First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama, Girl Drama, Girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl sharing for the drama Queens Girl Fashion. But you'll tough, girl, you can sit with us Girl Drama, Queens, Drama, Queen's Drama, Queen's Drama Drawn McQueen's Drama Queens. Alright, you guys. This is episode twenty one, titled Believing Song. It originally aired May fourth, two thousand four. This was a whopper, friends.
The synopsis is just just the tip of the iceberg. Lucas is shop to learn that Dan once asked Karen for joint custody of Lucas when he was a baby. Meanwhile, Peyton panics after Nicky kidnaps Jake's baby while she's babysitting. And this synopsis doesn't even touch on the huge, big perverted elephant in the room, which is the porn plot. They didn't want anybody not tuning in because the word porn was in the street in the caption, so they
just decided to remove that story. I'm sure, I mean, I mean, they didn't want the parents to know exactly exactly. Can't let them know we're normalizing porn for their teenage daughters. That'd be crazy. In let's talk about all the other stuff first, because the porn is gonna take a long time, so we're gonna make people wait for the porn of it all. Just hold on horses, So we take notes, right, and my very I've got a whole note file from the top of the episode was where the hell is
Karen's family? Yeah, what's up with that? Fans have brought this up as she's having this conversation about what was going through her head at eighteen and how Dan. You know, she was having to save Lucas from Dan. It's just like, where's her mom and dad? Because they would have been in the thick of that decision making process as well. And do we ever change that? They just never show.
I don't remember ever meeting Karen's parents, I mean, and I don't remember an explanation either did they die or they just horrendous people and she didn't want them in her life, I mean, because they obviously lived in Tree Hill because she grew up there. And it's weird that a that a girl, you know, the obviously Karen's storyline is she got knocked up in high school. She had this baby at seventeen or eighteen years old? Where is her family? Yeah? Because really they be involved? Right? Well
do we Jake? Jake Chielski talks a lot about his parents and his parents helping him with Jenny. But do we ever meet Jake's parents either, because they're working like three jobs a piece, were using? Okay, but hold on, then that gives us a little bit of liberty here. If we're going to cast Karen's parents, who do we cast as like Lucas's grandparents Karen's parents? Like? Such a good question. He's got like strong Irish vibes, like Moira, like Brendan Gleeson. He would have been he would have
been around at that time, the Gleeson Um. Yeah, Brian. What's his name on succession? The patriarch on succession? What is his name? So good? He's so good? I keep what I'm drawing a blank. You know who I love for every mom character ever is Becky Ann Baker. She played the Mom and Freaks and Geeks, and she was the mom on Um Girls, and she's like the mom and everything and the TV show that I did with
Sarah Wayne Kelly's um down in Savannah, Georgia. She played the mom and I geeked out really hard and she's got like the red hair and it's like, all shucks, mom. And I can see Karen coming from someone Sue were kind like that, you know, someone who's like I love the mom game. Oh yeah, oh yeah, I could see that too. Or like a civil shepherd. Civil shepherd's older than Moira. That's a great storyline, would be amazing, Like the reason Moira is not talking to her mother is
because she's a Jessica Lang or a civil Shepherd. So great Brian Cox from Succession of Guys. I would faint, like my ringside match, whatever cage match, boxing fight, whatever sort thing. Mine would be to watch Jessica Lang and Morrick Kelly act together. Boom. Yeah, I gotta know what that side of the family is, vapor. We just never never find out. Well, Lucas doesn't seem too can learned with it since he's deciding to go off with Keith by the end of the episode, which is a really
big deal. And I saw Chad really performed that scene well because it could have He could have played the whole arc very differently, where he was angry with her for lying and then decides to go with Keith, almost out of retaliation for carrinsment. But yeah, but I love that he didn't play it that way and that it was out of you know, he was trying to really break it to her gently and be kind and oh god, you could see how much pain she was in when he said that. Yeah, you could tell that it hurts.
And what I loved about the way he did it too, is he started with his own stuff. You know, he was talking obviously and um, what was the word we were using? He was like, he was sort of alluding to something with Peyton, But oh yeah, it was such a weird conversation. I'm gonna make some changes tomorrow. I wanted to see it before I did it, That's like what.
But then but then when he goes to see Karen and Keith, he opens with seeing things from her perspective and how sometimes you really need to figure out how to undo your mistakes and that he needs to do that and that he's not of the person that he's been behaving as recently, and that's such a beautiful omission of fault fallibility and the fact that we not only see it in Lucas in this episode, but we really see it for the first time in Karen. We've never
seen Karen screw up before ever. I mean, she's been like a martyr, you guys. Yeah, we saw her party a little bit, but we haven't seen her really admit it. So you know what I really felt for and and there was such good acting in those emotional scenes for Chad doing all the stuff Lucas had to do. But I really felt for Chad and for James because they had to run in this entire episode prints. They were running with Waite plates, they were running in the streets
doing all those push ups. Oh, you guys. Workout scenes are the worst because they're like a minute long in the episode, but they take like eight hours to film. It's it's like workout scenes and eating scenes are kind of on par because either way or just exhausted by the end of it, I'm done. It does suck because you have to do it from so many different camera angles, which means that you're sprinting. You know, if they see it on on TV once you're doing it like thirty
times in every setup. No, we didn't have to do that for the cheerleading. Thank god, thank god. They were really good together. Chad and Moira play so well together, and you can see Chad's deep respect for her on camera because a is big time. I know from working with him that he would cry on my coverage. The camera wouldn't even be pointed at him. He would be emoting just so that I could also do my performance. And so I see the kind of that that reciprocity
in his scenes with Moira. And that's an important thing for us to have learned in season one and us to have experienced from our older acting counterparts in season one, because it's set the tone for us as the show went on, like, oh, this is how you show up for one another. And for him to be able to do all this heavy lifting emotionally with Moira, I feel like I lucked out down the road because we got to have similar like parenting conversations and season six um.
