Clean Teens with Elisabeth Harnois • EP412

loved it. A lot of tongue kissing and a lot of like food on mouse stuff. Sloppy, sloppy episode, and we have a good friend before to help us get through it. Ladies and gentlemen, our friend Elizabeth Arno is our guest host with us this week. Everybody, Hi excited to be here today, hanging with you girls, oh my God, and listening are clean tea at the colleens meeting. So what the hell happened this episode? Okay, kids, let's let's go through our stats before we really dig in. This

episode originally aired January four, two thousand seven. I have no idea if in the winter of that year, people were having food fights, but we're sure we're on our show. The synopsis as written, which you know is sort of accurate but might need a little work, is with Senior

probably weeks away. Hayley's frustration over her injuries and her you know, growing pregnancy and the hormones coursing through her body, or are really overwhelming for her skills in mouth hatch a plan to help Nathan earn money for the big Dance by stripping. Brooke betrays Rachel in order to get closer to a new guy I mean, or is she

just sticking with the clean teen's alibi betrayal. I don't know if it's a betrayal, but whoever wrote this felt that way, and Peyton and Lucas resolved to be happy and to be Baker's struggling with her drug addiction to be big, struggling with her drug addiction. Dev makes a choice. It's it's a very dark choice, um the beautiful way. Kelly directed this episode. It was written by Michelle Fertney Goodman, who I don't believe was with us uh for very long.

I wish we had known what the sort of board told her to do for this episode. That would be interesting. Elizabeth, what's the last time you watch this? Yesterday? Well, yeah, not to prep for this. You're like, actually, I watched every d No, I know, I know that's what you meant. Um, it's been probably a couple of years. Yeah, a couple of years. I always have cousins who, you know, they love the show, and when I see them, they're like, let's watch an Oh that's true. Yeah, it's very sweet.

It's very sweet. So sometimes I watch it with them. Otherwise I haven't seen it. Yeah in a while. We were just at that convention in Wilmington's and yeah, there's like a good number of people wearing Clean Team, I know, the Cargan's, the sweet little babies. Yeah. I don't even

know where to start with this. I don't either, But what I am going to say is, like, in general, the Clean teen storyline, because we've got our we've got our stats here, because our producers are great, and this was six episodes in season four, But when you think about the impact of the Clean teen storyline, you know, and Hillary's shared a little bit about where that came from from her own high school experience, and you know, what worked and what didn't in terms of what the

writers did with it. But to think that all these years later, you know, just based on six episodes, it's still it's like an iconic moment in our show's history and your show. Yeah, and I'm grateful that, like when I got to, you know, being on the show, that I had one of those moments. Yeah, you know, because it is. It's fun when it's something that comes back around well from from a mostly good experience. Yeah, memory that you don't mind visiting. I love that. We talked

about it last week too. I feel like you literally walk into the show with the face of an angel, like you you just like cherubic beauty, and it there was something where I was like, yeah, I'll do whatever she tells me. Yes, totally, Like I had the feelings I think from Davis felt then watching this this uh, watching this storyline kick off, that's your magic, Like you

look like a good influence. And then and then I am for the most part, you know, I kind of was that girl a little bit and growing up because I was raised Catholic and um, I you know was later bloomer. I mean, you know ish like I wasn't like I'm one of those fifteen year old having sex. But you know what I mean, it was a later bloomer. I didn't have the ethos of no sex before marriage, but I was raised to think that way, so taking this role with kind of interesting. I think my mom

loved it until she realized where it was going. Because you couldn't possibly just be a clean teen and you had to hide hide a dark secret. Yes, yes, um, but of course that made her so much more interesting, I guess um. But yeah, I was watching it too, and I felt like, wow, I did have a very young, terrific face back then. Please. All of a sudden, I'm like, oh my god, I ever looked like that. It's insane. You do no, no, no no, I'm talking like I was like,

I didn't recognize myself for a second. It's weird. I don't know I had. Maybe it's just because I haven't. I don't watch myself a lot. I'm not, I'm not, you know, I just don't watch myself a lot. So I don't know. I feel like all of our voices are different, like every because I found the same we're talking salty broads now. No, it's you know, like sometimes in this episode where Payton's having to be all happy and dorky, and I like, I don't know that kid.

I'm like, oh, who's that? We all have such higher pitched voices, and our mannerisms are kind of like, I don't know, green, and we're just babies. It's crazy that anyone thought of us as anything other than like children. Yeah, precisely. What do you remember about getting this phone call to come on the show? Baby? Um? I remember my origin story is um? Yes, Um, you know it was actually you,

two lovely ladies, you and Daniel. I had worked with you each separately on two different films, and um, I know that you had sort of you know, passed the idea along to to our producer, to our boss, and he seemed open to it. So I was. I felt very lucky. It wasn't like I had to audition. It was like they found thing for me to do, and that was lovely. Um, and you gave me like the the sort of like first you know, new kid in

school rundown of things. Some of that involved a little warnings, you know, a few warnings, if you know what I'm saying.

And um, and so I went into it very excited, fell feeling incredibly lucky to get to work with such a great cast and young talent, but also a little bit nervous, you know, um, wanting to be accepted, but also not knowing what my boss was going to be like, you know, and um, the first like a few days were good if I'm talking about like the like my literal first you know, getting the call, it was I

was excited getting there. I was excited. Um. Then I had to have a dinner with my boss, and um it ended with him in a appropriately um asking to come up to my where he was putting me up, and I felt this weird, um, just to like have some tea and talk more because we were having quote unquote good conversation about the character. So UM, I kind of felt like, Okay, I don't know, I felt very I didn't know what to say, so I was just

like sure, you know, I felt very uncomfortable. It was literally my first week, like the first few days, and so that kind of and then he ended up like uninvited massaging my feet. Oh yeah, so that was my like, Um, that's where I like became even cool closer, if not that I could have been, but even closer just with the group of you guys, because it was like it just made me understand so much more and also like it didn't take away my joy of like being there.

And I also knew I was a guest star, like a recurring guest start. I knew that I had a limited amount of time that if anything else did awkward did happen, and I didn't have to be there forever dealing with that. But um, that was also a part of it, unfortunately, was that introduction and it came swift and quick, and then I was like, that's not happening, and I sent him out the door, and um, he didn't.

