Smoke and Mirrors • EP211

originally aired January two thousand five. This episode put me and all my feels you guys. Hayy is surprised when her older sister Taylor comes to town, but not as shocked as Nathan, who recognizes Taylor from his past. Meanwhile, Brooke and Felix decide to become boyfriend and girlfriend. God, she's so sad about it. While Jake surprises Peyton when he shows up in Tree Hill, and Anna confides a

deep secret to Lucas. Guys, I gotta be honest. We often skipped the recap when we watch episodes together, and I don't know what it was about. This week we ran it and I was watching the recap, and literally I'm sitting there on mute going, oh my god, Jake's back. That's right. Wait FEELI said he'd protect Brooks heart. But

you can tell Sasan want to say yes. Oh, and then Lucas is in the door I forgot and and and Dan is and then there's the reveal of Dan working with actually wrote down all of the recap For some reason, I never think about the recap, but I was like, Okay, here's where we left off. It was a lot of drama. It almost felt like a cliffhanger episode, didn't Yeah, what was the bad? Was this the last episode before the holiday break, because remember we would like

take like a big chunk of time off. I think it must have been, because yea, so much happened leading up to this episode, and then this episode's exhausting, like the list of things that happened to everybody in this everybody's getting some though. You know it's going to be an episode about big feelings because it starts with the sky opening up, like a downpour begins and you're like, oh, everybody's about to have a bad day. When it rains in,

everyone's gonna cry. It's a meda something about where is it? Oh? Yeah, because Jake walks out. Okay, well, first of all, where we left off, we have Keith love Jewels, but she's with Dan. Peyton calls Rick for drugs but take his back exclamation point, exclamation point. Lucas wants Brook but he finds her kissing Felix Halex run, Haley runs off with Chris, and then we have Depth confesses to Karen. So can we start with the most exciting part of all of this,

which is Jake is bad? Guys. I love him with the thunder. It's like the thunder from the storm is was surrounding him and the lightning and flashes on his face and he just stands there staring at you. He says, who the hell are you? He sticks up for Peyton, gets rid of Rick. Yeah. Uh, and you guys have that big embrace. I love a high school boy who will chase off a drug dealer, do you know what I mean? Like that's a grown ass man and this high school kids like I kick your ass, you know,

like that's that's like b D, that's strong man. I'm into it. Yeah, it's it's major. I also love that as if we needed any more proof that Rick is a creep again he goes high school girls. It's like, stop saying that, you sound like a pedophile. I mean, Tree Hill had some rities. I'm sure there was like some underground scene like you. I didn't like it out a Mystery with with Bryan Greenberg and all the episodes, but this one in particular having him back, it was like,

he's so soulful. You know, we've we've talked before, how he's like real life Lucas, right. Yeah, he's so soulful and and thoughtful, and he's perfect to play a grown up single dad at that age. Um. And the way that he sweeps you up in his arms, the way he looks at you and talks to you and takes care of you. Guys. I'm just like, I'm so into end game Peyton and Jake. I'm sorry, I can we

have both. The Like the fan base gets really mad if they seem like if I seem like I'm leaning in one direction or another, or you know, I know because they misdirected me. You know, like I was told the Peyton and Jake were end game, um, and I don't know if that was misdirect on our creator's part or if that's what they thought was going to happen at the time and then they changed their mind later.

I don't know. I was a child, um, but I think I think Peyton deserves to have her cake and eat it too, So why can't they both be end game? You know? I agree? And it was interesting to me, Spicy. You know, listen that that movie Sliding Doors was great. I think this is the sliding Doors and trills, But

I did, friends, I did love that movie. I loved that movie, and I do think it's really interesting because you know, we've talked about this a little bit, but we all put things together far down the line and the experience of making this show together, and after the show went off the air, realizing that, like we all got told different things, oh yeah about where he was endgame? Who was what? Like they told each of us we were endgame with different people. None of us knew what

was really coming. But I gotta say, of all the misdirect that the writers gave to us as performers, the one I'm actually the saddest about is the Peyton and Jake misdirection. George Clooney, it's all his fault. He took Jake from US Brian Greenberg was a really good friend in real life, and so any time I went to l A, He's the person who would like pick me up from my shity hotel and make sure that like

we were doing something cool. And so that energy, that kind of like I'm going to take care of you energy made performing together really easy because I had a natural trust with him, um and and we were friends, which we know is the basis of the best relationships. UM. So that buddy energy is strong. But Peyton and Jake get to turn it up to eleven. Yeah, you know something I really loved. I loved and it becomes a device throughout the episode. There's with every group of characters,