But yeah, they play so nicely together and they really do. In the last episode, he gets caught slutting it up. What did hold on? What did Brooks say? He outslutted them both of us, so good, that's right. I think that a little throwaway line just he outslet into both of us. He sure did. He got caught. And so this idea that Dan Scott was once a good boy that went down a dark path, his wheels are turned in this whole episode like, oh my god, is that
where I'm headed? Well? And he's getting more and more opportunity. Lucas is to witness the dynamic of Dan and Nathan, and what a hard thing that must be to hold up that mirror and say, what parts of Dan Scott are in me? What parts of that man who is a bully and a brute and who who steam rules the people he claims to love? Am I like him?
Am I? You have to? You have to ask yourself that those questions about nature versus nurture, And I think we all ask ourselves those questions as we're growing into adults and trying to figure out who are we? Who am I? Where where does this habit come from? I mean, there are so many things that are in a family lineage that get us down through generations without anyone nurturing
it into them. It's just there, totally unrelated to our show, But oh my god, and I worked with us a fabulous makeup artist last year and I won't say who, but her story is so good and she tells everyone, so I'll just keep her name private. But she found out last year she's our age and found out she has a secret sister she never knew about. And her secret sister lives in Australia and is also a makeup artist.
Get out of town and that's right. And when they met, they were just like, oh my god, this is wait, there's something in there's something in us, like we do the same job and we never knew each other. So yeah, I don't know. It makes sense to me that you could look at the person whose jeans you share and go how much of me is me? And how much
of me is you? Well sure? And the idea that Dan wanted him Lucas He says some things towards the beginning of the episode that really made me sad, because it seemed like he felt responsibility for Dan going toxic, Like had I only been in his life, he wouldn't have gotten so hardened against Karen or it was almost like he was worried that the rejection that Dan dealt with when Karen was like that's okay, hard pass what sent him down his ugly path um and kids do that.
Kids will always find a way to blame themselves. That's the thing I think is interesting because when we were watching the episode, we were like, God, that's way too much for a kid to take on. But it makes sense because as a kid, you often think if something bad has happened that you're involved in, it must be your fault. And what I think is really interesting is for us now as adults to watch it and go, oh, if Dan hadn't been a dickhead, he would have said, Okay,
I'm not going to win in court. Let me prove myself, let me show up, let me anyway, let me show up anyway. Yeah. But instead he went on the war path. And it's interesting to see him in this moment in this episode because as Paul plays him, it's like his his eighteen years of a war path has slammed him into a wall. Because he sees Nathan and Lucas bonding genuinely, it's so fun to watch. It's so fun. It's so fun, but it is interesting to see how much it upsets
him and even White he calls him out on it. God, very is so good when he laughs at Paul, I just have twiggle in his eye. I loved all the chess playing between those characters and all the adults. There was some chess happening in this episode. It was really fun to see, and I was really happy to see Brooke and Peyton back together again, you know, as Nathan and Lucas were spending time to other and becoming friends. There was some really nice bonding happening there. I'm so
my son is mystified by them all. Like, I don't even know if Gus is actually ever spent time in a mall before. Um. I mean, we live in a really small town, so it's not like there's a lot of malls at our disposal. But for him, when he sees it, it automatically takes him to like a vintage place. He's like, that's where kids used to go, which is horrible. Kids kids still go to malls? Is that like a thing that people still do? Just I don't know. I actually got to walk around and see who you see?
Oh my god, you guys. On our last episode, Emmanuel was telling us that would hurt. What kids in Canada would do is park parties. Which do you know about this park parties? We hadn't really heard about this. Yeah. Yeah, in Pasadena, you had you had park parties. Oh, by the way, god, we have like parking lot parties. You'd like go to the Rose Bowl and hang out in the parking lot at night. Yeah, yeah, but I don't know. I can't imagine. I don't know what they do. Now.
