Our Favorite Things • EP302

everything about the wardrobe is good. The acting is good, the storylines are good, dialog, hair point the hair. It's so good. I'm loving it. Seasons Okay, this one's episode two. So it's from the Edge of the Deep Green Sea Air Day Dctumber twelve, two five. The synopsis here is that it's the end of Summer party, the famous end of Summer party on the b each Nathan comes home from High Flyers, but he doesn't tell Haley and he

still doesn't know where he stands on their marriage. Lucas makes a convincing statement to Brooke, and Peyton finds out Ellie is using drugs again or still Dan thinks he realizes who left him in the fire. Dan plays detective Um. This is a great episode. Tim is back, Peyton is the worst DJ ever. We have some great stuff with Kevin Kilner. It's great, let's go. I love this episode. I love like people ask all the time, like what's your favorite episode you guys have ever done? And I

never think of this one? Why don't I ever think of this one? Because it was a long time ago. It was just hard. It's impossible to remember all of them. But that's what's so great about watching these shows back is being able to remember. So now we've got some answers for people when it's like it's reconnecting memories and there's so much sense memory in this Yeah, we all we all knew Haley's outfit was coming, and knew the beach bonfire was this big moment. We were so excited

when the episode started. Oh my god, the doors and then I didn't even know I lit the bonfire. Of all the things I remembered about this episode, I was like, wait, it's me I did. It's crazy. It's like we were remembering our favorite things and then genuinely finding all the things we forgot. We had discoveries this episode. First of all, I noticed when like Brooke and Lucas are kissing in the house or in the apartment, and the Hayley walks

in and she's like making all these snide comments. I'm like, oh my god, it's Joy. Like they just decided, They're like, we're just going to script Hayley as joined now and these like zigger friends are just flying off. And it's such good writing for you in this episode because you go from being like, you know, the funny one liner friend to having to do some real heavy lifting with the Nathan, like the deep Nathan talk and like chasing him the entire episode. I think I'm chasing him for

longer than this episode. I think that this keeps going for a while. And it's really hard to watch. Oh yeah, oh my god with Hilary. When you looked at Joy and that scene at the end, you go you can't blame him or whatever you say. I was like, oh god, it hurts to be on the receiving end of that anger. But it's interesting to see and you start to realize it watching the episode, and then you know, you realize you're on the same page as the writers. When Haley

and Lucas literally wind up standing together. They're having a similar experience trying to earn back the love of the people they've hurt. And it's so beautiful to watch the parallels because everyone in a way I was trying to figure out how to reclaim that intimate territory, even Peyton and Ellie. Ellie's trying to get back in and it. God, the episode is just really well done. Kevin Dowling. I loved his shots, loved his transitions. He you know what's great.

Some of my favorite things about good directors is that you don't feel the direction. There's a difference between somebody who's who's maybe new or I guess new or season doesn't really necessarily make a difference. It's more someone who knows how to get out of the way. They're just showing you the story without trying to show off like fancy camera moves or you know, you can the market. One of the marks of a really good director is someone who can do with the fancy stuff without the

audience noticing that it's being done. Yeah, and I felt a lot of that. Well, just the shot from Dan's Dan's fire to Sophiel holding the torch at the beach party was masterful. Yeah, yeah, I thought so too. I really liked it. Yeah, it was a lot of beautiful camera work, but it fits so well, the transitions, the movement. It was in flow, and so even the shots that were fancy didn't jump out at you because you were on the right. The shots are fancy, like a fancy shot.

Um I okay. I want to start talking a little bit about the Peyton and and her dad and Larry relationship. I just loved Kevin Kilner in this episode. I love him more and more every time we see him. And you know, as much as we loved Thomas, you know, we we have the situation that we have and we're I'm so grateful that we got Kevin Kilner because he's such a strong actor. But he also brings this really um what's the word I'm looking for. He brings this

dad ad energy that's like the dad you want. He's protective, he's showing up. He's so loving and engaged, but he doesn't take any and it's it's very grounded. Kevin Kilner built an intimacy with you that really looks like a father and a daughter. It doesn't look like a guy playing a dad. He feels like your dad and you. What I love seeing about you and your scenes with him, Hillary is that because Peyton finally has a real parental figure, you don't have to act like the grown up in

the room. We see Peyton as a teenage girl who is hurt and scared and angsty and breaking. She doesn't know where to put a feelings. It's like, you look so young because you've got a real dad to play off. I hate watching TV shows where parents are just all shucks and super cute see with the kids because it sets up a false expectation. When I see it on TV. Even my kids are watching TV, I'm like, bullsh Yeah,

you know that's not love. Also, when the kids are super disrespectful to their parents, are throwing a fit or having a heart even I wouldn't say Peyton was throwing a fit but having going through a rough moment, but like the parents, and a lot of these shows are like, oh, well, I guess I'll get out of the way and let you have. Like to have a parent that turns around and shows up and says I care enough about you to to acknowledge the fact that you are acting like this,

that you're being disrespectful, that you're misbehaving. You know, I love you, and you have to look at the bigger picture besides just what you see in front of you. Right now, we need parents like that. Yeah, Tantrum is a part of the human experience, whether you're an infant or you're a teenager and you're acting out, or you're an adult and you're still relying on the same coping mechanisms who use as a child, like we all tantrum.

