Dare You To Move • EP108

will will. Wow. That was strong episode because the episode, I mean, good God, it's on the one hand, so ugly and over the top awful, and then it like boo rings around to this really beautiful, tender sweet place and it's it's just kind of wild. It makes you kind of forget it. Well, let's just get into it. Yeah, let's get into it. Episode eight, The Search for Something More, aired originally on November eleventh, two thousand three, And oh,

wasn't this a doozy hoping to have fun? Brooke and Payton attend a college party, but the situation gets bad when a guy named Gabe drugs Peyton and everything goes to hell in a handbasket. That wasn't part of the write up, but it was just how I felt about the episode. Yeah, sure, Okay, So we started talking about this the second the episode ended. Um, And so it was just in the midst of being like, oh my god,

what's sweet, tender, lovely things? But then we remember, oh there was it started heinous miss stuff at the beginning of the episode. Terrible. Yeah. I really wish we there had been more. I wish we had kind of been able to take a whole episode or at least, you know, to work out that storyline and all the implications of that,

because it's just it felt a little glossed over. Well yeah, I mean, if you have never been a soul did and you're writing an episode about assault, it is really easy to be like, hey man, nothing happened, You're fine, wake up the next day and put on your backpack and go to school. Um. The reality of that, we all know is blowny um. And so you know, if this show was made today, they would be definitely like reporting this because if he's going to roofy Peyton, he's

going to roofy other people. Yeah, I mean he had a pack. Yeah, it wasn't the first last time. And then like the realization even if nothing happens, the realization that something could have gone really really bad? Is enough two really um really affect you in a very negative way. It makes you so distrustful. And so you know, even Peyton being affectionate with Lucas, I don't know that that's

like a natural action, you know. For for me, I'm like, how about nobody touched me for like a good long time. There is something that's so deeply traumatic about the realization as a young woman that you move through the world and by more people than you thought, are looked at as prey rather than as a person. And we really did just gloss over that. The one thing that I do I think they did well essentially ignoring what happened.

Like the one sort of peek in that I thought was really interesting was in the time that you know, Brooke and Lucas are waiting for Peyton to wake up. They they allowed for just a little smidge of room for the shame and the self blame that women feel for stuff like this, And to see Brooke blame herself felt important because so many women do that. But what also bothers me is that there was no It's like they wanted to get just a little close to it.

They didn't want to get into the reality, which is, what would the shame be that Peyton carried, what would the fear be, what would the post traumatic stress look like? They didn't want to deal with any of that. But I also think about how in two thousand three this wasn't a conversation a lot of people were having Oh my god. So it's like, weirdly, it's it's sort of progressive that we talked about it. And also it feels like we dropped the ball. I remember senior year beach Week.

We all went down to like if you graduated in Virginia, you'd go to the beaches in North Carolina for Senior year Beach Week. And so all our friends went to like Myrtle Beach in South Carolina and like party beaches all over the place, and my friends and I ended up in Corolla, which is like north in North Carolina. It's like where all the family houses are. It's very square.

And it was because we were like, well, bad things happened, like we don't want anything bad to happen, And sure enough, a girl that we were friends with got rufied down in Myrtle Beach, and so we hear about it through like the trickle you know, we didn't have cell phones, but you hear it, you know, the trickle of information. And my girlfriend went out that night and like hooked up with some people that we didn't know, and we

stayed we were looking for her all night. I was furious, furious, and so yeah, for this just to kind of like get glossed over and it's like, okay, well, onto the next party. You know how many parties have we done on the show? Eight episodes in and like there's there's like bad stuff at every party. Yeah, and the assumption that just because Peyton has walked into his room and you know, I was looking at records, that she must

suddenly be interested in hooking up with him. I remember when I was I remember, and I was living in New York and I was twenty and hanging out with a group of friends, guys and girls mixed. And there was this guy who was older in the group, probably like and he was a big, tall guy. Um, and we were walking down the street and I don't know what I said, something kind of flirty and was like just being I was just you know, being like I did with my girlfriends. I mean, I was just being flirty.

