Bedroom Talks • EP119

you we could have ever gotten. Is this spiritually clean one Tree episode. I love this episode. This episode. This episode had the same kind of like magic. Remember when we all cried in the beginning when we first watched the episode where Lucas turns to Peyton and go, hey, your art matters. It's what got here. Yeah, like we got our guy back. Yeah we did this was we got our show back. I mean this was definitely back

to echoing the first episode, echoing the pilot. Well, we had two major factors here, actually three major factors here that were fantastic, and we'll dig into all of them. Director tom Wright is a favorite of ours. Um, we had a female screenwriter, Harry Karen. You can tell a woman had her hands all over this. This is a good Karen, everybody we love her, my god. And the third is that Chad acted his ass off in this episode.

So good and so good. Yeah, and so we're going to dig into all of that joy, Why don't you give us the rundown? Give us the episode nine day? Okay? So so episode nineteen we have the title which is how can you be sure? It was a four? And Um, the synaptas that we have so history seems to be repeating itself in Tree Hill, Lucas has just learned that Brooke may be pregnant and it's a big deal. They're trying to make a decision about their future. What are

they gonna do? Um? Brooke is really stressed out, doesn't know who to go to. She seems constantly alone and trying to figure out where answers are. Meanwhile, um, there's a there's a lot to catch up on with Karen and Keith and his proposal, and also this episode is big time about the s c X with Nathan and a and the tattoo and the tattoo. There's so much to cover here, and I love the way all of it was handled. I am in love with this episode. This was delicious. Can we talk about the elephant in

the room. Yeah, let's talk about the elephant in the room because we're gonna have fun on this episode. Guys, this is gonna be a long one. Elephant in the room is that we caught so much for talking about like Lucas's character in a judgmental light because we didn't like the Carousel episode. That one was that it was real Theirst episode and the feedback we got one like we tried to laugh a lot of it off together. Um, but there was some of it that were really angry.

That was nuts. But it was like you know, allowed, allowed minority. Uh, there were some people who specifically came at Sophia in a way that we're not going to do that folks had. It was pretty gnarly, like girlsscreen grab things. I'll send it to you. It was crazy. The violence the verbal violence that well, and something I think is important for us to highlight to Like, I've really spent a long time thinking about this because I read something that like, as you know, made me unable

to sleep for days. I only know how to make sense of things that are very emotionally hard and triggering, whether it's for me or for you guys. By the way, y'all read the news like you know what happened to us on this show, and I only know how to make sense of that stuff by like leaning into data. It's why I know a lot about statistics. That's why I know a lot about you know, by what age

most women have experienced sexual harassment or assault. It's I've had to learn about it to understand how it happened to us, because we were smart girls, indeed, and like for us to go, oh wow, we can see that a grown man who treated all of us that way in that episode in particular, wrote himself and his like fantasies for gross male behavior into a character who we love, who's a sixteen year old by the way, yes, like it's okay for us not to like that, and like,

oh god, I'm like my chest is like shaking thinking about this. Like, guys, we don't want to talk about him, but we hated what they made Lucas do in that episode because it reminded us of a man who abused a lot of us and two then as as I'm like, well, you know, I'm trying to make sense of it with this that and the other have like fans sending me tweets from other fans saying like, Sophia is such a

militant bitch. We can't wait for her fiance to realize this and leave her like whoa you guys, well, and it just kind of defeats the purpose of a rewatch because we have such a delicious episode this week, and we couldn't enjoy it in the way that we do if we didn't criticize the stuff that was bad. You know what I mean. It's gonna be both kids. Let's all hang on for the ride, and we all remember Lucas as the Lucas in this episode, as a good

guy who showed up for people. And so for us to realize that there was a period of time where the writers wrote him to start the between us, we didn't remember that. It's blowing our minds and ps, we have a right to have our minds. Bum kids. Let's all hang something that I also think is really important. You know that Hillary, you and I have talked a lot about and enjoy you certainly witnessed for us, like Haley and Nathan started off as very beloved, but Brooke

and Peyton as characters were pitted against each other. And guys, Hillary and I've spent eighteen years getting bullied about like being bad team Brooke, Team Brooke, we hate Peyton, were team Brook. It's so intense for us, and so don't like, please just remember we haven't seen this show in eighteen years. We remember Lucas as the Lucas in this episode, a

good friend. He shows up and who talks and who listens, and so for us, it was really mind blowing to be like, oh my god, he was he was playing these girls like it was a revelation to me and like hold on a second. Yeah, So like just let us feel our feelings please, and God bless us, big, God bless us, God bless us. We learned so much in this first season and we had such good people affiliated with this specific episode. It was Moira heavy, it

