Feeling Feelings • EP317

date March twenty nine, two thousand and six. Wow, girls, we knew, we knew. We were getting into the grief of it all. Um. The synopsis here is that everyone is emotionally dealing with the tragedy through the five stages of grief. I kind of liked that they did this the flashes of like anger, denial, um Dan has visions of a young Keith. Lucas feels it's his fault. Keith is dead. Nathan and Haley moved back into the apartment, while Brooke moves in with Peyton. Plus we find out

who released the time capsule. All I have to say is, thank you so much, Joy, you and James for providing the only happiness and levity. God, it's just much sad fallout and Nathan and Haley are so sweet. Yeah, we needed to see some. There was some healing. I mean there was. I loved the healing at the end, which we'll get to, but I, uh, yeah, we needed some

in the midst of everyone else in turmoil. Nathan and Haley finding that healing in each other and the comfort in being grateful for what they have right there in their arms. That was really beautiful. And I loved that, you know, when when we're experiencing that scene, were there in bed after Keith's funeral at the cemetery and then

everyone's on the way to Karen's. I loved that. To all the questions that have been plaguing them for this whole season, he's so quick to answer, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, and he said, he said, He explains how it was all clarified for him in

that awful moment. And it's such a universally true human thing that when you are in a moment of strife or struggle or sadness or whatever, when some when something seismic happens, it recalibrates everything, and it puts things in perspective in such a clear way, and it turns your boogeyman into like individual little problems and you realize how small everything is. And and I loved that there was someone in our story who was able to have that

silver lining moment out of the worst, hardest episode. Yeah. I mean they were in the room, Jimmy. Yeah, I mean it's not like these are people on the exterior. Yeah, Haley and Nathan were in the room. I'm glad you said that, Sophia, because there was a part of me as grateful as I was to see that, it was also a little bit like, is it kind of insensitive?

Is it? Are we missing something here? But um, you know everybody does deal with grief in different ways, and the fact that someone could find healing out of a place of grief, it is human and it's okay. Yeah, I will say it was funny. I didn't think I would I mean, not funny. It's odd. I didn't think I would share this and it and I thought about it a lot last week when we watched the shooting episode. Um,

but I remember going through a loss in my family. Ah, and it was a loss because of an incidence of gun violence. And our family was in different states when it happened, and everyone spent all day on the phone, just all the family calling everybody. I mean hours of just like tears and sobbing, and I mean, it's trying, it's fucking tragedy. And I had plans that night with

two friends and I said, I'm I'm not going. I'm not There's no way, and you know, it's ten o'clock at night or whatever in l A. There was no getting to another state, there was no flying anywhere. And my friends came over here and we're like, put your dress on. There is nothing you can do, and we are not going to let you sit in this house and cry all night. And my friends, it's so crazy. My friends took me dancing. Yeah, and they were, you

are going to celebrate. We are going to celebrate harder tonight than we have celebrated in recent memory, because we better be grateful that we can. And I remember this moment. It felt like a movie where I almost felt like

everything went into slow motion. And I was on the dance floor and I was looking at one of my girlfriends and we looked over at her boyfriend, and we were all just like sweating and laughing, and I started crying, and it was like, if you do not take the incredible gift of being alive on this planet in this moment and like get every ounce of gorgeousness out of it, what are we doing here? And And I really feel like Nathan and Haley in this episode were the reminder

of that. You guys were the ones that were like, yes, feel your grief, feel your feelings. Do the sadness, the depression, the anger, the denial, all of it, every one of those title cards that we've got in every act. But you better, you better take advantage of being alive and being in love for the ones who can soak it up. Soak it up, Nathan Hale such as they're the entry

point for it. And then it grows into this party that involves the whole school and you guys know, I mean, how many people have died in my world in the last year. You know, it has been a relentless marathon of loss. And I think if I had seen this episode as a younger person, I would have had that check that you had joy of, like, oh insensitive? Is this cringe? E? I don't know if this is cringe E. And as an adult, I agree wholeheartedly with you guys.

If you guys aren't pleasure monsters out there and you're not out like actively searching for fun and joy and interaction and peace and like all of that the most fulfilling, the most fulfilling life, you could possibly go nuts, Just go nuts. Don't worry about TACKI go out party, honestly, but I love that about the that's it, that's the high school party, that's the party in the hallway. Is

the tacky element. It's like and the fact that, honestly, Sophia, it's so inspiring that your friends would show up at your house in that moment and be willing to risk you being like, how disgusted? How dare you? How dare you not honor my grief right now? They were willing to risk that scary moment in order to take the chance to give you what what they thought you really needed, which turned out to be the thing that you needed.

And you know what it taught me. It taught me that like the vacuum that your grief can create, the chasm that a loss can open, has to be filled with something and and it's balance if you spend all day doing this, spend all night doing that, whatever it is. And I love that they gave Rachel that moment to say, who are you to judge how people heal? Everyone's together. People need, Yes, go in any room here and have any experience you want, but people need to be together.