Oh my god, my heart is pounding on, like sweating, even talking about so funny I would like, and I just remember he grabbed me, he picked me up and shoved me against a wall and pressed his whole body up against me, and he said, you better be careful talking like that, and none of them all, everybody kind of just like stopped, like and then he like he just held me for a minute up against the wall, and then he set me down and then just kind of like it was, you know, like, oh, I taught

her a lesson. Ha ha. Didn't say that, but that was the attitude. And and I just kind of like I remember just having to let let the emotion just drop off of me because I couldn't process it because all my friends were there and they all didn't know what to do, and it was all just so like yeah, yeah, and then move on, bring up the next topic of conversation and just keep walking. Um. But that moment has

stuck with me my whole life. That feeling of like I'm not safe to just be myself because it might incite violence trigger. It's really scary. I'm so sorry. I mean, I don't know, I don't know any person. I don't know any woman that hasn't had but that moment. That's why I'm saying it because it's so common. We all have experienced things like that that and guys don't. So many men don't understand that that's they think, Oh, we're being naive. It's like, no, we're not. We just don't

think that somebody's gonna look at us that way. And that's where I think the complexity comes into, is that it's not us being naive. It's not us quote unquote putting ourselves in a dangerous situation. What the is a dangerous situation going to the grocery store, Like, it's really just us being in the world and you get it's like getting hit, It's like getting t boned in a car. You have no idea that someone coming at you is has run a red light because you are obeying the rules.

Like That's what's frustrating about these kinds of dynamics is, um, the lack of understanding that it's just what we're met with for existing well, and also the tone that this episode sets so, um, we're doing this interview, I had to do it today, and it will come out, you know, I don't know it'll come out a little bit after this episode airs, and they asked her, like, well, what

things tonally did? Did you have a problem within two thousand three, And like, guys, there's a bunch you know as we watch, and it was hard to like rattle it off in the moment. And and this episode is like blaring because the girls start off going to shop in a lingerie store and the result is that she's sexually assaulted, right, and nowhere in there is the conversation like, babe, you did not ask for this, you know, it is just assumed. Well, you dressed in chada print like a

slot at a party. You went to a college party, and this is what happens, you know, and so you just have a drink. Sleep it off, girl, you know, don't sleep it off. Report it, you know, like get checked up on that shame that makes you feel like this is gonna plague me forever and I'm not going to be believed. You will feel better having reported it, whether you're believed or not, you will know that you have done what you needed to do. Um, yeah, it's gross.

I wish that we've done a better job with that. We did good stuff with other things in this episode, but that was like a strong episode overall, but but you do you see where those sort of glaring holes are. And this, I think is part of what we've all talked about in the past, and I'm sure we will continue to but you know, the lack of upper level representation in the you know, group of producers or writers of any women to say, hey, you're missing something about

our experience. You're you're using you're using a stereotype or

a theme rather than telling the truth. And I feel really grateful, as I have in other episodes so far with our show, but that we're able to talk about this stuff and kind of unpack what worked and what didn't, because my hope is that people who watched the show who also went that doesn't feel right can have a little bit of a of a place to come too and and you know, a better answer or or at least feel acknowledged in in what was probably you know,

for some people uncomfortable to watch because they had had really similar experience. Well, there's trigger warnings on shows now, right, Did they go back and put trigger warnings on like old shows? I don't think so. I didn't see one when we started this episode. I guess not because that, by the way, that was triggering for all of us to watch. Like I we all watched it through like our hands, just kind of like, yeah, it wasn't it

wasn't fun. So if that was triggering for you, um, you know, so many of you guys have trusted us with your narratives and with the things that have happened in your personal lives, and so like, aside from the show, we hope, girl to girl that you feel like you have the resources and the support system to deal with it, because it's it's lingering. It's not a let's go to school the next day situation. Now it should not feel like that. Yeah, you should have a space where you

can unpack that. And I do think it's really worth, you know, highlighting what you said Hill about the importance of reporting. I think we've all in our own ways experienced the reality of um not being listened to and the way we wanted to when we did report. Yeah,

that it happens to us. But what I will say is what it enables you to do, maybe you'll have the best outcome and hopefully, you know, the me too movement and so much of the legal progress we're seeing means that people are better listened to than we were in the experiences each of us is thinking about right now. That's making our chests feel tight. But the thing you can hold onto even if you don't get the outcome you deserve, is when you have spoken your truth. When

you have told people what happened. Everybody knows and they either know they showed up for you or they know they failed you. And I genuinely believe that that is part of the larger reckoning that's happening in society that's going to make systems and procedures change overall. People have to know how prevalent this stuff is, and so you know, take your time, do it in your own way. Make sure you're protecting yourself and your energy, and that you

