Messy Conversations: Magatte Wade on Africa, Climate, and Free Speech

to criminalize certain types of environmental protest. I had actually reached out to Atlas wanting to interview someone about the network, and specifically wanting to talk to a woman named Maggott Wade, who runs their Center for African Prosperity. I didn't hear anything back, and to be honest, I kind of assumed that they just didn't want to talk to me because Atlas sort of had that reputation. So that was me

maybe being a little bit lazy. Anyway, after that story came out, Wade was pretty upset about it, and she took to Twitter and challenged me our reporter Jeff Dambicki, a New Republic editor, Molly Taft, to a debate. I let her know that actually I had really wanted to talk to her for the story and had tried, so I would love to schedule a time to talk and talk we did. It was definitely a little debatey sometimes, but also an interesting window into how certain ideas about

the climate movement are being shaped. We're going to get back to our anti protest series soon, but in the meantime, I'm going to be bringing you some bonus episodes featuring what I've been calling messy conversations, sometimes with people I don't necessarily agree with, sometimes with people I very much do. First up, mcgott Wade, who heads up the Center for African Prosperity for the ATLAS Network. This week she's at a convening for a new group that brings together quite

a few different ATLAS member think tank folks. It's called

the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. It's spearheaded by Jordan Peterson, backed by several of the entities that funded the push for Brexit, and includes not only folks like Magott and Arthur Brooks, the former president of the American Enterprise Institute, and the folks leading the State Financial Officers Foundation, a group that's funded by a whole batch of Atlas network think tanks like the Heartland Institute, the Heritage Foundation, and more,

but also a whole cast of folks from the climate skeptic slash climate denial crowd. You've got GOP candidate Vivic Ramaswami, who's been sort of the king of the anti ESG or quote unquote woke capital conversations. You've got Michael Schellenberger, author of Apocalypse Never. You've got Pure Lombourg, who pushes a similar kind of approach to the Schollenberger, this idea that sure climate change is happening, but it's not happening

fast enough to warrant extreme changes. You've got Alex Epstein, the guy who authored the quote unquote Moral Case for fossil fuels. This group, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship or ARC, was put on my radar by a tip a few months ago. I shared that with Dismog, who's written some really great and helpful profiles of both the organization and some of the members in it, which I'll link to in the show notes.

end of Western civilization as we know it. They're all meeting together this week in London. So I thought it would be a good time to bring you this conversation. I hope you enjoy it, and please get in touch with all the things you would have said in this conversation. Knowing exactly what to say in the moment is not always my strong suit, which you'll see here, because I definitely took the liberty of cutting in to say some things I wish I had thought of at the time. Anyhow,

all feedback and complaints welcome. It might even turn into another messy conversation.

the New Republic and see I'm really here. The title it was called me to the Shadowy Global Network villain fying climate protesters, And so the whole thing was pretty much what I pulled a head piece and on me. You give me a paragraph on there, and I'm gonna

ready for people. And it says Magat Wade, who heads an internal Atlas project called the Center for African Prosperity, frequently cites the Soto as an inspiration for her take on Africa and climate change in multiple up ads over the past few years, and in an interview of this year with Canadian professor and the right wing figure had

Jordan Petersen. Wade, who was born in Senegal but moved to Germany when she was seven, describes climate activists as a new colonialist, arguing that climate action will keep Africans poor and deprive them of access to energy. Wad often depicts those who would deny the continent its current fossil fo goom as out of touch, and regularly claims that climate action will kill a billion Africans, all while refusing to engage with the fact that African climate activists are

being arrested at an alarming rate. So that's the piece that was written about me.

not you know, any particular think tanks work. But in saying that also worth noting, actually the original piece is more like six thousand words and includes a lot more on your work and trying to look at different economic studies and things like that, which is on our site at drill Don Media, but New Republic trimmed out quite a bit of the story, so I'm happy to send you a link to that as well. And yeah, I have actually a bunch of questions that I would love

to ask you about your work. And I submitted a contact request through the Atlas network a couple of times and didn't get anything back. But I was looking through my in box this morning, and you speak typically to me, to you and also to check various things with the sort of Atleas network at quarters as well. But I just saw in my inbox this morning that I got bounced replies to that.