He wasn't as gross with me after that because I kind of was like very like yeah, But everything else around it was just a fabulous experience. Everything else about it was really really fun for me because I got to be with wonderful women, wonderful strong women who were you know, kind of going through the same things and you know, well you always had really strong, big sister energy for me. Like when we met we were doing a movie. For that movie called Solstice, it was like

it was like a New Orleans food scary move. Yeah, and Liz like literally on day two is like we're friends. Now come with me and I was like, okay, great, I love this. Sorry, tell me what to do. Um. And it was great, you know. And so having someone because I always had to be kind of the rough and tumble one or like the ed like the you know, grumpy one. UM. I loved whenever you were around because

you were like, baby, sit down, I've got this. And so having you come into this tornado and be like, calm down, girls, I'm gonna say how this is done? No foot runs. It was no, but it was good to have somebody come in and validate, like, oh yeah, everything that you guys have been saying is right. If I'm being totally fair. I thought what you were saying was like I was like, there's no way it's there's no way it's as bad as that, if I'm being totally honest. And that's back in the culture of women

not being believed. I didn't believe a fellow women that it could be as bad as it was being described to me, which is the craziest part of it, you know, even though they were friends. But what I think makes sense about that is that when you hear it and someone is telling you a story about how overt it is, how consistent. It is, how out in the open it is. It's I don't even think it's that you go as far as thinking you must be exaggerating. I think what what we want to believe is it can't be that

bad because someone would do something. Someone in the room would do something that's exactly what it was. So I'm sure he's gross, but like maybe because he was really inappropriate with you. Now everything feels inappropriate, even when maybe to an outsider it doesn't look like it because if

it looked inappropriate, someone would do something. And it's such a rude awakening as a woman when you realize that that is simply not true, and especially in industry, when you are part of a machine that makes a product and you're being mistreated could potentially damage the value of the product, and you realize that your humanity is less valuable than an hour of television, the product to every adult in the room, and you go, oh, we're alone here,

and that is like, that's that's a growing up that nobody you know, nobody asks for and nobody wants. But you know, Hillary and I have talked about this so much. My experiences on another show, people were like it couldn't have been that bad, and I'm like, oh, but it was. There must be a misunderstanding. It's not a misunderstanding, it's that everyone is so afraid. Yeah, exactly like what you said.

Nobody on the outside of a situation wants to believe that something would be allowed to go that far without internet intervention and it just isn't really what it is. And as a female, I'm I'm sure that's where I came from. Was maybe they're sensitive about this because you know, if it was really that bad, that someone would intervene, and one of the adults would, oh my god, there

is no one to intervene. And he is the one that you would go to if someone were doing this to you, except he's the one doing it, So what do I do? You know, it feels so validating to have you there, though, because you have been working since you were like in diapers, and so for all of us, this was really like our first big job. But we didn't know any other reality. No, you like, we grew up watching you in Alice in Wonderland. What was that Disney Journal? Yeah, gosh, really I didn't know, as you

did listen, I watched Alice, remember that conversation. I for sure watched Alice because there was what the dude in the rollerblades? Was that the mad Hatter and the rollerblades or it was the white Rabbit. He was always late, Yeah, he could not be wearing real shoes. Always had to be skating. The rollerblades were the jam. They were hot, guys. I still have a pair of rollerblades in my garage them, but I have them. I can't bear to let them go. But I don't think I've been on them since junior.

I don't think you should. It seems like we've got brittle bones. Now, we're not bouncing. You're not gumby anymore. No, don't do that. Don't do that. Okay, So you stayed like a couple blocks from my house. I remember all of us having a party at my house. Was it a hurricane when you came over? So it must have

been a hurricane party. I've got some pictures of us, like with face paint and weird hats and like we were we went full Like what is that book about the kids who were left on the Lord of the Fly? I haven't picture of some feel licking Danielle's face. Just should we really should absolutely would love to see those. Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, what did he was her face part of a tequila shot? It might have been. I was down, but it felt safe to be like, Okay,

here's the bubble. Everybody come camp out over here, like we're going to hide out as a unit. And so whatever fantasy R boss might have had about like, oh, all the hot chicks are getting together and like this is just going to be like a chick buffet, it backfired quickly because it was like everybody he was there. Yeah, no, no, Now we're strength and numbers and we're gonna circle the wagons and hide out. Um. Yeah, and we're covered in

war paint, so watch out, watch out. Um. Had you worked, you'd worked with Daniel on Tennis Hero where her and Jensen got together, which was awesome, so funny, and then the summer that you guys worked together was the summer that I worked with Stephen Colletti on a movie in Rhode Island that Sophia was supposed to be the star of. Do you remember that movie Normal Behavior? Yeah? I remember that movie. Yeah. So, like the summer you were supposed to start in that movie you ended up doing something

different when you're doing Hitcher or something. I don't know, maybe I just remember it was like we almost got the dates to work, but there was like one week that couldn't that like couldn't be jiggered to fit, and so I didn't get to go, and I was bombed, Like can you imagine if we'd been up, Oh my god, that would have been so fun. They would have been so fun. Instead, the girls who were the leads in

that movie weren't like super into me. They were like, don't talk to us, we're having an actor meeting right now. And I was just like okay. So I ended up just like oh, and you're not an actor, You're like I thought, that's what I was doing here, That's okay. I'm good at background. Uh. So I would just hang out on my trailer steps and this like cute little boy kept coming around and he would just like it was so outgoing and like, hey, are you lonely? Do

you want to hang out? And it was Stephen Colletti, and I was like, oh you little puppy. Okay, great, And then I go back to my hotel room and call you and you give me all the gossip on Danielle Jensen hooking up and was that the one too? Yeah, honestly, this is like the weren't hiding it. It wasn't like a big it wasn't a gospel moment per se, but I guess it was that at that time in public about it, at least within their circles of friends, they were so but yeah, yeah, it's it's not money. And

look at them now and look at this. This episode is a perfect storm of all those things that summer. Yes, it is okay, So how does the episode start? What we normally do, Liz, is we just like run through this and talk about what we hated and what we loved. What did you hate? What did you love? Um, I don't want to say I hated anything I mean, because that's I'm not in the in it that much. So if I'm going to hate them, it's got to be me, right, No, no, no,