there are these pacts about keeping each other's secrets. There's an energy of let's lean into trust and if you protect me, I'll protect you. There's a lot of vulnerability in this episode, and one of the things I really loved is that as the script was written and as it was directed, they used these misdirects of imagination and dreams to show how vulnerable people were feeling. And the the m direct of Peyton falling asleep and thinking she dreamt that Jake showed up and then he's in her

room just watching over her. I loved it so much. And then there's the misdirect of Haley on the box, and then I was like, she doesn't have a tooth brush, what is she doing? Where's she going? And then you realize, God, yes, and then you realized she thought about getting on the bus but didn't. And even the it wasn't it wasn't a dream, but the misdirect for Lucas of coming to tell Brooke and open up to tell her about his

feelings and then she's with Felix. But you see how sad Brooke is about it, Like these mis directs and these these sort of bubbling moments of potential. I loved as a device around everybody's secrets. I like how all the different kind of like romantic entanglements represent different things too. I mean, obviously, like the Felix Brook thing is a physical relate Sian ship. It is a you know, there's even like a financial element to it that is a

power play. Then the the Jake Peyton thing is very much like we're buddies, Like I tell you my hard stuff and like you help me, And and then the Haley um, I'm calling him Tyler Chris Keller's but that that sexual tension and that weirdness is so like talent based and artistic connection, which is a very intense connection, especially when you're young. You know, these are three very

different relationships and they're all going to pan out differently. Um, but I've had all three of those relationships in my life, and I think it's same the I think the person you land on should probably be a mix of all three, right, Yeah, one can hope. One of the things I love too is watching the relationships change as people feel more secure, like or insecure. True, Like you you see um Nathan and Haley having a rift and being pulled apart by

this energy. You see Peyton and Jake leaning into their safety and security and into the platonic nature of their relationship, not that it isn't charged with romantic feeling, just that they haven't crossed that line yet. And one of the things I loved in the mirroring of that, like with Hillary, with you saying to Greenberg, will you just stay here just to sleep? I like to see like, oh, it's

like broke my heart. But I loved seeing by the end of the episode when Brooks stands up for herself with Felix and says, I don't like that you're doing this. I know you probably don't mean anything by it, but I don't want to be my mother and and he says, well, just stay. You know, I don't want to go home. Everything's hard for me, but I don't want what exists in my house. And he says stay tonight, and she says, no, I'm not in the mood. And he says stay anyway,

and he offers her just sleep here with Yeah. That was such a powerful thing to just be held by someone. Oh my god, I love I just loved it. Well that's the line at the end of Waitress, you know, where she's talking to her baby and she's like, dear baby, I hope that you meet someone who just holds you for thirty minutes straight and doesn't try to kiss you

or excuse me that. That was always kind of my favorite part of relationships when I was younger, is that very tender space between crossing that boundary, like getting to know someone enough to trust them that you could sleep next to them, and then crossing that boundary. And I would make that last as long as humanly possible. Yes, stretches, don't todge me, don't touch me. Gosh, I've definitely done that. Like, just come over and just be here. I don't We

don't need to do anything. It doesn't have to be sexual. Just the comfort of having you hold me or be next to me, or feeling like that warm body that of someone that you love and a heart that you are connected to. It's so powerful and I think there's something really beautiful about allowing room for that because physical intimacy also has the capacity to be a distraction. Oh yeah, it's really easy to not talk to someone or get to know them if you're making out of them the

whole time you're in a room. It's Pandora's box because the second you start that. Yes, how many of us a state in relationships way longer than we should have because the physical yeah you know what I mean. Or think about when you were younger and maybe you maybe you allowed something to turn into a relationship that outlasted what it should have because you felt like that's what being physical with someone meant. Oh yeah, that I have

to be your girlfriend, dude. I just wanted to kiss for like ten minutes, and now you turn it into a thing. Just make up. You're ruined it. You're ruined it. So there's so much like chomping into bed on our show, so so so so much so there is something that is very pleasing to me that Peyton, that Hillary Burton, the twenty you know, two year older. How old are

we when we're doing this. Um was finally getting her way, Like, you know, I could have relationship with the dude where it doesn't involve you know, sucking face, bry the round on each other and he can just be nice. Lucas actually makes it, says a quote in this episode. It's a Tennessee Williams quote. I wish I had written it down, but it was something about lonely how basically the idea is if every if there are so many lonely people in the world, it would be um unimaginably selfish to

be lonely alone. Oh yeah, it really got me. Well what I loved about it again? All these characters there's something about to me. Really good writing creates these circles that connect and you don't see them coming. And that quote at the beginning, right is the rain is starting and everyone is feeling like raw nerves emotionally does that full circle moment in the end when he's the only

one who knows Anna's secret. She trusts him to hold her secret and he looks at her in that beautiful slow most sequence on the quad God, I wish we had more of those on our show. And he says, are you feeling left out? And she nods and he says, you want to feel left out together? And they link arms and they walk off, and it's it's it's a a teenager's way to reference to another teenager that Tennessee

Williams quote, let's be let's be lonely together. My heart is something that has been actually really um has created a monumental shift in my life when I really started understanding that the key when I feel lonely, the key is not for me to go deeper inside and feel lonelier. The key is to reach out and not ask, not that necessarily call people and say, Hey, I feel lonely. Can we hang out? Which sometimes I just do because you know what, we all just need about it like that.