feel safe and that you feel held. But if any if anybody who's with us today is questioning whether or not they should open up about something or seek recourse, I hope you feel empowered to do so because you've deserve it. Yeah, I agree, all right, So that's yeah, because there's really lovely stuff in here. Yeah, Well, one of them is Brooke really redeems herself in this episode. Not only a one eight, it's like a it's like

an eleven eighty, you know what I mean. It is just pirouettes of difference from the last episode, even the way we wake up together and I'm like, oh, but you and Luca's we're having a time. It's like they did. I feel like they did that to Brook a lot, where they were like, we really need someone to do some inappropriate next episode, just pretend it didn't happen. And

I was like, this is okay, all right. I love that she shows up at Nathan's house in that corduad blazer and buttoned up and she's like, I'm really trying to change my karma. Yeah, so that was so sweet. I'm just trying to appease the gods. I love that you were like, she's pagan, but I did. I loved that the also sort of the permission to, you know, own up to your failures and try to make it better. Yeah. I loved her sending you guys on a scavenger hunt. I forgot that I was the one that did that.

That was a cute, super cute. It was a cute. What they called it, They called it a serial date? Is that is that a real term? Wouldn't it be a progressive date. I thought it was a serial date, a real thing, because it sounds dangerous serious. It really made me think of a serial killer, which is like not the point of the romantic lift in the episode. No, I'm getting like excel charts, you know, like I'm not seeing anything. Is that an old timey word? It's old timey,

That's what it is. That must be what do the kids call those dates? Now? Kids don't date now, they just text each other. Yeah, they like snapchat. That was so fun. I don't you know, I remember, I remember filming some of that, the night walks and stuff. But again, it's hard. So much of this stuff blurs together for me because we've spent so many nights outside on the streets, um, you know, filming stuff. So um yeah. But I I

loved watching it. I loved watching Nathan and Haley really find each other for the first time, in Haley standing up for herself and being like, I'm not putting up with this ship. I was saying when we were watching it, I would not have had that confidence, especially when when um Tim and the basketball players come to the table and Nathan totally denies that they're on a date. And I would have I would have just been like, oh, yeah,

it's fine. Whatever imploded, Yeah, exactly, it's fallen inward with shame. Yeah, but you have to act cool on the surface. Then I would have gone home and cried and felt awful. And but the fact that Haley was just like yeah, no, you know what for a girl that like, like, what do we think Haley's background is in dating? You know, like for a girl is not practiced in dating for her to come out of the gates, so like, oh no, no, no. Of the basketball team, right, He's like he's like the

guy just drop my pen. That's how much she meant it. She's like he's like the big, superstar stud on campus and she is like feels awkward and feels like, you know, is he really going out with me? And this is crazy? But she's not willing to sacrifice her integrity and her what she believes about herself and her confidence for this guy. So so Baller just love her. Yeah, She's She's really

fantastic this episode. When you're watching it, Joy, do you feel like you're watching yourself or do you feel like you're watching a different person. I don't feel like I'm watching myself. I know that it's me um, and I've sometimes there's a little like electrical current that goes between me and the screen, and I'm like, oh, I feel I remember that I was feeling awkward or well, you know, and I have a little muscle memory, but overall, I don't have a lot of actual memories of being behind

the scenes. And there's a lot of stuff I watched them like, I have no recollection of being in that location, and I don't know saying those words and all these lamps. I just would have said something if I recognize the lamp. Um. Yeah, No, it feels like somebody else. But I recognize the emotions of all the things I was feeling as a person back then. This is kind of a long winded answer, sorry, but I didn't think it's insecure back then, and really like awkward. So I think I feel it's still in

my way. So if do you feel like you're watching yourself or like a different animal, No, I really don't. It feels so strange. What's really interesting is I can see in episodes seven and eight, I can see my terror and fear about I've never really done this before. Four I've gotten done on episode or a scene. I can see that relaxing. I don't feel like I'm pushing

as hard to like be good at being brooked. But I also like, I just it's so odd because I, yeah, I remember how strange and insecure I felt, and also how weird it was to feel that way inside of playing the captain of the cheerleading squad, who's this super

overtly ballsy girl. You know, we had some really big kisses in this episode, like monumental, game changing kisses, and that is the stuff When people are like, how do you weigh the good stuff and the bad stuff, I'm like, listen, we're putting the bad stuff out there because we deserve that, um. But that's what helps people to know for the future. You know, we're transparent and honest. It's healing, it's informative

for others. It's great. But it's fun to watch these episodes where we get to celebrate the big good stuff and the Nathan and Haley just like epic kiss in your front yard? Can you tell us about that day? Did you know that it was going to be a big deal that day when you were filming it. I knew it felt like a big deal. Within that storyline. Uh, I knew. It was like a moment that we had kind of all been waiting for. I I don't, no,