was tom Right heavy. It was a female voice writing these monologues for these boys, Nathan and Lucas and Dann. Great revelations from Dan in this episode. Two Yes, okay, Joy get into it. So let's start with the Karen, the Karen and Keith, Karen and Keith. Okay, so that yeah, that was a pickup that Keith proposed at the end of the last episode. And uh wow, I it got me thinking when Lucas went to talk to Keith when Lucas was making his rounds, because in this episode, Lucas

just apparently drove around everybody's else. But when you're like anxious, when you're anxious, you're like, I'm gonna talk to everybody. Yeah, yeah, it was great. So but when he was talking with Keith, Keith was talking about how, um, how he knew Lucas when he was a baby and why he stuck around when Karen was pregnant, and it made me think about how long they had known each other. Really wow, why did it take so long for Keith to make a

move with Karen. It feels like it could have happened a lot earlier, but they got into this zone of comfort of a friendship, and I guess maybe it's hard to move past that once you are in that zone. Um, but it it hurt my heart so much for Keith, and and I really thought Karen did love him and feel those feelings for him, but I guess I guess not. So Karen says, I had to go find the rest

of me. Oh, I've got to find the rest of me. Guys, when when we watched that the three of us went, it's such a profound moment for her, And again, what a testament to Karen USh Or the writer of this episode, who who gave us a deeper perspective on everyone's feeling and motivations and the things people were struggling with. But certainly for so many of the women on screen to talk about their identities, you know, for Karen to say,

I've only ever known myself as Lucas's mother. This was my first time being alone and I want to find out who else I am. I mean, the world's a bigger place than Tree Hill. Yeah, it's so tough, But also, look, you can say that for your whole life. You can put off every new, challenging experience by saying something like that. Also, so there's another side to this. It's not just to

say I need to find myself. There's an element of like, she's just not that into you in that statement, because at the end of the day, if if you want to find yourself, you can also do that in the context of a relationship that's going to challenge you and teach you how to grow in lots of new do it together. You could do it together. We could go to Italy together. But then we wouldn't have TV drama, right corse And also, you know, it's a whammy at

the end. Then when she's given Keith this kind of um gentle letdown and he's like, you know what, You're right, there is a bigger world, and I'm out. Yeah. I don't know that Karen would have anticipated that, because in her mind when she delivers all that, she's like, your home. I want to go out and explore, you know, and I can't really do that if I'm anchored to this place and to you. And so then for him to uproot unexpectedly is like, oh, you were willing to do that? Like,

that's not anything I would have anticipated. I get it, though, if you he stuck around for sixteen years, probably in hopes that this moment would finally arrive and he would finally get the courage. And I love that he admitted

that too, Debb. He said, I've thought about this, Yes, I've imagined this moment and how it would go, and how she'd say yes for fifteen years, sex teen years and I never thought she'd say no. And to find out you spent It's not that any of that time was wasted at all, but to realize, like, oh, I've been there's been a goal I've been working towards that was never a real thing. I have to I have to go now. There's kind of no other option. How do you just keep sticking around like knocking at the

door when you know the answers? Now, I like fresh starts. I like pause and then play again. You know what I mean that that pause button is an important thing in life, and I feel like we've all done that professionally. We've taken time off work for a little while, or we've all moved out to places where we have bee hives, you know, and like that that pause and restart moment in a person's life is really important because it's like, we go through school, we do what everyone tells us

to do. We've got this chunk of our twenties who were trying to figure it out, and then you do you hit this plateau in your thirties where you're like, oh, what the hell else am I supposed to do, like I don't know, and and so they're both at that pause and restart moment and it's sad that they're not doing it together. But I don't know. Guys. Every time I see Keith and and dev together, I'm like, I know,

definitely some heat. It's sparkly when they're together. I loved her hair, by the way, I loved her hair in this that lit half up to Oh that was it. That was the win. Barbe was on full display. Man, She's it's post divorce hot. Yeah, you know what I mean. It's like, Oh, I'm gonna make him pay for this. Oh you're coming over, I'll just be working out well. I think did anyone know when Dan was going to

show up? Because we laughed about that too. So the whole time, the whole episode, Dan is just popping in places, popping into Damn's house, ding like he's just popping in. He's always driving by at an opportune moment. Guys, it's got to be a horreddit Harry Tree because Lucas is doing the same thing in this episode. It's just like, I'm a hamster on a wheel and I've got to pop in all these places. But it works. It really works, and I think it gave us a device. You know.

One of the things we were talking about when we were watching is like, and I know we've mentioned this to you guys before, but the folks we don't want to talk about who were in charge of the writer's room. Um, we're really active on those message boards that all our fans were active on. You guys made such a difference, you did because you guys, if you recall those who watched the show in no time, you did protest the Carousel episode, y'all didn't like it either, and they heard it.

