That Did Not Age Well • EP218

what I'm going to say. I know what you're gonna say. Um. This show originally aired April two thousand five. Let me give you the synopsis and then, uh, then we'll really get into it. On his way home from seeing Haley, which, if you remember from last week, really didn't go well, Nazy stops to visit Taylor m hoping for some fun and maybe more gross. Meanwhile, Anna gets a surprise visit from her old girlfriend. Oh my god, what good scenes these were, and is inspired to finally come out to

her parents. Lucas works with Andy to try to bring Dan down. Karen puts her foot down with Brooke, who gets grounded and Peyton and Jake continue to hide baby Jenny from Nikki don Donda. Well, much like our episode this week where there was no Hailey to be found, Joy is being a cool mom and it's like on a school field trip going across country right now, So we're just gonna have to talk about her. She's taking Maria on a pretty rat adventure and we just couldn't

make today work. So we'll miss her like we did then when she went on tour and we stayed home without her. God, it just the show loses something without her, It really does, and we felt it in this episode. Can I just say it? Can I just I hate this episode? I know, I hate this episode. It is my least favorite episode. The misogyny is strong wrong. Yeah,

there's just a lot that isn't good. But here's the thing, Like you said that, Anna, scenes in this episode should have been served up on a golden platter because they are beautiful, and Danielle Alonso is like finally getting this like grand opus of her character coming full circle, and it just gets lost in the bush. Well, and you know what's interesting. So I was thinking about this as I was watching it. Because for for our friends at home,

we normally watch these episodes together. We get on zoom um if we're not you know, obviously in the same city, and we watch them together. That's where all the reaction videos come from. And sometimes we're very shocked by things we didn't we really did. They needed to be buried um. But you know, then we jump into the podcast and we talked about it because we've just done it together.

We've all been scribbling notes and laughing about things. And because this week is crazy for us Joys on the road, we've all got a bunch of stuff going on, we had to watch the episode separately. So Hillary, you were like, this is ridiculous. You were like you were You were like, this twenty minute coyote ugly sequences and here's what's wild. So I was like, prepped, I didn't remember what this episode was, you told me, so I was prepped for it.

And when the sequence started, I was like, oh, man, is this mine like internalized misogyny for the early two thousand's that I think this is kind of cute? And then I was like, oh, yep, I see what. I see what my sister is talking about. Because the cute has ended. Now it's gross. Now these poor girls whose you know names nobody even knew who got hired n Taylor's coworkers are like smacking their asses and gratuitous close ups. Oh, and it's still going for minutes every minutes and minutes

and minutes and minutes. And I was like, yeah, and let those girls lovely the dancers, beautiful girls criticizing them. It's not it's what the people in charge decided to do with minutes of screen time with a bunch of young women. They took it from like a cute a potentially cute moment and made it just about like gyrating bodies and booty close ups with no to your point, no dialogue for these girls, no fun, bar banter, no oh that's the that's the brother in law, like nothing

that advanced the story. And I just really didn't like it. I see, I wouldn't steer you wrong. Maybe I know you never would, but I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna have to tell her I don't hate it. And I was like, oh, I went from not hating

it to really hating it. Look, I loved Coyote Ugly when it came out, and I bought leather pants at the Wilson's Leather in the mall with such a quickness because I was working at the Buffalo Wing factory back home in Virginia and was like, I'm on a bartend in leather pants too, you know, in the middle of summer,

because that's hot. Um. But this there's a male gaze, and there's a male lens that we've talked about quite a lot, and so there's good stuff in this episode that gets grody because you're looking at it through that male lens. Like Brooke not knowing how to mop in this episode and being down on her hands and knees made me so mad. Sophie, I know I did. I gotta say, I think again. I was prepped. It's like when you go to a movie thinking it's going to

be great. It isn't. You're let down, but when somebody tells you it's not great, you're like, actually, I thought it was kind of good. I I thought the scene I and I forgot about it. I forgot shooting that. So the memory that came with it made me laugh so hard. I thought Brooke Davis having no idea at a mapa floor and using a sponge like looking up me as her looking up and Lucas going is that wrong? I burst out laughing. I was like this is this to me is funny. But I also was like, well,

it's gonna make Hillary so mad. I'm just like, why do we have this girl that just accomplished so much back on her hands and knees? How do we get that girl? I will say what I didn't like about it was the way that it was shot. Yes, that's literally had it had me positioned in a in a way with a man standing behind me that I thought was not classy. I thought the shots and the humor. Then again in the camera angle and this is sort

of a production note that I didn't like. I was like, guys, you could have put the camera in a space where my head was like level with his chest, not with his groin, Like that's gross and to your point, that's male gish that just as an actor especially, you don't know that's happening to you because not behind the monitor, you can't see the angle. And that that was what I didn't like. I I liked the innocence of you know, the Brooke Davis who has never done chores. But I

didn't like that. The comedy of that is adorable, and there was a way to do it in an adorable way. And and you on your knees with a man living

a boy looming over you. I didn't like that. There's a punchline in there that doesn't have to be said out loud, but the viewer sees it, you know, and it's and to your point, I think that this is an important conversation, like we all are better when we are willing to examine nuance and when we're willing to be honest and frank about what's good and what's not. And that's kind of what this episode is. Like. The

