Even More • EP509 with Michaela McManus

First of all, you don't know me.

We all about that high school drama.

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Well, hey, everybody, here we are.

We're back for episode season five, episode nine for tonight. We're only here to Know. Air February twenty six, two thousand and eight. And guys, we have Michayla McManus with us. We're so excited to have you back. Ready to talk about the episode. What would you like to read the synopsis? Tell us a little bit about what happened here.

It's in the chat.

It's in the chat.

Now you know how the sausage gets made. Everything's in the chat.

Okay. It's the first game of the season and it's Mount's big chance to impress with his coverage of the game. Meanwhile, Haley, Brook, Peyton, Lindsay and Mia get locked in the tree Hill Library and a lot gets said, particularly between Lindsay and Peyton. Elsewhere, Nathan and Lucas endeavored to tell both Haley and Lindsay about their indiscretions.

Ooh yeah, this is a packed episode, but man, I loved the flow. This felt so good just from the openings. Even the recap had music behind it. It was shot by Joe Devola, who I don't was he ever a music video director because I know he was MTV for a long time MGV.

He wanted to be, he wasn't you know what.

He did a really great job with this episode. I thought the flow was so beautiful. I didn't like the music video at the end, like the weird.

Yeah, so cringe. I was like, are we going to talk about it? All right, let's just talk about it. Let's get it out of the way.

Okay, let's get it out of the way.

Hill go listen.

You literally have your arms outstretched.

My arms are outstretched. Listen, you guys. It was an awkward time. Our boss was trying to sleep with poor sweet Kate and she was just not having it, and he was like, I know how to win her over. We'll turn the whole episode into a music video for her. And even she was a little like, yeah, I don't know.

Why would all these characters be lip singing to my song? And they were like it's gonna be great, And oh, Michael, I said, why would we in the middle of an episode start lip syncing to a song we supposedly can't hear.

We've never heard. She's writing it on the spot. We don't even know the song.

It's so stupid.

In the script, it was just like it wasn't even that we were lip syncing, it's that we were actually singing and we had to go into the ADR studio and record, right.

Yes, do you remember that? Yeah?

Oh my god, Mikayla for you being like brand new, how.

Uncomfort just lean against this wall of books and you know, sing, sing, sing how you're feeling.

Oh, I feel like it was a magnolia like that movie. Didn't they do that in the movie?

Yeah?

Maybe they did. Maybe they're trying to copy that.

I wonder what was that one of the days where we'd get the laptop being like, this is the scene we're copying.

Oh my god, because that would happen quite a bit.

It might have been I don't sing on TV. That's not my game, especially not if I know if Joy's singing, if Kate's singing, I want no part of this contest not happening. And they're like, no, it'll be cool, and I'm like, I'm going to sing song quiet, you can't hear me.

Well, aside from that, I thought it was really fun on the flow of everything and the boys, like walking into the gym in slow motion was so fun, and that mod squad walk.

Was such a vibe and wide and little Jackson in his little uniform it just made me squeal. And then thinking about all of us being in the library, I was like, where was our.

Mod squad walk? Yeah, yet all.

The girls like, come on, they should.

I wish they'd mirrored it when we got out.

Yeah, dude, they made us do all the emotional labor and we didn't get the payoff about.

Well, he was great. And also Jamie and Quinton doing the wrap on the bench. There were so many nice little moments of just set up everything to still remind us of what's happening in the story around us, even though the whole episode centered on the girls. Yeah, and sweet Bread.

And you know what I loved too was getting into the high school and assuming we were going to Haley's class because that's why we've been there. In season five. The kids that are walking around tree Hill, Hi.

Look like kids?

Yes, that was my first note.

Yes, you know, and like there's these little girls in our cheer uniforms and it's so surreal. And then suddenly we're in your classroom and there's Mia.

And it's like, wait, what's happened?

Wait?

Yeah, And then you get the behind the scenes, you know, the you realize we're on a set and Peyton's directing, which I loved, and then the Rick Clark cameo.

Oh, Rick, that was great. Rick Clark was our real first ad for you guys at home. And when they pulled that wall in Haley's classroom, that was really Hailey's classroom and they just pulled the wall on our stage. Yeah, that was not anything special, it was, but it was.

So cool to get inside of it.

And it was always fun for us when you know, folks who worked on our crew, who we spend more time with than our families would get these little cameos and fun fact, I got to have a whole second life with Rick because Rick Clark was the first a D on Chicago Med so we spent three years working in Chicago together, and he's just the most wonderful person and it was really fun to.

See him on camera in this episode.

Rick Clark's a good dude. When all the me too stuff happened, him and one other man from our crew are the only men that texted me to be like, I'm so sorry. I should have protected you. Like, he really took a lot of he was very emotionally invested in us and was really hurt by what happened. And so I love to shout out a good man. He's a he's a good one.

I love that guy.

I love him.

I thought.

Yeah, the music video at the beginning was so cool. Why do we want to do another one? Weird?

Couldn't tell you so strange of hers too? Yeah, it was fun.

So it was.

It was a good epic opening and then leading us all into the gym. It was fun. It was a fun I mean, there was a lot of levels, a lot of layers for us to play with in this episode. There was a lot to try and navigate, you know, you don't want to give away too much too soon, trying to keep the comedy going, but also all the underneath layers of the drama and animosity. It was a lot to balance. I'm proud of us, guys. I thought we did really.