And that's what it is for people to say. I don't know if this is what you need, but what I do know is that I'm going to come hold you. What I do know is that you've been you've been in sadness and I'm gonna I'm gonna pour joy into you. I'm gonna pour love into you. And it's like it's not perfect, and yeah, you're right. Hell it might be. Like all these kids in the high school might be tacky, but they're together and that's worth something. They're doing it.

They're just taking the risk and jumping. It's like, just take the leap. Yeah, give me, that's no reason to hold back, no. I You know, this episode was really difficult to watch because the subject matter so serious, and I do think they were like really shining elements to

this episode. You know, those those interactions in particular the Nathan and Haley of it all, the Brook throwing the party seemingly like teamed up with Rachel and Mouth, you know, like that trifecta is great those that has been a love triangle of its own for the last few episodes, and so to see everybody together I felt really really nice.

There was some stuff, you know that is still like weird, like the Pete wentz at all, and also just kind of like we didn't talk about it in the last episode, but I hated so much of Peyton's dialogue when we were in the library, but because the subject matter was so serious, it was just like, don't ask questions, just go, go, go, go go, And I like that we got to resolve that in this episode by Lucas giving Peyton ship in the library. That was helpful. That was really helpful. It

was like, can we make fun of this? Now we're gonna make fun of this. Thank you. Because I also loved at the end of that conversation you could not get out of there fast enough. It was so funny, like once you guys had resolved, it was like, yeah, okay, we're good, So we're good, Okay, I'm goodbye. It's really reeled though it did. That's what I loved about it. I remember this episode. Do you guys remember filming this? One of all the ones we've watched in the recent

you know, recent times, recent months. Yeah, I have like physical memories of this me too. Why is that we were traumatized? Must have been well and I and we were saying it when we watched it. But that scene hill of you and I on Peyton's porch at the end, I mean visceral. And what I loved is, you know when we were doing it and you were jumping on my back like that that just happened. You were like dolt fall. You didn't want me to drop us both on our faces. Well, okay, because so this episode was

really the last few episodes. It's just like hard stuff and almost like life imitating art. When Sophia and I shot that scene on Peyton's front porch where it had been awkward between Brook and Peyton and like it was weird and everything felt segmented and we're trying to put everything back together. We shot that at like four o'clock in the morning, and it had a crazy long day and I've been drinking before we shot that scene, and while we were shooting that scene, and so when Brooke

came up and Payte's just like, Babby, you're here. Oh my god. I was legitimately happy to see Sophia because I didn't get to see her the whole last episode. And then when she's just like, I'm sorry and Peyton's like it doesn't matter. I don't know, it just felt real that celebratory thing that the kids are doing in the school of just trying to open get through the moment.

Is I think what I was trying to do, because we also know season three is when things started to go really sideways behind the scenes, and so it just, I don't know, the life and art crossing over in this episode was very strong for me. I'm not gonna speak for anybody else, but I felt it. I felt

all those visceral matt. Maybe it's also because we were dealing with such sort of like esoteric topic like big topics was beyond just like boys and girls and hurt feelings and you know, all of the dastardly villains, and I mean this was really we're dealing with life issues. What do you do with the concept of justice, what do you do with the concept of life after death? Or death being the end, or you know, soaking up what you have now? Um, where do souls go? What?

The justice of it all was a major theme in this whole thing. What does Lucas do? You know? He he demands justice, as he should, and yet there's a part of him that's hugely made up of compassion. Where do you where do you put that? It's so hard to comparementalize all these things. And yeah, I mean I

don't know. Maybe for me, because we were juggling so many big, deep issues, maybe that's why I just remember these scenes, like filming these scenes more because it was it's more deeply rooted into my soul than a lot of the other material that we did. Well, what do you remember? Because it was cold as hell. You can see Sophia and my breath outside. You can see like when they were out on the quad, you can see everybody's breath. And then you're in sprinklers supposed to rain

and cold. I remember that football field. I couldn't never rain when it was hot out. I shot a hurricane in the summertime, for God's sake. No, that was some football field they sent us out on, and um, we lost, somebody lost a bet that night. I don't because I know, Sophia. They used to bet on between you and I who was going to get to set last. But this night was there was some bet because I was obviously just me and James, and James is always like the first

to set before everybody and can you never leaves? I know. But I stopped it Crafty, I guess because on my way back. Yeah, I stopped a Crafty to get a cup of tea. And that's why I remember. It was cold, and I remember being out there, um, and I remember stopping for my cup of tea on the way in and I heard Lasted, one of our p a s on her walking. She's like, she stopped a Crafty. She stopped for tea over, you know, and somebody was like, yes, I won. It was just dumb, dumb like that. I

don't know why. I remember, and then going out on that field and getting wet, you know, and then I remember being in bed. I remember having those scenes. I remember the feeling of James coming up behind me when I was you know, I had no my makeup was off, and I was like, can you unzip me? Um? Beginning, yeah, yeah, in the very beginning just like these comfort moments. I guess, yeah, I don't know, Sophia, do you have a this real memory of this episode at all? Yeah, remembers those cute

little kicky boots she had on your Barbararella hairstyle. Oh my god. Right, I did feel like Barbara Ella at that party, which was also weird, but I loved, like,

