Hindsight is 20-23 • EP414

girl fashion. But you'll tough, girl. You could sit with us Girl drama, Queens, drama, Queen's drawn, mc queen's drama, John McQueen's drama, Queen's So if you tell them what episode we just watched, friends, family, even foes at home, We've just watched for all of you hate listening to all of you who hate it, We've watched Season four, episode fourteen, Sad Songs for Dirty Lovers. The irony that this episode aired on freaking Valentine's Day in two thousand

seven is not lost on me. Oh this was Valentine's Day? Yes, how is that? Alright? Alright? Valentine's Days and seven. Hailey confronts Brooke regarding the stolen calculus test. Lucas and Peyton considered taking their relationship to the next level. Peyton and Brook finally finally grow closer, thanking God uh, and then, in Deb's absence, Nathan throws a senior party at the Scott House where a sex tape from Nathan's past surfaces. Our director was Janice Cook. She was beam old director

on the show that we were very fond of. She was good at parties. I feel like she really like handled this. She did a great job. High school party. Man, it did God. I don't even know where to start. I mean, I guess, well, here's what I want to know. What did you do to piss the writers off? Because between Brooks stealing the test and then like boldly just lying about it to her best friend Um, and then Brooke with this doozy of a sex tape. I mean,

no spoilers here, we all know what happened. What you do? They made you the bad guy in this episode. I don't know, man. You know it's interesting because the the stealing of the test, and you know, having everything you want so close that you can almost touch it, and

then having something threatened. I like the dramatic foil and I like I like in a way that as Brooke is trying to be a better version of herself, Rachel kind of pushes her into you know, three years ago Brooke Like, I like the push and pull of it. I like that she feels stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've certainly been there when when you're a part of something and you don't really know. I mean, this is granted her being fully you know of the

guilt here, like they stole that test together. But I've witnessed people that I love do things that aren't great and not known where it's my place to speak up or not. And so I guess in that way where you kind of go like, I don't know if I should say anything. Maybe maybe I should just stay on the periphery, which at this stage in my life I

don't think is the best course of action. But in our early twenties, I mean, God, we got really trained to be such people pleasers, to always be good on set, to never have a problem, to never you know, never, never be the squeaky wheel. And so I think those were the ways I really related to Brooke in this position of I don't want to hurt Haley and I don't want to get Rachel in trouble, and I don't want to lose my future and and maybe if I can just white knuckle it over the line, it'll all

be okay. Is it really a big deal? Anyway, you know, all the lies you tell yourself and then so it's like that that I can kind of get. But man, when I read that tape, see, I was like, I'm not doing it, and they were like, you're doing it, and I was like, I'm not doing this. I will not do this. James had to talk me off alledge and like we've talked a lot y'all about how this was sort of the year that like our baby James grew up and he was like, it's all gonna be okay,

I'm gonna take care of you, don't worry. So like he really came in like a boy scout, and I was like, I don't want to do this. Man, I was so upset. I thought it was so unforgivable. And then no spoiler alert exactly. But the thing is that for the fans at home who know what episodes coming next, there's the flashback to the night that this happens between Brooke and Nathan and the episode opens on you know, sophomore year or whenever this was supposed to be junior

year with Peyton being in such a mood. And I don't know if you remember, but you say two of the meanest things I've ever heard of humans say, first to Nathan and then to Brooke and basically they're like her, and they like drunkenly have sex as revenge even though she's broken up with him. And when episode four fifteen aired, they cut it all out, so it just looks like what I don't remember this. Yes, they cut the awful things that Peyton says to Broke, which I'll tell everyone

abou next week. They caught him and it, and I remember watching the episode on TV and crying and I was like, you've made her. Yeah, I was like, you've made her unforgivable. It does a little like character assassination. It's episode, man, I don't know. Our boss was probably pissed because he tried to grab my ass again and I told him to go himself, so he made me pretend to have sex with Nathan instead. I mean, not

a bad trade, my dude. Honestly, James Lafferty is a gentleman, So you know, if you had to pick one, you'd always go to that side. If you're going to go down swinging cool. This episode gave be tremors. I've got my kids, you know, like we're hiding out here in North Carolina. I'm at the scene of the crime. I'm back Carolina and it's just cham and I rolling around the whole episode and You're like getting out for my kids walk in and I'm like, be cool, be cool,

calm down, babies. There was so much talk in this episode about out sex, like let's do the damn thing between, you know, between Brooke and not Chase and Brooke and Nathan and Peyton and Lucas and Mouth and Shelley and who else is having sex not having I mean, Dan's coming on to Karen, pushing that button, and so we talk about love. All I could think it was like when I was a seer in high school. I was like, I'm getting the out of here. I don't love anybody,

like a different person every weekend. So this idea that like teenagers are so fixated on finding like the great, big, huge love of their life was like funny for me this episode. I enjoyed the novelty of I have to be with someone. I think I get that, And maybe it's because I went to an all girls school, so I didn't I didn't really have the luxury of like, oh, everybody's just kissing everybody. It was like, who's your person?

Because we were just watching ron coms and you know, so I think that I think that we were much more um in the world of TV fantasy and oh man, senior problem was such a big deal, and what was going to happen when we go off to college. We're going to stay together? Right? Like everybody really was in this heightened sort of sense of reality that you see in our show, which is probably because we had no reality.