I just want to know why Peyton chooses the day we're shooting the music video. We've been there all day. Why she chooses like that specific moment to be like, Hayley, I'm really sorry about all the Lindsay stuff. I'm gonna let it go. I swear like it was such a weird thing to be like, Oh, by the way, this elephant in the room, I'm so sorry you haven't addressed this. It's gonna play later, so I should say it right now.

Let me do it in front of a bunch of people when there's cameras in the room. This is the absolute right moment for this conversation.

I loved it.

But also, what is Peyton doing going to that basketball game? That's weird? Yeah.

And then Peyton's response because she's looking at you guys, yeah, and me, the three of us, She's looking at us in the stands, she goes, who we hate the girls? Sheep has engagement ring to my best friends friend so rude.

It is funny because in the previous episode you have like this beautiful scene at the end with Lucas in the gym.

Yeah.

I love that scene. You're so connected and emotional and you handle the whole thing with such grace after everything that went down, and you say, you know something along the lines that I'm always gonna love you, but if you need me to let you go, I will. I'll do that for you. It's a really like you kind of just surrender yourself to these circumstances. And I saw a little bit of that too, even with your you know, interaction with Haley during that music video where were like,

You mean the episode written by your wonderful husband that made Peyton like a fully, like, fleshed out person who was not just a vindictive bitch. He didn't write this one, and it really had It felt like this was written by our city boss and it was during the strike so it couldn't be changed. And I remember having the fight about the character assassination element here because I can understand Peyton being like pissy. The Brooke and Haley are all budied up with lindsay like, Okay, I get it,

I lost my mind.

I don't know if you guys remember this, but I was in those bookshelves hiding and he's yelling direction at me from across the library, and our boss was behind him, like whispering in his ear, telling him what to say. And I finally yelled back like, well, why don't you have so and so take his hand out of here and stop using you as a puppet, and I'm gonna do it my way. Like it became this like super combative thing, and I burst into tears. I was like,

Girls aren't like that, especially after she just said I'm gonna work on this.

I'm gonna be bigger well, and that I mean to your pointment, Kayla, about what you were saying last week, about how so often, like getting into this new medium for you, you were surprised about how, like week to week you would learn things about your character. We had been fighting these fights for years of like last week, I did this, so why am I now doing that this week? It doesn't make sense? And they would tell us essentially to stay in our lanes. And something that

Didn't you hire me to actually literally be this lane.

I don't know if it struck you two and MICHAELA, I don't know how far you've gone back, but I went, oh, they just have this lazy device when there's a love triangle, because essentially what they did was they made Peyton speak in the petty, unbearably mean ways that when Peyton, Brooke and Lucas were in a love triangle, they would make Brook speak and it was like vicious and vindictive and like always about weight and always like it was just gross and it wasn't rooted in any feeling, so we

And wow, the same old, same old.

These guys we work for are just like this is how women would fight over us.

And I'm like, is actually sidebar when Cap and you and guys are walking into the library and you like, do you want to see where I got shot? Which is such a weird way to like why in the world.

Sophie and I looked at each other while we were watching.

We were just like, what is this dialogue so tacky? But Kate says, Okay, what she says is cat fight can wait, but it sounds like she's saying camp and wait. It's really funny because I did have to go back.

And rewind it.

I was like, wait, did.

We get away with something?

Did we get away with that?

It's just so odd and that every once in a while we'd have episodes like this where there'd be this beautiful depth where Lindsay and Peyton get to and this shared loss of parents and like beautiful acting on both of your parts, and then like you know whatever, it is like you know, Peyton's a bitch and manface Lindsay and the song, and it's like, what, how are these two things happening in the same episode of television?

I literally don't understand.

Well. I remember the first time I read this script and hearing those insults or reading those insults, I was like, this is just so below the belt. It's I don't I cannot believe that either of these characters would say so, it would spew such a bitriol. No. I know they're and they're dealing with a lot, and and you know it's important to show all the colors of people. Sure, like we're not perfect, but this just took it to such a place that I was like, this does not

No, yeah, no, But even if we were, it's not clever. It's not clever, like we would be smart about it to be like that's okay, that's the choice.

You're gonna make two women actually write that see that scene?

Yeah?

Or one woman. But like if you put two women in a room and figure out how it would actually go, yeah, it would have been a lot smarter.

Because I felt that when and this is I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but in that moment where Lindsay has the breakdown and you kind of push the buttons and oh, Daddy's little girl and Daddy's like that to made sense because I'm like, Okay, yes, so many assumptions based on what we've seeing people are what we think we've all done that we've all been guilty of that. And then you're like, oh, I was so wrong about a messed up right that I get that ugliness right,

Challenging the only thing that I could think that like saved it is. What you're witnessing are two animals of the same species, right, Like Lindsay and Peyton are the same species and we're all cats, but these are the two like jaguars, you know, that are just like, oh, you wanted to go, cool, let's go. And I heard a really interesting quote once about people who have really similar personalities like that, and it's that they can survive in the wild together when they each have their own

Thank God for that. At the end of the episode, Yeah.

If we just had to live in that stew.

Yeah, Pauz, But yeah, where you guys take it, and that's it. That's why it feels confusing, right, it's like whiplash. There's such authenticity and it feels relieving of course, but also I don't know, it's just confusing that we get to that place that's so good, but we had to start in this other place. And yeah, maybe it was also to your point, Hillary, the immaturity of like a first time director going make it bigger, make it meaner, like because they think that's what something requires.