you hate other people's stuff, Hilary, I know something you hated. Listen, Sophie and I were talking about this while we watched. They're so good at writing trauma talk for Peyton and Lucas, like we can cry together like Chris. But when it comes to talking about being happy, like it was some of the most stunted dialogue. Okay, there and now I can see what you mean. Yeah, it was so bad. It's like, definitely not how teenagers talk. It's definitely not

how grown ups who are happy talk. It was like, hey, let's just be happy. Peyton's like I thought you'd never ask you only have cookies. Cookies are sexy? We were, I mean truly I did. I did really feel kind of dumbfounded watching it because we've spent years pining for this relationship. You want Lucas and Peyton to be together so badly. They're together a good point, and then like, these are two people who have had these beautiful, deep

talks who love to be together. That great episode, Um, remember Hill when it was Brooks birthday and you guys sit outside the mall in the comment that dialogue between you guys was romantic and it was sweet and it was funny and light and like, oh my god, it was like a breath of fresh air. And then we're finally getting what we want and it's like, you want a cookie? I like cookies, cookies very happy. It was so weird. I was like, are we in Sesame Street?

Like where did our friends go It didn't. I don't know how to really explain it because I'm thinking about it in real time since we've just watched the episode. But I felt like, suddenly I don't know these two anymore, Like we don't know each other. There's no inside jokes, there's no it did it did? It Absolutely felt that way. It wasn't familiar at all, And it makes no sense because we've seen you together for years. I was like, I want more of what as a viewer I have

fallen in love with for this couple. And then I don't know. We were in food fights and I was like, you've got cookie, don't getting eaten off your shoulder? And Stephen Colletti's rubbing lips, rubbing ice cream around on my face. I'm like, what is going on here? No interaction? Is it hot? Like that's not hot. Don't rub food on young women and think that that's like sexy. Time pass. I don't want to be nicky. I don't want raw egg on me. Listen besides what feels sexy or not

like my the mood was killed for me. When I saw how messy your kitchen was, I was like, they're going to make out there. There's just like there's raw eggs breeding salmonilla all over the walls. Now that's all I can Maybe that's the mark of adulthood, but that's what made me feel the most stressed. I was like, I can't, I can't, Like Peyton is going to have to clean that up. That's not fun, oh man cass um.

But I loved the boys stripping. That makes me feel like, like, uh, I've got double standards because if it were girls stripping, I'd be all mad about it. But some about those boys going for it was adorable. But also the difference with the boys. If it were girls, it would be like sexy and gyrating and gross, and you'd be like, they're in high school. The boys were purposefully silly. They're allowed to look like boys, not men. They were funny and comical, and their rhythm was off that it was

much more innocent. It really didn't feel like a strip strip act. It was much more innocent. Yeah. It was very very comedic. Yeah, and I loved Peyton going to get Haley and saying like, no, you gotta come, and Haley got out of her sadness for a minute. Nathan kind of overcomes his his embarrassment, even you finding you know the track for them, so it's the right rhythm and he'll be able to dance to it, because you

can't dance that one to beat Man. Uh. We did a cheerleading dance to that song in high school, like I did. As that we're listening to it, I'm feeling myself really wanting to do like these motions with my arms because I have a sense memory of like, no, this is how my body is supposed to move to this. Yeah, you have the muscle memory from the from the music, Liz,

were you also a cheerleader? They always wanted me to be a cheerleader, and like all my friends who were in cheerleading wanted me to be a cheerleader, and I never could because I just never was in school long enough, like to where I felt I felt like I would be a very bad commit because I wouldn't be able to be committed in the way that I should. Like they wanted a lot of time from you, and I just couldn't do it with doing you know, film and

TV and all that. So you were now like you'd leave and go to a project and have to do you know, school and like a little school trailer. Yeah, exactly exactly my tutor. Um yeah, so all the way until the end of high school. And but yeah, they asked me a lot because I had quite a few friends who are cheerleaders and I always wanted to be. You've done so many jobs like playing a high schooler, like into your thirties, Liz, and shut up? Is it weird?

Like is it weird having not just like honkered down and done high school to have like had to portray it on TV? Or do you find that it's easier just to kind of look at it from a distance. You know, I think, um, my personality, I never knew myself as not having this other thing in my life, Like I don't remember who I was before I had this other thing in my life, this acting thing in my life, you know. Um. And I think for me, I didn't I didn't want to. I didn't want high school.

I didn't want the full experience. I enjoyed that I what I had, which was this sort of best of both worlds my Handah Montana, Yes you're the real life Handam Montiva. Oh my good. But that I did because I had a supportive school who didn't give me a hard time, had supportive teachers. Um, so I could leave and you know, still graduate with honors and do all the things I did. Absolutely stop for college. That was something I always knew I was going to do, so

really I wasn't going to do it for high school. Yeah, that was hard too, because nobody wanted me to go to college. Yeah like the money, Yeah a kid. You had fun in college? Though? Where did you go to school? The best time in my life? Wesleyan University in Connecticut, so beautiful, was gorgeous. It was the best. Like I I will never regret that decision. I don't care how many jobs I know I lost. I will never regret

that decision. That's amazing for your life. Like I know that it's weird because our jobs are to portray lives on screen. But your your job is not who you are. It's like such a small piece of what you do. And I think that can be very confusing, you know, especially if you do a show for like as long as we all did, people really think that that's your

life and it's just your job. And I think it's so important, especially I would imagine for you, having been such a successful working actor from such a young age, having you know, for us again like we started really at twenty one, Like for you to have a break in your life where you just got to be yourself was probably I would not be okay today if it weren't for that time, to be honest, like because I've had When you do start that young, you absolutely have

those later in life crises of conscience, like wait, I didn't necessary I mean, yes, I loved what I was doing, but I didn't choose it for myself like my parents. My parents saw something in me and they get allowed me to do some things. They saw that I enjoyed it, but I never said, hey, this is what I want to do with my whole life. You know. I think they treated it as like a hobby that really snowballed

into a career. So I absolutely had those points in my life where I was like this, you know, I don't know that this is what I want to do forever. I always knew I wanted to be a part of it in some capacity, but I didn't know if it was what I wanted forever. And college was really really into integral and sort of helping me see that I did want to continue to do it. At least for years after. So did you study film in school? Yeah,

