This One’s Cursed • EP116

to the chase. Need wine. Yeah, listen, we're all opening bottles of wine because it's two. We are drinking to bear. This was episode sixteen. It was called first Cut is the Deepest, and it's a deep, nasty cut. I'm embarrassed that this is the episode. We had Cheryl Crow come on like she had read this script. We were so excited when we saw the title for this episode because we're like, yeah, it's the sheet throw up episode. It

aired March second of two thousand four. The synopsis is that Nathan must choose which parent to live with after Dan and Deb's divorce, and Lucas meets a newcomer who has deeper ties to Tree Hill than expected. Um, this is going to be a long pore friends, hold on, Yeah, concidentally we are drinking our fit vine wine. Thanks guys.

So this Yeah, this was an embarrassing episode. Um. And we got a lot of information that we've been looking for, but boy did we have to We got one We got one piece of information we've been looking for, and we got a lot of repeat exposition. This was like an entire episode that could have been condensed into two scenes. I feel like there was nothing new. We didn't learn

anything new. It was dripping with misogyny while we were watching the episode, and um, we we introduced this new character played by Emmanuel who we all love, but it was just seemed kind of so random. And then of course we learned at the end, um that she's Jenny's mom. But that piece of information plus the dead piece we're really the only things that we got out of this episode is so strange to me. Oh and the Dan at the Dan and Keith contract thing. Yeah, it was

so just like blip. We'll we'll get into all of it. Um. I I have trouble with this episode so much, and we're going to get into it. I think it's important to remember it was two thousand four at this point, and the rules for what boys did on TV was very, very different back then. So so for all the people out there that are like, now you're making fun of Lucas,

first of all, he's terrible in this episode. But second of all, we are looking at this through a lens of and we are grown up ladies and we are allowed to just wag our finger at this. It is gross, So let's let's get into it. This felt to me like the height and this was, as you said, Hillary, this is the height of trying to compete with Gossip Girl and the OC when they were on the air. Yeah, this salacious um there was. It seemed like maybe not a lot of effort put into the dialogue um, which

is frustrating. You can tell in the first scene when we're all in the quad and I think none of us are really I'm not committing to my dialogue. I'm like, I'm going to say these words because if I don't say them, then we've got to do it again. But yeah, they're so clunky and weird, and it's like, yeah, it's just some strange scripting. I mean, listen, everybody for you guys who are listening along, and you're like, oh, I don't want this to be a downer. I don't want

to just listen to you guys complain. I get it. I don't want to complain either. So we're going to find our nuggets in here. We're gonna find our golden nuggets and the things that we love are we gonna

go mining. Let's go, let's go mining. But you know it isn't It is important to acknowledge when something was not up to snuff, like not up to standard, and and it makes us appreciate the moments that were great on our show so much more when we can compare it to UM moments, Like it's really true and I think there's really something to that. Like, you know, we we watched the episode and then we always take a snack break. In tonight's case, it was let's all grab

a glass of wine, break an hurry. I was enjoy before you came back. I was telling Hill that I the episode was so terrible that I just stressed ate my whole we watched it was like, um, but it's actually really funny because I ran in the other room and Grant was like, how was it. I was like,

it's the worst episode we've done so far. If there are any fans out there, they think that episode sixteen is their favor head episode, like they tell us, because I don't know why, I've never heard anyone say that they loved this episode. Um, I would like to talk about deb the best performance of the episode. She was great. Yeah.

I was really bothered that this was her big secret, that she that she fell in love with another man while she was married to someone who is abusive, narcissistic, um, just torturing her mentally, emotionally, constantly using her son against her.

You know, we've seen Dan's behavior and the fact that as a human being, she would get um, she would have have a need to be loved and adored and all the things that she deserves as a grown woman, and that she would fall into that with someone else naturally. I mean, I'm not excited that anyone's marriage is falling apart ever, or an affair or anything, but the fact that that that was the idea of her big scary,

dark secret. It when he's just so awful to her, I don't know, helped me talked me through this, and then they wrote it in a way where it was the thing she could never reveal because she would be the bad one, not the abusive husband who's financially controlling, who by the way, has almost, if not definitely, cheated on her before. Like the idea that it would make

her unlovable, she'd be shunned. Even even the way that the writers wrote Nathan's dialogue after the reveal, Nathan's response say, you are the reason Dad is like this with me. You caused him to torture when we saw Dan's whole family, we saw we saw the episode with Royal, we know where he comes from, we get it. And the fact that, oh heaven forbid a woman cheated she excommunicator. Listen, y'all heard me in the last episode. I don't care. I don't I'm cheering on a deb Scott affair because one

it's her taking her future into her own hands. Um. What really bothered me is how Barbara played this really well, because she walked into the room with Nathan and was terrorized by the idea of having to admit this. And so what that informs us is when Dan found out that she was leaving him for someone else, he threatened