Like big equals drama.

Yeah, and it's like, I don't think so, but there were there were all of these moments that were so great, like.

And it makes it a little Yeah.

The only word I can I keep coming back to is whiplash. It makes it feel really like jostling to have such good emotion and such good comedy, like MICHAELA when you fall backwards with that chair, Oh my god, Like I did a spit take. I laughed so hard when like when Mouth's ringer is Looney Tunes and it's like I just was like, what is happening?

This stuff is so funny?

And then yeah, when they start taking cheap shots, You're like, wait, but we know how to be funny and we know how to be really vulnerable.

Can we can we do more?

Of those things.

Yeah, we could have had expensive shots rather than cheap shots. You know what I mean. It was a writers strike. What were you gonna do? See kids, see what happens.

That's what it is. Yeah, is the strike? Oh well, well I like that.

At the beginning of the episode, we get that that little bit of Nathan and Haley and you think he's gonna tell her. Oh god.

I was like, thank god.

And I liked it because while while Kayla and I are in the for the whole episode and Haley's just like I have the voice of reason, there's just that little thing in the back of your head like she doesn't even know her shit's worse than ours.

Totally.

Her husband's kissing the nanny and he's seen or naked.

Multiple times multiple times.

Yeah, that would have been fun to play up a little bit more, the sort of know it all, like Hailey trying to be, you know, be in charge of everything, and like, really, I wish I had a little more to do. That would have been a good thing because it would just show you how much she didn't know. Until the next episode.

Well, it would have been cool, like in that way that Haley pushes back on Brook about her mom when like when the initial chopped in the library, let's talk turns into the Victoria is not good for you, bitch?

Yeah that you all do for me.

If if somehow they'd been able to give that same sort of gusto that you got to have in what I can tell you about a mother or is this and a mother's love is unconditional? And like it was

Oh how creepy. The Carrie just like swept in though, Man, I'm going to grad school.

I'm gonna go to grad school and I'm gonna miss you more than you know.

I was like, oh my god, god die. Yeah, it's so great that Tory is so great because it would have been tough if she was like weird and bitchy or like very like competitive and you know, jealous or something, because you know, sometimes you work with women like that's like I don't I don't know how to fun around those. Yeah, but Tori is so great. It's so hard to be mad at her.

I know I love her, but didn't make all of us question how we hire nanni's. Like none of us were mothers at the time, but I've had to hire a multima nanny's.

There's no way I would hire a nanny that looks like her.

It It did get into my head a little bit. You guys, I'm a level with you, just like because there was there was one chick in LA that I had gotten on referral when I was doing as I don't I feel like Gray's anatomy or something, and this chick came over and she was there for one day and I came home and she was swimming, and I was like, nope, gotta go peace. You do a kid goodbye pass.

That's so inappropriate relationship.

They're like in your home and with your kids, Like.

Yeah, and she you know what if she's going to be in your house swimming with your husband and your child. She should be in a like a wetsuit, like one.

Of the little.

One of those nineteen twenties like pantaloons, the.

Sake of like a per total propriety in letting you know you should be comfortable because I am totally out of you know, off limits.

That moment when she calls, Oh god, it's so creepy. First of all, when she calls, he calls her her mama, which, oh, understandable they're spending some time, but it is such a like it's such a close relationship. And then that moment where she says, can I tell you a secret? So she's like, sometimes I pretend you're my kid.

She said, you know that with all of us so badly.

I did not like that.

I do like.

No, that's like our worst nightmare.

Ye oh my, don't do that psychony.

Oh Nanny Carrey. Oh, I mean, do we think Nathan's gonna tell her for real? Right?

Well, now that she's leaving, I think she's trying to get it so that he doesn't have to tell her because now she's removing herself from the equation and so she's not a threat anymore. So that buys her a little more time of him not telling her.

But he says at the end of the episode with Lucas, Yeah, and he.

Says that thing, I wait, where is it? I wrote it down that I thought was really really beautiful to hear, especially from Nathan, like just given his dynamic growing up with Dan and Dan's jersey being pulled off the wall, like yeah, and Mouth's whole overview of this is really

I just love that he's like, I'm gonna tell Haley and Lucas, who he just confronted about kissing Peyton Like crickets, there's not one one minute where Lucas is like, yeah, I should probably tell Lindsey too, right right, No, nothing, not even slightly and by the.

Way, it's Peyton who cleans up Lucas's mess because Brooke reveals in this episode that she's seen that ring.

She knows it was Peyton's.

Ring, and Peyton does the greatest kindness and says, I only know what that ring looks like because Keith gave it to Karen.

Oh.

That made me cry.

I was like, that is such a beautiful choice. That is a great piece of writing.

And it.

You, Michayla, you.

Carry that into that last scene when Lindsay goes to sit with Lucas in the gym and you ask what he's thinking about and he says, Keith, like, you can see it on your face that.

You know that now.

It's so beautiful, and.

It did.

When the episode ended, I was like, wait a minute, I'm here having all these feelings about Lucas and Lindsay being like oh, and then I'm like, wait, wait, Peyton cleaned up his mess. Nathan says he's gonna go clean up his mess, but that boy's not cleaning Lucas is not cleaning up his mess currently. I wonder if he will in five point ten, which we shall see.