That's how we started. At the beginning of the pandemic. It was like, I know, but I really miss you guys. I'm scared. Overall, I'm generally too unfortunately too proud to tell people that I actually need help. But what does um make a difference for me is just checking in. Like if I just stopped thinking so much about myself and my loneliness and my wallowing and my own and just start checking in with my friends. Hey, how are you?

What's going on with you? I'm so encouraged. I'm either encouraged by the positive things that are happening in my friend's life, or I feel comforted knowing that someone else may be going through something similar to me and we can do it together. You knows. It's the key. It truly is the key to getting out of loneliness. It's shifting the focus that joy. I agree with you, because I tend to go like into a rabbit hole in my own head and to claw your way out you

have to reach for someone else. And so especially in the last two years, I've had so many times where I'm I'm like, oh, I should call and check on someone. So I just stopped being self loathing that like myself less, I reach out and try to help somebody else. Yeah, I could hate myself later, but right now, I got

to make a phone call. It's the key. But you know what it makes me think about too, And it's something I really cherish, not only about our friendships in our lives and offline, but about the things we're willing to do when we show up together online or in

pub like or on this podcast. I have learned at our conventions and through our socials and all these things that our willingness as women to talk about that kind of loneliness, self loathing, the human experience of sadness has also offered I think in the way our show did to our community. Our fans will say, oh, well, if you guys are going through this, then I'm not weird. Nothing is wrong with me if I'm going through it too.

And and I think there's something so beautiful about being a little vulnerable about your experience because your brain tells you people are going to go that's a lot and lean out. But when you're when you're open, everybody goes, oh you too, and they lean in and what a gift. Yeah, yeah, we gotta break that barrier. There's so there's just everybody is looking at somebody else, going, man, they really have their life together, They've really actually this is a quote

that Anna yes, oh shoot, it's in the next episode. Guys, I'm gonna say it anyway, and we can talk about it in the next episode. But she says, she and Lucas are walking, uh down by the river court not river court, um, the river the waterfront where yeah, the river Um. She says, look at all these people. They figured out what they want and they managed to find it. And it's such a perfect myth. This this we all

think that. We all look around and we're like, look at all these people who figured out what they want, they managed to get it, and it's a lot everyone is searching for something. As the next episode of our podcast called a perfect myth, because I like it. Perfect myth it is because everybody falls into the trap. And now we've got social media backing us up because everybody gets to post the highlights of life and it looks

like it's real, the real thing. I mean, even when we had our New York Times think am out um and and it was very exciting and it was like, wow, you know, we had a great morning. But you know what else, I still had to go shovel in my backyard. I'm still dealing with some personal drama with you know so and so and over here, and then I'm dealing with you know, school drama and some medical drama and just in my sweats and I'm tired and I need more.

It was like a three cup day, and you know, it's just and then I'm getting emails like You're the hottest thing ever. Oh my dad look at you, like you're so hot right now, blah blah blah. And I'm like, yeah, let me tell you. Let me just snap a photo of how hot I am right now? Yeah, not not. I guess you feel the hype of anything, but you don't feel the hype. You just feel normal life and everyone else is looking at you perceiving something that's not real.

Hype is other people's perception and it is not your reality totally. I mean, I stall to sit in the school pickup line, y'all. You know, I think I posted Guys, I fell in donkeys that day, like I was just like out never always being all sexy, and I'm just like I should have taken the New York Times and just like posted it in my windshield at least driving into school, so I could be like, guys, looks like

cleaned up cool. Let's talk about other characters on the show in that vein, because I remember when Hailey's sister Taylor was introduced and was so sexual right out of the gates with Nathan, and it was inappropriate because she's older and he's a high school boy and all this stuff, and I God, I don't even know who said it, Joy, it might have been you, but I remember kind of chafing at the whole thing a little bit, and someone within our like female circle was like, that's not a slut.