her so severely that she panicked and came back. You know, like this was done in two thousand three, in a time when you could divorce your husband and still have custody of your child, whether that's shared custody or soul custody whatever, um. But whatever he said to her when she announced I love someone else was enough for her to be so scared she came back. And she said it, she said, when I realized I could lose you, I

can't back. Why would she lose him? Like that doesn't make any sense, but you know, in whatever way, Dan would do what Dan does and threaten her and say she was an unfit mother and tell lies about her like we've seen him do it already. That's why living with him, she wasn't willing to lose Nathan. And and then for Nathan to say, for them to have written, let's clarify, this is the writing, for them to have written that Nathan's reaction is all of this is your fault. Oh,

I didn't like it. It really to me. I was like the reek of misogyny. Gross's gross. Hey, if this is a triggering storyline for anybody that's listening, if you're in a bad spot there are resources, and the mythology that like you'll lose your kids and that your life is over and you're a scorned woman, Like all of that's bullsh You know, there are great resources out there and all you gotta do is google them, um, find your safe space. But it is always better to choose

safety and happiness and joy. And I hate that Deb didn't do that. And now maybe some of her behavior in the later seasons is making sense because we're seeing the trauma unfold. And I didn't recognize it as a younger viewer me either. I didn't know that that is

what happens in marriages because I was a kid, you know. Yeah. Meanwhile, Lucas, by the way, it gets to and look, I'm sorry, I know you guys don't want us bagging on Lucas, but look, it's good for a character to have an arc, and right now his flaws are glaring, and that's okay. But what bothers me about this whole scenario is, on one hand, we're seeing Deb who is feels deeply sorry about this, and she's you know, trying to figure out for trying to find her way in life, and she's

in an abusive relationship. Let's make no qualms about that. And then we've got Lucas on the other hand, who has been playing the field with both girls and uh gets to kind of get off Scott free. Yeah, they're mad at him, but like his mom is all like, oh, it's okay, don't worry. Everything's gonna be fine, you know. And then oh and he gets to take home a you girl from a bar and like mess around with her and have fun at the carousel. It's so double standard.

This episode is the boy fantasy. It is absolutely the boy fantasy. Because Dan his control over everyone is on full display in this episode. He's got control over deb He's got control over Nathan giving him the car he's a where's my thank you? He's got control over Lucas because I saved your life. Where's my thank you? And he's got control over Keith now yes, And so that's his fantasy. And then Lucas from the first scene that we see him, like running the brook and he's like,

we didn't mean to hurt you. Like, first of all, we we bro Peyton was saying no, no, no, no, no, no no no no. Pick her at her most vulnerable when she thinks her dad is dead, and like get her to admit, okay, yes, I like you, what do you want from me? And then convinced her that your soulmates like it's out to be us, and then you drag her into the best friend fight. I just I I own Peyton's mistakes, but like, it's a hard one for me to swallow when he's like, hey man, it

was being Peyton this whole time. We were just you know, plotting against you. Sorry, well, and I think what's hard to watch, you know, because like you said, when we were kids trying to figure out how to do this, we were going to work and doing the things written for our characters. So I was like, you're both betrayers and this, that and the other. But watching it now, I feel for these young girls in in a in like your older aunt who you asked the questions to

that you never would ask your mom. I have that kind of energy for all of these girls, and my god, it makes me crazy that we didn't see at the time that what was happening. And again, guys, we have to separate anybody's like you know, personal adoration of the show from what was written for us to do and the writers wrote a very long and very toxic and very gentle pressuring Lucas pressured Peyton in a way that's not okay. A guy who loves you isn't supposed to

do that to you. And and the betrayal that comes out of that for him to then throw on her evenly it does. It does from girl Camp. It feels upset. What what's the what do you mean when you say the pressure that he's putting on her? Like what Hillary is talking about, how that character was written for episodes and episodes and episodes were meant to be together, were meant to you do you want to be with me? Right? You do? He goes at her physically when she is

in a state of associative trauma. Her dad might be dead, she has to go to the morgue and see a dead body. And it's just so it's a kind of pressure. It is again, and I know this stuff can be very triggering, but it's we've all been taught to fear the like scary guy in the alley, the like horrible thing that can happen, you know, a sexual assault like

laun or SPU style. And what we've come to find is that so many more women who experienced that experience it from an intimate partner or as a date rape scenario, and and the energy of this well, I'm not saying that that's what was written for Lucas to do to Peyton. What I am saying is it's on the spectrum of intimate partner abuse, and it's it's really hard to watch. It's taking advantage of someone who needs a friend really bad. You know, I don't doubt like Lucas and Peyton or endgame,