What was your shop at the mall? What was your favorite shop? Oh? I wanted to be cool enough to visit, to visit Hot Topic all the time, but I just went in there. I was like, what am I going to do with these fish net stockings? I don't know what to do with that. I was really into, Like, god, guys, think about it. When we were in like junior high in high school, wet Seal always had glittering like that. Oh my god, you were allowed to shop them like
on strict supervision. The body works, Oh my god, like orange sickle man. Okay, So when I was in high school, I've told you before, I was in love with this boy for like ever. He's my best friend and the day of graduation he was having a graduation party, which it was not invited to. Okay from my heart, but we're gonna cyberstock him later. Joy you're gonna give us his name. But I was determined to kiss him before high school was over because I didn't love with him,
so I know, so I went, I had. I had gone to bath and body Works in the mall, and I had gotten some sort of like summer berry chapstick, and you better believe I smothered my lips and yeah, god, bless,
oh my god. I like had I think I had somebody dropped me off or drive me, like when maybe one of my parents, I don't know, somebody drove me over there and I rang the doorbell and he came out, and it was like it was so weird because I was like, clearly, I'm not supposed to be here because you didn't invite me, which I was too nervous or not to like, I was just too insecure to ask like what, like yeah, at this age and like the man watching invite merry party, I thought best. But but
you know, back then, I don't know. I just thought, oh, he doesn't really like me, he's just putting up with me, so this is his party. I gotta give him his space. I mean, I still have no idea why it doesn't matter, but I remember ringing the doorbell at all. Guys, I'm not bothered. It's okay. Everything's fine now, guys. I'm not scarred for life. It's just paid to process trauma for decades. Friends, we're still doing it. But I kissed him on his front porch. I kissed him. I kissed him. I totally
kissed him on his front porch. But did you warn him or did you just go in for it? I just was like a congratulations, and guy just went in for it. I made the move. He got a mouthful of berry flavored wax. I'm sure and you know. And then I was like, he said thank you. Every person we kissed, she'd say thank you. I agree, that's right. Damn it you god, heartbreaking story. I want to fistfight this person. Listen, if you've still got your berry lip gloss, I'll kiss the sh out of you. I think that
that is adorable. And main movie on the hot topic and wet seal in the mall ring the doorbell, Oh my god, I were were the hell out of some hot topic. In fact, I continued to wear hot topic while we were on this show. Like other people had stylists and would like go to show rooms and like borrow pretty clothes and literally for the teen people, like the Teen Choice Awards, and also for some other party I went to. I went and got close at Hot Topic and on the red carpet, they asked, They're like,
what are you wearing? And my manager about pete her pants when I was like hot topic, Oh my god, like that. I'm that older lady that would probably still weird those from Hot Okay, but speaking of the mall, Hillary, I mean, especially with kids, do you did you freak out a little bit still when you go to the mall or maybe when Gus was younger, or if you just go with George, do you get a little freaked out that if you turn around to like smell some perfumes and he's in a steeler. I am going to
level with you. I hate my performance in this episode of like oh No, where's Jenny, because clearly I'm not a mother in the well, like well, we filmed this and I was like acting scared is so dumb. I hate it. It's like so fake, not good at it. I could act the hell out of that scene right now, because the trauma of having a child disappear even for
like two seconds. It's like this internal thing that happens to you where it makes youre like butt pucker and your blood run hold and you're just like yeah and so yeah, I don't take my kids to crowd and plays um because they're too cute. Someone was gonna take them. They're gonna walk. I mean, I just I just train.
I just train her. It's like, listen, if somebody tries to steal you, kick and scream as loud as you possibly can, and I run her through scenarios like what if somebody comes up to you in a public place with a knife and they're like, come with me, kid or else? Dab you? Like, what are you gonna do? You know? We like we talk about. Is that what you're talking about in the car on the way to school? Okay, Henny, we're gonna do today today. It's like acting, but for safety. Yeah.
I mean my parents made us do drills. Yeah, minded too hardcore? Yeah? Sure? Remember do you guys remember in a rush Hour the Jackie Chan Chris Tucker movie with that little girl gets kidnapped and she made her watch that and screw. Yeah. I was like, you see what this little girl is doing, that's what you do? So crazy? I love it. Yeah, no, the mall thing is scary.
But Sofia, do you remember that day of shooting in the mall with Baby Jenny, Because I just remember like having to pretend to be scared, and then when they would yell cut, we'd have to be all like fun with everyone walking around, you know, so they didn't think that we were pretentious, and so the duality of feelings that day was just like that was a really crowded mall. Yeah, it's it's actually I've learned it's really hard when you're working in a public place to be able to protect
the energy that you need for the scene. Because you're right you cut, everyone assumes like I want I'm gonna go tough to you. Now I'm gonna And it's like, hey, I'm supposed to pretend a baby was kidnapped, Like I kind of can't. I can't. I can't be cheery and then be traumatized and then be cheery. And it's like it's psychological torture. And I remember feeling really really self conscious whenever we had to do any very emotional scene in the mall. I was like, I do feel safe
doing this? Yeah? I need cry. And we had a real baby and like you don't want to start crying, Like Grace was such a good baby. And you can see she never looks into lens. She always looks to like whoever the coverage is going to like amazing could work? It is actually because it's always the baby in the scene. That's like looking up at the boom microphone and you're like, like,
you know what I do? Like, I love not only that she was such a good baby to work with because we were babies ourselves, but I have what got us to the mall That scene of you and me in the morning on the quad when when Lucas comes up and tries to talk to Peyton and she's like no, and then you come and join me and we both in perfect sink throw this look back over our left shoulders, like what And I was like, oh, the girls are back. It was just exactly great way to team up with
a girl. I did. It was at summer camp. Okay, so okay, this is my favorite. I went to summer camp and there was another girl in our acting program that was in alpha. We were both alpha's and we didn't know how we felt about one another. So I started kissing this boy, and next thing I know, she pulls me aside and she's like, you kissing Matt And I was like yeah, She's like, I'm kissing Matt. And so at lunch the next day, she sat down with
him at lunch and they were having a conversation. And then I sat down with him at lunch and I just casually said like, what's up, Amy, Uh, you know, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. I just wanted to talk to Matt because we were making out last night and we had the whole thing planned. And she stood up and was like, wait, you two have been kissing, And I was like, of course, are you too, kissing? The whole cafeteria like stops and this boy is about to
piss his hand. Arts camp friends, the entire arts camp was aware that he was two time in the both of us. So then at the talent show at the end of the week, which we did at the end of the week every week, like the dancers acted out the scenario like people, I was saying songs about it. She had not performed. Cell Blocked Tango used his real name. Good that bastard never cheated on a girl ever again.