I studied. I was at a film major. Yeah. They have a great, great and plugging my school, great film program at Wesleyan undergrad film program, it's like one of the best. Yeah, Well you don't have to go to graduate film school. You can get a good undergrad film education. No. I mean, my my first experience working with you is like you understood the camera in a way that like

no one had haunt me, you know. And you understood like the breakdown of the script and like why like putting things in certain order, and you just understood the technicality of things in a way that I was like, oh, wow, you should be a director, you should be a producer, you know. And so in this episode, Moira got to direct us, and she's someone who started working at a young age, you know, and being a woman in this industry, it's so backwards. It doesn't matter like how long you've

been doing this. If you want to make the jump from acting to directing. They gave you so much for it. It's a very hard transition to make. It very hard transition to make. Yeah, boys do it all the time, but if you're a girl baby jumped through the hoops. Um, actually I shadowed for like, you know, the entire time I was on c SID and we and they ended up finishing the show, even though they said the following season. If we did another season, I would be directing finally

for four years shadowing. Um, and I didn't even need to shadow for that long to be ready to do it. But you know, it's it's it's hard. It's hard to make it happen. It's really hard to make it happen. What would you have directed different in this episode? Put

on put on your directing hat. I would have made those scenes with you and Chad feel I would have made them work on the dialogue or something, because the it really did feel kind of stilted that that sort of what exactly what Sophia was saying, Um, you know you're missing this this thing that we've been pining for for on the show for so long. And I want the I want the Rachel Rachel and um what's his name? No, I want Ross and Rachel moment. I want that kind

of feeling anytime you guys are back together, you know. Um, So for me and also when you asked me, abut high would direct things. Like most of it for me is performance stuff. That's not to say you guys didn't give a good performance. You were working with dialogue that you had. I feel real green in episodes like this, or it's like, oh, I don't know how to do that. I didn't know how to do that yet. But well,

you know who had good chemistry. You know who didn't need any help is the people on their first date Jason Brooke all of a sudden sparks. These two don't know each other. They're dialogues, very nostalgic and adorable. It's very funny. Yeah, I think, um, Stephen gosh, he was so nervous when he came in. And I will say, I really I love that he confided that in me, like in those in that early couple of scenes in the school. Because now I know him and we worked

together for so long. I can see his nerves. I can see like the tightness in his chest, like he's just like, oh God, I have to say the things and there's the camera and he's doing great. By the way, I don't mean it as a criticism. It just reads like a boy nervous on a date. Well, that's the thing. It worked so well, and and his his nerves, I think really work for Chase. And after those school days, um, he was like, I'm just really nervous. I've you know,

I've never done anything like this before. And so I was like I was trying to think of a way to help him get out of his head. And you know, we were in North Carolina and I'm me and I was like, I'm going to take you on an adventure. And I took Stephen to lunch and then I took him to the shooting range. He'd never shot a gun before, and I was like, come on, we're gonna, like, I'm

gonna teach you how to do something. Yeah. But like interestingly, I think because you know, like my dad grew up spending summers on a farm, so that was the thing

that I learned as a little kid. And and I grew up being a camp counselor and um, and did so much training in that sort of vertical that when we really like started to get to it, I was like, hey, remember twenty five minutes ago we got here and you were nervous, and now you're really in your body and you're paying attention to how your breath affects this thing that you're doing and like this is actually just kind

of science. And he was like yeah, And it's sweet because when I went back when I did that fundraiser thing for him and James Show, he told the story on that on that live and I was like, oh, Bun, you remember it the same way I do. I love that. Um but like it really we we basically used it as like an exercise to remember how to be in your body when you're doing something that raises your adrenaline.

And then that next week we shot this all these scenes where we went on this date and like, I feel like I can see the sort of night and day um like nerves to comfort in in our on screen relationship, and and that was like, that was very sweet. It was the first time I've ever felt like kind of the grown up on set babies. And I was like, oh my god, I know something I can help you, you know, And and that was like that was kind of a cool, um a cool experience to have very

cool thing you did for him. That really gets a very cool thing that you did. Yeah. I just like I wasn't really accustomed to other people, let alone boys, in our work environment being vulnerable and saying I'm really scared and I need some help, and and that honesty just made me want to do that. I was like, wow, okay, because you know, you were like, I'm going to take the best care of you now. Like I was like, okay, vulnerability was like a little baby, I will take you

under my wing. Yeah. It was just like it was very sweet, and he was always he was always like a sweet pal and I appreciated that. I didn't like being told that I had to like eat in a way that I would get ice cream all over my face so he could like wipe it off my lip. I just didn't like it. I just thought it looked weird. I don't know what is Brooke Davis ever gonna let get on her face that cute little jacket, in cute little renaissance jacket, I'm gonna make a mess. No, not

in velvetsands. We all used remember the mac lip glass that was like the stickiest on the planet. The wind blow and the leaves would be stuff to your paper on your mouth. We all learned to eat wearing mac lip glass. There is no way that Brook Davis would have ice cream on her face. We were trained so here's here's something I want to food for thought. Chase's character is based on a real dude that I knew in high school. Is he Yes. So there was a mega church in our town and all the different high

schools kind of fed into that. And there was a dude that went to a rival high school but hung out with all the megachurch girls at my high school. And he was so hot and we were all like, how is he hanging out with all of these girls that are like a lot. And he would come to our football games and he always wore a blue stocking cap, and so we didn't know his name. We just called him code Blue, like code blue, code blue, and he

was he looked just like Colletti. And so when I wanted to cast like a boy clean teen, I was like, oh, we actually had one of those, and surprise, surprise, he was mega hot. He like wasn't a weirdo. Everybody wanted to date him. He looked like Stephen Colletti and Mark was like, great, we'll just cast that guy. Your friends with him cool. And I have tried so hard to look up the original Code Blue and can't find him anywhere.