We were just copying what we were watching on TV. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I talked a lot about our show created a new normal, uh, in certain effects for the generation of girls that were watching it when they were in high school. Um, do you know anyone from your pack of friends that married or is still with the person that they were with when you were you know, going to problem? I have three, but not from my school lunch but you know yourself, man, it's

a different deal. Yeah, not from my school. My girlfriend Amanda, who lives in Chicago is with her middle fool sweetheart. One of my best friends, Alicia, who you've hung out with in New York, is married to her I mean junior high sweetheart. You know at thirteen. He carved their initials in a tree at summer camp. That's really cute. And then yeah, I've got one other girlfriend who was so in love with this boy she went to church with and they were together, and then in college they weren't,

and then they wound up getting back together and getting married. Um. And then my baby cousin, my cousin Shelby is married to her her high school sweetheart. But they're all from like one Pasadena, one Texas, one Chicago, won New York. Like, yeah,

they're all over the place. I love when I go home that so many of my classmates are still with the person that they went to prom with or you know that they were dating during football season, you know, and their weddings were all super super fun because it was a high school reunion. Um. Yeah, I just I don't know why I can accept in real life. But then when I see it on TV to love these kids love, it's likest to me. Maybe it's because I'm in a parental situation now where I'm like, honey, don't

lock yourself in, go be free, explore. Yeah, they're like, it's all ridiculous, And the thing is, in most of the world sort of statistically it is, but I do think you're You're in that really interesting moment right where you're desperate to leave the nest, but you've also known

nothing else. You think you're an adult, but really you're a child, and you know you you want to adultify yourself, and being in love, being independent when you're about to go to college feels like a big way to, you know, mark the territory of your identity. I'm an adult. No one embodied that better than Leonora's in this episode. God, it's so in love with Shelley after having dated Gigi for the last couple of months, and just and I

appreciated that because it was real. That was real, like that boy wants to be love, he wants to lose his V card, he wants to go to college and be able to, you know, be a man. I'm a man, you know what I have to say? Though, made me sad because to your point, Lee acted this episode beautifully. He put real emotion into what he was given, the

words on the page, he made them real. And something that I appreciated watching it now that I don't think I appreciated when the episode aired was that this was really the first time you were seeing a boy say I'm crazy about you and I don't know what to do about it, and I I, I'm not pushing you away, You're pushing me away. And I don't understand. Yes, I want to be with you. Am I not supposed to? You know? But but he's not saying in those sentences, you know, I want to be with you, So why

do you care? He's not doing that gross trope. But but I have this real letdown, And I can tell in the way that some of those scenes jump that they were edited down, so I know there's dialogue missing, which I think does a real disservice to the conversation Mouth and Shelly are having. And I think they really made Mouth and Shelley's story in this episode. They put it firmly in the B storyline space when it should

have had an A storyline. Yeah, absolute clarly because it makes it by by shrinking the amount of time they're on screen together. They have conflated uh, desire and confusion. They've conflated Mouth believing he's being rejected because he's not enough, which is his core wound, with Shelly not knowing how to communicate that she her core wound is that she's afraid that if she has sex again, everything will come

crashing down. So instead of having this really interesting experience where he could get vulnerable about feeling like he's never chose in and she could say, all I want to do is choose you, but I don't think I can choose you without choosing myself, and they could get somewhere really kind, the they rushed it, and and they made his expressions of his own vulnerability read as being completely manipulative of her. And all too often we see boys pressure girls into sex. And I've seen that scene a

million times. I don't feel like that's what was on the page here, but they kind of edited something that felt vulnerable into something that felt manipulative, and it kind of has a foot in each world, and I really don't like the result. Well, I mean that probably is reality, you know, Like I appreciate that we saw a boy crying about sex, That's what I mean. Like his vulnerability

is beautiful. American Pie came out when we were in high school, dude, and like I remember being at parties where people wanted to watch it and just be you so kind of creeped out because I was like, I'm still a virgin? Is this the way you boys talk behind our backs? And really weird it out because all my guy friends were laughing at it, and they were like, yeah, you know whatever. Well, yeah, I had just the summer before season four, I'd gone up to Canada to shoot

John Tucker Must Die. And the scene where we watch all the boys in that movie talking about you know, the lead girl, Kate Brittany Snow, They're like chanting on Corker and porker Corker and like it's disgusting, and and that was, to your point, all of our representations of how the virginity. Yeah, and and so I guess that's why I feel bummed, because this was like, this was a boy really saying like, I don't know if I'm

attractive to you. I don't know if you feel the way about me at that I feel about you, and I'm I'm I have all these emotions and all these feelings, and of course I wanted to be you, but they like they cut it off, and I wanted more of that honesty for both of them, and what I what I feel like we wound up with with something where a lot of people watched this and when I feel like he pressured her into sex and that that really

feel it feel guilty? Man, Yeah, it felt guilty, And that's not what Lee was performing, No, Like, yeah, is he the first male character on our show that we're seeing lose his virginity? Yeah? Like, I mean I love that he played it as emotional as he did, because had he been any other dude, he would have been like firm with her, like you've led me on and blah blah blah. And Insteadily does it with tears in his eyes and it's like legitimately confused. So kudos to

him for nail on it. But um, it did feel like a guilt thing, like, fine, I gave you the thing that you wanted. Can you leave me alone now? And by the way, I've done that in real life in my youth, just like, fine, you've pressured me of giving you the thing that you wanted. Can we stop? Like, can you just stop calling me? And it's the I threw up, you know, like it's the grossest feeling as

a woman to be pressured into that. And God, I just like, thank god we got Liz to do it, I know, because she's so good and she's just so, and I protect her. I think what made it hard is because they were both so good, they put so much into it, they gave it a nuance. But I think I just I had the real feeling that some of that nuance wound up on the cutting room floor because the episodes have to be cut for time. And what was odd to me was that it wasn't a