I just love. I love looking back at some of the early Brooke moments because I remember, you know, the earnestness of wanting to get it right as as an actor, and also for her thinking like, you know, she's trying to do this thing and throw this party, and you know, Brooke would probably normally wear like some bright, sparkly dress and she's going to be Brooke at a party, but she's gonna wear black. You know, the attempts at at teenage balance. Um and yeah, I remember I remember coming

to the porch that night at Peyton's house. Um, I remember that conversation I remember, or that sort of visceral feeling of having to be vulnerable in a way you don't want to be, but it's your best friend and you have to be, um, you know, and me having to cry and you you being in like such a joyful mood and like being a little tipsy and laughing and like it was also it was all just very

genuine and honest. And I do think it's because we were dealing with these big questions and to your point, Hillary, things were going sideways for so many of us behind the scenes at this point, and it was a real moment whereas young women, we all experienced in our own ways a simultaneous loss of innocence, Like big things that we considered to be true broke for all of us, and they were breaking for these characters, and it gave us a place to put it, but we didn't know

where to put our feelings really, so I just remember how it's like, the feeling I have now is that it was sensational. And I don't mean amazing, and I don't I mean like the sensations of all of it were so heightened. And and I will say the thing that I'd forgotten but that hit me like a ton of bricks was when we ran up into Peyton's room building the shelves, and I was like, oh my god, that's where they came from. So much building the shelves.

That's sweet. You're you're dead on man. That that was yeah, because I had just gotten married and it was a disaster right away, and I was say and I was such a I was such a wreck in my personal life. I mean it was it was really a disaster. And the only place I found solace in that time was

at work. I would come to work and I was Maybe that's another reason why these these scenes started feeling so visceral, these episodes that we're watching now, especially this one, is that it's, Yeah, the these ideals, these themes, these big things that we had planned and thought of in our lives, all of a sudden came crashing down in all different spaces, all at once, and all we really had was each other, and we didn't even know how

to take advantage of that. That's what I'm realizing in this moment as you say that joy, is that we were all having these really parallel experiences and we were so scared to admit we'd messed up. Girls like the three of us went through such perfectionist phases were mean what I'm were to admit that we'd picked the wrong people, that the relationships weren't, we trusted the wrong people that we trusted the wrong people, and the people who we

thought were our mentors were taking advantage of us. Like there was so much going on, And I think it's part of the reason that the relationships feel so true in season three because it was the only place we had Catharsis, because think about how many more years it took us, you guys, to tell each other the truth, to be like, oh my god, I was really having a hard time. Oh my god, I was struggling here. Oh my god. This is when I knew that that this was bad. This is when I knew I had

to get out. This is when I knew I needed help. Whatever it was, it took us like three more years. So we went through this chasm where we were it was like our scenes were our therapy almost. I'm really it was practice. Holy hell. It feels like I ever thought about that before. You know, I don't know about you guys, but by the time we shot this episode, we're like, what five six months into our shooting season. We probably shot this in January or February. We usually

started like August, late July. Um and the subject matter of this season, it's like Haley's had to grovel the whole time it's just finally like getting some comfort. Brooke has gone through it with Lucas, like don't you do it, don't you break my heart? You know, don't make me cry again. We're all crying about Peyton. That dead mom's you name it, she gets shot, all the things. I was exhausted, yes, and the the scene with Brooke resonates

so much with me. And then the scene with you two in the apartment resonated so much because it just felt like a release, like having a couple of drinks and then just like like loving on someone and being like, God, it's just good to be with you felt so nice and real, and that blurry nous between like what is Sophia and Hillary and what is Brooke and Peyton? What is Brooke and Haley and what is Sophie and Joy? Like that blurry nous, I think is what kept it

alive or me. You know, we have, like you said, we had three more years of doing this and we had been acting our relationships out on screen. But this is when it started to feel really like, I don't want to say confusing, but it was confusing because it was like real. It was like, well, I know Sophie's not going to like like grab my boob, do you know what I mean? Like there are certain like safety nets you have with the other women at work, and so I knew that if we were just together we

were okay. We were going to be okay. And there's also something I think to that point of how tired we were. The material was exhausting, and and that loss of innocence was exhausting, and we didn't necessarily have the wherewithal or the energy two then commune about how exhausting

it was, like we were in survival mode. So the way were able to commune with each other sometimes was in those that felt so honest and I could see you but you didn't have to say it, and you could see me and I didn't have to say it, but we'd see it, and it was just it was like enough soul fuel to keep us all going. Well, this was so scary because they killed Craig, Like if if they could kill Craig Off, none of us were safe.