Anna stuff was really good. The way that they were gross to those girls who they didn't even give any dialogue, and the coyote ugly rip off was not good. The humor in the brook and Lucacino when he says, Brooke, this is a mop like there was some gold you know? Is that wrong? I'm never going to stop thinking about it. There was some comedic gold there that was you mind it, you did it? Thank you? I will take it like that was good, But then the way it was shot

was bad, and it I think for us all of us. Really, it's always good to go back and look at how we can examine that those dualities and things we've done work, we've done experiences, we've you know, whatever the thing might be that you're looking at, so that you can more quickly spot the good in the bad in the present and try to filter out the bad. So, you know,

there were things about the episode I liked. To man, there were things I really did not Well, maybe we'll set the table with this because guys, just so you know, Sophie and I conferred before we taped this podcast because I was like, I don't want to be Debbie Downer, man, I don't want to be like this one sucks, but also this one sucks. Um. But then we also were like, okay, well, what else was going on in two thousand five that

was questionable? Because there's a ton of questionable in this episode, you know, like Peyton tells like a white trash joke that doesn't feel great. It's cringe E. It's cringe E. But back then, you know, people were still saying all sorts of inappropriate stuff, and so we pulled up a list. Hold on, we've got a list of two thousand five movies and songs, so we we wanted to know what

was popular. End that might be a little cringeing. Now evolved, we've got the top movies of two thousand five were Into the Blue Hitch, the Dukes of Hazard, Wedding Crashers, an American Pie Band Camp. I mean, it's not jokes in those movies, so many dick jokes in all of

these things. They they had a theme. And then the songs of two thousand five, Don't You by the Pussycat Dolls, gold Digger by Kanye West, My Humps the Opus by the Black Eyed Pieces, Art, Just a Little Bit by fifty Cent Candy Shop by fifty Hey, a Big Year rob It Like It's Hot by Snoop Dogg, which I would say stands the test of time. That is a classic that one can still get, it can stare in. Is the duality it's like, it's like it could be a whole era of dick jokes and songs about boobs

and butts. You drop it like It's Hot is iconic. I'd like to keep the drop it like It's Hot and veto the the misogyny and the Confederate flag permanently. That's that's what I'd like. I think those should should go away, but we should we should keep snoop. I mean got the super Bowl halftime show. We all outed ourselves this year at the super Bowl. Oh my god.

It was made me so happy. It was My son thought I was so cool because I've met so many of them from MTV and gust It's like, you've met these people and I'm like, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, Mom's cool. Dude, you don't even you know? Um was weird. I mean it was weird. Also, where I know we've talked about is but really the me mopping scene, I was like, where are the rest of my pants? Girl? There was such an enormous space between where my shirt

ended and where my pants began. And that's why people started getting tramp stamp tattoos, just to like bridge the gap, bridge that giant gap of just pale flesh. Oh man, maybe it's not too late. We could still get those. So I don't think I want one. I've thought about where I might want my next tattoo, and I just don't think that's ever going to be a place for me. You know what I would like to do, though, I think perhaps we should make some temporary tattoos and maybe

for like a week, that'd be fun. That's a good idea, stamp for a week. Also, are we allowed to say that? Is that a term that lives in two thousand five? Again? Tramp stamp? You know? And like, un we always called those tank tops wife beaters, which is like, no, there's a whole learning curve that is good. It's a good thing, and so we are going to accept that. We love our show. We love the characters on our show. We don't like certain elements, we don't like certain words that

are used. The white trash thing really made me feel awful in this episode. No, it's disgusting. How in the same show, then, do you have this storyline with Anna? Let's talk about the glowing moment of the show. I have to okay, Anna and Darby, Yes, and Jake and Whitey. Oh yeah that was good, really winning moments. But yes, let's let's start with Anna. I am I just love watching Daniello work and it's funny. This episode gave me the same feeling I had um when she came on

Animal Kingdom. Did you watch that show, that Nancy show? Oh? Yes, oh yes, I love that show, and when she came on, I was like, oh my god, Daniella, and it was such a joy to to see her embodying that character, you know, this young mom. And it's really interesting, having seen her, you know, in a more recent project, to go back and watch her and just be like, God, you can see the you can just see it in

her all the way back to two thousand five. She's so present and vulnerable, and what I like so much is that she's not afraid to hide the struggle that Anna is going through. She she doesn't you know, memorize her lines in a way where they just tumble out. She finds the words and you know when for again, for the folks at home, when you've shot a scene eighteen times, to make it look spontaneous, you know, requires some technical skill. And I just of watching her. Yeah, well,

and Darby coming on. This character of Darby played by Spray graydon Um. I've seen Spray Grayden and so many different things everything. I hope I'm saying her name right because I get self conscious about that. But we've done like four different shows together. She was on One Tree Hill, White Collar, Lethal Weapon, and Gray's Anatomy and so whatever casting director Yeast of these shows, they're like, yes, these

are the kinds of girls that we like. Yeah. Well, also they're like when you need somebody to come in for an episode and really hit hit a home run and get her so talented beautiful, it's a part that could have gone It could have gone sideways. You know, sometimes you don't know when you're only doing one episode of a show. She plays this like beautifully nuanced character in just one episode, Like she should have had four episodes to kind of play this out and check in

and dance around Anna on figure out their feelings. She gets it done in one. She's got the great scene with Lucas where Anna doesn't really know how to introduce her and then goes for it. Yeah, frankly, I'm jealous that Lucas got all those scenes, Like I'm like, where's Peyton. She's been the one like defend me here. I know

you're like, excuse me, this is my friendship. But it was important to see a boy accepting of this friendship in two thousand five, when this was still an uncomfortable conversation to have, and to have a boy celebrate it, you know and be like I'm gonna miss you as a friend. Um. The work that Chad got to do in that storyline I'm jealous of. I know it was really really nice for him, and I do think it's important.