Mikayla. When we watched the last episode that your husband wrote, and it was that speech in the gym where it's like I'm gonna be like Keith and I am gonna love you, but let you go. I loved it, but we joked about how manipulative it is right where it's like Peyton's like, I'm Keith now, I'm Keith and you're Karen now. And so every time every time he said in this episode, I'm thinking about Keith, I loved it. I cracked up because I was like, is this talking

Oh my god, I.

Didn't even catch that.

That's so fun.

The next T shirt we're making Keith Peyton.

All I'm saying is now that you know Peyton dropped the Keith bomb. Now that's all Lucas is thinking about.

Okay, we have like these great we have so many of these great fan questions about Lindsay. One of them is from Lincoln and he said, you and Chad had great chemistry. What do you think made Lucas and Lindsay work as a couple. What was it that when you got there you like, I mean, because you guys did, there was there was a great chemistry between the two of you. Did you ever spend time thinking about what that is or you just sort of like we're experiencing being there.

Oh. The only thing I can speak to is we got along like Gangbusters, you know when the camera's rolling. It was just like easy with him. And yeah, I said before, like he was super. He would just like hold my hand through all of the me learning and trying to figure it out as I went along, because the only thing to do is just like jump in and go, you know. Yeah, you just kind of have to, like the train is going and you just have to

Did you get like were fans because you guys did have good chemistry, I mean, did fans Were you getting mail? Were you getting like things on message boards like hate mail?

Did they love him to Lindsay?

People? Oh no, people hate Lindsay. Why I'll read just like because I got in the way of the Peyton Lucas love story, you know. So I remember I went off to.

Well, they don't hate Jake Chagelski. Is this hosogyny thing.

No, I don't know.

I just really went after Lindsay. And when I went off to do Law and Order, I remember Mike being like, I feel like I should tell you this. There's like a petition circulating online and it's these like one Tree Hill fans. Oh no, yes, and they were like, now she's on Law and Order, sign this petition. We want her out, we want And I'm like, you, guys, that.

Is literally insane.

That's but it was. It was serious. And people remember when we did the charity basketball game. They we did like an autograph signing and I was saying you and this woman was just like staring daggers at me, like down the line. I could feel it, and the grown woman like she's there with her teenage daughter and she finally gets to me and she looks me square in the eyes and she goes, he doesn't love you, weird, And I was like, whoa. And you Sofia, you like

Yeah, she's amazing, She's doing her job.

Yeah, so the fans aren't like there is a major backlash. For sure with Lindsay. I think she just like stirred a lot, and I don't think people like that very much. So that was a whole other experience to have to deal with.

I was like, my god, I'm so sorry person.

You know, wait, have you done conventions? Have you done any of the one Tree Hill conventions?

Oh?

Oh you have the CODs.

Listen if you ever want to do a convention, I would love to do a Clayton Lindsay photo and just be like, you got to take both of us. We're a package deal. Yes, yeah, I like all these I get it because when it was Brooke and Lucas and Peyton was the meddlesome one, like the hate was so I mean, there's still girls online that are like that.

Oh by the way, and same for me.

We are just like you never stood a chance you are And I'm like, oh wow, I know that this was our job, like that none of those relationships were real relationships, right.

Because it's like they're really in it, they really in it. You know, so you're like, Okay, I guess.

I want to believe in something like that. That's why I watched Pump Rules because it.

Is any way. I really do think that because you watch that with your husband and like the internet listen that, our phones listened to everything we do. There was a wait where I was like, why am I suddenly getting all this vander Pump it's me stuff on my Instagram? Like why is the algorithm serving me this?

And I was like, Jeffrey, Yeah, it's the Morgans, it's you and your husband. God, I love it, you know. Okay, So you know who loved the drama more than anyone in this episode is our sweet Kate Vogel.

Oh, God, just.

Loved it. She went from being a wallflower to being like the instigator this episode. Yeah, she was pulling some strings.

It was like, let's be nice to each other now, maybe we should just like bitch a little bit right now. That'd be kind of fun.

Yeah, she let that whole the music bit. She was like, all right, let's go.

Yeah, but why is there a guitar in the library?

Great question?

Has anyone ever seen a guitar in a library?

No? No, I mean like the whiskey. I can believe the guitar is a little far fetched.

Yeah, it was so odd and interesting too that, like, to your point, she really does feel like she's hitting all the keys in this episode because she.

Wants to know who we hate.

She wants to dig into the stuff, she wants to kind of needle everybody. And then she's also like, maybe girls shouldn't tear each other down and we should just compliment each other. And I'm like, what's happening here, babe?

But I did like that part.

It's fun to show someone else your old stomping grounds, you know. I mean, I liked kind of this little buddy energy. Then pain in me a had and it, I mean, it did hurt to randomly open up the doors of Trick and look inside the gym. Well, that was so weird, so weird. And I remember saying, like, this is Dune. But it was a first time director and they wanted to make art.

Well so well, And you know what I was feeling when I watched that, I felt like they they had gone ooh. When we pulled back the sides of the set of Haley's classroom, it looked really cool. Let's do it with the trick doors, and then we'll be in the gym and we can make it our thing, Like somebody decided it would be a cool transition. And it's like, but the bar doesn't open into the gym, so it doesn't work the same.

Guys, It's like for Dora Hats, like let's look at for do hats.