You know, that was a very jarring moment. Yeah, this is really where it's like man actors are skeed up because this is the kind of thing that, like in normal life, you would have adults around you who would be like, honey, you need to go talk to a therapist. Honey, you need to go find your girlfriends and get your best ones together and go have a cocktail and just let it all out. But instead we were bottling everything up and using our work to feel our emotions and

have a relationship with each other. That's so messed up, you guys. We did it for you, guys, congratulation for you. Well, think about how many times though we'd have moments where it would start because you're right, joy. In any normal world, someone would have gone, high, sweet girl, I think you're in an abusive relationship. High, sweet girl, I think this dynamic is toxic. Hi, your boss is a sexual predator. Like, nobody was doing that for us, and he not information

for you. And the people who were the perpetrators were like, this is great fuel for God. So I don't know. It's like, yeah, of course, we're all nuts. Can you imagine if the SAG representative like, because we have a screenersild the sagrap can I come to set like, hey, sweet girl, you're gonna talk. Get that funk out of here, are you? We were like a group of feral cats. But I don't know. I think it's so it is so interesting and joy I remember I don't know if

you remember this a couple of years ago. You know, I'm going to talk about some of these parallels we were experiencing at the time, and we both were like, isn't it like, do you feel like emotionally you're ten years younger than you are? And you were like yeah, And I remember us being like, we're thirty, but I think we're really twenty because for all of our twenties they trapped us. Yeah, we missed out. I totally missed out of my twenties. I'm like the youngest forty year

old I know. But like we in a way are emotionally ten years younger than our age because we were frozen in this weird high school time capsule. And it was only after we got out of it and we started like doing the growth for all those years that we had put on hold because we were told and and we cared. It was like, well, I can't screw this up. I can't bring my personal life anywhere with me. I have to do the job. I don't want to let the fans down. I want the fans to love

this I want. We had all this thing for each other, for our crew, for our audience, and man, I remember when we all started going to therapy and we were like, ship, we have a lot to talk about. There's a lot to fix and needs to give me a tool kid quick. Wow, it seems as though I have to run you through

a very large set of chapters. Well, you know what, that's the worst part about finding a therapist is that you have this so much to lug in there and and like open up all these suitcase You'll just bring them. You just need to like, do you have a DVD player? Can I hope you sign the DVD that is your face on it, like we've always have. Can you imagine being a therapist and having an actor as just like guys, I can't, I can't. That's too much. Um, there's there

is speaking of therapy. There's some serious mommy issues in this episode. Um, because Lucas probably more than ever like needs his mother. You know, he's taking ownership of this awful thing that's happened. As kids do write, if your parents get divorced, if something bad happens at home, if

you fail in some capacity, it's all on you. When you're a teenager um and Lucas is blaming himself for Keith running into that building, and it hit me like a ton of bricks that rather than be like Lucas, what are you talking about, you know exactly what Hailey says to him. Karen's like, yeah, yeah, this is on you, kid. I mean that was bananas. That was wild. Do you think it was realistic? Well, here's what I will say.

What I noticed watching it back that I didn't catch when we did it is that she snaps when she finds out that first he ran into the fire to get damn and like literally he ran into a burning building. He could have died. And then he ran into a metaphorically burning building again, it feels more like she was using that as a tool to Yeah, I thought what Moira did beautifully, and in the hands of someone who isn't as thoughtful and communicative as her, it might have failed.

What I caught this time when she was yelling at him about being selfish is I could have lost you. I could have lost you. I lost Keith. I can't I can't lose I just had the losing has to stop. And it was brutal and by the way because drama, like, that's how we get TV series drama, Like a mom. I doubt a mom would do that, but she made it more tricky creatures man, you're you know what. As soon as I said it, I was like, that's trophy. That's not true. They're just as tricky as everyone else.

It would be hard to see a mom do that. But Moira did something with it that that I caught this time that I hadn't caught before that I thought was beautiful. That is so tough. It's so hard to be in a situation where it's truly yourself. It's you or your child. And I agree with you. I think she I think it was necessary in a way that he needed that wake up call that he was. You know, I don't know, like you know, if you if you're

a heroic person, if that's built into you. There are people who run into burning buildings and that's their makeup, that's who they are. Yeah, but they usually do it with like gear and oxygen masks on, you know. And I feel like that's kind of a mother's point, right. It's like it is a little bit of a it's a TV heroism. It's like, oh, you think you can just run in there. You're not thinking about the reality. And it feels to me like she's so broken by the reality of it, and she wants him to have