That's not a whore or a tramp. That's a that's a chick with some sad stuff going on, and all that projection, all that putting on the lotion, all that like fulirting and whatever. You don't know what's going on inside of a of a character like Taylor, and I don't know if we discover it down the road, but um, it's hard to watch as an adult because now you see like a little kid. Now you see like a

little earlything that's just a disaster. One of the things I thought Lindsay McKeon did beautifully with that is she does give you that visceral feeling you're like, why is why are you just like putting your body everywhere, and from your sister's husband, like what are you doing? It's so overt, and and again and again and again. And then when she finally tells her secret to Nathan, which she'll only do, by the way, because she holds a secret over him, she knows she can Lord's sexual experience

over him. So when she opens up to him at the beach house about being such a lost soul that she's had an affair with her college professor, she his marriage is destroyed, her college career is destroyed, everything is ruined, which, by the way, it shouldn't be f y. I yeah, by the way, the professor's fault. But anyway, you you see, you see what her suffering is. And she really she let the veneer of being this stunningly beautiful, sexy woman

down for long enough that it got uncomfortable. And then she cracked another joke about how sexy he was, and I was like, oh my god, watching this as an adult, I hurt for her. I heard for this girl, and I saw what you were talking about him. Smoke and mirrors, man, it's all smoke and mirrors. Oh and oh that's so true. What about that shot at the end when she's in the shower and the steam in the mirror and looking at is a smoke and mirrors. It's like, that's a

perfect metaphor. I love that shot too, It's such a beautiful shot. Oh my gosh. The scene that when she wipes the steam away and she looks at Nathan, you can see her bad habits going, I want that. That'll make me feel better, and you can see the trust and you see how touched he is and scared of being touched by this experience with her. Nathan is and he chooses Haley. You literally see him look his past in the eye and go, no, I used to be that,

and I'm going to move over here. And I love the choice you made joy of being in a cute sweater and an apron. You literally dressed yourself as so opposite to Taylor in that scene. And when Nathan goes over, even though Haley is unaware of what's going on, you can see the the gratitude on your face that he's he's chosen to show up for you in that moment, and it it killed me the triangle happening there, And I thought Lindsey played it really, really well. That got

me too. It really did. The choice like Haley looking like Betty Croker kitchen and Nathan just walking up, how can I help you? Oh man? It was such a gree that's in my notes too. It's such a great arc for Nathan in this episode because why was he hanging out with her anyway? He was spending all day with her, going on the beach like well, I mean, I guess he was kind of doing the same thing that Hayley is doing with Chris in a way, attention exploring.

He was getting his ego fed. He was being reminded that like he's a Hawkeye and he was already feeling a little abandoned by Haley, so he needed some attention. And that was where he always used to go. It was just find a girl, find somebody who thinks some hot and get some attention. Well, let's talk about Lindsay McKean,

because when she came in. Um I mean, first of all, this has nothing to do with Lindsay, but it is I guess a bit of a grievance that I have with um those in charge, and which is that the woman with the exception of Maria Manunos, who is still moderately falls into this category on on some level, but not the same. But we had this every female um guest star, we had this parade of sexy, slutty bad Are you saying there was a hooker with a heart of gold fetish happening on our shock? What is every

single Peyton has slept with everybody? This is the first time she's not like jumping in a situation with somebody. Brooke is a hooker with a heart of gold. Emmanuel with a hooker with you know, like, yeah, that's a fantasy that our our bosses had. It's just so creepy. And then we've got this, you know, then Taylor comes to town and she's kind of like throwing herself around, and you know, then we've got I mean down the line.

You can just keep counting down the line what they did, you know with Danielle's character and even Elizabeth rn wise character. Eventually like it just and and it's just it's exhausting. It was so this I think because this was like, um, the third female guest spot that felt that way. Um, it just I don't know, I just finally hit it, but I was like, God, I'm annoying. I do want to talk about Lindsay because I really like Lindsay a lot as person. I really like her as an actress.

I think she's incredibly underrated. Um I wish we had her on the show today. I didn't because we don't know about that. But she's she's back plenty in this show, so we'll get her back. But Lindsay is a really

thoughtful actress. She's really prepared, and what's so great about working with her is not only is she super prepared, but she's also very in the moment, which, um, I think it's kind of hard to find, especially in the TV, to have somebody who's really knows all their lines, knows the block, he knows how, but also has an ideas and it's capable of changing in a moment depending on what she's getting from the other actor in the scene. She doesn't have everything sort of structured and rigid. She

wasn't afraid. She didn't come in, which is hard to do on a show like our really popular energy that she had to get involved with to come onto our show like we are a Tornado, you know, to walk into this group and and have no I mean as far as we could see, no insecurities, no sort of deferential like who's the who in the hierarchy? And how do I make sure that I don't step in even tones.

