So it was really kind of back and forth, he says.
She said, and some of the same stuff that I think we've talked about before, where if you listen to one side, it really strongly appears that one thing happened, but when you listen to the other side, it really strongly appears that something else happened.
I mean, yeah, that has been That's like a hallmark of this case across the board. Is just just that there's no middle ground between the two. But the one thing that seems objectively true here is that Donziger has already served effectively two years of a sentence for a crime that comes with a maximum of six months. So was that discussed at all?
You know, it wasn't discussed by either part, by either side. But then when Judge Presca read her opinion, she actually and I think it would have been pre typed before and she just read off of it.
But what she.
Talked about was that actually being on house arrest doesn't count as time served. Apparently being on house arrest is not equal to being detained according to the law, and you know, she would cite cases and I don't know, I'm a lawyer. I don't know all these cases. I
haven't looked them all up. But apparently somewhere back in the legal system, they've decided if you're on house arrest, that you are not a officially detained And there was some discussion also comparing saying, you know, Stephen Donzegeer was on house arrest and couldn't leave his apartment, but at the same time, much of New York was on house arrest, you know, a form of house arrestor in COVID, and
couldn't leave their apartments and couldn't do anything. So he wasn't really any worse shape than New Yorkers were during stay at home orders, which you know, there's one.
I mean, we got back to that like the first episode of our of the podcast, right where he talked about all the ways that it's different, including being woken up in the middle of the night, you know, every other week when the battery runs out and stuff like that.
I mean, yeah, yeah, you know, and there's also you know, there is it's a whole different situation. You aren't house arrest. Yeah, this is not supposed to leave your house. Not supposed to leave your house means I could run to the corner store and get a loaf of bread or a bagel or.
Something, and I can go to the g store whenever I want. I can go for a walk whenever I want. Yeah, people can at least go outside and get a walk and some fresh air during.
Right and during most of that time, you weren't going to face any illegal consequences. Now, however, when you're on house arrest, if you decide to run to the bodega to pick up a bagel, or you decide you want to go to the park for a run and you just go, I mean, there's a whole different level of consequence. So that to me doesn't really stack up at all.
No, No, So okay, let's talk about what the sentence actually was and how Prespa delivered it.
So she went point by point through the contempt charges and some of theimes. She pushed back on the fact that he had in fact, in her eyes, not appealed some of the things that he said he was waiting appeal on. She went through the point where he went he purposely entered into civil contents in order to be able to have an appeal. Hard I said, well, you know, when you go on to contempt, you don't get to decide whether it's simil or criminal. It was basically a
straight upholding of Caplan's rulings. She sentenced him to six months.
And then I know that they asked for him to serve that time on house arrests, right, So how did that go? It' very it's very confusing sentencing, I think, so as much as you can kind of unpack the two appeals that are now under way and and what exactly it all means for Donzeger.
Yeah, so my understanding is that he will appeal the actual conviction and there's a new legal team that will take over and work on the appeal, and that's an appeal to the second Circuit, so that I think is already kind of in the works and has been planned and there's nothing changing about that. And what he wanted was what was considered post conviction bail, and they had
filed a motion for them, at which Presca denied. Basically, she reiterated that she thinks he's a flight risk, that now that he's been convicted, he's even more of a flight risk, and so he should be detained, you know, he should be detained, And so she denied the request for bail. Normally, what that would mean would be that the marshals who actually came into the courtroom like right around the time she said that, and they were standing in the back. I was just like, wow, these guys
are really moving in. But he could have been detained right there. Donziger, his legal team, everybody who was with him pretty much said beforehand, even he's going to get six months. So they, I'm sure had already realized that if the bail request was denied, they would immediately appeal the denial because they now are appealing the denial of bail.
He gets to stay out with the understanding that he would file the request for an expedited appeal only of the bail, of whether or not he on the bail, you know, is on bail or is not on bail within a week. And so ultimately in that in that question, I believe the Second Circuit will make a determination and whether they say, Okay, this guy has to stay on house arrest, Okay, this guy is not a flight risk.
He can be free in say New York, or this guy has to wait the results of his appeal from behind bars is the Second Circuits decision.
Mm hmm, okay, wow, and that will.
Come I don't know. I know it has to be filed within a week, but I'm not sure how long it will take. A few people I talked to after the hearing seem to think that the UN opinion that came out a couple of days ago would likely play a fairly big role in that, because, you know, on a global stage, it looks pretty bad when this human rights lawyer in the United States is on you know, is behind bars well, is waiting his appeal. Yeah, yeah, it does look bad.