they obviously saw something in each other. They found safety in each other. It is a very messy, bumpy road to get there, and they're teenagers. Their teenagers, you're supposed to screw up. But what he is doing is not okay, and he admits it in this episode at the Bay. You know, we caught so much for calling out Lucas in these episodes for doing this exact thing. And then literally he's in the bar with Nikki and she says, you got a girlfriend, and he says, well, I had to,

you know, like hed it. So for all of you who gave me a nearful, I see you and I raise you. A Night of the Blue post where he admits it in this episode, So I feel vindicated personally absolutely, And listen, I like what you said. You know, these two characters, the really magical stuff we see in the beginning is why Lucas and Peyton are endgame. It's why they wind up in a good place. But I think what's hard for us as women who as as we've

also talked a lot about it. We have more language, more understanding, more data, We understand the nuance of abusive relationships and all of these things, these themes we're talking about in the show, and to look back on it, it's not just like cringeing it. It's hard to watch

because we see things that are toxic being modeled as romantic. Yeah, and it's also like, guys, you know, we also saw behind the scenes from people who were in the position of writing this stuff, a lot of toxic um behavior, behavior, communication, um,

just outlook on the world, outlook on women. We saw all that happening in real time, in real life, and knowing that those people were the ones, some of those people were the ones in charge of writing the material that we were performing, it's it is a little harder for us to just look at it objectively and say, oh, Lucas was blah blah blah or just this or just that, because we know what was behind the personalities writing some of this stuff and so um, so if it seems

like we're exaggerating or you know, blowing it out of proportion, we have a we have a behind the you know, scrim perspective. Yeah. I was gonna say, pay no attention to the man, but please do like please do see you know, this is a little bit more than just what was on screen. And so I think that's a

lot of what we're reacting to. And and it's also a good thing for people to to think about in real life too, is there is there um going about their relationships and scenarios where I don't know if it's partnerships or friendships or whatever. It just to recognize that there's always it's it's always a little bit more than just what you see on the surface. Yeah, that's a good point. Joy, I'm glad that you Yes, it's you

know the one. It was so dark for the first few scenes of this episode because we were all just grimacing, and then it was the scene in the cafe with Joy where she she says the line it was just like all times minus one spleen and I was so good, Like, Haley did not have anything to do this episode. Everybody was like dealing with like chaos and having sex on carousels, and Haley is just like you guys here show crows in Town, show Chrome, you know, show crows in Town.

I wonder who's going to guest star in this episode? Interesting? Also, let's just be real. First of all, the hilarity of trying to win tickets on eBay and you're like the l yeah, I've got a high speed internet connection, sweet baby, Nathan, oh my god, and and the like purity of the less technical times matched to you at the end when she's like how much do I owe you for the coffee? When Nathan's like, you're being so awkward and you go a song a cup of song, like he's so old?

Can you imagine someone actually saying that to Cheryl Carl I love that about it. I love that about her. She totally would do that. Has anyone pulled that on you in real life? Has anyone tried to bother with you? I don't know what I would do. Somebody was like, if you sing for me right now, I'll give you whatever blah blah blah. If I give you this Curry Joy, this curry Diner, free, will you sing as the song free Curry. I'd have to be really in the mood.

I'd have to be in the mood. But Cheryl Crow was in the mood. She was so sweet when she came in. Um, A lot of people were there. Everybody kind of we all showed up. We were hiding in corners. Actually, guys, I said that when we watched the episode for everybody listening at home, we all were shocked because that Karen's cafe was more packed than it's ever been for anything. And then we realized in the scene that it was

supposed to be empty. But we all remember that night as like a hundred people being there because we were we were just hiding off camera. Yeah, where were we? I feel like we were all tucked away in the corners of actually over why where the table was where um Moira and I and Chad all had that one

scene earlier. I think everybody was kind of on that and we were like people were sitting on the bar and behind the bar because the dollies, the big, the big pieces of equipment, y'all that the cameras rest on. They're kind of like big heavy wagons. The dollies were in front of the actual countertop, and so we were all, I mean people, We might as well have been hanging from the rafters trying to watch her sing, but we were so storks. Total money did they have to pay

show grow to come into One Tree Hill. I'll tell you one thing that was in her deal that I know how to have been in her deal was that she scored the whole episode. Like they used her I don't know if she scored it, but like they used only her music for the whole episode. Was only her songs. Yeah, that makes so smart. Yeah, I would have done that.

And her guitarist, Jeff is somebody. Actually I ended up writing with UM a couple of years later, A year or so later when I got my contract with Epic Records. I remember that. Yeah, they hooked me up with that guy, Jeff, and he was such a sweetheart. We wrote some fun stuff together UM, and I was just super stoked to be working with anybody that had worked with Cheryl besides Billy Joel. She was like, my my Mecca. Did you use her music as auditions songs? Because I did oh

and karaoke songs. Yeah, there was like a girl group that was getting like formulated in the nineties in d C at the Kennedy Center. That's where they were doing the auditions. And I had to go audition, right, and my first audition song was like an ace of bass song and they were like, you did a kid, you did it. Uh, you're coming back for a callback, you know, And it was it was so gross and like predatory.