But in my heart of hearts. I want him to be like a total weirdo now as a grown up, like it would just make me feel better because he had no interest. But my trouble, my trouble with the storyline is the boy clean teen is portrayed in such a sympathetic se see light, I was gonna and you are having to manage the crazy Elizabeth like on paper

Shelley's like in that case, yeah, yeah, I have. From the beginning of the character, I tried my best to tone down the way that she was sort of just mean and just mean as opposed to someone who had a belief system that she felt strongly about. But she was like a harping person about it as opposed to just being you know, an interesting new layer of character

in the show. And so I always tried to play her a little with an under tone of sympathy sympathy even before I knew where the story was going, just because I couldn't. It just didn't feel real to me, especially also because having related to being that person who felt as you know, as a teenager, you know, I'm

not gonna. I didn't do drugs at all, Like I was a good kid as a result of being raised a certain way, and so I kind of related to her in that way, and I wanted her to be more like what I was is than what was on the page so much, you know. Um. But yeah, even in this episode, like just the way she's like just that whole exchange between her and Daniel, or her and Rachel, or she's humiliating her for you know, going out and

getting crazy. I don't know. I just I hated myself in that scene, So I guess I'm supposed to hate her. I don't know, but I felt the same way at the end when it's like, oh, it's he's he's so adorable that he's a clean teen and she's just this

annoying girl. Yeah, she's a lesing is, but she's just this mean sort of judge e human and he's got and he has, you know, a point of view and a reason for being who he is, and you know it's just his reason is that a woman broke his heart, a girl broke his heart, didn't want well, I just mean the way he is written, in the way he plays it, is that he's much more you know, yeah, or what was encouraged to play it sort of like this nice you know, we like this version of a

clean team. We don't like my version of a clean steaper because you have the same backstory. Shelley's back story is that a guy you know slept with her and then blew her off, ghosted her, and so she was heartbroken and decided to like do this, you know, renew, I had a pregnancy an abortion, so I had a lot more reasons actually to have a strong reaction to

go into clean teamdom. But again it was always portrayed very But that's the thing we talked about this when when you're when you reveal with me, you know, with Shelley and Brook happens and it it's like so obviously beating the dead horse of the Madonna complex that it's like,

were we gonna wat this is interesting? Like she's either a terrible woman who has made terrible decisions and she's all who can't keep her legs closed, or she's a prude and because she's a prude, she's miserable and shrilled to be around. And it's like, oh my god, exactly, why can't people we can't just be people? And to your point, their stories are virtually the same, and on one person it's portrayed as sexy, romantic and desirable, and on the other it's like, oh, we can't stand to

be around this person. And and I think it's really interesting to hear your perspective on how it made you feel, you know, as the person and the performer, having to do that scene with the Rachel character, because that's how I felt for so much of this show. I'd be like, why does Brooke have to treat people like this? Why? And then you know, I also loved her so much of the time and thought she was, you know, funny

and fun and I loved to play her. But when she would be like cruelly judgmental, it felt more like a caricature of what these grown up men thought girls like a girl. Yeah, how mean and judge and it's like or or maybe all the other stuff we do is cooler. The other stuff we do is what makes people relate to this person. And Yeah, It's interesting, isn't it that when you feel something that it doesn't necessarily feel authentic, it feels put on that kind of um,

that kind of intense like judge, shrillness. M M. Yeah, well maybe you just needed like a cool zip up hootie and like some pouty lips. You just needed some calculus help. Yeah, I just I need some help with my homework. Um, let's before we get into the best part of the show, um, the dance. Uh, let's talk about the Karen deb Dan of it all, because watching as a grow own up that's their storyline, just continues to be so much louder for me that now that

we're watching this as grown ups. Um, the depth, it's hard, it's I mean, it's really intense. We're just casually having an attempted suicide on the show. Yeah, I'm gonna say the exact same thing. It's very like, Um, we're going to have this man sit down and say the most hurtful thing in the most hurtful way he could say it to this person who's already struggling, And then we're going to casually have her dump some pills and then we're going to casually have him just say it's over

and then move on and go on a date. You know, he drive him away in the in the in the ambulance, and then it's over. Like well, also her son, Like we've talked about this in you know, the last couple episodes list. Uh, Nathan keeps saying I want to die, I should have died. You know, he has attempted suicide a couple of times, and it's never treated like that, like we're not calling it suicide attempts and there almost feels like there should be a trigger or just like

a trauma. Yeah. Um, And now to have his mother doing the same thing, Like, I can't imagine how stressful that is to watch if you're in the midst of going through that as a viewer, um, because it is being treated pretty casually. I've had people in my life killed themselves and I'm watching this, like, what what are we talking about here? She just takes a fistful of pills and nothing. It doesn't even ring a bell in town. Yeah.

I'm very curious to see what's going to happen in the next episode in terms of how we deal with it, um, because if we fail to talk about it, that's really going to be a a deeply intense letdown. And given the way that sometimes we do what's really good in terms of these converse stations and sometimes we really blow it, I don't know what to expect. I don't either. Yeah, it's a doozy what do you think about Karen having dinner with Dan and being all cozy with Dan? Could

you have dinner with your worst ex boyfriend ever? Absolutely not. I think it's um, I think it's like one of these TV show moments where they have to, you know, bring certain characters back together or like just to have story. You know, absolutely not, but um, you know, she's a really nice person for giving human I guess beyonded what's normal or logical. Well, and he has slowly been kind of working his way back in, and there's the story

of it all. But then, just as a viewer, like the chemistry between those two is undeniable, Like the Paul and Moira chemistry is so good, and so if if I kind of remove the story and I just watched them, I can't get enough of them. And then I think about their story and I'm like, this is going to be so bad. This is so bad. I mean thinking about over the years, she's already thrown a chair through his office window. They've run against each other for may or,

They've been in all these like altercations. Publicly, he skimmed out on child support ever for her for his child. Yeah, it's a lot to stomach. It's a lot, and I don't know. I mean, I get it. It is you know sometimes on a TV show it's like, well, what's the worst thing we could think of? I found it. They found it, and listen, I'm sure the fans loved it in somewhere or another, like or they were really and want you want you want um holds if someone writes it and it's like, hey, I need you guys

to know that was my favorite storyline. I should care to Dan so hard. Okay, if you feel that way, can you please right in so we can tell Liz, because I bet there's like two there's two or three out there, you sickos. Well, then it'll be easy for you to reach the world. We'll frame them in our office. Is like, here's the piece of evidence. It's so hard.

They really do show Dan and like this supportive light while he's saying all the stuff that he said to deb you right, Liz, like like I settled for you. Karen's the love of my life. The night before our wedding,

I went and sat outside her house. Can you imagine When I was watching it, it just sort of um rang to that same idea that you guys were talking about, or at least it in my mind, it called to that sort of like unnecessary cruelty of heart him saying it that way, you know what, you know what I mean? I did you just watch it in your skin crawls And maybe that's what they were going for, but it

felt like like a torture porn moment. Torture. Yeah, it was a verbal punch, yeah, because you know that, you know this woman is about just then just going to go and trying to hurt herself. Well, and it's interesting too to see because Dan is a narcissist, to see the swing and how awful he can be to people.