I didn't. I mean I did certainly didn't know they were going to put that switch Foot song with it, which was that was A Walk to Remember had just come out too, I think the time. So there was that other that switch Foot song. I don't know if it was in that, if that same song was in um A Walk to Remember, or if it was a different one of their songs, but they were a huge band at the time, and so to get that song

put at that moment, it was such a big deal. Um, such a big deal and and uh I was kind of nervous and um because I hadn't had a lot of on screen kisses. Um what I've seen the beautiful video that was cut together on Twitter Joy. It's my favorite thing ever when fans that was just with him, though I hadn't had a lot except other with with Paul Anthony Stewart, my co star on Guiding Light. You were so sexy in all of those bakeout scenes that you did with that other dude. And I remember watched

it like how old were we wouldn't that happen? But what's kind of great? It is like your kiss with Nathan is so different from Peyton's interaction with him, which is so fun to watch as a viewer, like, oh, there he is, you know you bring out the hymn. It was the It was a great way for him to redeem himself after at you know, awful moment at

the table. They had this really sweet night and his his you know bad the bad part of his character kicked in and he betrayed her and denied that they were on a date and and she left And I love that it. That was a really vulnerable move for him. It wasn't like I'm just gonna like I'm a big tough guys like. It wasn't an ego move like I'll kiss her and then I'll win her over. It was like a genuine what else could I possibly do? How can I let this girl know how much I like her?

And he just went for it. Um, big big deal. We all cheered. It was such a great feeling as I have such a crush on Nathan and Haley. It's just really fun to watch. Did you have a kiss in real life like that? You guys did you ever have one that you knew was like did it? Yeah? Yeah,

that's just dad age. Yeah it's interesting too. You know, we were talking about this as we were watching all this, like this hero moment for Nathan and Haley and this boy kind of having to find his integrity, and then we had this kind of aha moment where we were like, wait a minute. For years we basically were told that, like Brooke and Peyton were fighting over weekas and you guys going back to watch it, the throwers are sitting here going, oh, I'm sorry, this boy is playing these

two girls. Let's talk about integrity for a moment. But I didn't see you at the time, which is also such a statement about like how we tell stories to girls. Oh my god, Like he is flirting and being sweet and cute and opening up his feelings with both of them in the It's I was. To his credit, he is so good at being like the charming listener and the one that tells you you're special. Those are dangerous boys, the ones that can say, like, girl, you're so special, right,

and like ten girls. I mean, look, I want to I want to make room for the fact that he's a teenage boy. To this character and he you know, he's also going to be confused and who do I like? And I like messy this girl and this about that girl, and I own that's reality. It is complicated, man. I just realized that again. The narrative always became like what these girls fighting over this boy, and it's like, actually, this boy was like fully he was uncle showing up

for both of these needed to pick a lane. When I was in high school, so when I was in high school senior year, my girlfriend, my best friend, and I were dating these college boys two years older than us, and it's like the summer before senior year and we're feeling so cool and the boys were also best friends, and they got together and decided they wanted to switch. So my boyfriend pulled her aside, and her boyfriend was like, hey, can I am, Can I talk to you during my

lunch break at work? And she's like, go go. You know he's not calling me as often, Go talk to him. And I was like, yes, of course, I'll go be your ambassador. And this son of a bitch decided to be like, I think that we've made a mistake, and they tried to do a switch a row and so I totally buy boy teenage boys being just like dumb and messy. Here's the deal. Don't date the charming boy date mouth date mouth mouth. Oh my god. The beginning

establishment of Brooke and Mauth friendship. She's so cute and she is like, I'm always so happy when we see Brooke being like an actual little baby because and when she sits down and like they joke about his nickname and she said, well that was you know my nickname again? And then she goes because I slept with my mouth open.