Maybe we shouldn't, Maybe we should leave that in the forties.

But I think Mia treating all of the women in the library as characters allowed her to be the voice of our viewers because she's getting to say all the things that the viewers at home wanted to say.

And you know what's so interesting about you saying that?

I'm just realizing that while we're in the library, Mia goes.

And finds Lucas's book for the first time.

She's the one person who hasn't read it.

Yeah, so in a way, she's.

Really like she's she's paging through the book in real time.

Yeah, what a weird sensation to have, Like lindsay, have edited the book and and know like intimate details about our lives.

I can't believe he still used our real names in the book. Yeah he did.

Have you guys, ever had someone that just knew too much about you in real life, and you're like, how do I I don't know how to navigate this. I have no idea you mean like.

You mean like a friend who like in social circles or something who would like out you about.

Like Lindsay's clearly a part of our world now, but in a way that like none of the conversations are natural. I can never be like, hey, Lindsay, let me talk to you about when my mom died, because she's like, yeah, I know, I edited the book about it. Oh right.

Oh. I hate that. I hate knowing things about people that they don't know that I know. It's the worst.

It's why I can't talk to famous people.

I can't like if we go we go to on a word show, I can't like talk to if I cannot, I cannot because I'm like, am I supposed to ask how you are or what you've been up to? You're here nominated in a movie, like I don't I lose the ability to speak to a person when I'm like, I know so much about you, not even necessarily by choice, and I've lost the ability to ask you questions like a normal person.

And I'm going to leave now absolutely the same experience. It's so frustrating, it's kind I think that's why I like check out of celebrity culture. I don't know what's going on or who anybody is anymore, because I want to be able to have an honest conversation.

Yeah I cannot. I just can't be a part of it.

Yeah, I don't. I don't like to google anybody because I don't like to know anything.

No, it's too scary.

But I'm wondering for you, Hillary having written your book because it is so personal, it's so much of your journey, and like, do you feel that way about people?

I never know who's read it, you know what I mean? Like I think I was Uh, I didn't think it through. And so when all my teachers from a middle school and high school read it and did a book club, I was like, oh, man, I talk about my sex life in this that's weird, okay. And now that I'm doing more stuff at my kids' school, I'm always kind of caught off guard by who's read it because I assume that no one did, you know, Like that's a

Would you rather someone who you don't know, who you're meeting for the first time and you're getting to know them, would you rather that if they had read your book? Would you rather them tell you straight away oh yeah, I read your book and blah blah, or would you rather find out later? Because they were like, I don't know if I should say it, and then.

No, definitely have a We have a painter that lives here on our property and helps us with our animals and then like paints the landscapes and stuff. And he came highly recommended through friends of ours. We just needed a body on the farm to help here. And when he first moved on to the property, he was like, I'm going to tell you right away. I listened to your audiobook and I don't want that to be weird.

And I was like, you know, that's so great, awesome, such a good way to handle that.

Thanks for telling me. Yeah, yeah, it made me feel much better. But also like as a boy, sorry you had to sit through all that. That was a lot of fertility talk, my guy.

Yeah, it's good, probably good for him.

I think I reached out to you right after I read it. Both my mom and Mike gifted me that book from Oh Babe, And it was the start of the pandemic and I miscarried and I went in for my DNC Friday before Mother's Day, and like so healing for me. It was, Yeah, it's really brave to put all of that out there, and I think you've helped a lot of people like you certainly helped me. It was. I loved it so much and I realized beyond our four dum connection, we had the same midwife.

What you used Deborah Frank It was oh my god.

She yeah, she delivered Gabriel, my firstborn. So that was another just like bizarre connection.

Peyton and Lindsay are the same person.

You guys meant to be.

Sometimes you just walk the same path as someone, and it's always kind of like tricky, who's gonna who's going to open up first?

You know?

And I think with my book that was my way of being like, you know what, Okay, I'll just open up everything first, and then you know, people can come to me as they want to. And so sometimes people come up about the fertility stuff for sure, and then other parts are about like the me too stuff or you know, we're just not fitting in is another theme. And the book thing is just really intimate because you can't fake it. You can't. You can't put that stuff out there and like gloss over it. You have to

I don't know.

I don't know. I mean, yeah, we read a lot of biographies and then you meet the people and you're like, oh, seemed better in the book, do you know.

I always wonder how that goes when people write biographies meet the people in your life that you I mean, you're not writing unless you have something interesting to say. And you don't have something interesting to say unless things have happened to you, and things haven't happened to you, unless there have been some people in your life and some bad things that have happened. And so there's really only one way to tell that, which is to just

No, I just cut whole things out. I was like, we don't need this character. We can pretend this wasn't a bit Lindsey's speech about wanting to get that day right, the school shooting day. You were so good in that, MICHAELA like that made the most sense because the weight that you carry when you're writing nonfiction, every single sentence has to be the truth. And I loved what you did with that. I think that's why it takes me

Yeah, it was really beautiful.

When are you going to write a book?

Me? Yeah, I don't know. I hope someday. I was very inspired by by that. I don't it's so brave to put yourself out there in that way, and I don't know, I don't know. We'll see. What about What about you guys, Sophia Joy, do you do you have that sort of interest in writing? I know you're both brilliant women with so many stories to tell.