And currently he's in this moment where he is being the kindest we've seen him with Karen and he's he's helping her in the morning and Deb flips out, and the turn from when he's in that the back of the cafe with Karen to pouring water on Deb's face. You're just like, Oh, he's in there, he's in there, He's in there, and and it it actually, it strikes

me in this moment. I don't know that we've talked about this, but so much of what's true of men, you know, narcissists controlling men in relationships is it's the new relationship where they say, you make me want to be different. You're the reason I'm going to change. You've shown me what I'm capable of. For you, I want to be fill in the blank. It's like making my stomach turn. And he's in that phase with Karen. This is going to be my redemption. Now I'm going to

get what I always really wanted. But he's just as vile and awful as he's ever been with Debb because she's old news to him. Yeah, but god, how good was that moment with Karen and Dan having that dinner and she says, you know, Lucas said the most upsetting

thing to me today. And Moira did such a beautiful job with that scene because it's quiet, it's a quiet share and there's something about how low and slow it is that makes it so much more ominous than if she were confrontational, upset, freaking out like it's showing any like like like she knows something. Anything else would have not have a woman showing emotion. How unlikable goodness, but like there really, there really is something chilling about the

way she expresses the discomfort because it's the beginning. It's like it's like the seed is cracking open and he knows what's coming. Give me chills. Did you know you were going to hook up with Mouth? Let's let's just get to some funtion this episode. I was like, I feel like I needed an UM. Did you know that you and Lee were going to be hooking up on the show or is that something that like spawned later? Um? You mean when I first was asked to be part of it, I didn't know that I was going to

be paired with Mouth. Um, but I could sort of see it. I could see it as a something that would make sense in terms of UM bringing us both to a different place, and you know a big thing for him, you know, in terms of he has been a virgin, right, so when we're doing the whole, like I don't want to call it is a breakfast clubby episode, um, and you know when I end up in like leather pants with my top off holding my breasts and it

happened really fast. Like, but I think it made sense that if she was going to start to open herself back up to any kind sexuality, that he was the right person for that because I think she probably was burned by a lot of situations before. And you know, he was very He's a very sweet comes across as a very sweet individual from the beginning. It makes sense to me, and I really like that it happened. I really loved working with Lee, like Lee's he's my favorite

people so well. He represents like a safety Like I was definitely a super virgin in high school and it wasn't until I got older and was like a late bloomer, and you know, I lost my virginity to someone who was older. But I was like, God, I wish I would have lost my virginity in high school to someone who it was a big deal to, you know, like it was a big deal to Mouth. He probably made

Shelley feel really special, Yeah, very special. Yeah yeah, And I think that stuff that is yet to come for what you guys are going to go over, um is

really sweet. Yeah. Well, and a nice thing to to to be clear in a storyline like that that healthy relationships are very healing for people, m hm, you know, and and what a better person to do that with, you know than Mouth, Like to your point, such a such a good character who's really been you know, going through his paces to identify what he believes in, what kind of guy he wants to be, and yeah, where his insecurities come from. But but how he wants to

work around those things and um, I don't know. I Yeah again As a viewer, I loved watching you guys together so much. Also, Lee got buff this year. Yeah he did. By the way, let's talk about the boys dancing and everything, Like close up is on Lee. It's all Lee and his hips and his moves. His moves are great, They're so great, cut, stomach going. He's the

dancer of all of us. Really, honestly. No, that was so fun and it kind of holds true to like an authentic high high school experience where it's like you've known the same people your whole life, you've gone to school forever. The girls mature faster than the boys. The boys are like pretty scrawny and awkward, and then all of a sudden, like junior senior year, there's like shoulders and an adam's apple and like and abs and you're that guy that you never looked at, never like, Oh,

maybe you are everything I ever wanted interesting Tell me more. Yeah, mouth has that energy where it's like a sneak attack Senior year. The senior sneak attack is a hit. I love that senior year sneak attack. You couldn't put it better. I'm obsessed. I landed the hot mel Yeah you sure did, all right, So so Lafferty wins m v P this episode Lafferty Friendship. Um, and I'm like, is this acting or is this real? I was going to ask you guys,

you guys, I just need ye all to know. When we were watching this episode and they're in the locker room and Lee, you know, hits play on the mouth, hits play on the music, and and him and Skills are like, oh no, Like James was only slightly playing up his aortness and like like our sweet friend will will take you out. We'll go play pool with you. But he's not the guy who dances. Like we'd all dance.

We'd be like, let's put our purses on the floor and dance, and Lee would be in the middle, like doing a funny thing, and and I mean, what a good sport. Like I'm very proud of him because I have a man in my life for refuses to dance unless he's had way too many drinks. Um, he refuses to dance, and when he does dance, it is like he's making fun of the way that he dances. So he's like playing up how silly it is. And that's how that's what that reminded me of. In the most

loving way. I found it adorable, like so good lapperty dancing like that if it was a joke or not, because it felt like that on that fine line of like maybe this is actually a little bit real. It's like the way I think about it, Like, you know, James is such an athlete. He's a basketball player, and like I went to junior high in high school with a girl who had grown up doing ballet and a bunch of us were on dance team, and like when she would try to do anything to any hip hop song,

like her body just couldn't move that way. Like she was so elegant and long and there was no like gyrating for her, and I was I was killing me because it's like that's what it felt like watching watching Mouth and Nathan. I was like, oh my god, that's like me and my friend used to look like. And it's just so good. It's like he's very used to like the ups, the vertical the dunking, and then he asked away from side to side and he can't do it,

and it's it's perfect. And then you've got Lee like throwing his hips forward in a close up, like coming into camera with a pelvis, and you're like, oh my god. That day of filming was so fun because we were in a real strip club in Wilmington's were in uh pure Gold I want to say, which was over by the Bowling Alley. Oh I remember because everybody, by the way, we all came, all of us who went in that scene came to work that night to watch. Oh yeah, Like remember being in the back by the by video