We are more accustomed to women modeling vulnerability and acceptance with each other, and so to have a boy do it to teach viewers that, you know, these two girls who had been in love were not a punchline does feel important, especially in two thousand five. You know, it hit me so hard because we were talking in advance

of this about what's changed. And in the one of the later scenes between Darby and Anna, when Darby is explaining to Anna how she came out to her own parents and what went well and what was hard, and she talked about, you know, it was hard to see some of their dreams Spanish. Oh my god, Sophia, that was horrible. It broke me because and I went, wow, there are kids who are watching One Tree Hill now who didn't experience two thousand five, when if you were

in a queer couple you couldn't get married. It was illegally. Yes, it was illegal for two people who are in love with each other to marry each other, which is so insane. It's insane. And the idea that you couldn't have children, that that was a dream that went away. God, I'm so glad you said that, because I wrote it down here in my notes, And yes, like you, I was floored because the change in our lifetime is vast and I hope it continues to get better and better and better.

And it's always going to be a fight, it just is. And so we're down for the fight. And I'm proud that we were on a show that was a part of the fight, you know, in the early days. Um, but yeah, that that reality is it still feels icky. Yeah. Well, and look, you know, we're we're here to analyze our show,

but it does feel um in this particular moment. While while we're analyzing a show that's pretty evergreen, we are talking about change and progress and there are laws happening all around the US right now where there are political parties trying to roll back equal and civil rights for people. There are elected officials campaigning against gay marriage, which is such an annoying thing to say, marriages, marriages, marriage, stop it.

And but you know, because we're talking about groups of people who are denied their rights because of who they are, which you know is unconstitutional. But here we are to your point, Hillary, We're going to have to keep fighting this fight. There are also elected officials in our country right now who are saying that they want to roll back the law that made interracial marriage legal. I know, Oh my god, I saw that. Like y'all, this is crazy.

And so this does feel like if there was ever a moment to remind the folks at home, please get

involved in your communities. Please make sure you are registered to vote, even if you know whatever the next election cycle might be, there's two candidates in every race, right Like, maybe you don't have a perfect candidate, but please show up and vote for the candidates who are on the side of progress and equality, because if we don't, we are gonna risk going back to a time where people who are in love have to look at each other and say, we will never be able to get married,

we will never be able to have kids. And the fight of our lifetime has been to undo that injustice. And you can see how recent it was. We were talking about it on our show in two thousand five. We cannot go back. There are Anna's and Derby's in every community. Yes, whether they're out to you, or they're out to the whole community, or they've kept it to themselves. And so if you love our show and you love these characters and you can empathize with what they're going through,

then yeah, get up fight for them. That is important. Um show up for people, and show up for people we love, because there's a lot of people out there who are showing up with a lot of hate. Yeah, they're so loud. And I think I think we can. I think we can remind not only ourselves, because we do it for each other. I mean, you know, we talk about this, the articles we text each other, we get fired up about. I was sending you guys articles

this morning about just like what's happening? What are we doing? But you know, I think not only can do we do that in our friendship with each other, but I think that the the sort of friendship of spirit that our show has created for us and for our viewers and our fans and all of our one try heill friends, I think we can use that as an example to show up in love as well. So Gus and I talked about this a lot, and maybe we'll get away

from our how much I dislike this episode. Um, with the exception of the Anna storyline by venturing into this. But my son wants to be a director, and you know, he's like, I'm gonna make horror movies. And I have these conversations with him at a young age, like why why do you want to make a horror movie? And he's like, well, I think they're fun. It's like okay, but like what's your message? What's the real thing that's scary?

Like what what are you making this about? And so that is something that even on our teen drama, Like teen dramas are dorky guys. We know, we never want an Emmy for One Tree Hill. But if we advanced the ball for people like Anna, if we opened the door for people to have conversations that used to be uncomfortable that are maybe less uncomfortable, that's more important. And so the why UM, and I do think our show sometimes did a very good job of being dork and

thereby making these conversations not intimidating. It's like these little ding dongs can do it. You know, we can have this hard talk. I can go to my parents, you know. I. Um, it's actually really interesting you say that we were Gosh. It was in an early episode of Good Sam. I only remember because Edwin and I had to go to this like fancy restaurant and our characters were going on a date and then we see our dads there and we're like, our dads are in CODs, um. And we

had this lovely woman who's not our normal set photographer. UM. She was filling in because our our normal gal was away with her family. And she was an older lady. She was like in her sixties. And she said to me on the way out after we wrapped. You know, it was like one in the morning, We're all going to the vans to go home, and she says, hey, you know, I just really want to thank you. Um. Your show One Tree Hill was really impactful for me