She was like, Okay, I hear what you're saying, but I feel like I should go across the room because that's why I want to be over there, because I feel like it creates distance, which is more interesting. And to have a guest star come on a TV show and have the confidence to just speak up, have their ideas and hold their own space as an actor, it's such a relief to be in a scene with an actor like that. And it's funny, I'm realizing because maybe maybe my memory doesn't serve me, but I don't think

I really got to ever act with her. I really feel like most of it was. But it's as you're talking about your experience of watching her do that, the first thought that comes to mind for me is how freeing that would have felt to be reminded by someone because we were in a situation where we were so often told to disavow our power. Oh my god, I would have loved to have been just like rocking with her on set and have her be like, no, you're

not gonna do that. What she really did have cool older sister energy for me during this episode because oh Greenberg had just come back. I was like so pomped. And then they knew each other, like I think she dated one of friends or something, and so we would go out after work, like while you guys were shooting.

I remember going to fire Belly with her in Greenberg and they like I just sat there like the high school kid because they were like talking about parties they'd gone to and like all these people that they knew that I didn't know, these aren't And I felt like such a little goober. And so in real life she was Taylor, you know, like I was so just like she's cool, Like she's part of that scene. I guess

I'll go sit in my haunted house and crochet. But also, by the way, really interested in people, Like she's a curious person, which I find to be incredibly attractive that she would love to she wants to just hear about you and she asks really interesting questions and um, just

a true artist. So I love and I love what she did with Taylor because again it was written as this very two dimensional just show up and stick your tits out and smile and maybe raise an eyebrow here and there and flous villain that we amazing eyebrows um and she brought so much more to it. She brought those levels so that we did understand the damage that it wasn't just some how Ha's family though, because that's been our beef with the girls on the show, is

that the boys have full re formed families. And Sophia, you've said this publicly. You're like, we were what were purses? Little dogs and and so we've met Haley's parents, but we also know she comes to this huge family like okay, how many siblings, how many boys, how many girls? So to see this glimpse into her family now it makes sense that her parents were like, oh, you're so responsible, because we see what the comparison is like, we see what this other energy is and we get the first glimpse,

thanks to Taylor, of where Haley's responsibility comes from. You know, when Nathan's so surprised by her and Taylor is a little offended that Nathan doesn't know anything about her, she says, well, you know it's because Haley blames me for the pressure she puts on herself. I was such a screw up,

that she had to be the perfect kid. And it's the first time that we learn that there's a family dynamic behind Haley's ethics, that it isn't just this girl who's always been this way, that that there might be a pain point underneath, that she might want to not be such a good girl all the time. And that felt exciting to me. Yeah, and that really leads us into Haley and Chris, because that's a huge part of

where that's coming from for her. She's never acted out because there was no space for her to act out. Her parents are probably dealing with so much craziness from Taylor and her whoever else in the family that Haley was like, Okay, I just as long as I can walk the straight line, straight and arrow and keep everybody in place, nobody will be mad at me and I

won't cause grief in anybody's life. Joy, I've seen a compilation of Haley just like punching people and like slapping people, and you hit so many people on our show, and yeah, what the hell you? Europe is a cool woman, Um, and now we know it's because you've got this gangster sister who's just like I bet you guys pulled each other's hair and punched and hit each other like there was no safe back seat in the James no way. That surprised me when when Hayley grab Taylor's ear, He's like, oh, yeah,

that's physical. It felt nice to see people not just standing around talking. Actually, I was glad. I was glad. The ear grab is so delicious. It's like it is it's such a familial gesture and and you see it and you go, yep, I know what that is. I love looking at this the dynamic of the sisters, and especially for all the women in this episode, girls trying to figure out how to be themselves, how to deal with pressure, how how to kind of navigate bumping into

the boxes they've been put in. You know, everyone's kind of hitting the edges, and you see Taylor trigger that for Haley. We learn a little bit about Haley's perfectionism

and the root of it. You see so much of it with Peyton trying to figure out how to come back from this loneliness, how to not fall into messes with Rick, and you see it with Brooke trying to stay away from the edge that feels like it's too much like her parental dynamic, and and I love what Lindsay brings to the episode and what another phenomenal guests are who I feel like we just you know, we

praise her all the time because we're obsessed with her. Daniella, what she does is Anna in that scene with the two of you, Hillary, when she comes in confessing to Peyton that Lucas ended it and she says, I don't know what I'm doing, Peyton, and you say, none of us do, and she says, do you think there's something wrong with me? Baby? Because it's such it's just such a human experience that young women and have cool for

my character. For me, this is definitely one of the most iconic episodes because that kiss gave a lot of people permission two articulate who they were in their teenage years or their early adult years, and so I take that very seriously. Um, there is a part of me, you know, like Peyton is like, it's cool, it's cool.