movement to do that. So I actually think you might be surprised at how much I agree with someone you say.

of my views. And when you're talking about religiships between climate change and Africa and all of that at the links, I really wish that this particle had gotten into it. Yeah, because I'm going to tell you where I'm coming from. So when I go back and I read this piece, mcgat way, your head in an international Atlas project, so

that's fine. Frequently cites the Soto as an inspiration. The inspiration I cite is always, for the most part, George A. Ganaghan economist, who really has put his finger as to why thereas in Africa, despite its riches and the riches of Africa, are its people, are it's land despite all of that being rich in all of that, we still to be stayed, remain sadly in such a wrong way,

still the most poor continent in this world. And I'm supposed to be bad as an African, and I'm not so when you say that I frequently cites you or the other three people, because by the way, I manad you for your courage to come here and speak with me, because I would have liked to have a courtesy from the other three people who have been involved in this piece.

But anyway, so whoever here did there investigation and says that I frequently cited Dsto I would like so big to put in my face when I cite this, usually Georgia or who is who I cite, and a few times I cite the Soto, whom I also have a

lot of respect for. Has to do for I have to do with his work related to the maining cause as to why my continent is poor because what Hernando de Soto did for those who don't know her none of the Soto is a Parisian economist and what he has done, him too, like me, has been wondering why are people poor? Because his negative pole is a poorer nation as well, and he said I'm going ready to find out what's going on and him a long. People

like Hyak because I saw you citing Hyak. You see these things is setting a lot of great people, but really not even understanding why the rest of the world respects these people. I don't respect Hyak because supposedly he claims that all the ills of society are caused by socialism. As you put in the piece, I really don't like socialism the philosophy of what socialism and not what the

young people today think what socialism is. And that might be a different conversation for a different time, like when you are Hied. The reason why people like me really appreciate Hyad is because of how Hyat really is one of the few and I would say probably one of the first economists whoever started looking in the direction of the entrepreneurs as the solution and as the main creators

of prosperity. All the other economists are out there doing some math, model calculations, all types of things that are completely removed from the rest of the world. And multiport very important to tail. The reason why some of us are really someone like me enjoys Hyak, and I think he has contributed a lot to the field of economics is because of the precise insight but he had about the entrepreneur. And so going back to the Soto, Hyak has seen that the entrepreneurs have a role to play

in fighting poverty, not NGOs, and that's another thing. So, yeah, you know what the solo did is it an experiment. He established himself in a little bit of an artskirts of leading a proof and he tried to start a little business, a little business where they were sewing feelings like really moment pop. He was thinking when happened to people like my gad, But because I have a small medium sized enterprise in Africa, how does it work for us when we're trying to build a business. What's going on?

What's happening to us? And so he positioned himself as a noble body. And then he went through the process to legally register the business. He found that it took forever, we're talking here, almost a two thirds of the year. The amount of money it cost in fees, it was pretty much close to somebody's salary. So he's found that it was impossible for people like that to start a business. Impossible. And so he went on to write this book called

The Mystery of Capital and explaining all of that. And so the times when you would hear someone like me sighting the Sodo, it has to do with that, not what you're saying here and what your piece is saying about the Soto. It was trying to make the Sodo look very bad here, I'm going to find him. Where is the Sodo when you're saying, but de Sodo basically went and he told the people in the Amazon forest.

argued for, which is not inaccurate. It is true that what he has argued for is for property rights and a profit share for Indigenous.

whole site that's called that. I think it's the Avatar miss theory or something along those lines, and it very explicitly says, you know, for people that are concerned about the impact that indigenous protest is having on business and development. We believe that this is the solve for that and kind of lays out how.

you on here. So the website, So I will ask people to go out and read this piece and then you let me know your opinion. But this whole idea of a DeSoto is an anti climate person, I think that's totally misguided. But I digress.

podcast episode about Atlas. It's because he really seems to be the person who began advocating pretty early on for a strategy that would later be called redwashing, and it's a strategy that we see other ATLAS think tanks, particularly the American Enterprise Institute in the US and the McDonald Laurier Institute in Canada, starting to deploy over the years, often using the same rhetoric and arguments as de Soto. Here's a snippet from our episode on Atlas, just to

jog your memory. One of the very first think tanks created by this newly formed Atlas Network was the Institute for Liberty and Democracy in Peru. It was started the same year the Atlas Network started, in nineteen eighty one, and its founder was a well known economist. De DeSoto came up with a theory that wound up reverberating throughout the Atlas Network universe.

in the week of Indigenous led protests. There, go back and listen to the rest of that episode if you haven't heard it yet. We're going to take a quick freak here and get back to my conversation with the Godwave and stay with us.