a dose of reality. And and as often happens in moments of extreme trauma or stress, it all comes outsideways like it, Yeah, it gets dumped on him in a way that is heartbreaking. Oh, but like you can see why the writers did it right. Sometimes I think when I see something that makes me so uncomfortable, I'm like, why did the writers do that? I have to I have to find some logic otherwise I'm gonna grow up

from the stress. Well, it's like when you're kids little and they run out in the street, and you've got to have a big reaction. Right If you're just like baby, don't do that, they'll do it again. But if you're like ever, you know, And so it was almost like a reaction to a toddler, right where they don't understand words, yet they understand energy, and so her energy has to

frighten him, so he stops this pattern of heroism. But the thing that's missing here is that in you know, in my experience, in kind of parenting, you've got good cop and dad cop. You know, I'm always bad cop. My husband's always good cop. That's how it's always going to be. And Keith was historically good cop. Good cop, and good cops gone to talk bad cop off the ledge. Do you know, like if that makes sense, Yeah, it does. I have to be both. I have to be a

good cop and got cop at the same time. But you know, we had um I won't go into too many details, but we had a death of a family pet that was very dear and beloved and it was not a natural death, and uh, in my estimation in the moment, it was my daughter's faults. And she, you know, in the in the moment, looks up to me over our dying animal and stares at me in the eyes with giant tears in her eyes, and she says, is

this my fault? And I'm looking at her and everything inside of me wants to scream, yes, yes, this is of course, this is your fault. And it was like you, you are faced with these moments and I'm sure you've had some as well, Hillary in your life where you're faced at these moments of like I am going to I am going to this will stay with her forever if my answer is yes, the answer is no, it's

not your fault. And then later we can talk about once the grieving is over and life is a little bit back to normal, we can have conversations about responsibility and you know, her own conscience will do its work.

I don't need to jump on the bandwagon. But it was like everything stopped, everything slowed down, time froze, and I was like, I have to make this impossible choice because this was a deep, deep, deep loss to me and I have to put myself in my need for vengeance and justice just side and do what is best for her right now. And it was one of the hardest things I've had to do in a in a

split second, was really hard. Um. But I felt that when I was watching Karen, and I agree with you that she was using that as a tool that he needed in that moment um. But it is it's so hard to watch. It's so hard as a mom. You gotta you gotta make those calls sometimes. You saying that thing about good cop being gone also made me flashback to her breaking down picking up the adoption paperwork at Keith's apartment, because in a way, she realizes like, this was my this was my best guy, this is my

good person, and that's where she loses it. And I in a way, now, hearing you say that makes me think that that was probably part of what was resonating for Moira in her backstory of it's because this missing. This is why I screamed at my kid missing, This is why I did it wrong. And oh god, that just that guts me. Yeah. Well, and also there's a part of me that just loves that. Like once Lucas is not in his mother's good graces anymore, he's like, yeah, Brooks,

sleep in my bed. This is gonna be awesome rules anymore, you know, Like she mean like teenagers are so messy, and that's I guess we did that better than anybody. We're like, let's just we're like pig pens. We're just gonna make the biggest best possible. Can you mention if Karen had come into his room after just like reading him the hald Act and find Brooke in his room, Have you been drinking at a party? What are you? She would have given up. I think she would have

just walked out, Like I even have the ant. She's like, I'm moving to Delaware. I'm done with you. Get out um Whitey's. Whitey's story was really sad. Thank you for bringing that up. Oh my gosh, that broke my heart. It was gorgeous. And Barry walking in with the mug from his desk, and Lucas thinks he's in so much trouble and then why he just pours himself here out of the keg. That was so that was another moment of levity that we needed. I loved that and Lucas

needed that. It's life. Look, you have to do do what did he say? It was something about honoring who he said, Did you write it down? I wrote it down. He said who Keith was? He said, be the man Keith taught you to be. Anything less will make this a much greater tragedy than it already is. Yes, so he puts on the suit and goes to Jimmy's funeral.

That's what Keith would have wanted. WHOA. That's intense. Antoine did such a good job of carrying the emotional load of having that talk with Lucas, because really, everyone else in Lucas's life is kind of I don't know, transferring their own feelings like Brook is like I'm insecure about this, you know, and Peyton's like I love you, I don't love you, I don't care anyway, moving on, you know, and the mouth is holding onto it just internally, parent's

flipping the funk out on him. Why he's talking about is dead. Why Nathan and Haley are like, we're here for you, but we're also like bonding and like doing our own thing. And so there's all this transference and the person that comes in and it's just really steady

with Lucas and rational and is listening skills. And those River Court boys were my favorite part of this episode, you know, like seeing them all in the car together, seeing that childhood bond that you guys, that that is the thing that made me choke up because my son and his friends, like you watch these kids grow up, you know, Jimmy Edwards moms standing there surrounding by these