clear cut case of like he guilt tripped her. She was like, I want it. I want it so bad. I want it so bad I can't be around you. And look, if i'm around you, I'm going to have sex with you, and then I have to run away from you because sex is shameful, you know, she said. He says, I know you're a clean teen, and she says, I'm the clean teen. So what we're getting at is that Shelley has built an identity for herself that she's

afraid to lose. And that's interesting, but we don't go past one quick reference to it, and and it's like it's like she's a secret. Basically, they made this whole thing like he thinks she isn't attracted to him, and she's in fact a secret infomaniac who has to run away because sex is bad and it's like, what the what is this? And I can't even look at you. I can't even look at you, I can't be next

to you. It just made me feel sad because they're both such talented actors, and I wanted more of the vulnerability. I wanted more of him thinking he knew what she was saying, and her not being able to say what she needed to say, and then having a tete a tete in that manner until they got to a point where they both got vulnerable and got to say, no, that's not it. It's that I am um fill in

the blank. Yeah, Like I wanted that. Well to your point, I I loved the line at the beginning of the episode where Mouth literally says it's about them, the clean teens, and then it cuts to a shot of all the kids in their T shirts. But that that's very real. Like my identity was so wrapped up in my virginity in high school because I was like, I'm the good girl,

I'm the girl that like follows all the rules. That when I went away to college and came home and was not a virgin anymore, I felt like everyone was going to judge me and I completely lost my sense of self. And so that feeling of trial by the jury of your peers when you're forming your identity is there's so much there. And we made a snack instead of a meal. Yeah, I've been a delicious meal. Yeah, I just I really wanted that storyline to be given its due rather than to be just in the slide

show of scenes at a party. Mm hm. You know, speaking of other b storylines that should have been A storylines. We have to dissect Dan and Karen because why am I nostalgic for their high school years? Like I know, also I love well two things. As soon as you said nostalgic for their high school years, I'm like, God, yeah, that shot at them in the yearbook, Gorge. I want more of that. I wanted to actually see like a flashback to their prom I wonder if we're going to

get it. But why does Dan just walk into Karen's house? I just pulled up my notes and at the top of my what is that? Why does he constantly just walk into her house? Trial is weird? Man? No, he's got lucks and like all these women have had terrible things happened to them. And they're just like whatever, doors, we don't even have doors, we just have like tent flaps at the front of our house them all. Um,

he does just walk into her house. And maybe that's to illustrate his level of comfort with her at this point, because since Keith died, he's really been playing that card of does we see oh he says it when they're on there not a date, date, not date. She says, I'm pregnant with your brother's child, and he says, but you're also alone. I want to be the man you turned to. That's an right after that. But also here's what I was thinking about a little bit though. Um,

they're only thirty six years old. Yeah, thirty six or thirty seven? Wait, no, are they even that old, because they're thirty six when the show starts, but every season of the show is every two seasons of the show is one year. But if they were eighteen when they had Lucas and Lucas is now eighteen, that's thirty six. Oh yeah, so they must have been God so they were like thirty five and season one God bless him. So they're like thirty six years old, and that's still

very young. And Karen hasn't. I mean, I guessed what she stated Andy, she stated, Keith, I don't know. There's still um I can understand her level of optimism where this man has hurt her for eighteen years, could it be that she there's redemption there. It's like, if he ends up being a good guy, yeah, absolves her of the poor decision making she made when she was a teenager.

And there's a little bit of like hero complex where it's like a good guy, you know, like not anybody else, you know, nobody else in your life could make you a good guy, but I did. And we all have egos. If I if I was dealing with like a huge attall and I got to behave I'd be really proud of myself. And so I could fully understand why Karen

is like okay. It's also one of the number one ways that manipulators and narcissists do what they do is they look at you and they say, yeah, I know I've I know I've been a bad guy, but you make me want to be different. Yeah, listen, I'm as I'm a sucker for that, Sophia, I love it. I'm like, tell me more. The entire decade of I've had phases in all my decades of that. Let's just let's leave it at that. But that's the thing is is someone who says, I've behaved badly because I've never felt safe.

I've behaved badly because no one's ever really loved me. I've behaved badly because I grew up in a terrible environment. You make me feel safe, you make me want to change, you make me realize I can be the man I want to be. That is seductive as hell. Yeah, I get it. If I'm Karen and handsome Dan is buying my son tuxedos and like he is showing up with consistency. This isn't once in a while. It is this man walking into her house every other day. And we watched

it over the course of the last what six episodes. Um, he is consistently like, you're great, I'm here, I'm saying the right words. I totally understand. But I'm frustrated with myself as a viewer that I'm falling for it. I know. But it's also really interesting because you realize how easy it is. In a moment, you forget your memories, you forget the past. You know, It's like what so many of my girlfriends you included, have talked about with having kids,

where you're like, yeah, childbirths insane. If you remembered it, you'd never do it again. You block it out. Like Karen has all these terrible memories with Dan, But here he is, day after day, we after weeks, showing up being the best version of himself. But but hold on, let's pause there for a second. Does she have terrible memories with Dan because it seems like there was a vacuum.