Prosperity is built by entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs need what we call the tool kit on the endrepreneurs in there, primarily the way you sum up everything that they need. This concept of floor of law, clear and transferable property right, all of them is very important for the entrepreneur to be able to enterprise economies is also call it economic freedom.

You have the best way to call it is just is an individual, especially if you're a nobody individual somewhere, can you or not start and run a business easily? And when it comes to that, you have multiple you know, economic indexes that measure that very simple, you know situations. And one of them was Doing Business of the Doing Business Index of the World Bank. And then you have another one of the Economic Freedom Index of Friger Institute.

Another guy that you guys make out to sound like these conspirationists out there, you know, trying to describe the world with the right way ideas. So there again these people that you demonize, this this seems to demonize people like me, actually happen to love. I love the Friger Institute insofar as they focus on economic freedom and really pointing there too, because when it comes to economic freedom, how easy or hard it is for anyone anywhere in

the world to start and run a business. It turns out, but the index is showing exactly when I, as a business entrepreneur doing business both in Africa and in the US, I have seen At first, I thought it was just an anecdote. At first, I thought, oh, you know, it is normal. We're poor, so it's hard to do business back home, and here they're rich, it's needy to do business.

And instead I came to realize we are poor nations of poor because they make it hard for the wealth creatives to create, and rich nations are prospers because they make it easy for wealth creatives to create. So the minute I understood that, my whole life changed, so many things started to make sense and I started just to follow that path. And so when you look there, you realize that it is harder for almost anyone in suburban Africa to do business than this for anyone in Scandainaia.

And that fact is very important because if we want to fix the problem, and I would want so, this is actually is a question I'm going to have for you. If you're serious about building prosperity in Africa, then we have to be serious about this issue around the lack of economic freedom. So Frasier Institute measures things like that for doing business, measures things like that. Atlas Network has been working with people to kind of improve this situation.

So we need economic freedom to build prosperity. Our entrepreneurs need that. And you know what else, entrepreneurs need access to reliable and affordable energy source. This is actually when

I got into the fight. This is what and when I got into the fight, into the climate action fight, because when you have these anti fosteril fuel Zalites who are sitting halfware across the world in very comfortable places, telling me an African what is it but I get to do or not do in my continent when we happen to still be the poorest region in the world and people are still dying. I said, I have a problem.

So Amy, do you believe that? Do you support prosperity for actors even it means this is a very I do so.

fossil fuels. Right, to be honest, I think that the solution is that the global Norse transitions quickly off of fossil fuels while the Global South continues to develop. When I hear people say we just energy poverty first, I'm like, well, yeah, I agree. I think we should solve energy poverty. I don't think it's an either or. I think they can

happen at the same time. And I think that rich countries in the Global North have a much bigger obligation to do what they can to reduce emissions and decarbonize as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, that's not happening, and neither are the Global North companies that are developing oil and gas resources in Africa doing anything at all about energy poverty. So that's the piece where I'm like, Okay, yes, I agree.

But the oil and gas that's being developed in Africa right now, more than half of it is exported to Europe and Asia. The African countries that have those resources have terrible contracts that lock them into not getting anywhere near what they should be getting for those resources. None of those contracts require distribution locally. So like the example, this is Nigeria, that's the oldest and largest fossil fuel industry on the continent of Africa, right last in the

world on energy access. So when I see people say, oh, fossil fuel development equals a solved to energy poverty, where's the proof of that. It hasn't happened on the continent of Africa. It hasn't even happened in the United States,

which is like the birthplace of the industry. So that's where I'm like, Okay, if we're going to talk about energy poverty, let's talk about actually solving it, and also the fact that doing so and solving for climate which will also impact people in Africa and Latin America first and worst. Why can't we do both together in a way that actually like solves both problems.