I have been in tantrum in the last week just because I'm like, man, this isn't going my way, um, And it is so important for the people that love you to be able to show up and communicate clearly with you. And Larry's doing that, and even Kilner so quickly earned my respect because he was like a New York guy. He was like a theater actor and he had these chops and just like immediately put me on

my heels and he was like, watch what I can do. However, the thing we all talked about while watching this was I cannot separate him from Greenberg right now, like like it has ruined any Jake crush that I had because I am seeing dad Larry just like, oh no, they're the same person. And the whole time I'm watching Larry reprimand Peyton and be like, don't you dare like question the judgments that we made. You don't know, Ellie, she's a drug addict. She's dangerous. My job is to protect you.

That woman is a threat. All I can do is here Jake talking to sixteen seventeen year old Jenny being like, you don't know what I know about your mother? Do you know what I mean? Like? Yes, And I think Kevin Kilner when we filmed this is very close in age to how Greenberg is now and just the similarities are.

It's wild. And you know, I love that they gave him that moment with you of saying, one day you're going to be a grown up and you're not going to have all the answers either, Because we do, especially when we're young and we don't know yet that our parents are just people trying to figure it out. We lionize them. We assume they know everything. We we looked to them like we did when we were little, like you keep me alive, and then as you get you

keep me alive, you must know everything? And then Wow. And then you know, you get older and you're like, oh, are you as confused as me? And they let you take a baby home from the hospital really sing you realize nobody knows what they're doing. And and I love that in that moment of hurt and anger and confusion for her, he in his own anger and in his own defense of her mother is saying like, you'll be the person who doesn't know the right thing to do someday. Yeah.

I thought that was beautiful. It's kind of the secret to life, I think in a lot of ways, and realizing hitting that moment where you realize, oh, nobody has all the answers. That's that is the thing, is that we're all just trying to figure it out. And yeah, as kids, you look to your parents as these are the people who have and and that has to exist to some degree. There have to be structure and boundaries. You can't just be a free for all for kids.

But to be able to have that realization moment which happens for a lot of us in high school and college and you go, oh, okay, but have you guys experienced that in real life now? Because because I'm living this parallel all universe from when we were on the show.

Remember when we were playing teenagers and we had older women like Jojo and Kelly Jefferson, our makeup artist, and Jane back in wardrobe, and these women who were a little bit older than us telling us like be nice to each other, be a good like sister friend, like show up, you know, Like they were like giving us all this advice. And they were just like, it's not that bad. Y'all are so melodramatic, and they were. They

were telling us. I mean, I remember Jojo telling us like, we're shorter skirts while your legs still look good, you know, And so they're like giving us. She was like, you're gonna want this on film, you know, and showed up, babe. So we had that your mama gave you. We had these They weren't parental figures, but they were certainly people

that we looked to and trusted. Right, I've got all these like girls and like actually just young people in their early twenties right now that I'm working with, and I hear myself saying all the same things. It's just this like constant cycle of Joe Joe is ms and just like you know, on repeat, I wonder, like I wonder what the next cycle is, Like I don't know what the next cycle is. Who are we looking to right now that we're going to be in fifteen twenty years?

I don't know. Is it all the women who just don't care anymore? They just maybe that joy like fingers crossed, like let's just let's go be real. It's funny like when you say who are we looking to? Like I think about women in my life who, yeah, are in that bracket above us, who I'm watching do such interesting

things with their personal brand of leadership. Like I had Kirsten Jilla Brand on the podcast a couple of years ago, and like it's weird to me that I can text the state senator, but like I have questions about things going on in America and I'm like, hey, run, can I ask you something? And she's such a badass and she's just like, well, we could propose a bill, we

could solve it this way, and here's the thing. And and to see this woman who is, you know, a mentor, she's on that cusp like Jojo and all those ladies were of being a mentor and a friend, you know, And I just watched her like lead a state and be a great mom and and lean into serving people.

And then you know, you flip it, like in our own industry and you look at what Rhese Witherspoon is built with her production company, and she was like, yeah, I was arguable, in arguably one of the most successful actresses in the industry and couldn't get jobs that were interesting and everyone was demeaning to women, and so I

just made cool shows about women. And so I love being able to look at those women who are just like ten to fifteen years ahead of us, and they're nailing it, and I'm like, yeah, we're gonna be fine, But they also still don't have the answers you know, like,

well he does. Yeah. It's it's that realization. It's like when you're a little kid, when you're a little like teenager baby, you think you're supposed to have them, and you get really paranoid that you don't, and then you're in your twenties and you're like, but where are they. I'm still looking, and then you hit our age and you're like, oh, oh, I should have listened, Like they're nowhere. They're missed. I think it just breathed. Then it once you hit that point where we're at now, maybe it

just breeds. That's the where it breeds the confidence to go, oh well, then I have nothing to be afraid of. I can just go ask all the questions. I can just go for it in every area instead of so it's that's the natural progression, is that there is so much fear and so many things that we're holding onto when we're young, and once you hit that point where it's like, oh wait, nothing none of that matters. I can just I can just like go for it and do whatever I want and see how it all turns

out okay. And I think that's probably what the next twenty years holds for us. I think one of the greatest AHA moments in my life was when I realized the most empowering thing I could say to anyone, and the thing I love to hear the most from other people is I don't know a lot about that. Will you tell me more? Yeah, that's a sexy thing to say. When somebody's like, I have no idea what the answer is, let's figure it out together, I'm just like, oh my god, glorious.