because is my granddaughter loved it. So then my daughter started watching it with her, and then I started watching it with them, and it got three generations of us talking to each other. And my granddaughter started talking to us about the things going on in her life that she would never open up about before. And I just thought, man, those are the kind of shows I want to be a part of. That just helped families talk to each other. Yeah, there's you know, that's literally all our show was. It's

just people talking to each other. Here's what I want to get. I want to get your take on Karen just being like so angry. Okay, all the women in this episode are just turned up to eleven. It's like how a man thinks a woman talks. And so Karen's like super freak mad, Yeah, super mad. Also like what they did with Taylor being like, yeah, I was just testing you. I wasn't really gonna have sex with you. You was the thing. It was like so many of the choices that women were making in this we're really

bothering me. It was like all of a sudden, Brooke went from being like, oh, I'm doing the designated driving thing and I'm also you know, school president to like party, party, party, party, party, drunk, and it was like, well, this felt like a little bit of a back slide, which I would understand if there was like a reason for it. You know. You

know what's interesting. I hear you on that, and I think, look at the end of the day, like kids or kids, and if you're the designated driver one weekend, maybe one of your friends as a designated driver the next weekend. I mean, it's like, now that we're so distant from high school, we want to be like, no, you don't need that. But then I think about it and I'm like, yeah,

a lot of kids party in high school. Okay. Um, So I think what what was missing for me was more of the space filler, Like what I would have appreciated it as if you'd seen Brooke go to the party with Bevan and make the decision and bevn be like, you haven't been out with us in you know, two months,

I'll drive you home. I won't drink. And then you'd see Brooke make the decision to like party and and and you know you'd noticed the time, and she'd be like, Okay, I'll just stay for thirty more minutes, and you'd see Karen like waiting for her at the cafe. But we couldn't do any of that because there was a seventeen minute long sequence of dancing on a ball. We lost all of the scenes we needed. I wanted to say Brook dancing at the party, damn it. Um. Yeah, yeah,

how you fill those forty one two minutes is very important. Yeah, because if we if we've done a better job at telling the story about a young girl who's trying to juggle her social life, her work responsibilities, her class presidency, her her DW dot I initiative, like living in a

new house. Yeah, that would have been cool, but but we like we kind of cheated and we fast forwarded through some things that would have been I think meaningful to see talking about meaningful things, yes, and seeing Karen panic that, like, oh no, Brooke is going to become another one of me, you know, under my roof. I promised her parents that I would take care of her. Instead, she's just like at your door, yelling at you and like, madd at you form on makeup? How that much did

you love the Mark? So mad about it? I'm like, I had to do a commercial for a brand for free and that's rude. And I want to say, Joy is the one that actually did the cover of Mark magazine. Yeah, yeah, yeah I did. I did one with Laala Anthony when it first came out at MTV, and then Joy I'm

pretty sure did a cover for Mark magazine. But they had her out on the road and they're like, well, we'll have Brooke have like a huge treasure trove of Mark Cosmos all this makeup, which, by the way, doesn't make any sense because she says to Karen in one scene like, oh, I spent the money you gave me. And then she's like, look all the stuff I bought and it's like, well, where'd you get the money for that? Yeah? That felt weird that it was me. It was the

first subscription makeup. Like, remember it was like mary Kay, but for you it was mary Kay, but for young people was mary Kay. And so it was essentially like all these sites that we order from now it's time travel. I will say though, I did love what Moira and I got to do the way that she explained, you know, chores and things and getting to play a little bit of the the genuine confusion of like, well, what do you mean so I pick one? Like how do I

pick one? How does it work? Ma'am? And there was like a it was sweet for me to look back and go, ah, I I chose to play that with her in a way that was tender and earnest rather than like bitchy and affected exactly, And I really I loved it. I was like, oh, I had some good instincts going in this episode did because it could have

been another example of females being written as you know, intolerable. Really, there's so many those like intolerable and titled like yeah, there's so many things in this script where I'm just like, where was the girl in the room to guide this? But thankfully we had people on set that could guide things, you being one of them. Um. I struggled a lot, like if we're taking screen time away from storylines to have the butts and the boobs, Jake doing the whole

custody thing with his daughter without a parent. Presently the lawyer is going to meet with us seventeen sixteen, seventeen year old kid without a parent. And again these two beautiful storylines, Anna and Darby, Anna coming out to her parents and then Jake and and his um being caught truly in a rock between a rock and a hard place. You know, it's so easy when we think about, you know, the law and issues to go, well, there's a right and wrong, and this is very black and white. Life

is gray, it's muddy, it's mixed. And Jake doesn't have a good option. He has a bad option and a really bad option, and Brian played it so beautifully and I just thought, there I was like, why aren't we spending more time here with this and and why didn't we you know, hire at least one one actor to play one of his parents. We didn't even need both your right, weird? His mom or his dad could have been there, or maybe he had two dads, Like I

don't know, one parent of any kind could have been there. Well, and you know, Brian took a story that was so mustache twirling. You know, Nicki has been written so one note. It's just like this conniving you know, basically like girl Dan just like awful, awful, awful, um very little nuanced to that character. And she makes it interesting and she does a good job and she's like, that is my daughter, and you know what, she is entitled to know her daughter.