It's like so innocent and sweet. She's just a little tadpole in that scene, just like and seeing our guys are basketball guys on the court, see and Antoine and Cullen, that was so cool to it was important to return that element. It's like they got away from it. We had like three party episodes in a row. We were about the rich kids, and it was just like, Okay,

I get it. The element that Vaughan who played Fergie and um Cullen and Antoine brought to it, Like it's just so much richer when you have that duality, you know, then being insulted that Lucas has blown them off, that was important. Those are big feelings and I don't remember what happens in the later episodes, but I hope they really give him help for that because he's not being a good friend. Yeah. I loved I love the reminder that that that's where he comes from, that's where he belongs.

Those are his people, you know, and they're the ones that are always there for him in spite of all the new things that are happening in his life, like his cell phone. Cell phone, cell phone. Remember that was like a shocking thing for someone to have a cell phone. How old were you guys when you got your first cell phones. There was like a car phone that my parents would put in the car, right they had to

like plug into the at like the lighter. But I didn't get my own personal cell phone until I had worked at MTV for like a year and a half two years. I used to have to call into MTV on pay phones, like in the subway, to be like, do you guys need me to work this week? Um? Because yeah, that was the only way I could get a hold of people. Oh, I love that. My parents

were so paranoid once I got a driver's license. They were like, you are getting a cell phone and it will stay turned off in your purse and you will turn it on if you are ever in a car accident for emergencies only. Like it was such a thing. And then, you know, cut to a year later, I'm like like nine, texting people like one to h the letters multiple over and over again. Would you that I was? I think I was seventeen and sixty years seven, probably

seventeen when I moved out and got my apartment. Did you had a cellphone or not just a landline? Yeah, because I was while I was riding the bus into the city to work, like I had my own apartment. I was going to my senior year of high school and kid, yeah, I would live alone, total adult, Like yeah, pack up the house. Got crazy. My story is so crazy, but yeah, I would take the bus into Manhattan because

I had an apartment in Hackensack, New Jersey. Um, and uh, you know, my mom got my cell phone and it was one of those that looked like a you know, like a double It was like like the Zach Morris from Saved by the Bell Phone. What it looked like was this thing, you know, amazing giant recorder. Um, the Zach Morris yeah, no, listen, my son just watched Zoo Lander with their like talking on the little teeny tiny phones, and just like, do you still have those moms? Do

you still have a daddy? Yeah, I've got some boxes of old phones. Gus Morgan is here for it. Um, how do we feel about this whole Karen leaving for Florence so more of we can have a baby situation. I love it so much. The and times in this episode Italy Italy, Italy. In fact, I think Chad once said don't go to the Italy because he said, don't not go to the Italy because blah blah blah. I think I think that's what I heard as Fenny, who definitely do you think played the Italian man on the voicemail?

Because that was not an Italian person, was not an Italian. That was someone on the crew who wait, maybe it was Mike Leone. I was going to say it was Leone. It was because Mike, so for everyone listening, Mike Leone was our wonderful script supervisor. What a just lovely and delicious him the best heart, and he was always tasked with, you know, if there were phone calls or anything in a scene where the other person obviously wasn't there. He'd have to read the dialogue on the other end of

the phone. He always played more parts on One Tree Hill than any other human. He truly did, so I would love to know if that was his voice. Is it tell you a man that shift is on the phone. He did spend a lot of time in Italy. You know, we obviously had to get MOI were out for a bit because she was literally about to have a baby. And I gotta be honest, they did not do a good job of hiding. Just didn't care. Like she's standing there in a two shot with Craig at the airport

and I'm like, that woman is nine months pregnant. You're not even bothering to shoot above her. Tell me what are you doing? Guys? As a woman, I'm okay with this because I have not been let go from jobs but kind of scripted out because I've been pregnant. And it's like boys never like my husband didn't get scripted out when I got pregnant, you know, And so as a woman, I love that they were just like, she's pregnant,

what do you want us to do? You know, you're gonna tell a story here, closures, everybody, just suspend your imagination for a minute. You'll be fine. Part of me, I don't know, I think like loving camera work so much. I'm just like, come on, guys, you could have you could have started study camp shot over again. But I will say I love to your point. I love the fact that they were like, oh, no, will cater to her.