And I do think you're right. Joy I think that that comes with age. I think it comes with understanding that the fear that you're the only one in the room who doesn't know everything or have it all together is a total myth. And once you realize it's a myth, you're you're free of it. Yeah, because so much of our identity as we're growing up is built around what we wanting other people to like us and wanting to

fit into whatever group it is. It. Yeah, and it's scary to be in a room with people that where you feel like you're the only one who doesn't know what's going on or doesn't and so we will make things up or we you know, we come up with things to make a sound like we know what we're talking about. It is so nice to just be able to say, you know, I just don't know enough about that to to talk about it, but I'm super interested in what you have to say, and you know, I'm

learning as I go. That's super engaging, I think. And I think when we think about being in this moment where we're looking back remembering how we felt and also the teens we were playing, you see it as as a marker of age. You know, there's that scene at the bonfire where Brooke and Lucas are talking and he wants to seem cool and she's saying she's having a great time, but she really just wants him to say, we leave with me, but he doesn't. He's like, you

do you? You know, have a good night, and the letdown on her face is so apparent, and you can see that it's hard for him to say it. And there are two people who aren't willing to admit that they don't know what the other person is feeling, so they're blowing it. They won't just ask because it's too vulnerable. Haley are doing the exact opposite things like Haley's like, no, no, no, I'm gonna tell you exactly what I want. We're going to be together and I'm not going anywhere and I'm

calling my shot. Meanwhile, Brooks like, I don't know. Guess. When I'm watching Haley in this episode, I feel like she really was coming into her confidence because of everything

that she's been through. There's a little bit of that Okay, I took the risk, I took the leap, and now seeing her blossom into that, uh, not just her you know, the snarkiness and her personality or like, you know, she's much more comfortable in her skin, and she's comfortable being able to say like, Okay, I'm going out of a limb, I'm gonna tell you exactly what I'm looking for, which is very different from first season Haley, who was a lot, a lot more scared, a lot, more like kept everything

really close to the vest, and now she's just like hard on her sleeve, going for it. Just kind of cool because I don't know if she would have been able to fight for her marriage in that way if

something had happened before. It's like she needed to go through this experience of putting herself out there on stage and for the world, and now she can do it in her personal life well, and she needed something that was just for her so she could know that it was her as an individual that chose her marriage, not her in partnership choosing a partner. It's Haley the individual choosing Nathan, the individual. She'd always been in partnership before that.

And it's cool because she's like, no, now I know what I want, exactly what I want. I don't even care if it's what you want, it's what I want, And this is where we're going and it's it's it is it's a confidence that's new, and it's it's bold,

and it's sexy and it's so appealing. If this storyline of like Haley and Nathan breaking up had happened in like season six, when we had totally jumped the ark, you would have gone totally like burning bunnies on him, like they turned everything up to eleven in the later seasons. So I love do you know what I mean? Like they would have had talking Nathan and being like, we're gonna be together. So I like subtle but firm Haley. I appreciate season three Haley with her good hair and

awesome outfits and that great bill on the beach. I love it, love that outfit. Okay, why do you think that Nathan can't get over it because he's a dude. Look what what is it about men that has that heart? Because I've been I've you know, I'll be brief, but I've been through a scenario like this before romantically, where you know, I dated someone for a while and I really there were some things that I just really wasn't sure about, some red flags and some stuff, and so

I ended things. And then a couple of weeks later, I was like, listen, you know at this break really isn't working for me. I'm actually super in love with you and I want to figure out how to make this work. And he was like, uh, I just kind of got over you, Like it took me a minute. It was really really really intense, and then I got over you. And now I'm like, not really sure if we can just go. I can't like jump right back in because I finally person. I want to punch this

person to know. I did too, because we spent the next like two years trying to figure out how to be together, and finally it was just like, oh, I give up, but like, well I can't. I can't keep you can like it is now scorched earth, goodbye. Yeah exactly, I know, but you know what I mean. I don't know,

but you want to do anything. They have like a they have this wall, but I think people have people like It's one thing if someone says I'm not sure, I'm scared, I don't want to do this, and then as you're saying you did, comes back and you say, actually, I was scared because I'm so in love with you and I'm still in love with you and I learned something that's a person having an emotional experiences, Like that's how every flow. But there's but there's also the reality

of when someone breaks your trust. Maybe that's emotional trust, but also there's trust trust. And Nathan is sitting here, going, you cheated on me with someone. You kissed another man and then left with him, and like look different. Yeah, it's different. And I know in the world of like cheating, it's tame. It's a kiss. It's not like you know, she went and slept with this person or had a

month's long affair with this person. Granted it may have been an emotional affair, but like, if we're talking about I've been through infidelity, you want to see my scorched earth, Like the door is closed, the drawbridges down, I've put alligators in the mode, and I will kill you if you come close to me, Like it's just like a bye, it's by alligators in your Oh yeah, alligators in the moment. I'm just like, I'm like, try coming to the castle. I'll kill you. So look, could I get over it?