There's a part of me that wonders if Jake hadn't just come to town, if there had been a vacuum right where Peyton interesting, what would that have been Because that overlap is just so severe and there's no room for any exploration with Anna Um. But if Jake wasn't around, ye would have looked like, I don't know, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I also love the way that you played it in exactly that thing, saying it's cool because you were so immediately giving her safety, and

I agree. I think at the end of the day, you know, we've just been talking about the dynamic that there were a bunch of people who wanted girls to be archetypes of male fantasy on our show, so they weren't really going to let girls have identity with other women in that way. Because yeah, I mean, I wanted that kiss to be hot, and it's it's not like when teenagers kiss for the first time, when grownups kiss for the first time. It's largely r kiss for a living.

That's what we do, and it's it's awkward. Sometimes sometimes you catch an ear or you know, like a jar, you know, but you've got something. Peyton is the perfect person for her to have, you know, made that move because Peyton is for sure the least judgmental character on this whole show. I mean, she is just like welcome, welcomes people with open arms and their mess, I think because she's just acutely aware of her own mess. So she has no judgment for well, unless it's Haley kissing somebody,

and then Peyton's got strong no, But that's different. Judging someone is different than discernment and being aware of what is something that's right and wrong and being say that's right and wrong. Judgment is different than discernment. Yes, that's deep. It is because a lot of people. That's a game a lot of people will play with you. Don't judge me,

don't judge me. It's like, if you're being an ass hat to to borrow Anna's great line, and you know somebody's gotta be able to call you on it doesn't mean they're judging you. It means they have discernment, they're aware that you're being an ass hat, and they're going to say it out loud because somebody's got to be willing to say it. Um. Yeah, And so I always see Paid in that way. She's willing to call a spade a spade. But I never saw her as judgmental

at all, Like, totally the opposite. So it was a perfect it was a perfect safe space for Anna, and I thought you did that really well, thanks, Yeah, I love it, and I and I loved not only that that your initial reaction was, Hey, it's cool. It might not be how I feel, but it's cool. You didn't want her to feel ashamed or threatened. And the last thing that you say to her is absolutely not, don't be afraid to be who you are. But Anna is so closed off because she's so afraid that she's running.

She ran from her last town, she's running from you, and well she doesn't there's no safe space for her to just explore. And that's the thing. It's like, it's so scary when you're a kid, But I actually think that it's the way Peyton reacts to her that enables her to go and be honest with Lucas at the end.

Don't you find that's the case though. It's like, I know I have harbored big secrets in my life, and the work to tell one person, like there's this toxic thing in me, it makes it so much easier to tell the second person, and then the third person, and then you have a community, you know, Like it's finding that right first person is a pretty big first step, but it's you know, it becomes a dominant, so intense. Shame is like it's I think it's like the Achilles

heel for so many of us. And it doesn't even always have to be well founded shame. Sometimes it's just a shame that we've created in our minds because we have what society tells us, our family or whatever we think is right or wrong or whatever. But um, yeah, it's so important to be able to share. But shame is really scary. Yeah, And sometimes I feel like it can be so difficult to confront the thing that you're ashamed of until someone can touch it or hold up

a mirror to you. And and I think for me it was very interesting. I didn't quite remember this episode's dynamic with Brooke and Felix. I remember being so annoying about I was so annoyed that they made us like do a MasterCard commercial kind of all I remembered, But

as that's been seen in the restaurant. But what what hit me and what I'm really thinking about now as you say that Joy is Felix, because of his parents economic privilege, is kind of the one person who can hold up a mirror to Brooke about what she's losing, and he becomes her unlikely confidant in talking about how all my parents are doing is fighting. They're fighting violently, they're breaking things in the house, they're sleeping in separate zones.

This is intense stuff for a child to be going through, and for whatever reason, she doesn't take it to Haley. She doesn't take it to pay and she feels ashamed. But Felix is touching it. It's like he has a

finger in the wound. And I think it's why, for the first time she is able to identify verbally and maybe for the first time emotionally, that she has felt very secure because of money in her family, and now that she feels like everything is falling apart, she doesn't want to seek it out because it would make her a version of herself that she doesn't want to be. And it's only because he's forcing her to confront her shame that she can realize that and try to choose

something else. Well, you know what that made me think of also talk about full circle in this episode, is this that how shame really just increases loneliness because it keeps separating you from people because you don't feel seen, because you won't allow yourself to be seen. Um and the way that the loneliness um also ties in with everybody sort of feeling this sense of being alone and is it because they're holding onto their own secrets they

won't just open up and share. And it's a it's a really interesting, uh, cautionary tale to me watching Brooke and Felix, because here's a girl who is harboring some shame and is feeling lonely and she just opens up to the wrong person. I mean, this guy. I'm sorry. Let me read this Felix quote down. You're with me now, I'm going to take care of you. If I girls don't do it, or guys whoever, whoever you're with, if your partner says that line to you, I've just personally,

I've never heard anything good come from that. It's so um god, it's so creepy. It's so and patronizing. Yeah, you're with me now, I'm going to take care of I've got it. Don't you worry it? Do you think this is what happened? She's just this is who's available to her, and so she's she's getting caught. You know, Lucas is trying to get in there, and I think

that's probably trying Brook. Shame is because like the nice ser Felix is to her, there is a shame in knowing that maybe you're gaming someone a little bit like have you dated someone that you don't necessarily want to be dating, but you're just like this, So but there's shame in that because you know the other shoes is going to drop at some point, right, Like it's not sustainable.