boys got me, It really did. Gus has gone to school with the same kids since preschool, and I'm watching them all like kind of change now, and like some of them are jocks, and some of them are theater nerds, and some of them are just like totally weird, and some of them are really into TikTok, and you know, like they're all different people, and the idea of them all being like sixteen, seventeen years old and showing up in such a responsible way. Mm hmm, it's yeah, kind

of forgiveness is amazing. It was beautimazing And there was really something too I need I need a parachute out of this emotion, So I'm going to get technical for a second. Um. There there were some really weird choices in this episode, Like the split screens felt really like soap Opara was like, what is happening? Whose show is this? What are we doing? And then the end when Lucas says to Karen, it's what Keith would have wanted, And the next shot is that slow pan up Keith's car

and that beautiful pullback to reveal all the boys. All those boys were really in the moment. You could see the thoughts on their faces. They're not saying anything, but it's so honest. And then the slow mo the like reservoir dog shot of them all in suits walking up the hill. I was like, that's what our show does. Well.

It was they had gone a little too far in trying to communicate some things and then and then they just let watching people feel feelings be the device, and there was something so metaphorically beautiful about like them being in his car, like Keith is the reason they went. He carried them to Jimmy's mom, Like, oh god, watching people feel feelings? Can we just put that as the

synopsis of our show forever? Like that? When we try to do more, it's, you know, gimmicky and weird, but watching people feel feelings, that's literally it's that's the good part of Yeah. How about Dan in the cemetery. That was really interesting to me. I thought he did a really nice job with that, but it was just such a um, I don't know, it was interesting to watch somebody continue to double down. I mean, once you make choices that far and like that, there's just no other

I don't know how you get out of it. I don't know how you climb out of that. We just watched him in a steady decline into hell madness. And I will say that's also got to be pretty wild. As an actor, your three years into your show, you know your character, and then you get a script and you're like freaking out in a cemetery, yelling at ghosts okay, and Paul committed, like he just like, you want to see me do it? Watch me, I'm gonna do it.

And he really like he looked manic and his eyes and it was like it was a side of him that we hadn't seen. And I love when you see somebody really commit. That's refreshing. Something's got to happen to you after you kill someone. Oh, I can't even you guys,

you know what I mean. We're just talking about this before the episode started, like all this stuff that I'm covering for the Sundance series that I do, which is all about awful murderers, you know, people who put innocent people in jail, like the worst things you can do as a human. And when we shot this show, I thought it was so far vetched. I was just like, yes, this does not happen, and I'm literally making a TV

show right now about this happening everywhere. And when people do something awful, they double down the they It is so rare for someone to admit I'm as human nature. The double down is so scary to me because I just didn't think that was the human default, and it is. And you'll see like people that we trust, you know, like judges, prosecutors, cops, like all these people that we should be trusting. Preachers, Oh my god, so many preachers this year. Um So a Dann Scott in a small

town is just another two. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. When you were saying that, I was like, and how crazy is it when you see it on like a grand scale, Like, yeah, a politician does something insane, an act of war happens, and they double down double downs weird, Like we're watching it happen in Ukraine. Everyone in the world is like, what what is Russia doing? And they just keep going and you're like, okay, so y'all want to double down so hard that we're like

people are fighting with bombs around nuclear reactors. Nobody, nobody's gonna say maybe this was a bad idea, because it starts with that's the small stuff. It starts with the small small things that we normally do. I do it, you do it, We all do it. We all do the double down, we all do them. We feel the moment of threat, and it's like it takes a lot of courage and intentionality and humility to stop yourself in your tracks and say shit, I messed up. I don't

want to continue down this road. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to you and you and you. I'm turning around. I'm going the other direction. That is that is what's the word, I'm looking human. It's like, that's beyond what we are, you know, naturally inclined to do and and

so yeah, it starts in all the small moments for sure. Yeah, it is wild to watch that and you know, talking Hill to you about your documentary show and these cases, it's it's given me that same feeling watching our show back, like watching the Dan of it All everywhere They're everywhere.

Isn't that so scary to figure out? As a grown up It's like it's a kid, I would have never bought it, and as a grown up, it's just like, yeah, well, it's one of the things that makes it makes it easy to get taken advantage of when you're young, because you don't want to live life. You don't want to walk around looking at the world with cynicism and assuming that people are going to take advantage of you. Um,

and it's hard. That's one of the big hard lessons in life is that there are a lot of dance Scots in the world. There are a lot of people who are totally willing, more than willing to take advantage of you if you don't see it, if they if you let them. Um. So it's it's really that's been a hard balance for me. And I don't know what

you guys journeys through. I mean don't know a little bit, but it's hard to how do I how do I go through life continuing to believe the best about people and yet be wise enough to recognize and discern when someone is not out for my best interests, when they're just really looking out of themselves. Well that's why, so joy remember years ago when we started talking about getting,

you know, tattoos on our feet. That's why when after my particularly shitty season three year, I got my tattoos are white because I just can't sit in the makeup. You're like, I'm not going to refuse. I know they're there. I can still horrible. But that's why in that, like in in the philosophy of you know, Eastern tradition that teaches you about balance, walking the middle path my literal goal after having been a blind sided optimist, and now