It seems like there was an absence, right, So rather than her interacting with him on a regular basis like Deb did over the course of the last eighteen years, Dad's had an eye fall, Right, Karen just had sixteen years of nothing and had to hypothesize what he might be up to or what kind of parent he might be. And so maybe that absence is actually working in his favor right now because she doesn't have all of the experience the Deb has, who has clearly still struggling. That's

a great point. That's a really great point because Karen's pain points with Dan are a long time ago, and yeah, there have been things, you know, him trying to get in the way when Lucas joined the team. I'm sure there were times when Lucas was a kid and Dan would refuse to pay for things. You know, there was that whole thing about how she never took any child support from him. But I would imagine that there was some sort of battle that got them there. Maybe maybe

maybe not. I mean, he's one of those chicks that was like, you know what, you I'll figure it out. It might have been nature abhors a vacuum, it will fill it. Well, if there's a vacuum. What a what an empathetic person does is say, oh god, I made all these assumptions over sixteen years. I didn't approach Dan, and look how wonderful he's been right now? Did did I rob my son of an opportunity? Did I rob my son of this relationship? And so, yeah, he's just working.

That is, he's working. The way has never been more charming, has never been more charming, has never been more magnetic. And not only does she witness the way he's being with Lucas in front of her, she sees him giving Lucas advice and a person to confide in. I guess doesn't see him. Rather, I should say here's She hears it through the door. She hears them forming their own relationship, Dan saying, hey, I see you like no one else

can see you. It'll be our secret. He's creating a sort of avenue where Lucas can confide in him and where he can have a parental male figure in his life. And Karen is listening to that. And then in they come with the door and dad bought his kid a tucks and it's all it's very sweeping, lee romantic. Oh god. When he's asked her to prom and she's like, are you asking me to prom? And like flustered, she's pumped, pumped.

It feels good. We can feel Karen's relief almost because if you fall for an assult, it makes you second guess every decision you make, whether it's personal or professional. But if that ends up coming around and you can write it off as like that was a bad chapter for him, but what was real, what I saw was real. I was right. There's just a relief because it means you're not crazy. It means you weren't duped, that you

saw something that actually existed. And I feel so bad for mm hmm, deb deb it is it is a wild thing, and you know, I have to say, there are things that just don't age well. The way that Nathan speaks to Debb about her alcoholism, which again was written for the character to say, is so upsetting to me. Him calling it a weakness and saying it is not a disease when we literally know that addiction is a disease. It's so dismissive and cruel, and it's like, why did

he even hager to visit her that day? Well, and by the way, maybe it's all to set up that he says to Haley, I think I was too hard on my mom, so Haley can say, well, why don't we move in with her, Let's be the martyrs, let's be the heroes, let's help. You know. Maybe they thought, well, he's really got to be terrible to Debb if he if he's going to vent about it to Haley. But man, that that was hard. Yeah, Yeah, that was really difficult to watch because it's not like it's not like he

showed up and he was dismissive of her excuses. It's not like she was like I'm so sorry, so sorry, and he was just like, uh, you know, which is probably more what a teen boy would do. He showed up with like things he wanted to say, and they cut to the quick, like he said hurtful things. Hayton's mom had an illness. You're just weak, yeah, you said it. You were like, that's Dan Scott's son. Yeah, that's some

Dan Scott level manipulation. And it was very I was very taken aback to see it from Nathan, and I think it was hard. You know, as we were talking about it when the episode was on, you also said, because I expressed my frustration that he was demeaning the severity of what alcoholism is, and you said, he's also demeaning the abuse she has survived. Yeah, because she's an

abuse survivor. It goes it goes back and forth with Nathan a lot, where like one minute he's team Mommy, where he's like, Mommy, we've survived Dan and his wrath and the reign of terror, and then the next minute he like letely forgets and it's like, oh, is your life so hard living in that big, expensive house with you know, like whatever, I don't believe that came out

of that kid's mouth. No, it's wild and and the irony, I mean, I know, there's a lot of time between two thousand and seven and now, but the irony of all the things we've learned. Do you remember that study that came out that said, yeah, look, money can buy you safe right now that I don't because you're the data nerd. Oh my god, Okay, I'm sorry, but this

is actually really interesting. There's a study that came out a couple of years ago that talked about, like, you know, everyone always says money can't buy happiness, and it's like, well, yeah, but money can buy you security, it can buy you experience, as it can buy you healthcare, and those things are

all great. But they've actually proven that money makes an incremental difference in your year, in your life up to the threshold where you take home seventy grand a year, Like the difference between taking home forty grand a year and seventy grand a year is a big, big difference. Past seventy grand a year into multimillions. They they've proven that money doesn't make you any happier, which I find

really interesting. And there's a you know, it's like cliches or cliches because they're True's why we say them all of time. And so if money can't buy you happiness. How interesting to look at someone like Deb and even someone like Nathan, who have every privilege human beings could possibly be afforded, and they're both suffering, and mother and son are both suicidal, and you can have this conversation about abusive relationships and how success is the illusion and

what's really going on behind the scenes. And here is a kid we've talked about this all season. Nathan is on suicide watch. He's been crying out for help, and then his mother has a suicide attempt and he walks in and goes, really, mom, suicide. Thanks for the note.