If someone said I made a mistake and I got kissed or it happened, and then he was like no, I don't want to do that. I could probably get over that. I would be bummed. I don't know if I could get over it if my partner was like, this thing happened and it was really uncomfortable. And then I realized it was uncomfortable and I got out of it as quickly as I could, and then was like, but I am going to go on the book tour with this person. I'd be like what he so, Yeah,

I don't know. I hear what you're saying. Because the first club, the kisses, the thing, the tours, the thing, the tour with the kiss guy. Yeah, that's the choice. It's a big choice. God. Well, here I was feeling real bad about how bitchy Peyton was, and now Sophia just talked me right out about emotion I'm good with Peyton was the alligator in the most hotel in this episode. You're right, that was a big that's a really big deal.

And for a high schooler, and especially somebody like Nathan who hasn't been emotionally vulnerable with anyone except this girl, like he finally made it all out for her. And then she was like, Okay, but just sit here with your emotions. And deal with it because I gotta go on this bus with this guy you're very threatened by. Yeah, guys, we have to do an abbreviated version of these episodes as grown as women were we talking about doing like

drunk history, but drunk ot history. Okay, but you're gonna have to sit here. Awesome, just awesome. Don't be mad. I'm just gonna go get on this bus with the guy. I don't think it's in the one time you need to relax. I see you. When I see you, everything's fine. You know. I love it a lot. You know. What I think is interesting though, is like joy even hearing your perspective where you're going. Why can't he get over it?

Because as a viewer, how she feels for him is so apparent to you and to the two of us. And that's why it works. I think that's why the audience always rooted for them, because the audience knew what Nathan didn't, which was she didn't mean it. She didn't

love that guy. She loves you. Everybody makes mistakes and and and it it's such a fun relationship to watch because he's going to heal the way he needs to, and he's going to take the time he needs to, but we all as viewers unequivocally know that he's the guy for her. And it's was sad me not the television. It's like when you see someone go into a wanted house. You you're like, because the babies that are going upstairs,

you know. It almost makes Antoine's philosophy of only reading your parts of the script makes so much sense, because how could James play this frigidness with Haley if he knew all the things that we know that we see. Um, that makes total sense. He's doing a great job, though, I mean, that is cold. Angry. James is the scariest, Like, you don't you don't want to You're like, please, don't

ever be mad at me. Now listen. Once he levels up into Kevin Kilner territory and starts playing mad Dad, you just signed me right up because I made James Lapperton as mad Dad. For sure. James doesn't explode. James is just done. Yes, he just you know what I mean. And Nathan is the same way. It's like, there's no explosion. It's oh no, the the walls, the drop ridges up, there's alligators in the moat and yeah, there's no similar.

It's It's actually very funny because seeing Brooke and Nathan in their parallel in this episode, then winding up alone together watching Haley and Lucas walk off, I remembered I loved that moment, but you know what bummed me out. I do remember we shared a moment James and I. You know, Brooke is standing there. Lucas has just left and said I'm the guy for you and you're going to see, you know, and she's wondering if she can trust him. Haley has said I'm not going anywhere, and

Nathan's like, yeah, okay. He's like he's got to wait and see. Is she really going to say? Are these two going to prove it to two? Broke into Nathan and I remember in the blocking when Lucas walks away from Brooke standing there, you know, the she kind of she I, it's so weird to talk about our characters. I like took a step from the Lifeguard boys. She I, we we Brooke and eye. Um we walked away from the Lifeguards and then the screen Yeah, I'm so confused.

Whatever um And then James walks up to me and we watched the two of you walk away, and I remember there was there was a take, as you would where we looked at each other and then we looked at you two, and I understand the direction they wanted to discern that it's a much farther road for Haley and Nathan than it is for Brooke and Lucas. And so then then there was the request to don't look

at him. You know, you guys standing side by side communicates it enough and and maybe you're hopeful, and that's what made it. In the episode, Brooke and Nathan never make eye contact, and brook kind of smiles, thinking like, oh wow, he's really he's really showing up. And I get it, but man, I missed. I missed these two people having their moment of like, wow, we're kind of on an island. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what's so interesting about what we do is it's art, like everyone has

an opinion and there's a million versions. It's like sliding doors. Both scenes would have worked, but our director liked it better that Brooke was happy and didn't look at Nathan. And it's it's so cool to me that like every version has its own life, because Brooks also the only person not wallowing in anything right now. We needed you to be the sunshine in that little yellow shirt because you were like the only you have so much fun.

You know what I realized in this episode, Brooke singlehandedly embodies every character on Sex in the City. Oh my god, thank you, all of them. You're all of them. Think about that for a second. She's totally got the Charlotte mom energy right now, like taking care of everyone. The skive is any dipping, you know, running around playing with all the boys. Brook that is, um, what's Samantha? And

then what's Cynthia Nixon's character's name. Miranda's like into politics and she's like super you know, and she's like, yeah, getting into politics and education and you know, caring about causes and all of that. And then Sarah Jessica Parker always has the most amazing outfits and who's just like super emotionally raw and vulnerable and always just wants to be in the right place with the right The best day of my life. You did it. This is the

happiest day in my life. You don't check Check. You don't even need to watch Sex in the City anymore. Just watch Brooke in Onetrey Hill. That's Oh my god. That's such a good observation. Joya. Wait, so then do you get to pick who you're Mr? Big is? Like in all of O th h like history, who is Brooks Big? I mean, you can go wide here, you can do anything you want. You You literally made the the Closet Door boy lists this episode, so you could put any famous boy big on there. I didn't know.