Like, yeah, I do for sure. I mean I think the ADHD has made it really difficult over the years to I have lots of essays, I have lots of chapters and things, but to really commit to putting it all together, because I would love to write about my experience. You know, I was in a cult for ten years, Like, I would love that that would be a really valuable experience to write about.

And the.

Recovery that, you know, ten years of recovery after that. So it's there's a lot to tell. But yeah, the pressure of getting it right and everything having to be exactly real and all the people that are involved, and also like I I don't know how much I can say because there are still people and legal things in place that are make it more complicated for the timing of that. Yeah. So but I do write. I mean I write all the time. I've got I have to

Writing everything in code, You're like, if I sing it, then it's just a song and I can say what I.

Want, which I have done.

Yeah, the songwriting of it all I guess such a cool you know outlet. It's interesting because, you know, in a similar way that you did in grad school, Like I left my BFA program with fourteen actors in it because I didn't feel fulfilled, and I transferred into the journalism school at USC and I was an Annenberg student for the next couple of years before.

I went to work in North Carolina.

And you know, I've written op eds and articles, and I've been approached by a lot of people who are like these things that you write, and like the essays essentially that you write about, like the world that sometimes even you just publish on Instagram and long form or whatever, like this.

Is all a book.

But I think similarly for me, there's a lot of pressure of how to collect and order things, like, you know, the way my brain is wired to like be I like repel stress and planning in a way that is not super helpful. Thank god, I'm married person who's very good at planning, like we.

We yin yang really well.

I am a you know, responder in the best sort of sense of the words. So like in the moment something strikes me and I say something or work on something, and then it's there so the long form of a book feels hard.

You know.

I've I've had people on my team literally like chasing me with a book proposal for five years, and I'm like, I don't feel ready, And I think what I'm learning in this, you know, sort of stage of my life, like being a person who's been in like active recovery and therapy for PTSD for years.

Is.

Realizing that some of what feels really hard about the idea of potentially writing a book is the people that I would have to talk about. Yeah, and like that feels really dangerous. And the unfortunate thing is, as you know, and we've all experienced this, but like as a woman and on our show, I certainly went through this, like something can be done to you and you still globally get made out to be the one at fault. Yeah,

Yes, And like.

Do I want to continue getting dragged for having survived something that happened to me in my early twenties and something that happened to me in my thirties, Like I don't know, it sucks to sort of go through that, like women don't get the Lucas Scott treatment.

Unfortunately, Now that you guys are talking about all of this, like that's the theme of the episode, it is pointed that we go back to the scene of the school shooting where Peyton is bleeding out and you know, Jimmy and Keith died just in at hallway that we see at the end of the episode. To revisit trauma, to write about it is to revisit it, and to read about it is to revisit it. And so there's no moving forward for this group of women until we revisit

I think so. I think it's when you open yourself up. I think that's for life, When you reveal truly your your deepest vulnerability, you're like your deepest self. I think that's when you can then connect, right. I think that's what happens between Peyton and Lindsay during this episode. It's that moment where it just kind of blows up, but it blows up in kind of a beautiful way because

But from the pages of a book. Yeah, different perspective. Right to humanize someone. It's like so easy to dislike somebody that you can sort of care acature rise in your brain, but to actually see them opened up before you with their wounds, it takes it to another level. It's just you can't you can't compartmentalize people into that space.

Anymore.

Yeah, do you feel like because Lindsay had all the information and Peyton didn't like Lindsay having just lost her father, had this expectation like, Oh, no, Peyton and I are going to connect. We have so much in common, We love the same boy, we both have parents that have died from cancer. I like Tree Hill she lived in. You know, like, there's so many things to connect on.

Yeah, did you have to make a decision about that? MICHAELA When you came in the I'm trying to remember your first episode, did you know that Peyton was back like or was it a shock or did you go in like wanting to like her and expecting that or did you have to make a decision about that?

I think it sounds so creepy, but it's like she was so close to that book, right, editing it to so deep in those pages and in those stories that I think she really truly grew to love Peyton. But it's what a confusing relationship to then be with this guy and know all of.

This and oh that would hurt so bad.

So I'm sure there was just like an instant feeling of insecurity and really wanting to connect, but feeling that.

Wall wall is a subtle way to put it, spiky wall.

It's like the spiky walls in Indiana Jones that are just funny.

I was like to me, it feels like a O with crocodiles in it.

Yeah, but then you know you're you're so in the thick of our world. You know, you know everything about our world. And then here comes Tim who is maybe not someone that Lindsay doesn't necessarily like knew about.

Yeah, yeah, I doubt Lucas wrote about him.

He's not in the book.

Oh he's not in the book. He's so great in this episode.

Breh is so funny, but he broke my heart in the end.

That look, that one look. I mean, he is so talented, the fact that he could be making a joke and then in one second just turn his head and look at you and say, nobody hangs out anymore, or nobody comes back to I don't even know what he said he was gonna touch anymore. Yes's looking at his eyes and made me really emotional.

And the spectrum he takes us on to you know, the depth of that moment, and then the pure gorgeous comedy of him being in the coming in the door and me trying to run him and him picking me up.

Oh, it's so good to see you and hugging me, brilliant.

I was shrieking laughing. That was so funny, And I remember it like I could feel it in my body. I remember him putting his arms around me and picking me up and just flailing my arms and legs like trying to get away from him, and and really having to not break to not like screw up the scene.