And but then my callback song was all I want to do is have some fun and he and it's it's so cool that she came on our show because she imprinted on us was like our middle school years, right, you know. She's a really big deal. And I wish that, um, we'd all gotten to hang out with her, because she would have been one of those older chicks that would have imparted some wisdom. I can feel it. I think so too. I wish we could have asked her some questions.

I wish so too. I mean, I wish we had been able to have more time with her and just chat. But she was really sweet, and I think we were all really nervous. I was sweet, too nervous to talk to her about music or anything, but I should have she had an album. I think it wasn't the Globe Sessions because that was the super popular one that really broke out, but she had one that was kind of darker. I think maybe it was just called or it was

just called Cheryl Crow. And the song is so heartbreaking first cut as the deepest, like, yeah that I've cried to that song. I want to say there was a breakup during our One Tree Hill tenure that involved that song breaking my heart over and over again. And yeah, she was amazing. You know what else I loved in

this episode. I loved the I mean, I know it's a rough time, you know, Peyton and Brooke by the way winding up drinking together, cheersing that Lucas went home with another girl is so again the writing is so insane. But Hillary, we did a great job in that scene. You know, here's something. If we got to hang out a blue post all night, we had a great time.

We had a great time. It was fine. We were like definitely playing ski ball when they were changing camera lenses, for sure, But I did love the the kind of sweet quiet moment with our other favorites. We were robbed with Peyton and Jake and you making the mobile for Jenny was really really cute. But again, so this show like sped through stuff. You know, Joy made such a good point when we were watching the episode, She's like, God, you know you talked about success Ship. Yeah, one of

my favorite shows on HBO. So what's what I love about Succession? And it's not everyone's cup of tea, no, no show is, But um I what I really love about Succession is that you get to know the characters and even though they all sort of have these they're all kind of bad, yeah, but you you fall in love with them because of their humanity because it takes so long to see things unfold that in between all

the bad choices, you see the good possibilities. I mean, it's the reason that we people fall in love with with unhealthy partners, right, because you see all the good possibilities right before the horrible choice, bad day. Right. And and but what's great about it is it draws you in. It triggers that part of the human brain that loves a cliffhanger because we want to solve the mystery, want to see what's going to happen. And TV has really leveled up and why Succession is an example of that

is because they really take a long time. It's a slow burn to reveal all of these story points and the and the plot points as they twist and turn and and uh. The more I watch our show, the more I'm getting whiplash with all of the how fast everything is happening. And it's a shame because we've got good actors, we've got interesting characters, we've got a beautiful

setting and a great setup for story. But because we're blowing through it so fast, we're missing out on the anticipation and that, you know, all the all the excitement that you get from just slowly wandering through a journey and then boom, getting surprised by a twist and turn.

How good, how juicy would it have been if for two or three whole episodes we saw Keith stressing about money, going through other avenues of trying to get alone, admitting it to Karen, her looking at her finances, figuring out what would happen if she took out a second mortgage on the cafe, him saying I'm not gonna let you do it. The slow burn, the slow burn, the slow burn, Dan finding out ahead of time and like lauding and waiting. What if Dan let people think like he really was

going to do the right thing. What if we thought two episodes Dan was going to do the right thing and and then the oh he's your boss, that guy showed up. It would hurt so much worse. It would be so much deeper. And what about introducing uh Nikki? Yeah, we had three episodes before with like these weird little moments and she's in and out and we're like, oh, we've got this new character and who is she and why she is and the reveal. Yeah, it's just a lot.

I mean, do you guys think it was because we were constantly on the bubble and always afraid of it, Like they were always afraid that we were going to get canceled. They were just trying to shove everything in. So here's what's also insane is that, now that we've spoken to so many other people who were on shows in the same era as our show, everyone was always told they were on the bubble, and it was it was a ploy. It wasn't a real thing. Like, isn't

that sucks so bad? Guys? It's like finding out about Santa. It's just like, what where time we could have been having fun instead of strussed scared all the time. Well, so the Jacob it all. It's hard for me because I see how much fun I'm having with Greenberg. I see how much fun Peyton and Jake are having together. But Peyton literally just dive bombed her one friendship, like

her one true love Brook. You know that relationship has imploded over Lucas and Peyton's already like watching movies with Jake. Just it. As a former teenage girl, I was a teenage girl, believe it or not. When you were in love with someone, you don't automatically get your head turned by someone else. When it falls apart, there is a morning process, and I think having so many male writers was a detriment because that process was never really explored.