We will allow her to have her version of it all in this moment, because it is such a strange thing that that, um, so many women get kind of pushed aside or treated like they're an inconvenience when they're having families and and you know there if they have male partners, they never do. And so part of me loved that, And then there's a part of me that's like, wait a second, So we we wrote her out for a while so she could go like have her baby

in her maternity leave. I sure hope she was paying or play because she deserved to, you know, have that. I don't know. Everyone. We have news. Hi, We're doing a virtual event in September in honor of One Tree. Everyone in the O t h VM knows it's our favorite day and this event is also going to benefit one of our favorite groups, US Ladies are raising money for kind campaign because they do incredible work in schools to end bullying and honestly, our Tree Hill High School

needed that. Yes, Ma, Yes, So there is a lot of information forthcoming, but check out looped live dot com. They have everything right there and more info will be added soon. So we can't wait to see you guys want th h day. Well, so this this is a full circle story. So you know, by the time I had George, I was real tender about pregnancy because I'd had so many miscarriages and so the show I was working on with was Lethal Weapon and they were you know,

they're great. We got a body double for me um when I was pregnant with her, but then it was like you can't do stunts, and then traveling back and forth across the country probably isn't the best idea, So like,

why don't you sit this one out, Burton, Um. But claim Crawford, who was the lead on that show, was taking such good care of me and when I worked with him, we recognize on the very first day we worked together that we had very similar training in like how you behave on set, who you talked to, who you defend who you take care of crew friendly and I'm looking at him, I'm like, what have you worked on? Who do we know that's the same And he's like, you know Jojo, And I was like, you better. But

so Jojo was our hairdresser on One Tree Hill. I want to know how many young actors went through the JoJo's school of set adiguet because we realized that we had the same hairdresser in common and she had groomed us to you know, beat team players and to get down and dirty and move your own cast chair and all that kind of stuff. Um. But as we got to talking, he's like, you know, I almost did your show once. I was like, shut up, really, who did

you almost play? And he's like there was this date rapist that was supposed to attack your character And I'm like, what he was supposed to play? Gabe in this episode? They flew him out to Wilmington's. He had, yes, they flew him out. He went through all the fittings, he did all the things, and there was something about either like hair or a goatee or like a like a thing that he needed for another job that our show, our show wanted him to be totally clean shaven, and

I think he had a longside burns or something. They were so obsessed with hair, and they like he's sitting there in a hotel room and they're like, all right, well you're done and they they were like, you have to make this decision. Either you do what we say or you're done here. And is not that kind of guy that's like okay, you know. He was like, all right, you guys, I don't care, and he went on his mary way. And so they brought in Mike Irwin to play Gabe, who I think is a great choice because

he does come off as like, um, not predatory. He's like he looks safe. It's a surprise when he turns. You don't expect it from him. And both of the boys who played like Peyton's predators on this show, um, Matt Barr and Mike they were both like lovely behind the scenes, like so so so sweet and so it's hard when you see someone that's so lovable, you know,

get vilified. Um, but I love the claim like finally admitted He's like I was supposed to tackle you, and I'm really glad I didn't, because like, isn't weird circle. But I do want to go back to the kiss

between Keith and Karen says yes. Also, they did such a good job teasing us because when they start talking and she says, you know, you told me I had good instincts, and and he and you think they're going to talk about admitting their in love with each other, and then he says, you go first, and she says, I'm going to Italy. I mean, we all had our hands over our mouths, like no, no, no, teller. And so then when it comes back around at the airport,

my card, the payoff is delicious. I can't figure out if Karen's like working with him, like is she toy because because he has said I love you and and so she knows, like I mean, I guess I'm just trying to figure out is she trying to get him to say it sober? Like? Is it like because she keeps leaning in in these conversations, you know, And I'm like, girl, you know how he feels. What are you doing? Because

but think about it, Okay, think about it. You're in a situation but that you've loved for so long in so many ways, and now you are having romantic feelings for is piss drunk and tells you that he loves you. We wake up the next morning, are you you're not going to bring It's like you're too We're above bringing it up. I'm not going to not No, I'm not going to bring that up. Oh hey, bro, remember that time you tell me I was awesome? True? Now? Ye? So?

And because if if it was just drunk, if he if he meant it, if it was just because he was feeling it in the moment, like she deserves more than that. She deserves more than a drunken I love you.