You wanted to not laugh, right, I wanted to laugh so bad.

It was so funny. He really, he really crushed it.

Yeah, when when you're like, no one's eating me and he's like well, and you're just like no, no, no, no.

I love that.

But I also love meeting people from my partners past, like that's that's fun to be like, Yeah, you went to school with this guy. Hmmm interesting. Interesting, I'd like to know more about this situation. Yeah, yeah, did you ever go back to your husband's hometown? Where's Where's Mike from?

Okayla, Mike is kind of from all over. He's moved around a ton. So both of his parents are actors and ended up teaching acting. Oh cool, they moved around a ton. They're regional theater actors, so they were.

So that's why he doesn't hate actors.

Very much. Understands the world what a prince lovely way. But yes, Florida and Texas and Massachusetts and Ohio, and his parents finally were like, Okay, we need some like consistency in our lives. We have three young boys. So they they went to school and taught and ended up teaching at Western Michigan. Oh, right on in the theater department. Yeah, so they're like acting teachers. So so Mike fully he started as an actor. There's a shot floating around though, Oh.

A head and shot all, Oh my god, have you taken him back to your hometown?

Yeah for sure, for sure. He's been to Rhode Island a bunch. Yeah yeah, yeah.

Did you take him to like a football game?

You know? I wasn't so much like I was such an artsy kid in high school. It's such a wallflower and a late bloomer. I mean, what drew me to theater was because I was so shy that it was acting that allowed me to finally like let go of my inhibitions. And you know, it's like, it's so funny. It's sort of a misconception that all actors are just.

Like these loud, like charismatic Yeah, that was not me.

I was like, I'm just going to hide back here and hopefully nobody will see me. But when I was acting, it was freedom, you know. Yeah, that's what That's how I got pulled into it.

Wow, that's awesome. Oh I love that about Mike. I didn't know that.

Yeah, he's a little all over, which it also helped me with this business where you just never know what's around any corner.

You never know.

I grew up in the same place. There was just like the security and the safety of that throughout my childhood. And Mike moved around so much that it has given me a lot of peace with my kids and moving and like, you know, when we went to do The Village and we just like uprooted and we're like, Okay, we're gonna hunker down in Brooklyn. Yeah, even with that pilot I shot last summer, because you never know, right,

Okay that right, Yeah, they're gonna be fine.

They'll learn so much.

So what was your backstory for Lindsay though, because you know, again she knows everything about all of us. The show takes place in our world. Did you have to balance that and be like, Okay, well, who's this chick? I think we all like leaned on our real life experiences.

Yeah, well it starts to really get interesting because you learn a lot more about Lindsay in this episode in that moment. Up to this point, you don't really know, right yeah, yeah, or what her deal is, and and it was all such a new experience. Again, I'm like, I'm just trying to figure out what the tape on the floor is about, trying to it was so much to put together and every script are getting like these little pieces of information to kind of inform you of

You two are trauma bonded, just like Lucas and Paydon. Why does this dude show up every time someone's parent dies. That's messed up, man boy, It's deja vuie.

Like, oh, I just got like goose pimples from my arm because I was like, wait a second, this is all ringing a bell as you're telling me this story. I'm like, yeah, yeah, that does sound familiar. I do need that guy because he came in like Superman when I was at my lowest.

Yeah, the stakes are so high, like I'm going to lose this person that I can't lose this person. I lost that person. I cannot lose this. Yeah.

Yes, Oh I hate this. The layer of guilt right now is so thick. Hate it. I did like that we got drunker and drunker as the episode went on. Do you guys remember having to play that trying to remember like what scenes we had been drinking and which scenes we hadn't. Were we just drinking in real life at this point? Are there just water bottles full of vodka on set?

I remember it was Audacious his moonshine.

Oh it's Halloween.

We're all like, can we get out? Can we wrap so we can go?

Yeah?

I totally forgot about that. Yes, there was no part Oh yeah, Hillary, you must have been dying to get out of there because you probably had a huge party waiting.

No, this was the first year I didn't throw a party because I was just Oh, everything at work was shitty and I was just like I'm throwing mad now now you made me mad and our boss was in town. There was no way I was throwing a party.

Oh yeah, gross, but there is. There is like such a weird technical thing of that, like when Peyton brings Brooke the bottle of liquor she finds. You know, I'm sitting there like reading the magazine in the in the stacks of books, like to figure out, okay, if we start drinking and seeing seven, how drunk is everyone in every scene because we.

Shoot all the scenes out of order? Yeah, that is such a mental thing to descript. Is supposed to keep track of that for us? And I don't remember if I mean, if it was Mike Leon, I'm sure he was so hard. How weird was that conversation about cannibalism?

Ew? What the heck?

Like they ran out a runway. They just couldn't figure out what to write anymore. They ran out I have in caps?

Why are we having a cannibal conversation? Now it's ghosts. Now it's Jimmy and Keith, like again the whiplash. Yeah, I would make jerky out of their love handles. Mikayla, you deserve.

An award for that. How did you deliver that line?

Oh?

My god, good snack on that.

For days. I was like, give on trophy, give her something so weird.

And then the joke about like the vampire, it just kept going yes for your neck, and I was like, are we.

Still we're still talking about this?

Well?

Also when you were like when you said the next thing to me, I was like, are.

We gonna kiss? Like, what's happening? What is going on? What happens in the library stays in the library.