But humiliation lation a bonding experience because in um, in another world, I would have vilified her, you know, just like, oh, she's after the guy that I'm kissing. But to team up with another chick and be like, no, actually he's the bad guy. He's the one that's playing the both of us and knows exactly what he's doing. It was an important life lesson. Always check in with your girls, check in with the other girl. I love this about it.
Once I'm like, you're literally describing the thought of John Tukermas Day and I love it. Oh my god, did you guys are killing him in that movie? Like what happened to that movie? No, we didn't kill him. I mean we killed his confidence and he murdered his going
back to God, it's so fun. I like that too, And I think that is such a good it's such a good lesson to like make sure that you you know, you're holding the right people accountable well, And it just makes for good juicy TV because now we get to go to the mall and we get to go to Wet Seal and Hot topic. Um, were they trying to make us go into Victoria's Secret like a brawl store? Boring? Typical and why why don't we keep I guess it was just the era, But like, why is there always
a fat joke? Why was the fat joke in the episode? What was it? So when we're in the mall, Brooke looks to Peyton and I say, you can come in here and watch me try on braws and complain about how fat I am. Yeah, and I'm like you you were like a size zero. Yeah. I'm like, I've never been ginnier than I was when I was twenty two.
Let's relax. Oh my god. This is like when I watch I Still Love, I Love Lucy, and I watched I Drew a Genie sometimes with my daughter, and you know, but sometimes there's these jokes that just come out of You're like, oh my god, that's right. The world is just a different place. Back then it was acceptable or stereotypical. I guess for women to talk about how fat they are. What I guess what meant I thought that girls don't. I don't know that I ever had that conversation with
a girlfriend of mine. No. I was always way too proud. You look great, wherever you are, whoever you are, you look great. Hell yeah, what I've had to realize is that the spaces we can get into with ourselves where we're being self critical when I go like, I don't like this, I don't like that, I feel gross because of I'm like, but it says, who who told me this? Someone told me this something or someone told me this,
And what is the fucking point? Like? Yeah, I mean maybe it's from unrealistic expectations in society, some of which come from done done, Dune, Dune and here we are, here, we are joy. You handled this whole porn narrative with precision, Like Haley is a time traveler. We've said it before, We're going to say it again. She's the only person that makes sense to me in this whole show, including my own character. I'm gonna throw my hat in that ring. Absolutely, boy.
I remember getting the script. I remember getting the script and it was very different. Um. Really, I fought hard for the material that we ended up with, actually because I don't remember specifics, but I do remember getting the script and it was all everything that happened, which is what you were talking about when we were watching a hillar about Haley getting sort of gasolt by everybody. She was talking to everyone telling her it's not a big deal. Relax, relax, relax.