It just doesn't. This piece would have been so much more interesting, Amy, if first of all, had put in a lot of these caveats that you're sharing with me right now, it would have made for such a much more interesting piece and piece. But what you said about America and needing to do this, need to do that, I will leave it to Americans to talk about these things.

When I wear my American hat, I can also talk about But today the reason why I'm talking to you is the African magat because my roots and I'm African first and foremost. So when you go back and said, well, you know, if the oil industry and if also huels were so important to Africa, would have known by now because clearly, but Africa is not where it should be right now, so it tells me that we don't necessarily you know, that's not what I said.

So I would say, okay, make them do that. Then, like there's enough resources on the continent to address this issue, and you know, you know, I feel like there's a huge amount of work that needs to be done to look at how fossil fuel contracts are made, how developing financing works, all of that stuff, how the whole investor state disputed system is set up that robs countries of

their sovereignty, all of that stuff. So like, in order for this entrepreneurship to work that you're talking about and for businesses to succeed, you also can't have a giant industry kind of corrupting that process.

when I thought we were poor. We were it's hard to do business in Africa because we're poor, and I discovered it was giveaway around. I will tell you here today the same exactly that I say to some of my friends who might be saying the same thing you said. So the reason why we're being literally this exploited. And it's not just oiler, it's not just oil. I have a bigger problem with the Angels, the eight industry. As

we know. The reason why it's so easy for everybody to come to our nations and vi the kings and queens on our own land. Is because we are poor. And I will say it again, why are we poor? I am not poor because the oil and gas company people are taking my fossil fuels away. It's not a good thing. That's definitely not a good thing. And we

intend to do better. But the only time we're going to be able to do better with them not benefiting more from us is going to be when our people are not so longer poor, where we don't have time to really look at what our leaders are doing, and even when we see there's nothing we can do. In my country, some reports came up, but there was some corruption that happened there, basically a coil but food on the cheap, and most of our people didn't even have

time to complain about it. After a few months, little noise, everybody went back to trying and find food, because when the majority of people are poor, most people don't have time to go and see look at what the president is doing and what the type of nasty deals are doing. We don't have a strong society, We don't have organizations that are looking into all of this, bringing them to the forefront and all of that. Gri staff as you

may not know. So my point is this is not us going and trying to force these people do this and to do that. At the end of the day, as long as we remain poor, we will be the carpet on which everyone else and the mothers walks on. And it is just the way it is. And so for me, my plan is not tell the oil company to one or company of that company do this, do that. As long as the situation is the way it is,

we will remain where we are now. If we manage to free our entrepreneurs build the type of prosperity, and they will also have access to the type of oil because if our entrepreneurs are enterprising and they have the money to pay for the fossil fuels to be handled diregged on the ground, this is the force that's going to make world companies to say, you know, to be like, oh, maybe we should leave more in here, because guess what, at that point, it's not about somebody telling them you

want to do the right thing, You need to give what's worth you know there For us it feels worth in money. No, what happens is, oh, g there's a bucket here, there is a market here. These people can pay for it, these companies can pay for it. But my point is, you see that if the force I kill myself trying to tell people economic freedom is what we need in order to unleash all the other dominoes.

But instead every is busy. I seeing almost operating in a worldview in which US Africans are going to remain poor for the rest of our lives. When you poor, you have no voice. When you poor, you're not a market. When you're not a market, nobody cares to you. But I go back to my piece being that when I see a piece like this and you're here, this piece is all about defending last generation. It's all about defending rights of these climate activists people to ba basically do

whatever it is that we're doing. That's what this piece Wallows was all about. I would have loved So when I see a piece like this defending the rights of rich kids, excuse me people calling them this way, because seriously, when I look around, that's what I see. Rich kids who are looking for a way, for an existent show, for a way maybe to exist in this world. And I tell them, if you want to exist in this world, if you want to feel like you're doing something really useful.