I didn't even open it up to the all of the Warner brother like c W shows going around like Who's her Big is? That they're a brick crossover on like a million other episodes on any other show. Brooks should definitely have gone on Gossip Girl and slapped one of those boys for being I kind of feel like, honestly, I think if if we hadn't been robbed in season two, I think Uncle Cooper probably would have been brooks big career and the whole you know. But then they chickened out,

so which I get. I mean, I should not have as a teenage character. But I thought he said that that was going to be for the five year jump, that they were going to put you guys together. Yeah that we're right, Yeah, you're right. Still he should have been it. He should have been Mr Big you and Coop would have been That would have been than man. Yep,

that would have been really nice. All right, Okay, can we talk about Lucas and Nathan on the River Court because Joy, you made really good points about James's energy being very like clear and kind of shut down. And while we were watching the scene, there's like a trend in boy acting right now where everybody wants to talk like Batman and makes me insane. Everyone wants to be like cool and boy Chad just like left it all

out on the field. He's like up one minute and down the next, and he's trying so hard to break through the wall of Nathan and like, if I can't get your sympathy, if I can't get your empathy, if I can't connect with you that way, that I'm going to tell you to coff, you know, like I'm gonna try tolicit any kind of emotion I can from you. I'm going to threaten you. I just love that our boys acted like real teenage boys, like they were trying

to be hip. Yeah. I love that too. I think if that was it was still that era and the other shows that were on the air that we're in our demographic were genre based shows, and I even consider Gossip Girl to be a genre based show because it was such heightened fantasy. Yeah, it was very fantasy, like

Dynasty or something. Um, so yeah, it was. I think we were kind of the last of the breed of the Everwood and Dawson's Creeks and Gilmore girls, where it was just very natural, be emotional, be raw, you're they weren't really worried about their heartthrob status. Um, it was

just more about doing good work. And also that was a huge benefit of being in Wilmington's as opposed to being in Los Angeles filming this show, because in l A there's a totally different culture and pressure around young actors, and to be in Wilmington's we a lot of us were theater actors. We had a lot of guest stars that came down from New York as theater actors, and so the work really was the most important thing for people on the show. Yeah, you'd be called out if

you were going to do the work. I mean I remember Paul being like, if you're not going to commit, then don't even say the words, because if you only go halfway, you're gonna look stupid, you know. Paul told

me a story once about I won't say who. He told me a story once about someone who came on the show and had been uh working as a supporting actor recurring actor in in one of the seasons, and um had been around for a while but finally got a real storyline written for them and there was a lot to do and it was highly emotional, and that person came to work and know their lines and wasn't really was kind of distracted on their phone, and he I remember him just being like, I just want to

tell you how many people would kill for the position that you're in right now, and the fact that you have disrespected everyone by showing up here like you have a huge opportunity, this could make you a series regular, but instead you've shown up and showed us all that you don't respect any of our work, and you don't respect yourself and you don't believe in yourself enough to

show up knowing your lines. And made the person cry, but kind of rightly so, just because he called it out and was like, listen, I'm gonna tell you the truth. You've picked up you know. Yeah, it's Larry Energy mad dad. Yeah, he was directing, by the way, so that's why he had he was in the position to say that it's not like a random charge. I cherish honest feedback to constructive criticism is one of the greatest things a human in can give you, and it shows that they respect you.

This new whatever thing where like you're supposed to sugarcoat everything and you know, don't really tell someone when they screw up, like, you know, just tell them they're doing a great job. But you know, maybe what whatever, Maybe

it's not a It drives me crazy. It's like, no, be honest, care about me enough to to give me feedback, value that I am enough of an adult and um that I have enough of an intellect and enough capability to be empathetic to learn that I have not met an expectation or let you down, and then I can change. It's the crux even of a healthy romantic relationship. You have to be able to say to your partner, this thing in our interaction caused a rip, and now together

we have to repair it. Because if you don't acknowledge that there's a rip, you can't repair it ever. And I don't understand why you know my fear now would be that. If Paul had said that to someone, you know, they would have gone and complained about him. And it's like, he just gave you the best career advice of your life. Yes, you should thank him. I should write him a thank you note. Yes we should go to thank him because better you'll go be better forever after having heard that,

you know, it's beyond Uh. It drives me crazy when they don't give me honest feedback. It's actually vital to an actor as an artist. I cannot trust you as a as a director or another actor or whatever. Mostly with directors, this is my complaint in episodic when they're just sugarcoating things and moving home. I won't trust you. And if you don't, if you're not willing to tell me something that's hard or something I don't you think I don't want to hear, then I can't trust you.