You know, Brooke just goes straight to like scorched earth um and it's like I'm going to destroy everything and you're the loser, and you're a loser, and you're a loser. You know, Peyton went from being with Nathan to being sort of with Luke right away, and then now all of a sudden, it's like this Jake thing is happening, and it's like, is her only value in being with a person like being with a dude? Um, that's hard, that's I mean, I'm sure that's something that we deal

with in real life. But I would have appreciated if Jake had gotten the respect he deserved and there would have been a little bit of breath between the you know, chapters of dudes. Yeah, that's a great point. I do think it's interesting when people say, you know, why is representation so important? It's stuff like this. You know, if there had been more women in positions of power, I

think maybe that would have been different. I think maybe someone would have said, you got to give her a minute, Like she's going to go home and cry into her pillow, right that's the scene, a scene like where is paying at home weeping over this? By the way, where was Brooks opportunity to like weep over this? Brook never cries

right like at home by herself. And it's weird, and it's like, and if she's not going to cry, if she's the kind of person that's going to refuse, I won't allow this to get me so sad or whatever. I want to know about that, and I want to know why, why is she like that? You know. Also, did you guys have nosy teachers at school? No? No, I had a camp counselor once who I thought was sweet, like she was invested a little bit more than others.

But I didn't have nosy teachers. My teachers knew every boy that I kissed, every boy that I talked to, Like, my teachers always knew what I was involved in. And so when oh it was so great, and when it would go sideways, like they were completely invested in it, like and it was incredibly sweet, you know, and so they would pull you aside lovingly and like trying to give you some good advice and you know, steer you

in the right direction. There's nobody at Trio High that is saying either to the girls like, Babe, this ain't worth it, This ain't it, or conversely like saying to Lucas, Dude, you were trying to date two girls at once, Like that's gross. Don't do that. You know why White, He's just concerned about his position on the team and their

winning record. You know, you know what, I wonder if that's why it lands on us and and made us all so upset watching this, because there is no one, not only holding any of these kids to account, but even just giving them advice. I mean, you said it. Even Karen's like, oh kid, cut, Oh my god, that's the worst her son. Okay, So at the end of this night, Lucas has has piste off both girls. He's gone missing. He left his phone at home, so he's unreachable.

He has gone to to a bar. He's reeking of alcohol, he's drinking on his pain meds. He goes and he has sex with a stranger on a carousel in a mall, breaking and entering, and then when he calls way too much Bronzer on God's sake, when he's run this boy, his mother doesn't say, where the hell were you? Why do you smell like beer? Why do you smell like this cheap perfume? You know? She's like, he gets away with it. She's like, Luke, I'm so glad we've had

this talk. This was protective. Wherever he is right now, it happening, bro not happened, No way, no God. How do we fix it? You guys? I mean, how do we like, how do we look with rose colored glasses on this episode? Well, I don't know if we look on this episode with rose colored glasses. But I will say it helps me to know where we're going. It

helps me to know who these characters turn into. It helps me to know that even though there was a clearly like misogynistic, abusive, gross lens on this episode, our show does supersede that it does learn over the years to advocate better for for women and for us like not always not. You know, we are very honest about the flaws here, but I I have to say that that's kind of the only way I can deal with it.

And I will say, I will say the one sort of stellar moment for me in the in the mess of how so many people get treated in this episode, I actually did think there was great writing in the scene where Lucas comes to bro. Yes, that's a good scene. You know. We I's gonna put it out there. We had been pushing back for the first fifteen episodes of this season. We were like, don't take our clothes off

and don't like, don't make us do weird stuff. And this episode felt a little bit like, Okay, you girls want to be the prudes. Cool, We'll let you be the prudes and we'll bring in someone else. And the performances that came out of that between Barbara and between you Rip and Lucas a new asshole, and between Joy being this like great plucky best friend that is like why are you being so weird? You know that's seen in the cafe between you and Lucas and Karen is fantastic.

You know, you kept the levity of the show going. And so I like watching the female performances in spite of what was on the page. It makes me feel good about what we did as a unit. Me too, And it's interesting to find, like you said, Joy, the rose colored glasses for me are the winds inside of the mess and and kind of the eye of the storm. Of this for me is a girl finally beginning to know her worth. And when Brook looks at Luke Guess and says, I used to feel inferior to you, and

she realizes that she let all these ideas. She felt small around this boy. She felt like she wasn't smart enough, for good enough, for well read enough, or didn't know enough about music, and she just looks at him and it's like, but I'm a good person and you're not right now, yeah, yeah, And I was just like, god, that's a win. For girls who've been through whatever version of this, and I don't know if that might if we're doing roses and thorns in the whole episode, is

a thorn that would be my rose? You know what? My roses? Um? NICKI in the bar with her pickup lines was so dreamy, which she says, nice eye contact. Um. That was a pickup line that I'd never heard before. Friends me neither. No. Yeah, I've also never seen that magic trick before. Wait, but here's the thing. Somebody, somebody in the writer room was like, I know a magic trick. We got to work it into the episode. Somebody's kid