Why don't you come with me on the battle of making sure that Africans have access to economic freedom as well as that we do not stop pipelines that are being built, by the way, trying to be built in places like Tanzania, in places like Ugandas. Why is it that you are right now protesting those type of developments? So you are not here?

as long as we're related to Atlas network. But I see, and I see and all of that in defense of rich kids deciding to glue themselves to the asphalt or to some paintings, and then crying out loud, why is it that they're being arrested broad I live in If you're messing up with somebody's property, that's the problem.

talked about it a lot in our episode. It's a big part of the strategy to demonize and minimize what climate at activists are fighting for, which is not at all to say that activists don't sometimes get it wrong. We've talked about that before in our last episode, in fact, we got into the details about why applying class and race filters are so extremely critical to successful activism. But it's just not true that all climate activists are rich

white kids. The activists fighting the pipeline Magot mentioned in Tanzania and Uganda, for example. Those are mostly young people who are from those countries. In fact, we've got an episode on that fight coming soon where you'll hear from some of those folks. There are definitely activists in other countries who are supporting them. Usually those folks are protesting the banks in their countries that are financing the pipeline. But the resistance is home grown, which brings me to

another thing I think is important to note here. Africans are not a monolith. In the global South are not a monolith. There are people who are for and against fossil fuels in every country. Longtime listeners of this show might remember Guyanese attorney Melinda Jinki's absolute disdain for the idea that global North countries should transition away from fossil fuels quickly while the Global South continues to use fossil fuels for a while longer.

capital requirement. So let me speak about finance. For a second, if you look at private finance today, the cost of capitals are exactly inversely related to the average income of countries. That is, the poorest countries in Sub Saharan Africa have the highest costs of capital seen by a private finance because they see high risk in investing in these economies. But this is a problem also of how risk is assessed and measured. So for example, you know, we think

about credit risk. People need to have debt to get new debt, and that's circular and maybe inappropriate for people who never been part of the former economy, but they may yet have a record, a perfect record of paying bills to the extent they receive existing services. So the existing market for finance on its own is going to be even more challenge because of the fact that the

poorest countries have the highest demanding cost of capital. So there's going to have to be some kind of government intervention to underwrite private finance if at all, or some sort of broadest scheme for government cooperation. And so that's with regards to the transformation. Now are developing countries thinking

only short term, not thinking long term. For the most part, we have to understand that poor countries have development priorities that are long standing, and over the last few decades, generally countries started out by saying that the climate is a northern problem. It's a problem created by the West

and has to be dealt with by them. But over time, for various reasons, it's been understood that all countries have to be part of the energy transition, and also that there are several opportunities for efficiently growing in ways that will be beneficial to even low income countries, for example by reducing air pollution and other health benefits of transitioning to clean energy. So there has been a push towards trying to integrate and mainstream climate conditions and climate priorities

into development priorities. But it's really important to understand that we have to embed climate considerations within the existing set of priorities developing countries have, rather than to think about it as let's see how we can introduce climate policy

and think about other benefits for development. So that mainstreaming of climate into development policy, I think is happening increasingly, and so yes, poor countries are mostly thinking about near term priorities, but there has been significant progress and at least formally thinking about climate partically including them in plans for the future, but very often conditional on support from the international community.

because I have to today. Here here you go on this thing. This is you see, this is a word said that I go to and I'll share with you here. I'll show it you. You see this photo. You see a boat, right boat with people in it, yeah, the news of today. Every day, Amy, I have these news every day, and he said, let police antercept trant me. The police intercepted a boat with thirty migrants in it, and they arrested five of the people who were helping

them Russ Today it was only three. But every single day, Amy, I get these news, and you know that these people will not make it so when I see suffering, When I see this suffering of people who are so poor in their nations. The jobs don't exist because the business, because we end entrepreneurs cannot create businesses, and it becomes so dire. But these kids, for so many of them, behlf my age, and they're saying, you know what, we

are leaving, we have to go make a living. And you tell them, you know how many nights I spend some time on the phone trying to talk to a woman who is about to take off with her baby on these boats. I spend all night trying to talk her out of it, because I know she ha's more chances of dying than not. Yeah, and then I see a piece like this, but where what is the part of the promoting is part of a problem for me?