This story that Greenberg has to tell is like so bad. Where he's talking about Nikki falling asleep in the car and baby Jenny in the back with no blanket, shivering,

they're sitting outside the bar. You know, it's horrible, and it was just so horrible that it all sow made me feel like like whoever crafted this episode hates women, Like there's just so much stuff in here that the woman is either the one yelling or angry or freaking up, or there's just so much misogyny, just so easily sprinkled throughout this episode that I don't know, I don't know

I had. I really struggled with the reality of that story, because it would be bad enough if she just, like, you know, let Jenny be in a dirty diaper for a really long time, you know what I mean. But they always had to turn it up to like crazy, and it made me wonder, like, is that how they think women are? Well, you know what I think is interesting too, you saying that, like, because we talk a lot about how when you make television, you know, of

any kind, like you need drama. Of course means something for characters to go through. But some times I think that that requirement for heightened reality can make us a little desensitized to how problematic, average quote average things can be. Like you saying, what if she had left Jenny in a dirty diaper all night? And you know, if someone had suggested that there was a writer saying, well, that's not a big enough deal, and it is, you know,

neglect is a big deal. And I am very curious about why there is a tendency in so much storytelling, to need, the neglect, the failure, the whatever, the problem is, to always be you know, a ten out of ten, an eleven out of ten. It they take it so far that weirdly, I'm in this moment wondering if it makes us almost less sensitive to the smaller aggressions or

issues that people go through. Well, So listen, if you're watching a TV show and the bad and the Bad Guy, I'm saying that in quotes, does something that's not turned up to eleven, maybe it's a four or five, and it's something that you've done in your life, it's going to affect the way you watch that show or how you feel about that character. And so I personally, in watching things, appreciate when the aggressions are microaggressions because it's like way more relatable to my life. And so I

like that. It's like, you know, well, you can't divest from it. You can't go oh, I would never. I would never, never, Dad, Look, I would never um park a card outside of a bar and sleep with my kid in the middle of winter, you know, with the frost on the windows. Right, But when I watch certain TV shows or like somebody raises their voice with their children and it's traumatic. Then you as a parent have to be like, oh god, have I have I been scary?

Have I raised? And of course I've raised my voice, But but it affects me more to see how it plays out on screen. I think Nikki's just Emmanuel is such a good actress and she's done what she could do with this writing where Nikki is just bad news. And I would have preferred if, like she was working a shift somewhere and fell asleep in the car with Jenny, Like if she had like a if she had a thing, if she was studying, you know, she's in college or

was in college. But if there was something that wasn't just so evil, you know, women, not every woman is evil. Taylor's seducing Nathan, Nikki's trying to kidnap Jenny. You know, it just all feels kind of man man not my favorite, Yeah it is. It's really just so dialed up. We also talked about how we had so many young writers too, and so you know, we we really grew to love our writers as we got to know them, and a

lot of them mean male writers. But when you're young, you just kind of have to do whatever is on the board because you're trying to keep your job, you're trying to secure more episodes in the future. It almost felt like hunger games in the writing room on our show, because everyone was jockeying for the credit. You know. I mean, I'll never forget one of one of the writers that I think you're referring to, Um who I won't mention by name, just until I catch up with him and

then see if he cares if I say. But I remember, you know, sitting all the way flash forward to season eight, when you know, we thought we were wrapping the show, before we knew we were going to come back for the final thirteen of nine, and I remember sitting at a you know, bar top having dinner with two of the guys who'd been writing on our show from the beginning, who started out you know, basically like as grunts in

the writing room. And they shared with me some stories that I didn't know, and they talked about, you know, things they had heard about UM in l a like starting in season one, you know, like when creepy he who we do not speak of on our show, UM who was inappropriate with so many people but was real inappropriate with me, Like real handsy and it got kind of physical. I just like had a knee jerk reaction and I hit him like hard. Um. What I didn't know is that he went back to the writer's room.

I'm like himming and hawing and screaming. Um. I think the phrase that sticks out to me, and I quote, was who does that entitle little bitch thing she is? One of the guys said, I don't know, maybe you just think she's entitled to not get her ask grabbed by her boss like yes, trying to break the tension in the room, and then was summarily told, you know,

do you like having a job here? And it turned into a big fight, and they talked about how they all learned really quickly that defending us could mean they got fired, and they were scared. And I'm sure there are people who will say, well, they should have done it anyway, But you know, it's not black and white. It's really hard. I compared to living in a haunted house. So people like, how do you live in a haunted

house in North Carolina for so long? And it's like it doesn't happen every day exactly right, It happens like once every three months, and it's like, WHOA, that was scary, and then it goes back to normal. And that's how it is when you're working in a toxic environment, is that it's okay. Sometimes some days are okay, some days are beautiful, and some days are really terrible. It's I think it. It mirrors toxic working environments, really mirror abusive

relationships there. There is often love there, at least for person. And and it's the cycle. It's the roller coaster. You never know when it's coming. And so what I appreciated, you know, to circle back to the story I started

to tell. What I appreciated about that conversation is I got to hear from these men who were our friends, who did become really good defenders of ours as they got more solid in their footing, share with me about the things they had loved about our job and about working together, and the things they carried shame about saying, you know, I remember this and it has been burned into my brain and I think about it a lot, and I'm really sorry I didn't have better tools then,