By the end of it, yeah, and by the end of it there was some sort of watered down like I think actually at the end of the original script it was something like what Peyton says to Haley in the bedroom, which was, uh, if he's if you've got his heart, you've got You've got more than any of those other girls ever, did you've got his heart? And Haley was some sort of some way like satisfied with that answer, and I, UM, I had a real I had many long battles about this episode and my how
I was going to play the performance. How you know how I because it's so hard when you're on a TV show, because it's not a movie where you're just what it is. There's no time and you don't things
progressed so quickly. So I would just remember that I I changed a lot of those lines on the day, um specifically the stuff in the apartment, and I remember going home and after I got the script I made, I fought for the changes that that they would allow ahead of time, and then when I got there on the day, I whatever else I wanted to change, I just did because I just washing were you being difficult? Getting difficult? Because I feel I felt a responsibility to
young women out there. We're not talking about adults looking at porn. I have many opinions on that topic, but when we're talking about teenagers, which was our demographic, that's a demographic I felt a responsibility to and that those are the people that I knew were watching this show and they were going to be impacted by what what we portrayed. I was really proud of Haley in this episode. The script really wanted to normalize it. That's what the
script wanted to do. They wanted Peyton to normalize it, and Nathan to normalize it, and Lucas to normalize it, and Haley with all of these friends being like, babe, it's fine. Stands stands firm. And that's important because she knew what her comfort level was. She knew what her
boundaries were. If you're a single adult person and you're watching porn that is created by creators who are in control of their own content and are empowered, like great, fine, But if you're in a relationship, and you are in a sexual relationship with someone and they feel like a boundary is being crossed by you consuming this content even if you're not in a sexual relationship. I mean, that's
what the whole thing with Nathan and Haley was. If you're in a emotionally intimate relationship with something, you have to check in with their boundaries. If they're like I don't care, you know, like no big deal. Great. If it makes them uncomfortable, then it's cheating. It is well
and something I find really interesting. You know, everyone who's listening at home, we jumped into some shares in between watching this episode and having this conversation with you all now, and we were sharing some articles we've read and some things that we've heard, and some experiences we've had and
things that our friends have been through. And you know, something I find fascinating is an article from like ten years ago now that said that thirty six percent of and that they had just interviewed men and women for this,
and yeah, it was a very heteronormous situation. And I get that, but I only have the STATA have is that of women feel like discovering that their partner has a pornography habit is as betraying as discovery cheating when a person is having you know, a sexual experience with someone that isn't their partner and that hasn't been explicitly
agreed upon discussed whatever, like Hillary is referencing. That's a big deal, and it was one of the things we were discussing, the three of us, because that means that Haley's reaction, or any of our reactions, or any of your reactions, if you feel the same and you've been gas lit by someone saying a version of it's normal, this is how it's patient and it really doesn't feel normal to you. We just want you to know you're
not alone and that that's okay. You are entitled to feel your feelings, whether your feelings are I feel really empowered by this, this taught me about my body, or I really don't like this and I feel like it's unhealthy your your feelings or your feelings, and that's okay.
I think it's also important to acknowledge that pornography is an addiction for many people because it activates the pleasure centers of the brain and that then you it becomes a compulsive practice because it influences what activities, what stimulation you need to get turned on. You need more and
more of it. It's like any substance or anything that scientifically we have scientific evidence of the chemical reaction in your brain and your body when you're watching something like this, and especially for teenagers, where your bodies are developing, your brain is developing, your um perspective on intimacy, what a woman is, what she's worth, what she's you know, what
her body is for or not for? Um, you know what, how you're supposed to um, how you do feel, rather than how you're supposed to feel, you know how what what things. There's just there are so many um, there are so many things happening inside of you as a young developing person. And to introduce porn as the major um, the major player of what sex looks like at that age,
so the major teacher. It's just really devastating, I think, and I'm so glad that we were able to not just normalize it in this episode that I think we came to a conclusion that it wasn't okay. Yeah, well, and I didn't, like, you know, full disclosure. I found someone stashed before when I was young, and it was like, what the what is this? And when I confronted them, they were like, um, well I didn't use it, and they talked about it like it was a tool, right,
And that's what Nathan does in this episode. He talks about it like it's a tool. And for me, you know, I knew girls who were, you know, dancers. I knew girls who had grown up with who got into, you know, different lines of work than what I was doing. And I felt conflicted because what they were doing for work was vilified and yet I kissing people on TV and like creating emotions for viewers at home. And so I was like, Oh, is what I'm doing a version of that?
Is it like a PG version of that? You've mentioned that before. Just sorting that out it was really confusing for me because I'm like, there's all these naked people on Game of Thrones and that could be pornographer. You know, like there's sex scenes in all sorts of movies, and so how do we differentiate from porn to what we as actors are doing and like the manipulation of people's emotions and pleasure centers like what you're talking about, but
understanding that in porn, those are real people. They're not a tool. Those are young women, young men who we don't know how they got into this line of work. If it was something that they chose for themselves, fantastic,
If they like what they're doing, fantastic. There is a percentage of people who have been applied into that trade, and so a huge percentage, and that was that was really frustrating for me as a young person to hear someone talk about them like they're just tools, you know, I think, you know, there's been a big conversation nationally
about only fans um and that's people. There's a lot of people on their creating their own content that they're in total control of, which is very, very different than what porn looked like in two thousand four when when we were doing this episode, you know, it was a very different industry. Well, and since you know, porn became this multibillion dollar annual, you know, top earning global industry, we've also had conversations about it. I mean, we've we've