And so I think she was coaxing and hoping that it would, you know, come back out, but not, She's just she deserves better than having to bring Do you think she's trying to get him to say, like, don't go to Italy, like stay here because that I guess that's the conversation that really threw me because she I know what she's trying to tease out of him, but I don't know why. Then when he's like you go first, She's like, Okay, I'm going to talk to you about

my ambitions. I think she was planning on talking to him about Italy the whole time. I too, because let's be honest, as an ambitious woman, what you want is to say you told me something and it's what I want, But I'm not going to put my dream on hold for it. So I'm gonna go do this thing I've been dreaming about doing it. Are you going to be You're waiting for me when I get back. Interesting, that's what she wants, right is is for him to to mean it long enough for her to go and and

have this thing for herself as an individual. I think that's why she kisses him right before she goes, because she's like, I'm going to give you something to think about for the next six weeks. But you too, maybe laugh so hard. And when we watched it, kids, you're like, she kisses to go stand in line, like like big epic kiss, and then turns around and takes like four steps and then it's like, well, I'll just be over

here through security the camera, you know whatever. They ended up because they put the camera on a track so you could tell that the way they pulled away from Craig's face that they were trying to create the illusion of her walking away looking over her shoulder and him or whatever. So I mean, I think they tried to fix it, but I just don't understand why they didn't just remove the extras and just have her Just why why don't know one fix that? Like did you control that? Yeah,

we controlled that. Why didn't anybody fix it? It's so weird. Yeah, sometimes but by the way, like goodbyes at airports are that, it's just like, yeah, okay, I'm gonna put all my shoes in my like do dads and right now while you stand right there, Yeah, I'm still here. I'm still in line. By Okay, I'm still here. Say a thirty seven times somebody, you know at the grocery store when you at the beginning of the trip and then you know, you pass every ice cream, love that men, chocolate chip,

Sunday bacon, huh where we go? Hey? What I liked in this episode that um I started to clock in the last episode is that the interactions between the kids are starting to take on like a different weight because the adults are watching so like the whole thing with Nathan and Haley outside of the cafe, even though we don't see them in that scene, it feels like more because Karen and Keith just gave Haley the like oh,

wink wink inside, like who you mean out there? You know, Like it just feels like the adults are having fun watching the kids navigate um. But it also that pressure I have felt that in real life of like, oh my good, you know, I have to explain this to my parents when I get home. It gives what you're doing a certain air of accountability because you're gonna get asked about it later. I like that, and it's just so charming to see them be like, oh, you guys,

Oh you're going on a date like cute? Great with Danson, Awesome. I couldn't have picked better for you. Great. This was also a great episode for music, not just the Switchfoot song, but the song at the end, because there was It was the first time at least I remember as we've been watching this really seeing music worked into the edit that it was very specifically, you know, the slow mo that that they did with Peyton and Brooke at the end, and lucas Um and the big kiss with Nathan and Haley.

It felt very like it was the beginning of really understanding our tone as a show, being so centered around the emotion that is evoked by music. I feel like we discovered it in this episode. Yeah, music becomes a character in this episode and remains one through the rest

of the show. It's weird to be how music became like a much bigger because it wasn't and you know, the pilot, like, you know, we had cool songs, but we all got really involved with MTV right and and Laguna Beach started airing, and you kind of started to get this really strong music influence in our genre in particular, And so you know, Peyton pivoted entirely from being an artist to all of a sudden being obsessed with music. You know, Joy went for being tutor girl to being

a musician. You know. So we just we leaned in so hard to it because we saw how successful it was and how much the fans they like that way more than they like my color and books, you know, play another Oh gosh, and being in the CD store Tombs and that's that's seen standing in the CD store likes Sam Goody and Tower Records. Did you guys have Waxy Maxie in your town? Oh? That was our Yeah, that was our Virginia thing. We had a Waxy Maxie

that was dope. Yeah, I remember, like flirting with dudes over the racks of c d s and being like, yeah, oh yeah, um my biggest bully in high school who I had such a crush on, Like, he was so mean to me and I loved him. He owns a record store back home, and my girlfriends are like, you can't go, And I'm like, but what if he's nice to me this time? And they're like, he will never be nice to you. But it makes total sense that he owns a record store. You're like, that's when did it?