and I just want you to know I think about it and it was so meaningful to me, and it's it's through that lens, like we were talking earlier about the nuance right like the good and the bad, and you have to be willing to be honest about all of it. It's through that lens of accepting that more than one thing can be true at the same time that I feel like I can look back and go, yeah, I get it. There's things I wish I'd done differently, and there's things I'm really proud of that I did,

and it's all jumbled together. But I think that the more sort of tolerant we can become of each other, and the more vulnerable we can be about I definitely wish we could go back and change would be incredible because then we can we can certainly at least use the lessons to change the course of the future. This episod so it is, there's so much good stuff in it. I wonder like what it would have looked like if Moira directed it? Do you know what I mean? Yeah,

the glimmers are there. What would it have looked like if a woman had put these pieces together? Because Chad stuff is good in this episode, like his stuff with you is like light and funny, stuff Anna is lovely, and then his stuff with Dan is all like, wa, maybe that's why Dance such a good character in our show, because that's who was really pulling the strings, Like that's the character they could connect with the most. Maybe Yeah,

that's I actually really like that theory. I Also it was funny because watching the Lucas and Dan dynamic, I'm sitting there going, wait, like when did it turn there suddenly at odds Dan suspects look at like it's a sudden shift. But I I want to know more. I want to know what's going to happen. But now they're they're using all these weird literary metaphors about him. I'm like, what's wait? I thought that I thought Dan loved having him there. I don't know. I don't know what's happening,

but I need to know more. Well, once the Keith secret is out right, that's what Lucas was kind of protecting. I suppose. Um he makes the comment to Dan at some point where he's like, I'm just here so I can get my medication, Like that's the only reason I'm You're paying for my meds and I need them to stay alive. Yeah, and then you're right, like all the very exposition e like book references like I didn't know you were a fan of Arthur Conan Doyle. He's like, well,

Moriarty's the villain. That's one interpretation. I was like, what's happening. Yeah, yeah, someone had just read that book and was like, guys, we use this. But then you know, there's there's this incredibly sweet element and it and it connects through from the last episode where Lucas has made it clear to other people that he has feelings for Brooke, but he's not putting it on her, which I think is another

really important thing to have a boy model. And when he's laughing about you know, her cleaning the floor with a sponge and he says, you know, Broke, this is a mop. He says that he will split the chores with her, and she says, you would do that for me? And he says, anything for you. And it's this moment where he's confessing his feelings but not kind of running her over with them, and it's the first time you see her register it, like wait what, and it's it's generous.

He's done all these generous things to help her, given her his room, and you know he's showing up to make sure she's okay. He's the one who says, Karen cares about you enough to ground you. Yeah, these are all lessons for her. It's nice to see the similarities between what Luke is doing for Brooke and then what Andy is doing for Karen and Lucas, because the second Lucas finds stuff, he trusts this new boyfriend of his mom enough to go and be like, what are we

going to do? And he's like, I gotta I gotta do this, and Andy's like, no, we gotta do this. And that's not necessarily a gift to Lucas, that's a gift to Lucas's mom. It's like, I'm going to handle your for you so you don't even have to think about it. And so then for Lucas to turn around and do it with Brooke, that's what you do. You

help people carry their bags. That's love. It's really it's really refreshed, Shang and it interestingly, as much as I hated, you know, the villainous vixen on steroids thing that they always did to Taylor, Um, Lindsay McKeon is so damn charming. She's good man. Her words your words like real, more

real things to do. But I I will say that as much as I hated, you know, the gaze of the dynamic that she was asked to play, I really did like the simplicity of that moment for Nathan when he says I can't do this, and she says because of Haley, and he says no because of me, and and Nathan is saying or he doesn't say no, but he says because of me. He doesn't want to be that guy. He doesn't want to fall back on his old validation tricks, which is very much what Brooks gone

through too. I don't just want to be validated by what I used to use to validate myself. It's a cool thing in a yucky storyline. It's a cool moment to have a guy say no, I want to be a better man. And both of these brothers, in their own way are trying to learn to be better men. Yeah. I liked seeing James blow off steam. I mean that was that was fun um. But yeah, I I don't

know that whole bit was just like weird. She did such a good job with what she had because the whole thing of like, you know you you haven't been labeled yet, and I have, and so I'm just gonna double down and I'm going to commit to the thing that I am. I'm a party. Um, but you're not there yet, kiddo. Yeah, you have a chance. A wish it had come more from her as the older person than Nathan rejecting her. Do you know what I mean?

It was like it was like they're going for it together and then he rejects her because she's the sultry vixen and her comeback is, well, I wasn't gonna kiss you anyway. Yeah, it's all male. But it's all male fantasy. It's what you were saying. It's like it's the it's the gross older guy with the pen. It's his dream of how available a hot girl would be to him,

and it's just like, not not real. I would have loved instead is if they'd gone upstairs and she had just put on like a kettle and like made him tea or you know, like I had been like, Okay, you've had your fun, do you feel better? Okay, now here's what's going to happen, And instead it just got taken right to the edge there when it even what was going on was crossing a boundary. You know, I certainly don't want to think. O, look, can you imagine that real life? Just like no, no, no, it's a

it is a hard pass. But Taylor coming down the next day and encouraging him to pick I wish that conversation happened the night before. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say. Yes, I agree, And again credit to her, Lindsey delivered so much under it. She she personalized that idea of humans who self sabotage sometimes when when when human beings feel like they are beyond redemption, sometimes they go even further towards that which has hurt them. And and I thought she did all of this great work

to give more quality to those words. But I do I agree with you. I would have loved if when they got upstairs and he was like coming up after her, thinking it was going to be a thing, she walked into the room and turned around with just like a blank face, like all right, cut the did you have fun flirting with my friends? Did you have fun dancing on the bar? What's really going on? Like, yeah, if you're behaving this way, you're in pain. Let's talk about it.