village and we were like, it smells like vanilla. It smelled so we vanilla like po and van Yeah, like they were trying to cover up the smell of it. Was like whatever the like, body, I don't know. Yeah, I don't remember leaving nervous like at all, And I was not nervous. He was ready to shine. Antoine was super pumped. Like if he's never been to a strip club with Antoine, you have not lived it. Okay, Well then I got to get on that in meeting. Yeah, yeah,

he's a party man um, it's his second home. You know, He's just like, I love it here, this is great. Let me get on stage. And I think he loved that skills wasn't in the track suit and like came out in his boxers because if you notice, there are only every shots of Antoine, shots of Antoine because there was not a lot of control in that costume. And he's dancing and we're all like Antoine, for real, dude,

like for real, like lock it up. But you can't say anything because you don't want to make your friend uncomfortable until after the fact and then you give them so much about it. Um, you're like, thanks for limb things around. It was art was an art imitating life or life imitating art at that point. I don't know, but I was. That was one of those scenes where the lines got blurried. Yeah, and it's more redirecting so there's nothing salacious happening. It's like, you know, your big

sisters there and everything so tame and safe. Um, which was good. She was the right person boys, because she made it hilarious and sweet. It didn't feel gross and that was so nice and I would imagine very nice for them. Well and even the choice for Bevan's wardrobe. It's like not like a bra, It's like it's like this whole like corset thing. It's like very conservative. Yeah, God, bless God, bless him. It was wonderful. I definitely think

we do this thing, Liz. We we've started doing this season called honorable mention, and like James is for sure are honorable men. Yeah, but I feel that I feel that I can agree with that. I can agree with that. The commitment he showed was very impressive. Thank God, like for Joy too to be able to just like laugh and have fun because the chemistry between those two, you know, she just has this like huge hormonal freak out and over like a dress which been there done that hormones

um kind of a dump storyline for her. I wish they gave her like more to do, considering she's been hit by a car and she's pregnant in high school. There's like real going on. The dress is the thing that sends her over the edge. Their chemistry, like when she is teasing him about it and has that gold thong and tells him she wants a laugh dance, Like

I turned red. That was so funny. There's nothing better than like like seeing your partner in a really humiliating situation and watching them just kind of like man up through it when they're a good sport. Yeah, the good sport. That's what I like. That's it's kind of hot, so funny. I have to say, there's one thing that stuck out to me in this episode. I know we've done our

honorable mention. I don't know what to call this. It was like the question mark for me where I was like, what is happening when you know we're in this moment where we're finally getting to see Peyton and Lucas happy. The writers haven't figured out how to write it, but you guys, you guys know how to act like yours is what we're doing. We're like, what the words aren't there, but the tongue is guys, these words are terrible. You know what this Let's just do this. I but I

was so confused. Like I liked the gesture of of Peyton taking Lucas to see her mom. I was like, Okay, the cemetery moment, I was like, okay, we're because what we're trying to say is that these things that have made her sad because of him, make her happy, and then we all were super Liz, Like Hillary and I both started like freaking out when then he walked over to keiths grave and then they were like smiling. We were like, what is this trauma bond? Like why are

they why did they write it this way? And then I went oh, because again you got to do this in TV right, Like it's the device to allow the flashback to happen for when Lucas has been unconscious and you've seen Peyton at the cemetery. It's all leading to Jimmy didn't kill Keith. So once the flashback happened, we were like, oh, okay, we get it, like we know why this is why this had to happen. Um, But man, I mean Hillary, I guess I just was wondering, like

do you remember that day? Did it Did it feel weird to you? Was it one of those things where you just knew you had to do it, like to get the shot, Like what was that? What was filming that? Like just saying words on paper like this episode is so weird because if you would just let the camera roll on. Chad and I we had a good time.

We had a good rapport, we had good chemistry. We could have faked words that were like fun to watch because we have to say all this clunky dialogue and then it's like we're going to have internal monologues out loud at the cemetery. None of it felt cool or funny or flirty or and so then we end with like, all right, well, let's just throw some cookies at each other. It rething felt device e And as an actor, it is not your job to correct every script or to

fix stuff. Sometimes it's just your job to hit your mark and say the dumb words on the paper. And so we did it, and we tried to have the best time doing it, and there your best. Yeah, there

are people who super love the cookie fight scene. And I will say I remember Chad and I just kind of hitting a wall shooting the cookie fight scene because we'd had to do so much like awkward band like weird stuff that when we were hunkered down behind that table, we couldn't get up and move because it would have

messed up continuity. And we were in very similar physical positions to the school shooting, and that had been the last time he and I were kind of like stuck next to each other for an extended period of time like that, but this time we got to like have fun just like yeah, and just like be kids. And so when I'm laughing there, I'm legitimately laughing there, like we He made me laugh in that situation because he was just like, I have to eat this off your

shoulder and you're a gross person. Yeah and so and so for all of the uncomfortable dialogue throughout the course of the episode, like Chad and I really did end it on a high note, um making something that was you know, stupid, stupid food fight into a little bit of fun. We had fun. Yeah, Well, and it makes me feel excited to see as they figure out how to write for y'all from a place of happiness instead

of a place of trauma, like what's gonna come? Because again, I know we've said this a bunch, but if you can make a good scene out of so so questionable dialogue, like, imagine what the scene became when the dialogue is great, you know, And I want that, like I as a viewer, I want the payoff of seeing these two have the great moments that don't have to be in the middle of a lockdown in a school. Yeah, Like I want

I want to see the joy. Yeah, just like a random Thursday in the kitchen doing something simple, Yeah, making salt cookies. All right, we have a listener question. Okay, Sabrina, this is kind of a heavy question. Um, Sabrina is asking us. Did it seem realistic to you that there was no discussion of Haley and Nathan not keeping the baby, considering how young they are, everything Nathan and Lucas have gone through with the young parents and Nathan's basketball dreams.