Yeah, But like I don't I haven't gotten any sense that PRESCA, for the rest of you know, the court seems to feel any kind of pressure from these these things, because that isn't I mean, okay, yes, now that you in and saying it, but there's been several international bodies and like you know, legal oversight groups and things like that that have said this is clearly wrong.
You know.
She openly downplayed that. She said she would quote unquote take it for whatever it's worth. Wow, you know, she downplayed that. She downplayed the fact that Amnesty International had supported him. The downplaying of any of his supporters was very noticeable.
Could you talk a little bit about the you know, he's the type of person who's not going to get get it until he's you know.
Oh yeah, yeah. So the most probably the most egregeous thing that I heard her say. And you know, in the context of the fact that he worked in Ecuador, in Latin America up against an oil company, and you know, Latin America is one of the most dangerous places in the world to do any sort of environmental work. And she says that only the proverbial two by four between the eyes will instill in him any respect for the law.
They actually allowed people to call into the sentencing hearing, and we were able to tape this part of Presco's ruling so you can hear it for yourselves.
Mister Donzicker's offenses are extremely serious. Given mister Donziger's repeated willful refusal to obey court orders, it seems that only the proverbial two by four between the eyes will instill him in him any respect for the law.
She even blamed him at one point for running up the costs associated with the prosecution because he filed too many emotions and too many requests for delays or this or that, and you know, I believe still is every defendant's right to vigorously defend themselves.
So you talked to some folks immediately after the hearing. What what did you hear from people?
Yeah, so there was a you know, everybody went downstairs. There's a press conference outside, and after that was done. I talked with Paul a little bit, who really kind of put this in perspective.
This is Paul Pozziminho with Amazon Watch. Karen caught up with him on the steps of the courthouse just after the sentencing.
All right, So Paul or outside the courthouse the hearing, and he just got on, what are you what's your gun?
Well, kind of as other people were expressing, I'm not surprised, but I'm no less disgusted by what I saw. And actually I am surprised by a couple of things. First, Judge Prescott, we all knew she was going to convict Stephen. There's a foregone conclusion. She said it in as many words when the trial started. And we also knew that she was working hand in glove with Kapla, who as Kobi mentioned was not only the aggrieved party, but he hired the prosecutor, he picked the judge, and he's still
a judge on the case. So it overturns any idea of our justice system.
Right.
But what she did was she kind of thumbed her nose at the idea that this is in any way a bad thing and said Stephen should be hit in
the head with a proverbial tu by four. I mean she literally said that after the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention claimed that what he's gone through as a human rights violation, not only should he be released, but compensated for it, and she said, quote, I take that for what it's worth, which you know, in my mind I had images of her just ripping up the paper and throwing it into the trash, because that was clearly
what she thought about. That all the defense kept going through my mind when they were when Prescoe was reciting her decision, her sentencing, that everything that they're saying Stephen did was in the context of hundreds and hundreds of other things that he was doing in the most well financed corporate attack against a lawyer that we've ever seen. Right, So he's going over the course of decades, largely on his own because Chevron intimidated, scared, or bribed away other
lawyers that would work with him. And you guys have talked about that on the podcast, so everyone knows the story. And yet so this one guy, he doesn't comply with some of the orders, and they're like, ah, and here's our chance. Let's throw him in jail. Let's turn it into it actual crime. Let's find the maximum sentence, find a judge who will say things like, let's hit him in the head with the proverbial two by four and case closed. So it's they're playing the role of villain perfectly.
It's like it was written before. They've got to go through to the m Now. My hope is that it's reached the point now that so many other people cannot turn their eye anywhere like Biden Garland. They can't pretend this doesn't exist. Too many people have brought it to them, too many respected authorities. And now that there's been a sentence, someone can step in and say, Okay, this sneeze is stop. We're gonna pardon him or commute a sentence or whatever.
But the pressure's got to be on because Biden, for example, can't I'm waiting for the day there's a White House press conference and somebody says something about the fossil fuel industry, and a reporter finally asked a question, what about this lawyer who's been locked up? And they can't say, oh, well, that was a civil issue. We don't get it because the US government is now is now putting him in jail, despite the United Nations saying they shouldn't.
Doesn't it seem like they're just pushing, push and pushing until at some point they're like doing they're.