It would have been so unexpected, it would have been a cooler turn right, as opposed to the pushed up against the wall, heavy breathing Oh oh, Lindsay, she's so good man. She knows how to make that work. And again, we we weren't in positions back then to really like push back against too much. You get hired to play the hot girl. You gotta play the hot girl. You

know that's your gig. Now we know that's smartest hot and and boss he's hot, right right, Yeah, that's why when like Twitter first came out, I started that smartest sexy hashtag, I'm like hard, I sure did. I'm like, you know what's hot? Being smart? Your brain is hot. The rest of it is like window dressing. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. And that's what I think about that. The end of the episode Parents, is there anything that we missed? Dan's bag of money hold on?

Oh yeah, Dan's creepy money laundering, whatever that is. I loved Anna taking Darby's advice and practicing her speech in her mirror and the way they did that reveal shot that she was no longer in front of the mirror, but she was in front of her parents and you just saw them blurry in the mirror. I thought that was a beautiful directing choice. That's like, that's cool camera work. Something that really also stood out to me that I

found myself so surprised by. And I know this is like splitting hairs, but you know, I love words, She says, Mom, Dad, you know I love you, but there's something I have to tell you. And I was like why, but why? Oh my god, what a what a thing to specifically choose, because so many people, especially in two thousand five, thoughts I love you, but I'm going to tell you something about myself and you might not love me anymore. It

broke my heart. Yeah, like if my eventual kid kids ever had to say to me, Mom, this is this thing about my identity. I don't want there to be a butt in that sentence. I don't want them to feel that pressure. The assumption is I'm going to say something that ruins that love. Yeah, instead of I love you and I have something I want to tell you. I love you, and there's something I've been keeping from you because I'm scared the I love you, but I can't I wrote but in huge letters in my notes.

It just it. I don't know it killed me. I wish we'd got to keep her after this, Like, No, that's what killed me, is I was like, we we made all this progress, she went through the whole journey. Yeah,

and now she's going back to boarding school. I know how important it would it have been for like teens that really connected with Anna to half or there to have her there, To have her out at Tree Hill High, to have her, you know, fall in love, to to have somebody at school be to her about her identity and one of us punch him in the nose, Like it would have been great too to have had her there. Yeah, she's worth more than just the journey of getting there. Like,

let's see the rest of it. Um, maybe if she put on leather pants and done a coyote ugly dance, you gotta kept her. That's what we're gonna do for our fortieth birthday this summer, is we are gonna dance on a freaking boar in little tiny baby pants and in really tight, like painted on leather pants. Are those bars still open in New York? I don't know, but let's go find one. It was a moment. I bet they'd let us do it at our old haunts if we just asked, can we climb on here? You mind?

If we just get up on this bar, I'll clorox wipe the bottom of my boots. Room all right? Do we have fan questions? We sure do? Okay, Um, well this is funny. Letitia wants to know if we got a tattoo together to celebrate our days in Wilmington, what would it be? We've decided where where it won't be stay up, so it's no that that piece of skin remains like my day I was born and it will always be sweet and pale and tender baby flesh. Um, what would it be? I mean, we've been talking a

lot about this is it? Are we getting a raven? Are we getting a crown? Are we getting Roman numerals? Are we We don't know yet. Guys, we want to know what tattoos y'all are getting. Can you send us some art please? I love seeing those cos it's so nice. Someone comes up and they've got like people always leave on their arm and I'm like, oh baby, but we're

right here, but we're back here. Somebody sent rom the other day of um like this is this is the place like right here, like under their under under their collar bone that I thought was very pretty interesting. I like it. I like a like a long slender shoulder here. I know one of my guy friends has a tattoo that starts under his ear and comes down to whatever muscle this is and then goes down onto the shoulder bone,

and it is so pretty. All I think about though now, because all my tattoos are white, because I never wanted to have have to get them covered at work, and then I got this stupid one on my arm in black. I mean, I love it, it's beautiful, but the time I have to spend in the hair and makeup chair every morning, I'm like, it wasn't worth it. It just wasn't worth it. So now anytime I think about where I might want a tattoo, I think how exposed is it and how often will I have to add an

hour to my morning to get it covered. You gotta put it in places where if you ever get asked to do a nude scene in the future, you're like, oh man, I'm so sorry I got all these tattoos. I can't, I can't. You should probably just get a body double. Um. I just recently got this huge tattoo on my hip I didn't know it was gonna be that big it is. Um it was from my friend's sporty the third day. So those that's there now, Um, I got one hip left for us and then were

the kind of girls to get like thigh tattoos. Now I think they're kind of sexy. I do too, you know what, I really do think we need to make some temporary ones and just stick them all over us and figure out where we like them. Try some things out. Yeah, yeah, all right, Well you guys send us some ideas. We'll get it turned into temporary tattoos. We'll try some things out. Maybe we'll even get you guys some If you want some temporary tattoos. Maybe we should just make them. I