did it in science class. They brought it into the writer's room and showed everybody and they were like, we got to put this. And also she just playing with matches the whole time, like she's a pyromaniac. Was a fyromaniac. So while we watched that was like, she's bad. She plays a fire. She's bad, well, because you were like, why does she keep lighting things on fire? And I was like, it's how we know she's bad, Like who did this? So great? But by the way, hats off

to Emmanuel, we love her. And she came in and and she just she committed to everything. But you can see on her face that she always felt like she had the upper hand. Yeah. Yeah, she always felt in control. She was And you know, it's funny because we had been pushing back and we had been saying, we feel really uncomfortable, and the big threat was, well, well, well we'll bring in somebody else. And Emmanuel was like, these girls are little girls. I'm a grown up and she

was playing someone over eighteen, you know, that's the difference. Yeah, And she was like, I like myself, I look badass. I feel great about this. And we were like, oh my god, she's amazing. Your power to her. We love her. I think they thought we were going to hate her, and instead we loved her. I think we were all like drawn to her. Oh yeah. I had lunch with her one time, and she was so like just in

the middle of the shoe. We just went out and grabbed some lunch, and she was like, she's just so interesting, so well traveled, so well read. She's very magnetic. Yeah. I really liked her. I liked her a lot too. Why didn't we sell her? Well, you know who knows, so ha ha jokes on them. My Roses also broke at the door. I love, I loved. I just loved

that moment. I really did and it and it still spoke to the girl and side of me that gets nervous around men I'm attracted to, and I should like my tongue swells up six sizes because I don't know how to talk, and I'm like, I don't know what to do with my Is that your tell? Is that how we know you like somebody? Now when we're all together, all right, we're all now enjoy No, it doesn't, actually,

but I do get. I do kind of clam up and I get I just start to feel I don't know, it's like it's a little girl thing of feeling inferior and feeling like I'm not good enough for whatever reason. Um, I'm working on it. But but I love that moment at the door. That that really was so cool for me to watch and it still spoke to me even all these years later. I loved it. You did a really good job with that. So that was And we

were all so cold and stressed out this episode. I can see the stress on all of us in this episode, and guys like knowing what a wet North Carolina winter feels like and all of our hands are in our pockets and our body these are just like super tense and we can't move our mouths. Um, it's just cursed episode. Is that we'll call this the cursed episode? That'll be the title of the podcast. This one is cursed? Cursed? Do we have any listener questions? Oh, that's a great idea. Okay,

this one's from Alexa. Alexa asks, I've always wondered what it was like for each of you when the show grew in popularity. What was the most overwhelming part of your stardom. Was there anything you had to change about your daily routines? Oh? Interesting? Um? I was? I mean, I don't know. We were living in Wilmington's it was a little different, Sophia. You were in l A more than any of us. Was l A A different? Like? No, l A was actually always easier just because there's more

industry and people seem to care less. Um, I can certainly go for first because I I think I'm probably the person with the worst social anxiety that will take

care of you. I'm like, outside is hard. Um. That was always really hard for me because there was this what I realized was that there was an expectation for me to be like loud and into it and wanting to party like Brooke and um, I love to go out and adventure with groups of people I know, but the the the inward bound from strangers was really hard

for me. And I actually that apartment that I loved so much, I had to move because people people figured out that I lived there, and then I could never get into my home without someone literally standing in between me and my front door. And when you're a single girl being alone for the first time, it made me feel really really unsafe. And I still feel like deeply unsafe when just normal boundaries aren't respected. But that was

pretty scary. So yeah, I mean my daily routine was I had to move out of my apartment and move somewhere else. That was kind of a bummer. Hillary, did you have any well. I think Peyton helped me establish boundaries because I had been the VJ at MTV that would like go out into Times Square and be in the crowd, and I was always with people and it was not a big deal when people would be touching me. And I will say that like post nine eleven, I probably had some PTSD about it. Um. The crowds became

really scary to me because there was a threat. It was like a danger. And I did never think that I would be the thing that a crowd would collect around, that like us filming together would be the thing, because before I was always the person just covering the crowd, if that makes sense. I was peripheral. And so when we kind of got thrust into the center of things, that was terrifying because there wasn't ever an exit strategy and I'm always the person that's looking for an exit strategy,

and so that was kind of weird. But because Peyton was so confrontational and so flip, you know, it afforded me the luxury of being able to do that in real life. And so if someone was crossing boundaries, I could say hey you and like they laugh because I was in king, you know, And so it it gave me a lot of freedom to be ornery in a way that was protective UM, which I still utilize that like not have that luxury. Yeah you were the nice girl.