And how can I put my heart out, take it out, my beating heart, out of my chest and hold it out in front of you and this entire crew and the other person in the scene. How can I do that if I don't trust you? Yeah? Well, because what it says to me is that you don't respect me. Enough to tell me what you really think and respect for growth. Yeah, and it's interesting when you say that, Joy. It makes me think about the way Nathan talks to Haley in this episode, because he does have the wall

up with Lucas. He doesn't give him anything at the River Court, but you realize that what Lucas said got in because he shows up at the party and he's just honest with her and he says, I don't know, I don't know if I'm going to be ready. I don't know if I'm ever going to be ready. I'm going to go do my basketball thing. He literally tells her what his defense mechanisms are and and it's so, oh my god, what a gift that he gives her honest feedback and says, you did this thing you you know,

to use your metaphor. It's like, you wasted my time. You've shown me what you think and I don't know if I'm gonna get over it. And it's what a gift. And to hear it coming out of the mouth of a teenage boy I know, and have that entrance with the guitar, it was so catacastic. If I keep saying this about the storyline, because they just keep feeling like

it's um. Liz Taylor, you know when when Paul Newman and Knat and Roof finally yells at her in the first like within the first like five minutes of the movie, and she's like, that's progress, Okay, an emotion. You're giving me some kind of emotional reaction. I'll take it um for you. For those of you who don't know the story, Paul Newman, I mean it's multilayered and to them, the watch it, make them watch watch the damn movie. But anyway,

have homework this week exactly. But it's so but so when he shows up and puts Tim's guitar over there, and it's just very like, okay, anger, I'll take it great. Do you know who else we're getting from the strong, honest feedback in this episode Karen in Karen's cafe in that scene, just that slow, steady shot on her when she's like, I'm sad whoever tried to kill you failed have been nice like and she says it with a smile, and it's not overly done. It's just a glimmer. And

I love that she master fall. She can feel Dan baiting her trying to find out if it's Keith, if it's Andy, if it's her, like who killed me? You know, she's playing with him. She wants him to think maybe it's me. Maybe think but by the way, rather than be a person who's like, oh no, is he wearing a wire? Are the cops looking at me? Did he give my name to authorities? And like acting out of fear, She's like, no, I'm going to admit that I would love for you to be dead. That would be what

a blessing. Yeah, and I love too that it was a well written scene because he punches so low, saying that Lucas was a mistake, you know, whatever, whatever it is. She says, well, something must have been and he goes, yeah, kind of like Lucas so gross and immature, like he's still sixteen years old. Nathan his father. That's where we're at, by light years, and Karen absorbs the blow and then

deals it back to him slowly. It's so it's she takes this darkness and Moira manages two not only give such a masterful scene class, but she makes it so sexy. You're just like, oh my god, I'm intimidated, and I love you. Karen take get charge. It's always good. Wait, this whole crush on Keith thing seems like because as we have new guest stars come in, like, yes, we're paying Kevin Kilner, we're paying Shirley. Who else are we paying this episode? I don't know. I don't know, Brett,

those are the two bigs. Yeah, they weren't pay because they weren't paying us. Well, but it's like they have to take other people off the docket, you know, and so they well, we'll just give Andy and Keith and stew over it. But I don't because Barbara wasn't in this episode. There. But I don't understand though, you guys, is she's lamenting Andy being gone and seems like she misses Andy, and but then it's Keith, but then it's Andy.

But then who does she miss? I can't. I feel like I don't know if it's a device to get us somewhere because I don't remember what's coming. I don't storyline or any of them, I guess, or if it was like lazy writing where they were like it's Kate, it's Andy, it's Kate, like you has it was them pitting them against each other because they were like, hey, Listen, man, if you don't agree to this like price that we want to pay you, we're just gonna go with this

cheaper dude. That's what I was just gonna say. I think they're trying to figure out if they could get Craig back for another season or not. They were just in contract negotiations, so they were like, let's just keep them both in the mix until we decide who's It's so dumb. That's when you're like, you gotta have creative people in power positions at studios, because if it's just about the bean counting, it really throws in your creativity. Yeah,

for sure. Ain't that the truth? Ums about the executive suite? Wait, what's going to happen with Peyton and Ellie here? I'm trying to I mean, I like that Peyton says, am I ever going to be able to trust anyone in my life? Or something to that effect? Um, and I feel that, And I it's hilarious that she's the worst DJ ever in this episode and that she just by the way, that was good music she was playing like

I did. Yeah, but you are painting swear You're like, excuse me, that was not just because you guys, can't shake your ass too. It doesn't mean it's not worthy of a beach play. Um, you light up my life and we just lit a bonfire. Read between the lines so rough. No, I really I said a number of times in this episode how much I liked the music

because it was super recognizable stuff. There was like Fallout Boy in there, and there was some like bops from the early two thousand's that we all definitely listened to on a regular rotation. Um music was becoming a bigger deal on our show, and I really feel like you and Tyler laid the groundwork for that, because once you guys went out on tour, are just for like, oh there, No, this is like real. If we go on once, it's not like we're playing in the background like on other shows.