It felt so out of character for Nathan's journey that I almost feel like in an early version of the script, it was a dance scene and then they decided, because they wanted Haley and Nathan to move in with Deb, that Nathan should go instead, and they just didn't really rewrite the scene. Well, whoever wrote Nathan this episode hasn't been watching all of season four, because yes, he also goes to Lucas when Lucas is at the party, hiding out in the bedroom looking at the picture of Keith,

and he's like, you gotta get over it. Man Keith has gone I meanwhile, he's the one that was haunted by Keith for Infinity episodes. Yes, it's so bizarre. Again, there's there's great stuff in this episode, and I love the we're getting close to graduating and we just one stayed and there's a lot of nostalgia. I love that they threw a party. I love that they threw a party. But but the actual scenes between the characters Molt and Shelley, Nathan and Deb, Nathan and Lucas, they kind of feel

like they don't make any sense. I'm like, who are these people? Has anybody been watching our show? The kids who are not economically well off are significantly happier than the kids who are because Rachel, as you know, she's in a bad place to Peter life, is dealing with a bunch of badge Nathan, You've got Deb, and then like the happy go lucky ones or skills, you know, Karen's having a great time living at a little house,

you know, and Peyton is finally happy. Like the kids who um were part of the river Court scene are, with the exception of Mouths, are seemingly doing much better. And maybe because there's not as much pressure on them, you know what I mean. When you're from a wealthy family and it's like, okay, well what do I do once I'm kicked out of the nest? You know that can be frightening. Yeah, I'm I'm very curious with it, in particular for Rachel because you see what she's doing.

And I love the scene between me and Danille when Brooke chases her out of the party and asks what's been going on and Rachel explains and there's nothing that Brooke can say but thank you, and she means it. Oh, look at you just clutching your chesty cutie. That really got you. It really when Rachel said you're my friend, Brooke, I felt betch and my bones and it was like for Brooke, who is in a battle with her best friend Peyton, and who has just lied to her other

best friend's face, right, and so that feels bad. That feels bad when you're fighting with your friends. You know, nobody likes that to have this girl say to her, I'm willing to sacrifice my future because yours is so bright. You're my friend, Brook, Like, I love them that That was probably my favorite moment of the episode. That was my favorite especially for Brooke, who doesn't feel like people

bet on her. Yeah, well she also feels like it's really easy for people to remove Brooke, you know, and and that can feel bad when it's like, oh, Peyton seems fine without me, and my parents are fine without me, and my ex boyfriend is fine without me, and I moved out of Haley's apartment so Nathan could move back in fine without me, you know, to have someone prioritize you the way Rachel is done. I wish you two

had ended up together. What a cute. Oh my god, I know it would not have been so fun, but it's it's again. It it reinforces the ways that especially I think those two girls are stuck. Brooke is stuck. She doesn't want to hurt Haley, but she doesn't want to hurt Rachel. Rachel knows she got Brooke in trouble, but realizes how much worse it's going to be if Brooke gets caught. Now wants to be Brook's friend and

has finally found a place where she fits in. And you realize the magnitude of this, you know, expulsion when she's putting away her little box from tree Hill High and you see it lined up against all the rest of the schools, and you realize that nobody bets on Rachel either. It happens again and again and again, even if she is self sabotaging, even if she's doing it so that it can't be done to her. It's oh, it's just heartbreaking. She's always like with the exception, I'm

trying to hook up with Nathan. She's always on the moral up and up. Like. I love the character of Rachel because I love an anti hero, you know, little Taylor Swift reference for the kids. I was just gonna ask. I was gonna be like, oh, somebody listened to Midnight? Um do the kids say Bob anymore? I don't kind I like the word. I appreciate an anti hero, and Rachel is, you know, the perfect example of that. And she doesn't try to defend herself to Haley. She takes

the hit. She leaves when she's told to leave like that takes a big person to do the walk away. And I don't I don't think she gets enough credit. You know, great, you guys have your fun. I served my purpose here, I'm out. Yeah. This isn't the end of Rachel, though, is it? Like why should I go. Did they say she's expelled. I thought that's what the principle threatened, but maybe not. I don't know. He like when he's passing out that time, just staring at the

back of your head. I was like, So we had some like when I was in high school, and they don't really do anything about it. Kids, Just so you know, they don't really do anything about it. You can remember, listen, I didn't eat high school. I definitely cheated in college because remember at the beginning of the internet when you could buy papers, Oh my god, I would never what Hillary, I was a v J. I was busy. I was working forty hours a week. I mean, I know you

were busy. I just would never. I wasn't. There was one paper. There was one paper on Gulliver's travels, and I could not do it, and so I bought it online. But it was like at the beginning of the internet, so teachers weren't savvy to just like searching for sentences, right. I definitely bought one paper. Um, and I'm not even

embarrassed about it because that's a dumb book. I just loved writing so much that my senior year in high school, I decided I wanted to take two AP English classes instead of one AP English class and an AP math. I was like, I don't need calculus. This is dumb. I'm going to go to theater by um. So they let me do it. So by the time I got to college, all the seniors were coming to me to be like, will you edit my paper for fill in the blank class? And I was like, yeah, maybe I

bought of your papers. And what I realized, No, I never sold my papers. I edited other people's. But I was like, God, it should have been charging for that. That is like valuable help. I legitimately paid fifty dollars for a paper travel Oh my god. So when I see about Brook cheeting on the test, I just don't care. I don't even care a little bit. I'm like, they graduate, get out of there, very great. I just I wish there was like more emphasis put rather than on your

paper or on your mid term. I wish we put more emphasis on actually learning the information, on the ability to digest complex ideas and think critically and engage in conversation and debate with people. Could you imagine where our political system would be if we could actually just talk to each other instead of being like the answer is B No, it's B man, like it's so dumb. Well, also the fact that you were totally reliant. Brooke was totally reliant on other kids to help her pass this class.