examined it. We've started to see groups of women beginning to make what they define as very feminist porn as the antithesis of the kind of porn that Hailey caught Nathan watching because the stuffy Nathan's looking at it like growdy, Yeah, and and the idea you know, women said, well, if it's only going to be done through this male lens, that's really dangerous to us, then we have to make
our own, and so I doesn't. I guess. Still, though, my question is, does it still create the same problem, you know, because you're still it's still the chemical reaction of your activating the reward center of your brain and cheapening, cheapening it continually until you don't need another person there. It's just I feel like that there's no other road end, there's no other end to that road except that it's
got to negatively impact your intimacy at some point. I don't know the answer, and I think it's really healthy for us to admit that, and so I also admit that it's conflicting. I mean, I know, like a sexual people that don't want to have sex with anybody and are like I just want to watch my porn and be alone and not great, Like, yeah, that's fine, But
teenagers are a different deal. Yeah. And there are people who heal from sexual trauma by rediscovering that they have intimate desire, whether that's feeling something or working with you know, even all the way to working with sexologists with doctors who help them do this work. Um. There are so many versions. But but I think you hit on something really important, Joy, which is the notion of addiction. If
porn becomes like a slot machine, something's wrong. If anything becomes the thing you can't get through your day without. And it still didn't explain why, like Peyton's punk and disorderly site was mixed in with all the porn you know, like, well if it does it does any work? Yeah, he doesn't really have to own up to anything. I wonder if he will in the next episode. I don't think
he does. I feel like maybe we touch on it once, but I think it ended sort of um at a draw, because that was the best that I could get in my fight with the boys that we're writing this stuff. Um. Which also, by the way, looking back now as an adult, wouldn't they value a young woman in her early twenties opinion about who women women feel about pornography? Why? Why would they not welcome that? Why did I have to fight tooth and nail? I was went home crying. I
was like it was constant arguments with them about everything. Joy, Why do you have to be so difficult? Why can't you just do what you're being asked to do. It's in the script. Just show up and say that's the problem is they look at you and they go, we hired you to act, And it's like, no, you hired me to be a person. Yeah, I'm such to embody this whole person. Yeah, you you hired me to find the truth on the page. You want me to make a real person? No one, you know, they always pull
stuff from real life. I want to know which of the found their stash. And they were like, we have to normalize this. Let's make Nathan the likable one. Now do it. Right, so far, we'll make the cute kid do it. But he did have pictures of Peyton and that was something else, wasn't it? And they were recist, they were they were recents. That's what I'm realizing because in my brain, I gotta be honest. When we watched it, I was like, well, she used to be his girlfriend.
But when you just said punk and disorderly was in the search history, WHOA that changes everything? And and and like Hayley had just gone to Peyton to get advice, Like that's the double whammy is It's like, oh, this is the girl I'm confiding in and you're you're still looking at her camera, which had been down for like a month. She had just turned it back on. Oh man, wait, why don't we know their recent Are we sure those
weren't photos from before? Because mixed in with the shop because at the top of the episode, remember we all cringe because Patin was like, oh, I forgot that. Cameras shouldn't change in front of that. But mixed in you see a shot of Peyton wearing like the shirt that she just worn within the shower shots. Um, so they're all like, uh, they're from the same day. It's like a recent day. It's super gross. Um yeah, it's it's gross. And I wish that that had been addressed to I mean,
it was baby, you could only fight so many fights. Yeah, I know. That's a pretty wild one though, to let slide well it was also this is also why it was important to me that I didn't throw a fit when I when Hayley saw those things, because I think that was the stereotype they were looking for, was the how dare you? Like? I gave you my heart and if that's not enough for you, then I'm out enough
for you. Slam the door, you know, because that's what they the people who are writing this stuff with their perspective of women growing a fit, hysterical god and hysterical. Oh my god, that's the one to punch over here. You played it, honestly, Joy, I can't tell you enough. You played it so well and the changes that you made were so appropriate. That is a verbatim conversation that could happen right now, you know, like it was important
then and it's important now. And you created a new normal for girls to have boundaries because that also I talk about my version of feminism, which is like I'm not sleeping with anybody, like if you want to get this, good luck, you know. And that was always my version of feminism because at that time there were there was a male initiative to create this new wave of like I'm a free girl. It was the girl's gone wild,
it was the maxim stuff. It was the victorious secret like angels parades, you know, Like there was this version of feminism that was being sold to us that was like, hey, if you want to be empowered, you should be loose like boys, Like you should screw around like boys and be super sexual like boys. That'll make you equal, and
it's always made me so uncomfortable. And so Haley is a time traveler now coming in with that perspective of like, no, no, this is precious, Like what you're looking at right here is precious. It deserves more, earn it. And I'm glad my daughter has a Haley in her life. It's awesome. I dated a guy once that um when we first started going out. He used to have these. He thought it was tasteful, um photos of like it was like
a model basically naked models on the wall. Wait. He had them in his house, in his house, in the kitchen. It's so gross. And I kept being like, you have to take these down. This is so like, what are you eighteen years old? Take these down? Why are they anyway? It should have been a red flag, but it's fine. And so what I did was I ended up. He wouldn't take him down. He was really fighting for his I don't know whatever. So I ordered off Amazon a giant poster of a guy in the ocean with his
brief song but his enormous was obviously visible. They can't handle it, they can't handle I hung. I hung this giant poster right over the toilet in my house. Every time he went to the bathroom he had to sit there and stare at it. Yeah. Yes, eventually it worked. That's genius. I mean, it's it's an awkward conversation to have, but with your partner, it is an important conversation to have. Yeah,
you got to talk about this stuff, Nathan. I don't love his reaction to this at all, but we know that he's still dealing with Maybe it's their way of showing that he's still got a little bit of Dawn in him, you know, because you do very deb You're like, I'm going to be low tones. I'm going to escalate the situation, you know, but I will leave you in me. But I will leave you and take all your money out.