I also think Lucas hurt Brook so badly that you can see it in that scene on the quad where he comes to talk to her, and then you know, Felix comes in at the end and there's he doesn't actually get to tell Broke. Lucas doesn't actually get to tell Brooke how he feels. You can see how painful it is for her to be near him. When Lucas is nice to Brook, it hurts her because it reminds her of what he did in a way, and Felix isn't exactly what she wants, but he's never betrayed her.

And I think it's a very human thing to try to choose something that doesn't feel like it could kill you. Lucas. Yeah, also, Lucas probably feels to Brooke like it's like, you know, with shame, it's hard to admit, uh, something that you're ashamed about to someone who you think maybe is better than you in a way. And with Felix, he's so obviously a screw up in so many ways that admitting the shameful stuff to Felix is safe. It maybe feels safe for less embarrassing. Nothing I can tell you because

you're a train wreck. Um I can tell you anything. I don't know, what do you think about that? And my writer is that, like, I think you're definitely right because there's no stakes, you know. It's like I canna because I really don't give a if you think I'm right or wrong. Right. And with Lucas, it's not that she thinks he's better than her. That's the wrong phrasing. It's just that it matters what Lucas matters to her.

I don't know that Brooke really cares what Felix thinks of her, because she could walk away just as easily to Lucas, and he stepped on it. Yeah, So now she has a broken heart in her hands and someone's being really tender with it, and she's like, this feels nice, but it's her heart is so broken. It's just they're not in the same realms of experience, and I think it is again. I just keep coming back to how

human this episode felt to me. All these people having these really vulnerable human experiences, and I see her just having this human experience of my heart's broken and I have to figure out what to do with it. I can't snap my fingers and make it feel whole. So I'm I'm doing my best. I'm trying my best here. Yeah, what about another who was not who was actively um letting out her shame to someone who's who really matters

is deaf? Yes, it's hard. That's an adult taking the exact same scenario, but actually, you know, trying to own up to her mistake and going to the person that matters the most and and sharing the news that was rough. Yeah, well, I mean and and so if you think about the other side of that, the Karen of it all, she also was kind of juggling two boys the same way that Brooke is, And it's it's I just found doubt

that Keith, who was my person with how being my person? Yeah, definitely slept with like my sort of best friend, Like you know, they haven't put a label on it, but they're you know, she endeavor incredibly close now and they come on, that's that's insult to injury. Dan leaves her for deb and now, yes, oh my god, I didn't either, just flew off, which actually makes so much sense for how intensely Karen reacts to that, given that she never wanted to be with Keith anyway. Right O, man, oh no,

that hurts. It's that's an old wound compounded by a new wound. Because when she calls Andy and here's some chick on the phone, you know, it's God, it's shame, poor Karen. But honestly, like the shame of being cheated on, the shame of like being betrayed, it's not even something you did, but you carry it. And so Karen is carrying that from when she was what seventeen years old, So to feel it again, like the first time she

puts herself out there is mortifying. Well, and the interesting thing is, and Karen is representative of this for so many women. When men behave badly, women are the ones who get branded for it. Women are the ones who get blamed for it, and women are the ones who get asked about it for all eternity instead of the men who did it. And it is so toxic. It's like such a side effect of a toxic patriarchal system. It's like, talk to him about it. I can talk

about this. I don't want to talk about the loser I dated in high school or college, like, leave me out of thish. Karen did ask. Karen did ask. She she was the one that went to Debb and said, did you sleep with Keith? If she didn't want to know it now? But do you really think in any world she thought it actually happened, or do you think she was warning her friend, hey, dance telling lies about you. I don't think she thought in a million years that

would have ever happened. Like if someone came to me and they're like, hey, Hilary Joyce left with so and so, the first thing I would do is run to you and be like, babe, I heard you heard that you was so and so. Isn't that crazy? And you'd be like, yeah, that's crazy, super crazy, Like that's a good girlfriend move that Karen did. True backfired hard. Yeah, I did backfire. Yeah I wish maybe it would have been Yeah, I

guess I guess that's true. That's the only way to keep the storyline going is if she asked the way that she did, sort of meaning that, Yeah, I guess that's it because then at that point, once you lie, then I get why Dad was trying to like clean clean the sleep. But there's a big part of me that's just like why I don't just move on and she was going to known and what what. It's not like she's if she was still if she was dating Keith,

that's a different conversation. But the fact that they're just friends, there is nothing, nothing ever happened. It's kind of none of her business. I don't know. Do you think that assumes that they that Karen and Keith hooked up at some point? Do you think it's like, hey, Keith's getting married. You know, we've both been with him crazy, right, you know, Like I don't know that they've ever really talked about