Like where's the teacher my calculus teachers senior year in high school, I did well in the class, but I wasn't an a student and he heard that I wasn't going to take the AP exam at the end of the year because I was taking all these other AP exams and I just didn't feel like failing it. I knew I was going to fail it, and he was like, Hillary, you have to take it. I'm doing after school tutoring sessions. I will personally help you. And Bruce Snyder, God bless

that math teacher. Um made sure that I passed that AP exam, and I felt so good about myself after the fact. But it's the only reason I passed it is because an adult intervened and had Brooke had that experience or instead of being the boy that she's kissing, it's like an adult that sees this kid doesn't have a lot of parental interaction. She's trying, really are she's

the president of this club. You know, if an adult had showed up and been like, baby, I believe in you, and you had to lie to that adult about that, would that would have been That would have been nice. Yeah, Like we had so many good teachers in real life. I wish we'd had good teachers on the show too. And it's weird because every once in a while we

had a great experience and then they would disappear. Even Principal Turner, he's so militant in this episode, and you know, him firing Haley felt so it just felt so unfair. He knows her character. It felt like Haley was a student he'd met for the first time, and for her to be able to say I had a feeling and I checked for my keys and whatever else, it all just felt like a device that I didn't love. I will say the device of joy bitch slapping Danil worked great.

God whoever coordinated that She's done lamb in the key down on the table and wanted it back. And then yeah at Rachel it was so funny, and I loved watching the boys kind of be like damn, Haley. That was a great That was a really great fun and I love the way Antoine dismissed Rachel from the party because it wasn't it wasn't like you belong here. It was just like time to go, mama, you know, like it was firm and safe. And I love the way that that was all handled, and I get why Haley

slapped her. Haley is getting a different set of information than the viewer, and so it's hard to be like, Haley, light up because the first set of information is like this chick is problematic at E three turn. Yeah, well, and she's coming for all of my stability, my husband, my job, my school, my best friend. Yeah, all the things, all the things. I want to talk about Peyton and Lucas because I I mean, I say this all the time, like the fan base is like you never addressed it,

Like we're finally in a great place. I don't love like Peyton Lucas when they're sneaking around, you know, but Peyton Lucas like in a decided relationship, we're going to be together. I love his interactions with Glenda in this episode. I love that Peyton wasn't jealous but was like, what did you get that girl? But that's a little bit of just like, oh do you wanna tell me about it. Yeah, She's like, well, what don't what don't I know he knows that he's lying and doesn't call him out. Yeah,

what I love about it? You know what? It really reminded me of. Um remember early on when Brooke and Lucas are dating and Peyton says give him the CD and Brooke does and she's like, oh, yeah, I track thirteen and he he comes to you and says, there is no track thirteen on this record. Like, I know this is you gave her this. It's a call back to that for me. And the nostalgia is so sweet,

and I can see how much fun you're having. Like I actually made a note about how you know Lucas gave his book to Glenda but didn't tell Peyton it was done, Like what And instead of being upset, she she plays with him. She thinks it's cute. She wants to get in there in a way that is fun. It's not threatened or threatening, and and it goes back in every direction with you two. It feels nostalgic, it

feels sweet, it feels pure. I liked it because, to your point, so many of the relationships on our show are based in threat. It's like someone's gonna find out online. Someone's gonna find out I did this thing. Someone's gonna find out, find out, find out. And Peyton and Lucas, because they were in the friend zone for a long time, have developed this rapport of like I could find out whatever about you. I'm still unto you, you know, like tell me the worst thing you did. I know, you know,

thanks for telling me, but I already know. Um. And there was so much physicality between our characters, you know, like that we've had years of like are they are not? Are they aren't they? You know, stolen kisses, all that kind of bulsh. Once the floodgates were opened, they were just like you two were just gonna sub face like all episode and the fans are gonna love it, so

do that. And I said to you when when Peyton Lucas go upstairs to the bedroom at Nathan's house, I was like, why did they not have sex at Lucas's house where there was like some level of privacy. They're the only to people in the house. He's like, my mom's not coming home. Why did they go to a house party with a people downstairs at her ex boyfriend's house where she used to have sex with him. Yeah,

to finally hook up is just embarrassing. But shooting that scene with my boyfriend and my brother and my boyfriend's dad and his uncle, and like the entire crew that I was related to it for one way or another watching was such a god cringe e. And so Chad

was a great sport about it. He knew how weird it was for me to have the people yelling rolling and cut be the people that I like lived with and so and your actual boyfriend and you're shooting a scene with your TV boyfriend and your actual boyfriend is watching. Oh my god, he's the one yelling rolling. It's a nightmare. I'm so uncomfortable. So they and yell cut. But this is an embarrassing story. I hope Chad doesn't get upset.

I tell the story. There was one point where his beard hair got caught on my brawl and it pulled my bra away a little bit, and Chad freaked out and was just like so sorry, and it ruined the tape. And I was like, look, hey, I don't think anyone saw it, but he was worried that other people saw it and didn't want to play it off, Like I'm like, who saw that? Did anyone's It was so uncomfortable, and he was trying so hard to be like above board, and I'm like, you're making it a big deal, making

it oh my god. Yeah, this is why we have intimacy coordinators now because back then they were just like and go um. But yeah, he was very he was very courteous and yeah, we're just gonna kiss for the next six seasons. But when I liked about it, I liked the tenderness between the two of you in the scene in Lucas's room, and that he is being a bit of a teenage boy who's like, well why not now nobody's coming, And obviously you lean into it because

the mister act is that Brooks going to interrupt. But later, what I really liked that I didn't expect was what they gave to you for Peyton. I loved hearing a girl say I'm glad we waited you know back then, like look at that time, yeah I wanted to hook up with you, and now I'm in love with you now I want all the things you said you wanted. Like it's such a beautiful moment where these two people who couldn't quite get on the same level in their growth are finally right there on the same page. And

I loved it. I thought that it was so I don't know, it was just lovely. Like when we were watching the scene, I went, oh my god, that was so nice. I really like that for you two together. Well, our scene, listen, we knew what was coming at the end of the episode. Your anxiety spoiled, spoiled the surprise. But the scene that we had when Brooke comes into Lucas's room and interrupts them hooking up, Like, God, how

uncomfortable her and Peyton get to connect again. God, it's exactly what you want to see between two teen girls, where it's grace and it's like, I love you. Basically, what that scene is is these two girls saying I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you. It's hard, but I love you. And that's the subtext for every single line that scene. Yes, I mean Brooks saying tell me what I have to do so you're comfortable. Isn't I love you? And Peyton saying they're just my drawings?