I found it strange that it was assumed they would have the baby, no questions asked. Brain is going for it, ma'am. It's a great question. Yeah, Liz, you're a little bit removed from it. So, like as an outside observer, Like, storyline wise, what do you think? I think, UM choices are often made to not be too political or um. You know, maybe that's not a story line that they

were ready to tell. I will share that my character Shelley, one of the reasons why she goes into clean teens is because she's had you know, you learn all this stuff later down, but like that she you know, had an abortion. The whole thing is like very much that I feel really really guilty about it. So that was also the way it was treated for my character was that like, like I wish I hadn't done it. I'd

have to rewatch that stuff. But the language around it is very you know, sort of regret, regret, regret, Oh my god, had Shelly been like, I'm so glad I did this my life and I can see my life now and yes, it was a difficult decision. Whatever like that would never have been handled like that, and I just, yeah, I think because it's a network show, I think they're going to want to show they don't want to necessarily

show that. Well, what's really interesting to me a lot of research has been done about how the portrayal of abortion care and reproductive healthcare on television has really damaged um the reality of the issue. And there is an adage that says, you know, a character who is pregnant

absolutely not cannot have an abortion. Characters can talk about abortions they've had, but you know, they even did an analysis about it on Sex in the City, Like Samantha talks about having had two abortions, Carrie talks about having had an abortion in her twenties. But when Miranda gets pregnant and it's going to have an abortion, then she doesn't. She just has to have this space. And you know, once the character exists, basically, yes, and listen, I think

everybody's entitled to their opinions and feelings about the issue. Um, I think no one is entitled to have their feelings weigh in on someone else's health care or life or family planning. And where it's a little tricky for me is is again. And and you know, we talked about this a little bit with you know, Shelley v. Chase. This this Madonna horror complex, This this idea that women can't make decisions that you can't say, I wanted to stay in school, I didn't want to drop have to

drop out of grad school. I I didn't have a partner, I didn't have you know, the economic stability. You know, six of women who seek abortion care in America are already mother's plural. And but we tell these stories in this way that I think are really detrimental and and

have proven to be pretty harmful. And so you know, again, like we love Nathan and Haley, we love Jamie Scott, like we we love the story, but I do I will say I agree with Sabrina that, um, the timidness, you know, the desire to not be quote political, as you said, is actually is political. Like we we cartoonify the issue. We act like there aren't real questions and

real struggles. We act like Nathan and Lucas don't come from parental trauma and that you know, Lucas doesn't know inherently the experience of being a you know, raised in a household where your parent is living honor below the poverty line. Like we pretend like these issues aren't real issues for people and to be fine. And I would have loved I would love to see them having that conversation because having a conversation is just having a converse. Yeah,

I think it would have been powerful. We never see Whitey have that conversation with Nathan, Like how powerful would that have been? Have Whitey be like, hey, man, I wish I had kids. I wish, but as someone who's looking out for you, because I know you don't have parents looking out for you. Has anyone talked to you and Haley about this, like, really talked to you about it? Um?

But yeah, nobody ever brings it up. I don't think it's changed much because that the article I was telling you about I read an advance of the mid terms, you know, talking about like why why can't we have you know, very real and serious conversations about the stuff and UM and be clear that again, believe what you want to believe, but but your beliefs don't get to make the laws, and your beliefs should not impede doctors from doing their jobs, from keeping people alive. You know,

I am. There's is great O B. G. N. Natalie Crawford who does a lot of UM sort of education and activism around these issues on Instagram, and she was talking about UM. You know, a woman who she had spoken to, who whose water broke at sixteen weeks in Texas needed to have a DNC because you know, that's it, your water breaks, Like that's not a viable fetus, That baby can't be born in a nic like it's not

going to happen. Heartbreaking for that family. They wanted that baby, and the state of Texas wouldn't allow her to get care, and so her doctors literally said, we have to wait until you're septic. And they waited until she was septic to then be able to intervene because you know, then per the law, her life was in danger and she has yeah, and and basically the septic pregnancy destroyed her uterus and she's never going to be able to get pregnant. So this woman who lost her baby now will never

get to be a mom. And like that happened this year. So I don't think we're doing a good enough job in our industry that does have the ability, to Sabrina's point, to ask questions and to to give a dose of reality to these very human stories, even if they end

the same way. By the way, again, like you know, in the storyline Jamie's Brooks god son, Like I love that kid, And I think we do a disservice because then we get to situations like the one I just described, and people go, well, I didn't know that's what was happening, and that's happening every day. So I think the gap is still even if we've gotten better, I don't think we're closing the gap at the speed that we should be two to like have the conversations that we have

the you know, the power to have. And I don't know, I've never created a TV show, so I don't know what the answer is there, all right, Sabrina on our TV show We're Handle This Great trust Us. Yeah, that was a deep question. It was a deep question. Shocker. I love a deep question. Yeah. Yeah, hey, listen, should we spin a wheel for this? We should spin a week very complicated episode of O. T. H. Elizabeth. Every week we sent and we do most likely to like

senior superlatives. Oh, Liz read the question who's most likely? Who is most likely to open a nightclub? I mean, so we have to pick a character and we have to pick a real life person amongst this group of Deb and Karen open a nightclub like tricks and nightclub. Right, Yeah, I mean I thought, after this little arrangement this week, like clearly it's going to be skills and hopefully it's it's a nightclub for the ladies. Have you been watching

that Chippendale show? Oh? I haven't started, said I Like, I said, I don't watch any TV, but my husband does. While I'm just like puddling around the house and what I've seen is engaging. I'm like, tell me more chipping Dale's. Yeah, it's a it's an interesting look at like what that whole business was. And I could see I could see skills being in charge of an empire. I get it. Yeah, who who in real life is going to open up a nightclub? I mean, Daniel has the distillery, she's got

the family business beer. That's true. Open me. It wouldn't be me. I can just not absolutely take myself out of the equation. But yeah, I don't know who stays out anymore. I feel like all of us when we get together, we're like, it's ten o'clack Sophia. Sofia's trying to hang out at like a like a German Berlin and its club. Absolutely, I'm like taking it all the way underground. Yeah, my my husband and I this summer, we're like, before work gets really serious again in September,

let's go on an adventure. And we went to Abisa like that was my first time there. I was like, this is the dream. What are you talking about? I can like go and eat the best food, swim in the ocean, and then see like six amazing DJs in one night. They played for forty five minutes apiece. This is like this is sheik. I was very into it. I was like, I need to just move to a European island and do this. Hopefully, next episode we deal with some of the complications of this one. It is

season four, episode thirteen. Pictures of you about to get awesome, Liz, you're a trooper. Thank you for being with us so much fun. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O t H. Or email us at Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time. We are all about that high school drama.

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