You can keep the trophy. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that even though we you know, we kind of landed on a fuzzy you know, where wishwash with with Nathan on that, at least I feel strong about where Haley ended up and that she set her boundary and said a good example, And you know, I'm proud of that. I had actually completely forgotten about this episode and when I started as soon as she was on the computer and saw that, I went, oh my god, it's the porn episode. I
forgot about this. How is this going to go? And I'm I'm happy to say, I'm really proud of our work. So you did a really good job, handful. If you're gonna watch porn, watch porn generated by women that actually teach you how to pleasure a woman, because all that was out in two thousand four that was fake. Like, girls, don't dream like that, guys, it's not real. Um, all those noises and like the huffing and puffing and stuff. I'm just like, what, let's maybe quit with all the weird,
creepy violent porn too. Let's like, oh, let's find a little intimacy, back to intimacy please. Oh girls, I love talking about everything with you. It's pretty. So there was girl talk in the cafe with Deb getting her divorce papers and Karen oh that's right, and Deb admitting she was sad. It was beautiful. I get it, Like he did that narcissist thing that Joy pointed out last episode where it was like, I made you want me back.
I left the watch at the house, you know, like she brings it to him and such a snyde remark like maybe it's painted like she's up institute. I ate it so gross for her to still be sad after that. That's what I hate. Like that should have been nail in the coffin, Like my god, it was after that. Yeah, it's just that's the nature of it. You don't get involved with somebody like that and and be and stay with them for almost twenty years I guess eighteen years, uh,
sixteen years. You don't do that without the push and pull being something that you're addicted to. And even though you may know it's good that you're separating from that, you still chemically you're you're still attached and emotionally, you know, you still there's a part of you that you're going to be sad not to have the things that did feel good. Yeah, well Keith is going through that in
this episode. It was the most heartbreaking line of the show was when he says to Karen, you got what you wanted, and Lucas got what he wanted, but what about me? You know, it sucks because he'll never be Lucas's dad. Yeah, it was so honest the way he delivered that line, just it was so vulnerable and real and and a valid point and not trying to be selfish and not trying to say, oh, did I get out of it? I didn't get anything out of this, you know. No, it's really like, but honestly, I matter too,
and what about what I need. I've got to take care of myself, which maybe is the first time he's really stood up for himself in many, many, many years, because he's always putting other people first. Yeah, it was really sad. I mean, it's always going to be rubbed in his face that Dan is Lucas's real dad. And you can see he's got this paternal thing in him, like Keith should have a whole, you know, a little basketball team of his own, a little you know, I
don't think basketball is sports, what do we think? Maybe the reason that he doesn't is because he's been in love with Karen all the time, and you know that actually prevented him, Like how many chicks did Keith pass up so he could like stay at home and watch movies with Karen and Lucas exactly what could have been. I'm happy for him that he's going. It's beautiful. It's nice that he's going to have his own space. And I think pretty. It's a it's a major moment when
Lucas says, I want to go with Keith. I need what he needs. They both need to get out of Dance Scott's shadow. Yeah, they do. And what was the reasoning for that? Like, do you remember why why Chad had to leave? What is he doing a movie or something? You know, it's funny to watch these episodes. No, dude, they're setting up the cliffhanger for the finale. He's probably gonna play the playoff game and then leave town the playoff and that one he said, but he's like, I
gotta leave, Like, but those Sparks. How to play the Sparks? What about the playoffs? And Jake is leaving, They're gonna lose the playoffs. They lose Jake, they lose Lucas, they lose the game. Oh my gosh, they have to lose the game because Dan's coaching. Right, Yeah, they've got to listen. Jake is leaving because George Clooney swept in and you know, thanks a lot, Clooney. I could have had a great
little romance arc and you ruined it. Um. I also didn't like the Peyton's dad and Jake standing on the wharf kind of looked alike, like they had the same like floppy hair and like they were like they just kind of had the same broad shoulders, and it was like, this is like a daddy complex, this is this is uncomfortable.