You made them into something. Isn't I love you? And they they're giving each other these gifts of I want you to have whatever you want, and it's so it's so nice. Well, and Peyton's addressing like there's no beating around the bush. She's like, I love him, and I don't want me loving him to hurt you, you know, like, let's just be grown ups and talk about it. We don't even do that. No, these girls had it all

figured out well. But what's so what I loved about it and what felt really honest about it, even though their teens, is because they've been in this tumult. I got the sense that Peyton's said that to herself over and over again, you saying, yes, Brooke, I love him, but I never wanted my love for him to hurt you. You have, you have distilled all your complicated feelings into that sentence. You've gone, you know what it is, and it's like you've been waiting to give it to me.

She practices it in the car. Do you practice conversations in the car? Uh? I'm more as like a as a quirky, anxious person. I'm more re refight so like I had a fight, you know, I had an argument like six years ago with some like idiot I was dating, and and now I'm like, oh, what I should and said, like, after all these years of therapy and all the books I've read, I have the perfect answer. And then I'm like, well that felt fun, and then it's over, Like I

don't really practice before I probably should. I didn't know that they were who didn't practice before. I didn't know that there were people that like don't talk it out with themselves before they talk it out with other people. And I'm driving in the car with my daughter having a conversation in the rear view mirror and George should who are you talking to? Oh my god? And I got called out by my kids. I was like, damn it, that's embarrassing. Now I love that, but I love that

you're having fights from six years ago. I'm like, oh, what I should have said? Can you call me next time that happens? Oh? Absolutely, I've even done it with Like you know you know this because you were a VJ, Like you get caught live on the air and someone asked you something really shitty and you're live, there's nothing you can do about it. Like what I want to do to you, I can't do to you live on

the air. Oh, disrespectful idiot, you know whatever. Like you can't say that, so you try to like crack a joke or like deflect and oh, I have come up with some singers then I wish I had on hand at the time, but I just I didn't. I will say, well, my palms are sweaty. I feel like I've just admitted like a team. I know. I'm like, oh god, but I do think. I do think it's really helpful to

like to practice certain things ahead of time. That is something I've been learning more like in coaching, I'm like, oh, right, I'm allowed to do this. Like my coach literally said to me. She goes, you're an actor. You guys practice your lines before you do the scene. And I was like, yeah, what's your point that somebody wrote those? And she's like, you can write whatever you want. And I was like, oh, interesting, I've never given myself that permission. Slip in your car

and they call you out. Oh my god. These girls, Heyton and Brooke have practiced their conversation the most beautiful reunion and then it's destroyed. Destroying. Also, why why is Nathan in the crowd on looking and broke it up by the TV, like it's all her fault. He did this. Everybody, she's that did this, and he's the one that did it and recorded it and kept it. Yeah. And by the way, Peyton runs out of bed with Lucas going,

oh no, they're watching my sex tape. Like, clearly Nathan has a weird kink and suddenly it's the girls that are bad, wasn't I don't like porn on his computer? Yes, yeah, there's a pattern, man, there's a pattern. Little freak, little dirty boy, I will say before we before his freakiness is revealed. I loved I loved that sequence with Brooke and Nathan outside. Yeah. I love those two being friends. I love the glimpse into their childhood friendship, wrestling in

the sprinklers and laughing like their friendship. They're so similar in a world of people who don't understand them. I love I love seeing it. Of all the characters, they are the similar. You know, they have the same parental issues, They have the same money issues. They have the same I don't have money any more issues, have the same expectation at school issues. They are mirror images of each other, and I love the camaraderie between these two um too. I hope I don't. I mean I don't remember the

next episode. I remember like punching you, but not you, like just punching the camera. Um, but I don't know what Haley's reaction is going to be. Like, that's a weird thing to find out that someone that's been your very dear friend and made your wedding dress to your husband. Like that's but so many years before you knew each other. It's bro Like, it's not that far. Oh god. We have a listener question from some man. She says, can you walk us through the filming process a little more?

How much is the script or the director saying you'll enter here, pick up this cup, across the room, etcetera versus you getting to make those choices as an actor once you have the script. Can you play with the lines at all? I mean, here's what I'm gonna say. For the big crowd stuff like the party, the pro actor move is to walk onto set and be like, what does camera need? How can I make it work? Yeah? Because it's not just about you. It's about you and

fifty other people. Um. In the crowd scenes at the party, my little brother is standing over my shoulder, when the sex tape stuff is happening, and that's all I can see is my brother John just being like whoa, whoa. So yeah, it's not about you in the big crowd scenes, when it's a scene between you and one other person, those feel like the opportunities to me where you can collaborate with the director and be like, I feel like I get up right now. You know, um, I don't know,

what do you think? Yeah? I fully agree. I mean I think A great way to illustrate that is there's the scene where Mouth and Skills are facing each other and Shelly walks in the door and back behind them by the doorway. You know, she walks between their two heads on camera and they decide to split, and then camera follows Mouth and then he goes one way, and cameras following Shelley, and then they run into each other. That's choreography from the director. That's the director saying this

is how I'm going to get into this party. So as an actor you have to say, yep, I can do that. Great love it. And then in other aspects, you know, sometimes to your point, Samantha, yes, the script says, you know, Broke walks into the room and picks up a coffee mug because she's supposed to throw the coffee mug at Rachel or something like that will be scripted, but very often if it's just a scene in the kitchen, props are not scripted and you get to figure it out.