We become a part of the storyline that's totally different, totally fun. It's probably why we got people like like Pete Wentz to come and a part of the real storyline on the show. Yeah. You know, this episode was hard for me because I had a funeral to go to in Iowa for a relative, and I remember going to the executive suite and being like, guys, I'll do anything. I'll do anything, but I have to be gone, you know, these like three days and they were like you can't go,

you can't go, you can't go. And I'm literally like crying and begging and I'm just like please, you have to let me go. So finally it got and I feel like I may have took like a pen to the script and been like, you don't need me in this scene. There was a scene we're Peyton and Nathan had like a whole conversation like sitting on a cooler. I feel like I either remember reading anymore, do you

remember this? It's not in the cut, so I can't remember if we cut it from the script or if we like filmed it real half assid And they were like, you know what, but if you notice, all of peyton scenes at the beach party are close up shots of her at that table. And I did all of my scenes in one day so I could go to this funeral in Iowa. Um, but it works because Peyton is really cut off. Yeah, so it was a device. It was a device that worked out great if you ask. Yeah,

I'm also glad that you. I mean, it sucks that there's so little humanity in the behind the scenes of our jobs. But I'm glad that you advocated for yourself and it just played into the storyline. It's like, I can't trust anybody for that. It's against me. Yeah, you know, Peyton grumpy and Joy. You made the comment you're like you and Cheryl have enough of the same like mannerisms. That's your eyes are similar kind of too, there's enough

enough similarity. It's weird to watch it as a separate person because at the time I remember thinking like, oh, we're so different, We're so different, And now watching as a grown up, I'm like, I get it. I mean,

now you see it. She watched you. I think she watched some of your performances, being some of the stuff that you do, and you could see it the parallel between the Peyton and Larry fight and then when Larry gets her on the river walk and they have a fight, she stands like you, She looks up at him, she does these things that look like you when you're obsessed, and you were, you know that sort of it was so such a young teenage girl thing to do when

you're crying to you, like open your mouth a little, like I don't know how to explain it, but you do it is it's just sort of like petulant, like childish. It's great. And she didn't she didn't in that in the last moment after Larry walked away and I was like, this actress was watching she was when do we have her on? Have we reached out Charlotte? Guys? Could we

got to get her on soon? I hadn't seen her since we like filmed the show, and she was at that last convention that we were at right before the pandemic hit and I were the one in Wilming Baby. I wept. I wept and wept and wept when I saw her because I just I love her. She's the only person that could have played Ellie, the only person. Do you remember how psyched we were when we heard that Laura Palmer was going to be on our show? Nuts?

It was nuts because also Moira had been in the Twin Peaks movie and it just felt like it felt like we were like kind of getting their street cred by Carrie. Yes they're cool girl, sign us up? Yes, no, I you know this is a fun episode for me. I love this episode. I'm writing it down as one of my favorite of all time. Because I like the duality of the stuff, like Tim being naked with the guitar at the bonfire and Brooke right in the names

on the doors. But then all the emotional heavy lifting too, Like when our show hit this kind of stride where the balance between fun and serious were even These were our best episodes Magic, it felt like the season one Magic all those moments. Yeah, that's what it felt like. It really did. And it's interesting to see the precursors to some things, like we see that gift of the door fight between Peyton. We've seen it for fifteen years.

I forgot he I forgot how hilarious is the introduction of the doors was like the scene between us is so funny. You wake up, I'm in your room drawing on. I go get you your toothbrush and hand it to you when we're having a conversation and you're brushing your teeth. Oh, such good direction and the energy of these best friends. And and it starts in this like light, happy, funny place where Brooke is saying Larry's her hot dad fantasy,

and like they're deciding who gets that. I like, I know, I have the reaction where I'm like, oh, honey, don't you're like gross. It's just like it's so lovely to see the fun and the innocence and the humor and you and I really getting to banter and then knowing where it goes. I'm like, this was this was well done.

Off the Brook and Peyton, I mean, sorry, the Brook and Haley starting to build this bubbly friendship too, which is so fun because I've I think Haley was really disconnected from the girls, even though they tried a lot in season one, there was I think she still kind of always was like the odd man out because you two had a history together. So it's really fun to see everything coming together now and us throwing singers at each other too, you know, like you throw it at

me and I throw it at you. I'm like, well, where do you want to watch us? And you're just you know, and it feels would badge my eyes out or something. It's my favorite thing. But it's it's got like sibling energy. Yeah, for sure. Everything they're giving us this season, oh it does, it just feels very alive and fun. Well, we loved this episode. We have a listener question and we have to spin a wheel. You girls, ready, all right, Jocelyn is asking where do you see yourselves

professionally and personally in the next ten years? Directing? Writing? Isn't that funny? That's just kind of what we were talking about in the beginning of the episode two. What does she a wizard? How wizard talk about this? I'm gonna get my damn ass on Broadway or the West End for Christ's sake, at some point in the next ten years. He enjoying audience. Guess who has an apartment in the city, totally ready for about to happen. Yes,

taking over? Um, yeah, writing, directing, producing, singing, touring, mom ng maybe wife ing. I don't know. Let's see what happens, um are we we're going to solicit for all those things. Guys, I should have brought my I've got crystals over there. I should have lit candles and like, brought the crystals over before we started. Look at this perfect, perfect and burning a candle for us. Lady manifesting right now, um calling all the witches of the North, all the witches

launch into the craft. Guys. Brooke talked about witchcraft before she lit that fire, and I liked it. I was like Hillary, they gave us a little Kernel. Yeah, they knew it was coming, Like these pitches are gonna go dark later. Um, I I honestly want to lean more into just like writing. I just had a really good meeting with my publisher harper One about my second book, and it just made me want to write all the books.