think we ought to. I think we ought to. Alright, Letitia, what else do we have? Michelle wants to know what's your favorite thing about Peyton, Brooke and Haley's friendship and what's your favorite thing about your friendship between you all in real life? M hmmm. I like that we all give each other's space to be good at different stuff, do you know what I mean? Like Peyton, Brooke and Haley all did that, and and I think that we do that in real life. Like, look, all three of

us like to sing, but we know Joy's the real singer. Yeah, that's her, that's her thing. We all are super involved in advocacy, but like you're the senator, like that's your thing. I'm the farmer, you know, like we all everyone has bees, but I'm the one that's like really dirty. You know, you have like a full blown farm. So we give each other space and don't like step on each other

with these passions because identity is something that's sacred. Yeah, And you know what I think is is special too, is knowing we all have a lot of overlapping loves. Each of us who is kind of the expert at whatever we're expert at, supports the others in coming towards our thing. Like, I've seen a lot of friendships, and I think especially among younger women, because society teaches us that we are each other's competition, which is so dumb.

Like that's the ultimate misogynistic trick is to keep women fighting so we don't pay attention and kick these guys asses. Um uh. I've seen female friendships get really tense when it's like, no, that's my thing, You're competitorial. And one of the things I love so much about all of us is that it's like, oh, you want to try this thing I love, Come here, let me tell you how I did it. Let me tell you what works, let me tell you what to feedure bees, let me

tell you what it's It's very inclusive and welcoming. And I think that, you know, our our characters did versions of that on screen as well, and I think it's probably the reason why so many people talk about how they want friendships like Brooke and Peyton and Hayley's and and I just think, like, oh, man, so much better in real life. We're not kissing the same dudes, and real god, we sure did dodge that bullet. I mean, at least I think we did. Yeah, we know what.

You know what. I also will say that I really like because we're, you know, honest blood ladies. I like that we all really big up each other's husbands too. Yes, it's it's really sweet and like, guys, we like, we really go in on it. Like I'll send you guys a photo and you guys are like, Grant looks hot, and like you guys posted your thing about your about the Booze launched, and I was like, Hillary, Jeff looks

freaking hot. Like we we go so hard for each other that now we like go really hard for each other's partners. Yeah, you have to be with the three of us. You can't be with one of us. You know. It's like we're a package deal. And I love that it. It isn't just like, oh he's being sweeter or oh he did that nice thing for you. Like we're you know, we like, we like what we like, we like what we like. I'm trying to think about what the word is. I'm like, it's not like we we don't flirt with it,

that's not it. But we we cheerlead all the things, including like yes, you you nailed it, the children, making any sense, like can't find the words right, No, it makes total sense because you know your spouse always um is more supportive when they feel included. And we've been in relationships in the past where our partners either haven't felt included or felt slighted, and it makes jealous. Yeah,

they're jealous of the time and stuff like that. And so I think we all make an effort to love on each other's special people, whether it's kids or spouses or best friends or whatever, so that it's inclusive. So to answer Michelle's question, you know, collaboration over competitiveness and inclusivity are I think the most important parts of our friendships. Just love up on your people's people. It makes everything play nice in the sand box. Yeah. I like that.

I like that a lot. We have one last question, Leah, the last o t h CO star you texted besides the three of you? I mean, I did that this morning. Minds Brian Greenberg. I was on the phone with him yesterday. I texted you and Danille and Joy this morning. Yeah we have Daniel. Yeah, squad, we we just we love our people. We're pretty lucky. Baby. You want to spend a wheel? I really want to spend a wheel. Let's go. Ok,

let's do it. Let's do it. You know what, Hey, I'm proud of you because this episode was a real stinker for me, and you helped me see the bright side. Thank you. I love that all right? Are most likely to scream at a spider? Scream as a spider? I mean in real life? I don't know, I don't I don't know. I mean all the chicks on our show were like dames. You know it was really a flower. There was just like a giant black widow in my garage and one of my friends was over here like,

oh my god. I was like, let me just go get a board. I'll kill it. I'm gonna get a cup and a piece of paper, and I mean, I smashed the poisonous ones, but yeah, I don't. I've got a collection of their little corpses. Um. You know who I would love to see have the like at a spider scene on our show would be Skills. I think Antoine would make that so funny. He's good at that

physical comedy. Like if Skills were afraid of spiders, it would be completely unexpected and hilarious and he would ad lib something great and it would just Yeah, it would be a very hilarious scene. Do we think Antoine scared of Spider's in real life? Probably not. He's so chill, he'd be like whatever, there's no sissies on Tree Hill. Friends, We're having toughest nails. What's our next episode, babe? We're getting close to the end of season two, the nineteen

coming up. It is I'm wide awake, it's morning. Do we think it's going to get better. Do we think it's going to be like I want the haleyback. I will say we've had these sort of cyclical moments where when we have a show that really creeps us out, often the next one is pretty good, Like, so I'm hoping that that's the way this is going to go. I can't wait. Eighteen was just kind of a slightly unfortunate blip on the radar. Well, we found the silver linings.

My sweet sister who doesn't know how to mop um loves a sponge, loves a sponge. You guys are the best we will We'll see you next week. I'll see you next week. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O t H or email us at Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama.

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