They're not solving my problem. I'm making it worse. And then I see a piece like this where you give them four thousand words, four thousand words, and there's none for me, none. I don't exist. And that made me so sad. First I was met.

are rich white people. What we're talking about protecting is the basic right to protest, not some spoiled brat's right to do whatever they want.

black lives. And by the way, with ninety percent of a representatives of black race, maybe our ass doesn't matter. And that's what I was trying to explain to Jordan Peterson. And it is like this four thousand words given to defend this guy white cheere with promoting stop what's gonna kill my people or stand in our way? I just don't know anymore. When I said, I don't know, I don't know. I'm so glad you're shop because maybe I can hear from you. I yeah, and that Afrika matter.

pretty pretty small. It's like institute one hundred kilometer an our speed limit on the Autobahn and give everyone access to free public transit. So they're not advocating for anything that would negatively impact people in Africa. One of the things that we were looking at was not the protection of climate protests necessarily, but really the crackdown on free speech in general. So which is something that like from like I have read and seen most at list network

thing tanks are very supportive of free speech. So it's surprising to see, you know, intense amount of support for some kinds of free speech, but this sort of extreme approach, and not from you by the way I should. I feel like that should be made clear here. I have not ever seen you vilify climate protesters in any way. You have a difference of opinion with some of them, but I don't think that you have said or done anything that would contribute to what's happening right now, which

is the criminalization of protests. So really it's the criminalization of protest piece which will affect all people everywhere. That is a big problem for me, just as someone who thinks that you know, hey, if you believe in free speech, that has to include speech you don't like to, you know.

reliable energy. And to your point before about Germany going back to coal, yeah, I think it's ridiculous to push the idea of everyone transitioning to renewables before that's technologically feasible, which it is not at the moment technologically feasible to have the sort of scale of renewables that you would need to power all of Africa. And also, by the way, if that technology was available, it's going the usual route of heading to Europe first and then the rest of

the world. So like, ignoring that fact and that history is disingenuous and not helpful. That said, I also think if we're going to say, okay, look we need more entrepreneurship in Africa, we need support for entrepreneurs and business and a part of that support is access to cheap, free energy. Totally agree. I think that should be you know, energy source agnostic. So like, if there's a situation where nuclear or hydro or renewables is the cheaper, more available option,

then that should be allowed to happen. Right now, what's happening is kind of the reverse where there's a real push and again I'm gonna mention the fossil fuel industry because they're not just like any old mom and pops set up. You know, they've got quite a lot of power all over the world. There is quite a big push right now to lock in these contracts that require countries to be on fossil fuels for thirty plus years. So that to me is again actually like really not a free market approach.

And because for you, when you're seeing these activists, you know, doing what they're doing, you're saying, yeah, they're voicing their disagreement with whatever it is that the voice of a disagreement, they're voicing themself, they're the act. They're doing free speech, so you're saying they're doing free speech. And where people like the folks, multiple folks in the ADLAS network, you know network, would say is we are we have never

been against people, you know, doing free speech. As a matter of fact, free speech is definitely one of the pillars of one of the pillars that we defend. In this case. I think the discrepancy in understanding is in you're seeing free speech being squelched, and they would say to you, we hear them complaining about something, but we

also are property right type of people. You don't get to go and throw tomato soup at a painting, which is a property somewhere that's not okay, And it's not because maybe at some time it was okay, maybe for culture or whatever. Us we have always been the people who say we art plass of what culture thinks is acceptable. Property rights means property rights. So being complain all you want, walk in the streets with big signs everywhere you want, stream as loud as you want, do whatever you want,

but do not touch or deface or destroy property. So that's the and this is in line, very clear line of our principles. Property rights is important. And anyone who is serious about entrepreneurship also will tell you that property rights is important. When I told you earlier that part of the entrepreneurs tool kid is clear and transferable property rights. So the concept of property rights is key to us.

And you can have spree speech. So if all of these people we're doing what they're doing without touching somebody's property, you would never hear us have an issue with that. But the moment we accept doing something to somebody's property because we don't like what they stand for or we don't like what they do, and you can imagine the can of worms that gets open, And I think many people don't think about that really about the can of worm.

We're allowing if you have a right to mess with somebody's property, whoever public are private, just because you don't happen to like, you know, what this place or the people behind it stand for, then it's open door. It's open door, and you're not going to be able to close these things. So for us, and I think if you had talked to the organization, probably you guys would have talked and you would have understood that we are still very much, very much it's one of our pillars

defenders of free speech. And I think we have friend of briefs even when it moves not the cool thing to do, but we separate free speech from property. So please go ahead and complain on you want, go ahead and protect one you want, but please, property rights exist and we need to defend it at all costs. It's

not because you don't like what any stands for. But you have a right to go and tag Amy's home, or you have a right to throw something at Amy's window, or you know, throw tomato soup at her child stroller or something like that. If we start to accept that, because supposedly what they're defending seems to be what I agree with and I think it's the right moral thing to do. Then who then gets to decide what's more what's not moral?