I know everybody expected that Hay to be so nice, but I I also grew up with a lot of issues with boundaries. But my way of dealing with it was not too I would go on the offense and like it. I would. I was rude. I was I was just like, don't invade my space, leave me alone, don't you know? I don't. And I think also, I was a New Yorker before I before I got this show. I mean I had lived in l A for a year, but I grew up in Jersey and in the city, and like I was felt like a New Yorker and

in New York people aren't weird about it. It's just like, hey, girl, I want you all my stories, you know, like love seeing you like you know, and you just say, hey, what's up? And you keep on walking. But having people, yeah, find out where you live follow the van home um, which happened a lot in Wilmington's um. You know, people in restaurants coming up and talking to you in the middle of your meal and you're trying to have a private conversation. And I didn't know how to handle it

into what to do. And my my answer to feeling suddenly forced into a situation I didn't want to be in was to shut it down immediately. I didn't I didn't have the tools to learn how to be gracious about it or you know, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You know, I'm just having a private moment right now, but I'd love to come talk with you afterward, you know, or whatever. I didn't have those tools. I didn't know. There was no way to teach us that. Yeah, yeah,

so I think that was that was hard. It was that was a long lesson to learn because you just don't know what to do. What do you do? And I don't know. It's awkward. Yeah, it takes a long time to learn what those boundaries are. And by the way, all three of us are pleasers and so hard, it's really hard. And it's hard also to learn how to set a boundary and then not lose sleep for the next three nights feeling guilty about it. Yes, you know, and I think I finally had to realize, if you know.

A friend of mine said this to me. Was like, if you worked at a tech company and eight people were over your shoulder tapping you on the shoulder, bring what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? You'd be like stop it. But like, for some reason, when you're an entertainer, you're not supposed to do that, and so I had to learn what what my boundaries were, like I'm not going to get up from my meal with my family, but if you're here

when we're done, I'll see you at the door. Like things that could create that, But it's also you've got I mean, it might be like you you could be nice to the first three people and then the fourth person and then the fifth person, by you get time to get to the seventh person in the day, and you're just tired of being interrupted, and maybe you're having a hard day, and maybe there's some crazy happening in

your life. It's just, oh my god, that's joy. That's the worst when you've got happening in your life, which, by the way, we were in our early twenties, there was happening in our life every other day day, and so having to do that and also be like pleasing and like hey everybody, yeah, of course I want to picture. I loved taking pictures of people. But then I also, I mean, I don't think it's a secret. I started smoking too, because I realized that if I was smoking,

no one would talk to me. And I was like, oh my god, joy, this magic trick When I would hang out because Peyton can do bad things. Because Peyton Sawyer is a bad girl. Her and Nikki should have fallen in love instead of falling in hate. So that's the thing. It's like. And I wasn't even smoking half the time. I was just like holding it because when you're doing that, you're unapproachable, right, But if you're just standing outside looking at your phone or like doing whatever,

you're totally approachable. And so yeah, if you want to carry around a pack of Virginia Slims and look and look real unapproachable, that's the trick. Wow. Yeah, I had no idea. That's a good that's a good trick. Yeah. Sometimes people will post pictures of those days on the internet and I'm so embarrassed. But I'm also like, you know what, I was, Tony too, what do you want for me? I was a mess. I'm trying to figure it out whatever. I'm growing up now. But a great question.

It's it's fun to think about that stuff. It's also a little cringey because I know I was. I'm sure that I was rude to some people that I wish I hadn't been, probably too hard to I was just like shut it down and nope, I can't. Nope, sorry, no, thank you, you know I'm busy or whatever. I just didn't you know whatever, We didn't know well. But I think it's also it is really worth repeating that you can't be all things to all people at all times,

and especially in a town like ours. There's two sides to every coin, right, And like, what an amazing thing that during spring break weeks we'd have five hundred people outside. My god, I think got about you know well, but to realize how much your show means. But also, you can't get through town with five hundred people following you around. There's a point where you have to go. You gotta

back up, You've got to stop. I'm just I can't. Also, working like we're working long hours and and going out and sit chatting with fans, it actually sucks a lot of energy out of us. But then we also have to still go back and do our job, which is why I hardly ever went out and took photos with fans,

because it's not because I was opposed to it. It was that I knew how much energy would suck out of me, and I knew that I had a whole day's day of workload ahead of me that I wouldn't be able to do my job properly if I had like released all that energy out to other people. Well, especially because you're an introvert, you know, like, yeah, that's what I mean. It sucks a lot of energy out of me. I made it kind of my thing where I was like, at work, I will come when I can,

and outside of here, please respect my personal life. So it made it was the thing that actually made me feel free being able to go do that. Um. We have one of the question from Kristen that is when you had musical artists on the show, did you ever get to talk or hang out with them? Um? Yeah, I feel like we've talked about Gavin, Like Gavin came to play pool with us at the bars. Um well, I mean I had a mega crush on Grace Potter.