I think I would after being battle tested. I'd probably call myself a battered optimist, but I want to hold on. That's why I put two of the principles of that balance, compassion and wisdom, on the insides of my feet, and they touch every day. The idea that you have to be wise enough to not let your heart be taken advantage of, but have a compassionate heart that isn't so wise that it's cynical. Yeah, and that what is that? That? Why is as a serpent innocent as a dove? I

still don't know. I still don't know. I put that, I put that ink in my feet. It was the worst pain, you know, seventeen years ago or whatever that was, and it's still I asked myself that question all the time, because you don't want to be suspicious. Then you go through a betrayal from a partner or from someone who you called a best friend, and you go, oh, you used me as a stepping stone, or oh you used me to bolster your reputation or whatever it is, and

you go, fuck. I don't want to think everybody's as bad as you, But if somebody I loved as much as you could be this bad well mouth mouth is living that in this moment. We have loved the Mouth and Rachel trajectory, right, And if you want to talk about bad guys doubling down, Rachel's doing the exact opposite of that. Rachel is saying, hey, she does it. I messed up and she yeah, she owns it. That was

a really interesting scene. You guys wanna wanna cruise through that one which starts off with's middrift for so long they just held her cute stomach in the shot over

Lee's face. Yeah, that was stuff going on behind the scenes. Um, and again to our exhaustion, you know, it felt like every episode things were escalating behind the scenes in a way that was really hard and two to watch it back now, I remember just Danielle always kind of being an object, which was really frustrating because she was carrying emotional way. In this episode, she's like there with Brooke, She's confessing to Mouth she had like hard work to do,

and she's quite capable as well. I mean she's she's handling it well. Um, if they had spent more time on her eyes and paying attention to what she was actually thinking, because daniel is someone who's always thinking, which as an actress is so interesting to watch. And if they had spent any time really allowing her just settling and allowing her to just think and you would be fascinated. But she still carries it. She still carries so much of this emotion really well. And I love that you

called that she did. She did the opposite of the double down. She let it out because she didn't want to turn into Um, the kind of person that just continues to find excuses for why she deserves to do what she wants. Yeah, I love that. Would you think about mouth is speech? Mouth is? Would you think about mouth is speech? What you think about? Lee Norris is the unsung hero of of the last two episodes in a way because he's carrying so much silently. He had

not many lines. I mean, he did have a little speech, but most of the time the camera was on him, it was just pushing in on him feeling. We're watching someone feel their feelings. That's just so complicated. My god, I don't know how do you how do you wrestle through that? And the way that he Um carried the emotions that so many of us were feeling as audience members of loving this character and then watching a beloved character kill another, Well, he didn't, but everybody thinks that

he did. But watching watching a beloved character be seen in in a misunderstood light help me. The whole world thinks that Jimmy Edwards killed Keith you, And so that's the reality in their world, even though it's not true. Um, to know that someone you love died, but to have them died dishonorably is really difficult. To have them be stolen from you. Yeah, you know, that's a that's a that's a theft. Someone being murdered is a is a theft from your life. Someone dying in an accident feels

feels like a theft from your life. And those River court boys especially are carrying so much. And I loved that Skills was a voice of reason saying he was sick. You know if what he didn't say was if our friend did this, he was sick, but it was communicated on Antwine's face and in the way he spoke saying

he was sick. And and that scene between yeah, it was the first moment where you saw them wrestling with we loved this person, and this person we loved did something hateful, as they know currently, as they believe that jim the person who we loved, did something we hate and how do we how do we reconcile that? And that's a profound question that many of us have to ask, you know, living in the world, that's hard for grown ups to ask, let alone sixteen year old boys. You know,

they don't have the tools. Um. I like that. Skills was the voice of reason for that, and and mouth and you can see the parents in the room. You know. The actress who played Jimmy's mom was a very good actress. She didn't get dialogue. Um. And she is someone who was a character actress in the Wilmington area for a really long time. Um. Yeah, she was wonderful. No, it's

just such a heavy subject matter. There's a part of me that's just like, okay, let's get past I feel that kind of immature energy of let's get past it.