So it really is a case by case basis. You know, if something is so specific um that it needs to happen by the end of the scene, it will be on the page, and if it doesn't, it won't and you can figure it out. But it's not only um direct or dependent how much you get to collaborate, but it's also very often decided scene by scene. I can always tell a scene that's scheduled for the end of the day because a one shot of us sitting next to each other. You do it all the time, all

the time. Do you just want us to sit next to each other and like talk out into the room so we can do this in a water Uh? And not everybody, Not every actor goes for that. Some actors are like, no, I need my coverage. I need to get up at this point and walk across the room.

And you know that's there's a difference between performance and being production friendly, and you want to find like a good middle ground where it's like this is authentic to the character, but it's also production friendly, so we can

shoot this in an hour and get everybody home. Um, so yeah, it becomes TV wi is very, very different from movie work because it becomes about like technicalities and being able to do eight or nine pages a day, every single day and get people home on time so that the union rules are followed well and so that you can survive it. Because if you're doing a you know, you're doing a movie for four or six or maybe eight weeks, and that's like a crazy long movie. A

TV show you're shooting for ten months a year. Yeah, and you're working sixteen or seventeen hours a day. You do not have time to add an extra hour to the day. You just don't have it. I love the director that has storyboarded there and knows exactly what shots they want, and I'm just like, it feels like I'm like, to me, I can I can make that show? Like, Oh, you're so frofared to me? I love who do you feel like? Is our honorable mention in this episode. I

loved Rachel saying Brook, you're my friend. That was it for me because I feel that way about my girlfriends from high school, like things can be really really really bad and I can share a text with one of them and be like you're my friend and that fixes everything, you know, Yeah, I love that. It's perfect. Is that yours? What's yours? Well? Yes, that that was on my mind. And now I feel like I have to crack a joke and say, are we sure it's not Nathan Scott's

nipple ring in the fushbag video? You know how like in time it's like like a D and BC, like before Christ and after death and there's like before nipple ring and then post nipple ring, Oh my god, and Scott that's how we measured time. It's just so funny, like it being in the close up when he's setting up the cam quarter, You're just like, oh, yeah, this is this is early Tree Hill days. Gross, grosser, awesome

one or the other. I don't know, Poor James. Can you imagine getting like a piece of metal just spirit gummed to your It's a hard note for me and no one's ever asked me to do that. Maybe the next year, and I don't want it. I don't want it. I just talked to my son about getting thing about in his ear ap pierced, and I told Jeff I was going to go with him, and he's like, what are you going to get pierced? And I was like, I don't know, Like what does a grown woman get

pierced at this? Get another hole in your ear? I might get another hole in my ear. I think he's excited that I was going to get a Nathan Scott nipple ring. I mean, god, could you imagine? Oh my god, If I do, you'll get the picture of it, Like, okay, that feels fair. It'll be you are we gonna spin a wheel? Let's spin a wheel? Bad? The wine kicked in. I'm having a great time, Sophia. I know. I just finished my little baby glass and I'm like, maybe I

want another father. I'm like a cook dinner now. Most likely to skip school. Well, on our show, it seems like all the kids are skipping school. Nathan seems old to go see deb uh, Lucas skip school to go buy a tucks. It's like they don't even bother going anymore? Do they just have free periods? What's going on? Yeah, that's weird. Um. Most likely to skip school. I feel like Nathan, He's always like doing something weird in real life.

Not you, not me, not you will say. The first time I like legitimately skipped school, it was senior year. Blair Witch Project came out and I skipped school and I skipped schooled my best friend, Erika, and my brother and his best friend, and we're like in my cutlass and we drive to the movie theater and we're like, God, I hope no one sees this. It's the middle of the day, and we watched Blair Witch Project, fully believing that it's real because it was marketed as a documentary

and not a fake movie. And we leave and we're so unsettled because we live in northern Virginia and it's very close to the Maryland Woods where that takes place, and we're so creeped out. But then we have to pretend with our parents like we're fine, we had a totally normal day and we're not creeped out. That was my school skipping experience. I mean, Joyce skipped school a lot to do her soap opera. That's her. She's a skipper. Yeah,

you're right. She was like goodbye. She was like I'm working and going to the fancy bar to drink champagne. I'm fabulous, Page she was out. It was all right, oh, honorary school skipper. Next episode is season four, episode fifteen, prom Knight at Hat High. I might dress up. We probably should. This is going to be a gnarly one. It's almost like the next episode to me is two episodes.

There's like the flashback to the Brook and Nathan mess, there's the big Peyton and Brooke fight that we know is coming, and then prom Knight means Derek is back, which feels like a full episode all in its own. We might have to do too. We might have to split this up. Guys at home, we can't. We make no promises. She just got for Christmas here, so I'm probably gonna get chancy. Oh my god. Yes, let's get antsy okay, friends, get far with us next week. I

love y'all. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at drama Queens O t H or email us at drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time. We are all about that high school drama girl. Drama Girl all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic Girl Cheering for the Right Drama Queens draws my girl up girl fashion,

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