But it's technically not okay. So but we're staying there and we're basically the visual on saying, be careful, you guys. If we're going to accept this in the name of all the ideas we defend, is something we agree with, then watch out for when they come, when people come to defend things that you don't really agree with. So anyway, so we're to kind of keep an eye on things like that and remind everybody, I don't care if you like what you're doing or not like what you're doing.

The morning is be careful of what people are doing. Because tomorrow it could be against you. And I'm very proud that people like Atlas and the people in our network are out there watching and not being dragged into these political battles or into these cultural battles that actually fluctuate and go all over the place. So we have princip possible stands no matter what. So that's what they

would probably say to you. And I'm sure that given what I've heard you, Amy, and how the conversation we're able to have really, you know, I haven't feeling that you guys, but we understand each other. And when you talk about you know, these world companies, the deals that they're making, it's not free market. Look, that's another thing.

If you know anything about Atlas, you will learn that one of our big enemies is what we call chrony cats, chrony business and so, but chronism is happens when really, when you have monopolies or you many almost everyone else has been kept out or the people that you're negotiating with really don't have the same you know, what do you call in the same weight, and then you can just get to them whatever you want. That's so some of it is due to chrony capitalism and again, it

is part of our principles. We are anti chrony. We will fight monopolies anytime receive them. We don't agree with things like that. Now I go back to see you know, someone like me Amy, I used to be this wy too. It used to be like if only we forced people that they have to do the contract this way or do it that way, otherwise they can't be there. You know what would happen if a business does not see if something does not work for a business somewhere, it's

simply just not going to do it. And it's not because we're going to force an oil company or a company or anybody. We do have a right being if the situation allows them to get it with a bit as much as they might get a win with. You know, people are greedy, and this is not when I say this not a problem of capitalism, because people are gonna be like, yes, the capitalism is the greedy system. No, humans are greedy. We and as with everything, you will

have people who are honest, people who are dishonest. You're gonna have people who are fair, people who are fair, people who are just like I'm gonna take as much as I can and I don't care what people say. If I can do it, I'll do it. And others are gonna be like even if no one is watching, I don't want to take more than what I have and I believe in fairness no matter what. And with business people, you have the same thing going on, same thing.

So here my my argument goes back until unless African nations are no longer poor mm hmm, it will have this type of deals. Because you know, I'm like you two. I will say, deals happening right there, and there's absolutely nothing I can do with it. So am I gonna go and start picketing and saying, yeah, force field old companies to do a vison to do that. That's not where I'm gonna spend my time. That's not gonna change anything.

But what I think is gonna change something is if we and it is our entrepreneurs and then the prosperity. With that prosperity, people are gonna start to notice us, respect us, and we're gonna how We're going to start to have a say in how our stuff is sold, sold whom it's sold to, all of us stuff that's going to start to happen. So for me, I made a calculation a long time ago, and that's where I felt.

So when you said, oh, atleasts is being hypocritical, or of a network is being hypocritical because they're supporting and you know companies that are doing everything but the free market. Every time you say something like that to yourself about Atlas, go in and again, because you'll find exactly that we have not renounced our principles. Free markets is key to us. And again, like I said, we stand for free markets when it is popular, and we stand with from markets

when it is not popular. And another thing about us at last network and the reason why I'm involved with plan any I think that you would say it's a good thing to work on putting women property rights in the Constitution of Rundi when it was not before, meaning women did not have a right to property or to even property that was in their family before our partners addless partner. When you said almost six hundred partners, one of those six partners, that's what they have been working

on and they managed to get that to happen. I would say it's a good thing. Right another thing one of us, all six hundred address partners, but usually it's more than one it's multiple people working in different things. Where in South Sudan. Yet the right to property rights, the access to property rights, you know, right with the property rights of women is in the constitution, yet it