Oh yeah, she was awesome girl. And she came out with like me and Beth crook Am I think one night and I was just like, oh my god, she's so cool. She's so cool. Yeah, I loved her. The folks stayed on the show a bit. I mean we were all too scared to say anything to Cheryl Crowe but as the years went on, you know, Kate Vogel became a character, Tyler was a character. So it was so fun because we got to have Pete Wentz Oh

my god. Oh like we got to have all these wonderful relationships and friendships with people who initially came on the show for their music. Yeah, and don't forget Bethany Joe Lens. I liked our fake music friend Kevin Federline, like, oh yeah, Kevin lip synced. He did not really sing on the show. And we'll tell that story when we get there because it's one of my favorite stories in the show. Um. But we went out to oh what was that bar that was on the corner of Front

Street and then like where river View Suites are. All I remember is being in this bar very late at night and Kevin Federline buying everyone's shots and being so lovely and so fun and so like he was awesome. He was. I was so mad they cast him and then he ended up being so lovely and so oh Nick lash was really great. We had a good run.

We had a good run. If we could have Okay, so here's my question to piet back that, um, if we could have any musical performer on that would also have to have dinner with us and hang out with us after the fact. Who would we have? Oh man, this is really tough. I know. Listen, I only asked the hard hitting questions. That's hard Pete Yourn, I feel it would be are you gonna kiss Pete Yourn? No? I haven't. I don't even I even listen to his music in many, many years. But I don't know why

his name just popped up. I looked up Pete your not long ago joy and he has the same exact hair that he had in two thousand, like the long hair, and I was like, God, bless, Oh that's awesome. I hear Sean Mullins is pretty cool too. Guys. I just want to have dinner with Stevie Wonder. So I picked Stevie one. Yeah, that's a good one. Amazing. I mean, look, I I had an answer, but you said Stevie, and my brain went straight to Stevie Nicks and I was like, oh, queen,

I mean, there's so many legends. There's so many legends. Well, I was gonna say boy George because when I was in high school I was obsessed with boy George and I think if we're going to be drama queens and add a layer of bitch to this show, Yes, yeah, he's the queen. Um. Yeah, those are good questions. You all want to spin a wheel? Ye? Shall we spend a most likely wheel? I mean, honestly, where did Pete Jorne come from? Why is that in my brain? I don't know, but I'm about to listen to him as

soon as we're done. Now I'm gonna go. I know. Now I'm gonna go with Okay, folks, give it to him. So who who's most likely to end up in prison? I think in this episode, Lucas brother is drinking, breaking an addecent exposure in a public place. Yeah, totally, you're right, breaking the law? Yeah? Wait, who's most likely to get arrested in Like Nikki for sure would have been arrested

as an accessory, so they're both going to jail. Yeah yeah, and statutory rape, but that's a different story, guys, we're not going to Oh man, I like him young? Can we live that life? That was awful? That's how you know it's a bunch of dudes being like, you know what, I wish the hot girl in college and said to me when I was in high school. Gross gross, so gross, I mean in real life and most likely to get

arrested Leonora's everything. But by the way, like Lee is the one who at like two o'clock in the morning is like Heckaine from across the street, Like, do we have any like hippies who would be like at the you know, real, I'm selling such an old person calling somebody a HIPPIEPPI. You know, people who would like the man piket lines and who would be like, uh, you know in the front of somebody would get arrested for sofia.

It would be yeah, you're for real going to get arrested on a on a protest line at some point? Have you before I've been threatened. No, I've been threatened with arrest on a protest line multiple times. Um. But there's just like a couple of key phrases you need to learn about your rights. And then they're like us that one's read the law and they move on. What are they educated? Well, I'll write you up a whole I'll write you up a whole document. There's there's multiple

to learn that they're not going to memorizeiting. Maybe we'll post it in the stories as a resource protest resource. I like, oh my god, yeah, all right, it's your lucas. You guys are trouble. One is political, one is perverted. I'm down, damn the man. The next episode, number seventeen, we have spirit in the nights. It's going to be better, you guys. I believe in the next episode. I believe in us. It cannot be worse than this. Well, here's the thing. We all end up in such awesome places.

We gotta turn it around at some point, right, Yeah, and hopefully we'll be less cold. Um, So let's see how the next episode shapes up. You guys have been also, thanks for hanging out with us. Guys, thanks Darlin's Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens o t H or email us at Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time. Were all about that high school drama girl, Drama girl, all

about them high school queens forever. We'll take you for a ride at our call the Girl Cheering for the Right teas Drama Queens Dreelise my glup Girl Fashion but your tough girl, you could sit with us. Girl Drama, Queens, Drama, Quez Drama, Queen's Drama, Drama, Queen's Drama, Queens