I don't think so either. I also think, and I think it's very easy to say as viewers that's not appropriate. No one has the right to feel that way. But we're human, and people feel h territorial, they feel loyalty, they feel we have feelings that aren't rational about our relationships, and so Karen doesn't really have a right to be mad about who Keith's sleeping with. But Karen also she does have a right. Yeah, she's got this whole weird

thing with Keith. And it's like I actually sort of loved the messy humanity of it because I was like, her feelings are on display. Yeah, we've got a glimpse of like Irish Moira in that episode where she screamed at Chad, were like, show us, give us more and more and more and more and more, where no one else was on display. Um Peyton's bangs, which I loved so much, breakage um and it was healthy and fine.

The only thing that saved my ass is that Scarlett Johansson had a mullet in this year, Like she intentionally cut a mullet um, and I was just like, yeah, yeah, me too, I'm just copy her. Hillary. No, I'm sorry. But they were like those cute little Sandra d Audrey Hepburn bangs and I thought they were really flattering on your face and very sort of wispy and girlish, and I just loved it. It was so retro. So we're gonna all cut bangs this year. Have we gotten to

that chapter? Every Joy, you just cut bangs. I've been long bangs. We're gonna I loved that. We're gonna get there. Hill you were you were asleep already. The other night I rapped really late. I was on FaceTime with Joy and literally being like, wait, don't go that far back. Okay, okay, okayfully plodded exactly, and then she like twisted them off. I'm gonna do it. Yes, I have this big I have a big cowick here, and I've cut bangs not once,

but twice. Your bangs on the show. Oh yeah, I loved my bangs, but I've also learned the hard way that they require a lot of maintenance when you have a colic on one half of your forehead because I wake up in the morning and this half since like this, and this half goes like this. Yeah. So what I got from a very nice hairdresser that I've worked with, which changed my life. I had hair dresser look at me and go, why do you keep cutting them? I'll just get you a set, and he was like, literally,

just a clipping pair of bangs. I can have them one ever I want, and then they go away. Yeah, Gray over color you want to. Actually, yes, there's a there's a company, a couple of specific companies that do this hill you could definitely get some. I mean, I love your get ourselves banks. We deserve this. That's that's how you know. Any woman is like going through maybe like a transition phase. I've got to cut this hair, and I've got to cut it right now, right now.

But you know what the other thing is. Okay, here's one of the great things about cutting bangs, and not just bangs, but like I found out how to do some layers and all. Because the thing is, if I go to a hairdresser and they do this to me, even if it looked exactly the way it does right now, I'm gonna I'm gonna nitpick. I'm gonna find something wrong with it, and then I'm gonna be mad at them. But if I do it myself, I've got nobody else to go but me. So I can handle being mad

at me. My god, that's that's the title of this episode. I can handle being mad at me. We can all handle our own bang mess. It's other people's mess that is really confusing. I don't confuse me. I can't deal with it. Oh, god, you got. I really did love this episode. I think we I think we've found some really we dug in there and found some good gold in there. Our babes will spin that wheel. Let's spin the most likely do what we got? Oh? Oh, well this is so obvious to me the answer guys, Oh yeah,

somebody read it. Tell us, okay, who is most likely to star in their own reality TV show? Antoine one? Come? Yeah? Right? Yeah? All the Dominoes conventions in Las Vegas and the basketball every week? Yeah? He does, he does. And you know what's so funny? Joy, When you said that, You're like, this is obvious. I was like, I mean, I guess

Taylor James would have been on the Bachelor, right. She feels she feels like the character or like holds to marry a millionaire, you know, like, let's take it one step too. By the way, yeah, those are two answers you guys with our production company, should we just do a TV show about Antoine? Just like, yeah, we needed some some executive can call us right now We've got

the show. Yes, it's well, everybody. Our next episode is a season two episode number twelve called between Order and Randomness, Oh something between order and randomness that sounds like my life every day. UM. We are thank you for joining us, for this scintillating UM conversation and interesting some interesting topics we explored. I could go, I could go for hours longer on this UM if I do say some myself anyway, We love you guys, Thank you so much, mass love you. Hey,

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