was not being upheld in real life. What our partners came to us for, what the fun thing went to them for, was to actually work with all the stakeholders in this part of South Sudan. We're talking about the judges, we're talking about the police people, we're talking about the husbands, we're talking about all the stakeholders, women themselves, telling them, ladies, these are your rights. So all of a sudden, now you have this right. But was in the law, but

the culture did not follow the law. It was not one part the culture law. And so here theture it both of them matched, and now women know their rights and they also are having their rights upheld in the court of law and also in their communities. That's a good thing. That's where we spend the money. Also in what do you call it in Sri Lanka. Our partners there, what they have been working on is some of the

many things that they work on. One of them had to deal with access to a personal hygiene product for women we're talking about and things like that. As it turned out, there was an outrageously high tax put on those products, so much at the final cost was almost out of reach for the everyday Sri Lankan moment. And so they've worked on those reforms to take down those you know, those taxes, so that the end product would

become affordable for everybody. So here, my angie or friends would say, we don't have tamponds, let's ship them three tampons, And someone like me, we're saying, we don't want to have to rely on your free stuff for the rest of our lives. So what are we going to do? What's a sustainable way here? Yeah, the sustainable way is find out what the problem is and something about it. And that's what our partners did. This is Atlas. This

is the organization and the members and the partners. I love so much everybody, but I have talked to there. I haven't talked to all the six partners but very but I know there, and I've been working with such amazing decent people who truly put themselves in the line in the most honorable way. And putting themselves in the line for these people is not about going and destroying somebody's property or throwing tomato at some painting and stuff

like that. They're not doing that. They're doing the real hard work. So I see a piece like BS, I'm like, could you guys talk to us? And Amy. I will end this by saying, please, if you would want to come and be my guest. We have our annual gala every November. It is happening in mid November. It's New York City, and you will get to see these people, talk to them. You will hear because that year, during

that time, we'll celebrate our best freedom fighters. We are supporting the people who are fighting for the freedom, for their freedoms, for the freedom to speak, for the freedom to build the business.

things being done as well. And on the systemic change thing, I mean, I would love to see something like the Atlas network getting involved in looking at you know, the way that bilateral trade agreements, for example, lock countries into bad contracts. That's like a big systemic thing.

rights and environmental legislation. I couldn't find any examples of Atlas folks working on this issue, so I asked Magott to send me stuff or recommend someone that's working on it. I haven't heard back yet, but she's super busy, so I'm still hoping to hear very much, hoping that it's true that they are working to reform this.

on this and also even on the climate. You know, right now we have this coalition of people who are trying to think about, you know, some of the best ways to address you know, because yeah, people are going to say, look, is it always a better idea to be a plumate friendly? Absolutely, And I think you will say people like that among us who say that it's if we can do better, let's do better, which we always have a responsibility to do better. So is there

a better way for the environment? Is there better ways for human rights? Is a better way for this?

that you know. You also could agree with me that if you went went back and rewrite this piece, Amy, you can't with a straight face tell me that this was not a hit piece, meaning that this was not about you, not just focusing on or saying it's not even focusing. If it was stuff I was reading in here me who is inside the organization, I could see that I would be just like you two. I would say, Amy, look,

not everybody's perfect. Yeah, we trade us blah blah blah. Listen, I would have trust, I would have and the day I see something tooth. But the point is this piece right here, I think is not representative off the reality. I think it was written in a very one sided way. But based on the conversation we had, it seems to me like you would be the type of person who says, you know what, my god, I heard it, and fine, but I've heard you so yeah, and by the way,

I agree with you totally. I sooner appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.

people to know who's behind those things. And like I said, across the political spectrum, I don't have any love for the lefty NGOs either. The appreciate bad I appreciate that. I appreciate it.

get tired of being attacked. So maybe if we had more of the commitment to focus on the type of work that's being done, you know, or who gave what, maybe donors would be a little bit more you know, feeling free to put something out there. And also some people just even without even being worried about, you know, being attacked or whatever. Some people are just discreet. So but I think some people are decreed. But I think many people who are not putting their names out there.

It might have to do with this polarization where you do if you don't. I sense in you somebody who wants to see a better world, and I want to see a better world. I think if we can agree on that and work from there, it might mean something different. So I would love to keep these conversations going. And if you want to talk to anybody on our side and find out all of that, please let me know.

US is leaving out people of color. Come back for that conversation, Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.