And the thing that pulled me out of it in this episode, you know what I'm gonna say, In the scene where Rachel and you know, where Haley and Nathan are slow dancing in the hallway, it pulls out and I see my keen brother making out with some chick as a as a background extra, And we're sitting there watching this like beautiful scene between Joy and James, and they're just like like saying all the things that we need to hear, and all I see is my brother

with mutton chops, suck and face with some chick. Like that was a full man knacking. Don't make TV with your family members. It's gross. It's just gross, you know what. I feel like that was probably payback for him having to see me like make out with Greenberg and Chad

and James ever and who else did I get? Um? Oh, yeah, you had a rents make out in this episode, although he obviously they're invisibly deeply inappropriate, but also like what a sweet dude, and and and Larry just references that it's just like, you know, he's you shouldn't be picking up my teenage daughter, but have fun in that limout Like what, Yeah, I need to ask him. I need to ask him so many questions about this. You know. Pete is in like an overlapping circle with like some

of my closest friends. So there's many a many a game night or like a football game that I see him at our mutual friend's house. He's so lovely and his sweet wife is so lovely, Like he's just so great, and I'm like, man, next time I see him, i gotta be like, did you feel like a creep was a weird you know? The record label was like, this is gonna be awesome and it's gonna cool cool, Well, and we are all actually the same age. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I don't think anybody clocked

it at the time, because we are all the same age. Yeah, we needed that time. Abby wants to know if the writers regret if we think the writers regretted killing off Keith because they never stopped bringing him up the rest of the series. Yeah, I guess I bet they did. I'm not sure. I don't remember exactly what money. It was, just money, money, money, control, control, control. You know, he was one of the highest paid actors on the show when we signed on to do the pilot, because he

was a known entity. And if you notice, all of a sudden, the grown ups start dropping like flies or disappearing because that money is not and redistributed, but um, it's just being spent differently. And so they made a you know, a financial decision, executive decisions, you know, for many of us like this was our first job. They

didn't have to pay us much. And the you know, having a bunch of younger actors who were making low wages in our industry versus a bunch of older actors with like quotes and credits who were being paid what they were worth. You know, the less money they could pay to those actors, the more money the producers and people could keep for themselves. Well, and the whole mythology too. Remember they're okay, So the networks we were on, w B and c W were just like we're young kids,

were young you know, we're young adults. It was the young adult channel. All the other networks had sitcoms that catered towards adults. We were young adult, young adults. And so with the CW with like them changing their whole deal in the last month, did you see that data that got tweeted out that the average age of a

CW viewer is fifty eight years old. It was like it was like fifty six or fifty eight years old, and everyone on social media was like, that's crazy, And we're sitting here watching these episodes back and I'm like, it's not crazy at all. Do you know much comfort I find as a woman in the forties watching teenagers. It's well, that's the thing, it's nostalgia TV. And you know what, I will say something else that's interesting, And I feel like this is out in the world right

now too. There's some things happening in a television landscape, and people are talking about how a lot of studios and a lot of very powerful producers like to treat their actors like they are expendable. Yes, and some of you said it is like a policy where they're like, I want the actors to know they're expendable. And then what happens is you try to make one of them the scapegoat, like our bosses did with Craig. They said, well, we're gonna kill off Craig Cheffer, and that will scare

the rest of the actors. And you know what happens. Fans never stopped talking about the actor who they made expendable. So then they can never stop talking about the actor who they made expendable, and they learned their lesson. It is a nice slice of humble pie for people who, you know, treat people like product instead of like people. So I think, you know, yeah, I think they regretted it. I think they had to eat it every day for

the next six years. Yeah, and the three people on this show who missed Craig dearly, I'm thrilled that you guys helped us make them eat it every single damn. Thank you, thank you, thank you. A wonderful fans. Are we going to spend a wheel? Spend a wheel? Most likely to to eat something off the ground? Eating off the ground probably me, shut up. Depends on what the ground is. I mean, yeah, it depends on what the ground is. But I'm a pretty big proponent of a

five second role. I'm like, listen, is good for your immune system? I don't know what you want for me kind of the same, as long as the food, as long as the something in question isn't soggy or has dog hair on it, because I can't handle if there's on it. My gag reflex is so bad. We can't even talk about that. I just like, look, I've dropped, like, I don't know, just as long as it's not soggy. Like, no, I'm not eating ice cream off the ground. But Sophia's

most Thanksgiving roast is now suspicion. Um. Wait, but what character do we think is the one. I think it's probably something they would have made Junk do, and Colin would have made it so funny. Yeah that's a good call. Oh yeah, like he would have really gotten into it in a way that nobody else would and made it real, real funny. I love it. I love it all right, you guys, what is happening next episode? It's episode eighteen when it isn't like it should be. That doesn't sound hopeful.

That sounds depressing too. I think we're going to be sad for a while. You guys, all right, it's a good thing. We have fun with each other. Yea, give us some cocktail recipe from m F Libations my next week, we need a cocktail. Okay, I'll come with a drink next week, guys, listen, we're gonna make drinks and we'll probably talk lots more about the camera moves because it helps us. You know, when the Deep did in that sone tech talk, just tech talk. Alright. I love you, guys.

Hopefully my brother is not kissing anyone next week. God, I hope so. Um you guys let us. I love you. I'm glad we're getting through it together. By hey, Hey, Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O. T H. Or email us at Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time we are all about that high school drama. Girl, Drama girl, all

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