There was just like a lot of weird sexual energy and a cannibal talk, and I was like, this makes me feel very uncomfortable.

No, that was weird. I loved I loved the Brook Payton stuff in this episode because true friendship is when your friends made an ass of themselves and you still sit with them. And the fact that Brook stuck by Peyton even after she went real dark. She didn't have to say anything. She didn't accept the behavior. It was like, no, you're awful, You've duh hard. I'm still gonna go sit over here in this stack of books with you, and I'm not going to leave you alone.

I'm just gonna make sure you're okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, And I liked too that we got to have a bit of an arc because much like Lindsay gets to express that she knows and wants to meet the Peyton from the book, Brooke is best friends with Peyton from the book and says, I don't know you to be this person, like.

I know you to take the high road.

So that later when Lindsay is talking about Peyton's morality and her noble nature. It's very cool that it tracks from Peyton's oldest friend to the newest woman in her life, who, all in their own way get to say, like.

What are you doing, buddy, don't be messy, don't be messy.

Well, I also love that Brooke finally got to voice all this stuff about her mom. That was so great, And it was so uncomfortable to watch everyone pushing you and pushing you and pushing you, and you just kind of standing firm and like, listen, this is my choice. I'm choosing this because, yeah, for all the reasons that you explain, I'm sweet.

Yeah.

Well, I liked to being able to express her needs and say, even if it's for the wrong reasons, I don't want to lose it. And the thing that really hit me that I didn't remember the verbiage of it and hearing it back like absolutely broke my heart? Is that what I had to say as broke was I wanted to be seen by my mom and maybe loved ough that wrecked me.

Like if she can see me, then I have a chance.

I can take it or leave it on the love And it's like, oh my god, that's so that just hurts man. And to be able to get into it and to see the bigger depth of how tied to her mom she feels now and how scared she is that maybe without her mom she wouldn't have made it like it's you. You really get to see the layers in this episode, and that felt really nice.

Well yeah, it almost makes up for the cannibalism talk. Oh my god, that's it. How did two things live in the same episode?

Oh yeah, it was foreshadowing for the heart falling out of the you know cooler and the dog eating.

Oh yeah, okay, so we have to end with that. So do you guys remember when we would get made fun of on the soup? Yeah, MICHAELA, were you ever the target? I've been the target many a time.

I feel like it was. I was definitely in some episodes that got hit on the I can't believe.

The fake music video at the end of this episode wasn't on the soup. It might have been on the soup. The whole speech that they give about Yeah, people on the internet are people who can't create anything. I'm so glad you brought this up.

I'm dying the internet's just for porn and complaining.

Yeah, don't you know what people do?

Oh I can't. I can't. I knew exactly what it was. It was so transparent and so ridiculous.

Yeah, it was. It was fun to watch back all these years later, like my guy, no, wow, no one's fooled. We know what you're saying here. Uh yeah, our show got made fun of, which was great press for us. What are we bitching about? Sure?

Was you are years later with like legit like new fans that are watching.

Yeah, jump, I mean yah, that's amazing.

Like the show that I would basically like learn how to do on camera acting would just like follow me.

I did you don't think that the thing that you do at like twenty two to twenty three years old is gonna be the shit lives forever? Yeah, the legacy, it turns out it is yeah, you guys.

To watch this. I really I bat onto you and like revisiting these episodes from so long ago, it's it's a head trip.

Well, every every episode we pick our honorable mention. I think my honorable mention is the not so subtle internet shade. What was your honorable mention for the episode, Mikayla.

There's a moment that that made me lol. And it was when Joy Hailey is like calling us both out because we're both having bad behavior and she's putting solitaire and your solitaire and you're like so aggressively. It made me laugh so hard. That was that, And and the whole pizza toppings and Sophia, Oh yeah, it was so funny.

And no mushroom, mushal room that made me.

Bret Claywell gets my honorable mention.

He's good.

Yeah, I think I would throw it to Brett as well. But I will also say, and maybe we've said it already this season then, and I just don't remember because it's the middle of the night. I'm delirious, but I got really excited when I got to be like I'm dying to see.

Teacher Girls Classroom.

I was like, we've gone from tutor girl to teacher girl.

And I got so excited about that little draw and then I thought, have we said this before? I don't. I don't know, but if not, that would that would tie.

I don't remember it, No, I don't think so. I think that was the debut.

Yeah, I love that.

All right, ladies, let's spin our wheel. Every week we pick a most likely too Mikayla, and we have to pick a character that is most likely to do this thing, but also like a real life member of our our gang. All right, who is most likely to Elope in Vegas? Peyton and Lucas tried but it changed their mind. Yeah, so not us because we couldn't go through with it. Does anyone get super fast married on the show? Yeah?

Yeah, I think that's probably the answer, Nathan and Ali.

Yeah yeah, I think that that really tracks.

You sure things, So what's the risk, right, Michaela, thank you so so much for hanging out with us for two full episodes.

Miss you. What a joy to be with you guys again, this little reunion. This was so cool. Thanks for having me.

Great to see you.

Nice.

Yeah, And if anyone's mean to you on the internet, just send them to us. We'll kick their ass. We'll kick them in the digital shin, the digital shin. All right. Next episode is season five, episode ten, running to stand Still. I hope we can all get along in the sandbox. Oh boy, we'll see you next week.

Bye, Hey, thanks for listening.

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