Like yeah, I think for so long in my youth, I felt like I had to be an extrovert and I had to be like I had to go places. And you guys know that my comfort zone is literally my cave, and writing lets me do that. So I'll just come out on our on our wine tours for drama queens. Otherwise I'm going to be in a cave with the crystals, writing book writing, writing books. We're gonna get into some fix kids. Yes, I love that's coming. I. Um, it's funny you say that I have a dream of

doing some y a fiction. Oh, yes, because we didn't. You know, we've talked about it when we were doing the show. We didn't have a lot. It was for us as young women. Well, but we want more of that. Geek Love and Perks of Being a Wallflower were the big books, but they weren't necessarily geared towards chicks. It was kind of just like this is this is outsider stuff. Yeah, and I think about, you know, wanting to write something for young us. I think about um to your point, joy,

like I take all your adjectives. Aside from singing and touring, I will not be dropping an album. Um, but don't like, oh my god, watch the universe is going to be like, well, look out, ladies and the three of us. You know what I'm doing something, I'm yeah, oh my god, twist my arm. But yeah, I think I think it's more of all those things, you know. I'm I'm reading great scripts, and I'm thinking about what I want to act in, what I want to direct, and thinking about what i

want to write. I'm I'm starting to feel like I'm finally getting out of my own way. Yeah. I'm a really good writer, and I love reading, and I love um topical writing like things that you know, op eds and journalism, um skewing pieces, and to lean into that as a strength rather than say like, no other people

do that. No. Like I'm I'm finally hitting a point in my life where I'm stopping coming up with excuses for why I'm not good at the thing that everyone I trust tells me I'm good at a Well, did you watch the Taylor Swift n y U graduation speech where No, I thought you were gonna say the Taylor Swift documentary and I was gonna be like, yes, I've se she was just a commencement speaker and she talks about, UM, I just saw a clip on the interweb and she's like,

you know, somewhere along the lines, people made it uncool to try, and I'm here to tell you it's cool to try, like try everything, try all the things. And so I hope that our younger fan base in particular heard that, um, because it is cool to try. It's hard. It's hard to get out of your own way and get out of the fears of feeling like you don't want to be the person in the room who doesn't know what's going on. But the truth is, everyone loves

someone who is trying. Everyone loves someone who's asking questions and going for it. And you're not going to run into a lot of people who want to throw up a stop sign or close a door in your face if you're sincerely just go. You're putting it all out there,

like I'm just trying. I'm just going for it and um, you should be UM, and that's I'm I can't believe I'm only just now reaching that point in my life where I'm really ready to to start um, going for it and stop again, like you said, so coming up with excuses why I can't. I got that at this it's too much, I'm overwhelmed, blah blah blah. No, No, I mean not to get like two in our feelings here, but honestly, you guys, I I think it's incredibly pressing

in this moment. I wish I wish it was a little later and we were all having one, but I would say, like we should. It's like, it feels like a moment for like an emotional or spiritual toast. Because we survived the early aughts on a teen drama like that era was so rough for young girls. And the thing that I have always loved about the two of you, which I'm finally willing to recognize it myself, is emotional resiliency.

And we have stuck it out, and we have made mistakes, and we have continued moving, and we've been nice enough to not pretend that that wasn't our reality. We've shared our reality with everybody who's listening to this podcast today, with our fans, like we haven't tried to do the thing of like, well, you know, we're in the public eye and we're just gonna act like we get all together, like shut up, and and here we are on this journeys.

The big word, the point really is emotional resiliency and messy. I love you years, Joscelyn. I hope you're everywhere you want to be in ten years, um and more and more. Yeah, well let's find out who is most likely to be something else in ten years? What's our wheel? Saying? Joy? That was such a good segue. Oh my god, you're so Sometimes sometimes that's why she's a good director. She likes a transition. Oh no, is this Brooke I don't know? Most likely to order? No, it's Bevin, my character, not

the person pumpkin spice latte. Who's most likely to order a pumpkin spice list. It's either Bevin the character or Tim? Yes, I would This isn't that. I think Tim is on the money. Tim being a pumpkin spice latte guy feels really right to me. I think Antoine. I think Antoine actually might be them. Yeah, it just seems like rappaccino guy, like yeah, but now I get it, the sweet bit, the sweet sweet Our boys. I love our boys are boys?

Are they just they're the best boys. We got so here in the next episode because I miss seeing their faces. We need them like they I think the writers forgot how badly we needed them around us in this show and how badly the audience needed that sense of grounded nous of home. They were established in the beginning of this series as a sense of home, and I miss them when they're not around. Well, let's let's um tag Garbage from Peyton's side of the closet doors are our

very own junk. Cullen Moss is in the staircase and is so good. Oh my god, it's just like blowing up. He should have like blown up when we were younger. But he's got just the perfect energy right now to be in all of these fabulous things like outer banks and the staircase. So go watch my sweet garbage. I love sweet Garbage. We love you guys. Thank you for your thoughtful questions and for showing up for us, and your continued support and encouragement. And we can't wait to

have another week with you. Come on back and check us out next Sunday at midnight or you know, Monday morning when you wake up. What by what it works for you. We will see you next week for Season three, Episode three, First Day on a brand New Planet. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O t H or email us at Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time. Were all of that at High School Drama? Girl Drama Girl

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