He was so brutal. There was the coolest record shop in Chicago that I used to go into all the time called Shugar Sugar Records, and the guy who owns it is so lovely in him and his wife have rescue dogs, and we became like dog friends. And then he would save great presses of records that would come in for me. Those are friends to have, good friends to have. Man, all right, Um, so we need to address the deb of it all before we get into

our superlatives, ladies. Deb makes this very grand offer to Karen, which we all were like trying to sort out while we were watching it. You know, I think you know, we went from being a roofied to this like big, huge, grandiose, you know, generous thing. So, yeah, we ran the game at this episode. I don't know, how do you feel about that? Again? I think it's a bit of a device, like in the way that Brooke had to be a

monster in episode seven to drive the drama. I think you know, Moira is leaving because she's having a baby. So but the cafe is a very central place for us as a location, and they're like, well, this would be chronic cool of deb you know, did her her karmic retribution. Oh my god, it's actually hitting me in

this moment. Brooks whole thing is about fixing her karma, and deb interestingly is like paying that kind of a karmic debt with Karen and talks about how she didn't know about Karen then but she knows now and Karen had been cheated from so much in life she deserved this. Yeah,

what a beautiful, graceful thing to do. I mean, And that is so that is so consistent with who we've come to know and love about Debt, or come to know her as and love about her that she takes the high road and um that she leads by example, and is willing to sacrifice her time and in order to bridge a gap that has been a huge chasm in her family and in her community as well. It's a really incredible, self sacrificial, gracious thing to do. I'm

I'm so impressed by her in this name. And what's hitting me now is last episode she had the ultimate clap back with all the you know, rude basketball moms by putting all the Karen's goods out at the party and telling them that they all came from Karen's Cafe and sort of snapping back at that judgment. And now

she's just going to go and do this thing. It really is lovely the way they're having this, this unlikely friendship and the foreshadowing, which I know wasn't planned then, but it gave me so it put me so squarely in my feelings, Joy thinking about you and I ending this series as two women standing in that same window in that cafe having built a life together, and like in that moment looking at like I was like, oh my god, broken, Haley, do that like these unlikely friends.

It's it's so yeah, we got some really special. Yeah, it's really special. Is there anything in the actual Karen's cafe space right now do we know? I don't know. Somebody's gonna find out for us, sleuthy friends, can you tell us what's what's going on in our what's there? What's there? We need to know? Let's spend the wheel, girls, come on, do it most likely to? Oh, there's some good ones popping up. Hold on. A couple of weeks ago, it was who was most likely to get lost in

the woods? Yeah, and this one who's most likely to get lost in their own neighborhood? I mean characters? Let's think about the character? Yes, I mean yeah, absolutely, that sweet girl. Um, we need to have Bevin on because can't wait. Even though she's not like talking in the episodes, yet, Bevin was there for all, like every party ever. Bevin's there. Yeah, Bevin's character, I would say, get lost in the woods. She's pretty shark character character. Yeah. Well it's hard because

they share a name. Yeah, but so, yes, Bevin the character, not Bevin the person who of our cast would get lost in their own neighborhood. Why do I want to say? James a bad sense of direction? He lived in that neighborhood where like all the houses look the same I could never make it to James's house. Guys, it might

be me, It might be me. Listen. There was a night when Jeff and I first started dating where he was all jazz to get off work early and go to this restaurant, and I was like, know where it is? I know where it is. We drove for an hour and a half and I'm like, I'm like, it's on Wyoming Street. It's on Wyoming And he got so it was like the first time he had to not get frustrated with me. It was our first like lovers, I'm

not frustrated. Yeah yeah, and he he did this day, still teases me anytime we get lost, He's like, is it on Wyoming? And like a detail about you? Yeah? I mean this is when they made iPhones, right, Can anybody can map anymore? My Thomas Guide is still somewhere. Oh yeah, I've got that in a box. Yeah. Not not that that's a shock to anyone. Would you like a you won't need a map to find us next week? We'll be right here. Oh my god, Joy, you just came in with such a dad joke. That was fabulous.

You can always count on me Dowd jokes. Oh God, we love you all. I love you girls, and love you so we'll see you back for episode nine next week. With arms outstretched. I wonder what happens on that one. I guess we'll find out that's not that creed song isn't No, that's all right. We'll see you all next week. Bye bye, Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O t H. Or email us at

Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time. Were all about that high school drama? Girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens forever. We'll take you for a ride at our comic girl cheering for the right drama Queens up girl fashion, But you'll tough, girl. You can sit with this girl. Drama Queens, Drama QUEZ Drama, Queen's Drama draw MC Queen's Drama Queens