Doing themselves in Well, I think I think there's somebody at Chevron, honestly who's thinking, what did we do with They created a monster with Caplin, because, as as Koobe pointed out in twenty seventeen, I guess it was they won. Stephen was at his lowest point. And I know personally because I've been involved forever and I was like one of the few people that was still talking to Steven. So many people, Oh he's toxic. He was found, you know,
was confirmed. There's nothing can be done. We have to back off this. This was a loss for the entire environmental movement because Chevron was able to do what they did, and they couldn't just take it. Yeah, yeah, and they couldn't just take that win and leave it alone. But by going after Kaplan and Kaplin's that this also shows you the personal animosity that Kaplan has. This is a mechanism of his wanting to destroy Stephen as much as Chevron, and so someone I think as Chevron is going this,
this is not good for us. This doesn't help now that the UN is ruling about Donziger being a human rights victim of human rights violations, that does not help Chevron in any way. And they've got to have thought,
why do we let this get out of hand? But between Gibson, Dunn, Kaplin and Presca and the other actors at play who have decided that like they're going to elevate themselves by bringing Stephen down, they've created their own monster, and you know, my hope is that that ultimately will be their undoing.
Okay, I got worried when the marshals came in.
Me too.
Why are marshals here? Two of them? Yeah, I was worried they were going to take the.
Particularly like what the criminal thing is when they show up? You know?
Yeah, Well, she I guess she exercised some restraint on not having him taken away in chains literally because she could have done that. But I think she doesn't. You know, she's so all powerful in this realm that she doesn't really need to. She can still deny him bail and stuff. Now, the real question is the appeal well, and.
The appeal of the denial of a base.
Yes, yes, specifically you know what I mean.
Will the second second let him stay out based on their bigger appeal or will you know, how will.
They fall in this?
See, I think we have an opportunity to get to those judges with the stuff that's just come out about the un and then bide admistration. If they turn to them and say, and this isn't going to be public, nothing's going to be on the record, but someone's going to pick up the phone and say, it looks really bad for us if you throw this guy in jail while he's appealing, right, just let him at least do that.
They may not say, don't put him in jail ever if he loses his appeal, But I got to think somebody is going we are now taking heat for this. You know, there was a journalist who turned to me today and said, I think it was James North from the Nation, who's written so many great pieces about this. He's like, this is the last thing that Chevron wants today. Look at all these cameras and the appeal of the bail. They do not want him to lose that because it will just make it look worse for that.
As far as next steps, I asked ron Koby before anything started, I said, you know what happens next? Is it conceivable that this is all resolved, whether Steven spent six months in jail or not. And then the next step is we are all back in Judge Kaplan's courtroom for the next round. And he said the answer is nobody knows. Nothing like this has ever happened before. And that's you know, that's really the case. No one at
this point can actually predict what will happen. Chevron still has emotion out for some sixty billion dollars that they want from Stephen. So where this ever ends is anybody's guest. And I think Steven said it after the sentencing too, he said he honestly doesn't think this will ever end.
Has he talked at all about what he's going to do, because we covered this previously, but just to remind people, they also went after his law license and successfully got him disbarred, so he no longer can practice law. He you know, they're obviously watching for him to profit in any way or even have any connection, it seems like to the Ecuadorians. Did you get a sense from him of kind of what he's going to do from here on out?
I didn't this time, but I do, you know, know that there's still efforts to collect on the Ecuadorian judgment in other places. Whether or not that can ever go through because of the things we've talked about, the international arbitration and some different things is anybody's guess. But I think that if that's a possibility, I cannot see him
giving up. I mean, he said really clearly that he's going to continue, I think, to exact quotas, but will continue fighting for the justice of the people in Ecuador and make sure that the lawyers and you know, people who do the work are protected. So he hasn't in
any way forgotten about the people in Ecuador. In fact, one thing that he consistently when I talked to him last week and then again today, kept bringing back is that what Chevron wants everyone to forget are people in Ecuador, and so you know, he constantly has that on his mind,
so he's surprised. If you work along those lines, you know, there's plenty of things you can do as an individual who is not a lawyer, to you know, further human rights, to end pollution, and you know, to stop climate change, and to do all the things along that kind of work.
Drilled is a critical Frequency production. The show is produced and reported by me Amy Westerveldt. My co reporter for this season is Karen Savage. Our editor is Julia Ritchie. Original score composed by b Beeman. Our artwork this season was created by Matthew Fleming. Our first Amendment attorney is James Wheaton. You can see photos related to this story, as well as several companion pieces on our website at drillednews dot com. Researching and reporting stories like this requires
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