I liked it. It felt right. It felt like they were right for each other because you know, mirrors in a way that the only man who's been there for her in her life her dad, and there's like a connection. I thought it was sweet. I know. I remember filming that day and like genuinely being upset, like, well, what do you mean you're not coming back? Like, oh, you're gonna go Cape. I was upset. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I was upset, and I think, oh, oh,
that's what they were doing too. He had a whole camera crew that came and followed him around because they wrote our show into the HBO show. What was it even called? Because it was like a made an American light? No, it was Project green Light project. But wasn't it called know How to Make It in America? Scrpted show? But the Project green Light thing was about an actor like trying to make it and it was it was Greenberg, but it was also a little like heightened to make him, Yeah,
he's going to have to come and explain himself. Um. But they filmed, and I was all nervous because we've done our MTV true life like documentary and we were fine to be ourselves elves, but like this was HBO. This was like a very deal and like, okay, you two just talk and make it normal. And I'm like, but it's not normally. It's leaving like everything you're sad. I hope we get to talk about it with him soon. We're the season finale next week. Can you believe we're
at the end of season one? I can't. This has been so fun girls. I'm like, I'm so excited that we get to dive back in. But I guys understanding how people can binge the show because what took us a year to create, Like, I feel like we watched it in like a blit for sure, Sarah asks. As much as I loved all the romantic relationships and the friendships between the girls, the most compelling relationship to me was the relationship between Lucas and Nathan. I found it
so special. That's cool. What are your thoughts on the development of the brotherhood and friendship over the course of the series. M a nice question. It is nice. Well, I agree, it's hard to say anything beyond what we've seen, for you know, I haven't seen it, but but I love where we're getting up to this point. Anyway, at the end of season one, to have had this conflict, in this pain and then they'll they'll start to get out of it, and then they fall back into their
old patterns. And now I feel like we're really in the moment where these two boys begin to find a real friendship, especially this week with Lucas saying I finally am seeing how it is for Nathan with Dan. There's there's um, there's recognition, and I think that's a really beautiful foundation for any any friendship, especially one born out of conflict. Yeah, the sibling relationship is so complex. I mean, I have a lot of siblings, and what we're seeing
in this season is appropriate. You're going to go through seasons where you really really get a lot, and you're going to go through seasons where you're like, oh my god, how did we grow up in the same house? You know, and so to see Lucas and Nathan do that you know, episode to episode. It keeps me on my toes because I don't know, you know, the whole porn thing could have been a trigger for Luke to be like, you are a bad guy. Um. I think his carousel activity
prohibited him from being too judgmental. Uh yeah, I mean it's it's good to see then be able to confide in each other because the only two people on the planet that know what it's like to be Dan Scott's kids are those too. Yeah, and that's going to continue
to hold them together. That's going to be a thread that binds them no matter where they go or what they um, what they go through in life, They're always going to have this mutual I mean, trauma bon trauma, hate that, but they also have the there what they're gaining from this is the shared experience of growing past. They need they it seems that they've actually really needed each other in order to heal from the trauma and pain that Dan has caused both of them. And and
so maybe that's she's right. I think Sarah's right. The magic in the show is the story of redemption that we've you know, stories of redemption that we always see and look for. Here that they needed each other and that's the key. They were the key, the two of them for each other. Yeah, it's beautiful. I like in this episode that Nathan pretty much defends Karen. He's like, Lucas wants to be an optimist, like we could have teamed up against him, and Nathan's like, no, no, dude,
Like no, I would have hated each other. We would have war. Yeah, idealistic because you weren't here. I was here. Trust Terrible is always google. All right, we got another question from Brianna. She says, you've talked a lot about the other teen dramas that were popular when you started filming One Tree Hill. What other teen dramas have you watched? You've been a fan of Old or New. Also, if you could be on any other teen drama, old or New, what would it be? That is a good question. Felicity.
You were on Felicity, Oh yeah, for an episode. But Felicity was like, that was the show we were all I mean, we were all watching that, right, Felicity was a big deal. Also, my so called life, so called life, you guys, my favorite show of all time ever ever is Freaksing Geeks. I just it is my favorite. It's the most honest depiction of this tender age that I've
ever seen on TV. Like Linda Cardelini's character, I felt in my bones because I wanted to hang out with like the bad boys, but I was also like a straight a student and doing student government and the awkward stuff that she has to deal with in that show. I was just like, thank God, thank god this exists somewhere, and I feel so cheated that there were only two seasons of it. I know, I know, it kills me.
I still hold out hope that one day they'll do show like we were still waiting for give us what we want. All right, let's spin the wheels, spin it. We still need a theme song. Which fan is going to write us a spin the wheel theme song? Yeah, get on it. Oh my gosh, do it? So who's most likely to go skinny dipping? Now? I mean in real life? Herself? Also like done it there. I only need a place where there's no strangers and like just friends and just friends. I don't mind strangers. Oh I do.
Oh my god, I just like spit all my I did. I literally did the thing. Listen. I was skinny dipping for the first time. Senior year beach week, and the boys found out and they came and they stole our clothes, and so I had to walk no towels, no clothes. Was like two o'clock in the morning. I had to and just like hope that there's no one away. Did you did you grab some leaves off a tree or something? What did you do? Do you know? Do you know
what I found? Um, somebody's kid had left like a Mickey Mouse T shirt like size to tea at the pool, right, And so I grabbed this tea because it was like a community pool in like the area of the beach where we're saying around this little kids, and I figured I needed to cover up my business with that, and then armed to cover my boobs. And I was like everyone's seen butts, and so it was a very precarious. You didn't step into it. No, it was a two tea.
Joy John would have crafted a whole outfit. She's like, this is a scene ripper. I'll just bite it with my teeth and make it a skirt. Oh my god, yeah, Skinny Dippen. Now. But there's time, friends, there's there's always time. That'll be our next lee party. I can't wait if you guys join us next week, We've got the season finale. It's episode number twenty two. The games that play us Season one finale. I can't even believe it. This was the first time we thought we were going to get canceled.
So the playoffs, everybody, We're going go Ravens. All right, you guys have a great week, have a good one, but they Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O t H or email us at Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time. We are all about that high school drama.
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