And so what was so cool in this? It almost felt like Karen came in as a woman the writer, you know, not not Meyer's character. I guess I should be clear. Karen the writer came in and was like, let's get the show back on track, and basically gave in the most beautiful and un obvious way, gave Lucas a device to go around and apologize for his bad

behavior and have that beautiful experience of growth. They pulled him back over the precipice of becoming a guy and he had, Yeah, he had this awakening and he reconnected with his empathy, and he went around and they made very clear to all the fans like we're going to fix this and we're going to figure back and we're gonna don't worry. We hear you. And honestly, I love that our fans are the best fans because they were like,

where has our show gone? But this was so much about Nathan and Lucas really trying to do their best and be good guys and be the best version of themselves in all in both of their respective um scenarios. You know, Nathan not wanting to put pressure on Haley to have sex, and I love even I loved how the storylines crossed over and the conversations that Lucas and Nathan had in the locker room, even though it was

that fight was so good. It was so good. And you know what I loved in that locker rooms seen Tom did such a good job directing the boys together because you realize that Lucas is coming in hot over, did Nathan betray Haley? Also? I have feelings for Peyton. Also I've blown up my whole life. And then Nathan when he goes, why are you so tweaked? And you can see it like Chad played the recognition of oh yeah, like I'm really I'm really coming out sideways here and

I need to get my head on straight. And and it's this episode where both of these boys are implementing the lessons they've been learning through this season. They're going, Okay, I know better, I have to do better. How do I do that? And to watch boys learn that on screen in real time isn't something we got a lot of. And it's beautiful. Yeah, so a woman talking about boy characters.

It was. It was so obvious in this joy. Let's go back to the Hailey wake and Nathan up scene because when we were all super pop for nipple Ring, but to hear this drumbeat over and over and over again, I don't want to pressure you. You know, we weren't talking about consent in two thousand three, right, that was not a conversation station or two thousand four whenever. The how we did this um was was Nathan's stance on that. Like, what were your thoughts about it while you guys were

filming it? Because it is a constant drum beat the whole episode. Yeah, I and I I don't know. For me, I loved seeing that conversation happening on television with young kids in this adrange, and especially with a kid like Nathan who had clearly been around and had been actively, very active, and um, it was just like something you do, and that he has fallen in love and his feelings are now caught up and he has so much respect

for her. It's not just like a girl is a thing for me to play with until I'm done and bored and moving on to the next person. Um, this is he's he's respecting her and seeing her as a whole person. And that is something to to model to young women that they deserve a man that treats them like that or a boy that treats them like that, and to model to young men as well that a girl, a woman is a whole being. She's not just something

to play with, you know. So And at that age, God, your hormones and sex is such a intimate tender and it's the most intimate tender, you know, emotional thing, and you're exploring all these new things when you're that age. It's just such a sensitive topic. It's such a sensitive thing that that I thought they handle it so well. I loved that Nathan just wanted to make sure that

she was looking at herself and Lucas. By the way, the conversation that Haley has with Lucas in the cafe, in the cafe, yes, and he says, if you're not ready, just wait. And what was the other thing he said, Hillary, look past the moment. Yeah. Both boys say over and over and over again to her, like, in different words, look past the immediate moment, like think about this long term and and and Nathan says that in the way he's weirded out about the tattoo here it's a forever thing.

Lucas also said, I wish I had waited. Yeah, oh my dad line, do you hear a boy say that? That really got me because we never heard boys say that.

And what I thought was so interesting is in the last episode Nathan and Peyton have had this really kind exchange about their history, and then for Nathan to say, I really don't want to pressure you, and for Lucas to say, I wish I had waited, Like those were foreign concepts to the way boys were talking on screen, and what I thought was really beautiful and even how our boys were talking three episodes before yeah, I mean, yeah, they were having sex in public, and now it's like,

wait a minute, that there are consequences to this, and what I thought was beautiful, especially given the way both brothers are coming at this from their perspective. Is it actually because of how honest and vulnerable it was. It gave Haley away enjoy. You played this so beautifully. Where it wasn't this like preachy black and white girls don't

want to have sex and boys pressure them. It was like, I'm in love with him, and I am turned on by him, and I do have feelings for him, and I do want to make out with him all the time, and I can't stop thinking about him when I'm not with him, But then when we're hooking up, I also I want to stop. I don't feel ready. I hit a wall. I had never seen the fullness of all the feelings you're feeling that yes, but no, I'm scared. I want to. I don't want to. I don't know

what to do. I hadn't seen that represented like this, and and to see it in that, And I don't mean a love triangle, in the triangle of these relationships with her boyfriend and her best friend who's a guy. I just thought it was so tender and beautiful and good. I thought so too. I loved being able to show

that you can. It's okay too to acknowledge your feelings, and it's okay to acknowledge what your boundaries are, and you don't have to understand them all and you don't have to argue them away or talk yourself into or out of them if you're not ready. Just wait, joy, Did you ever have those conversations in real life? Oh? Sure, yeah, I mean I definitely did with boys that I dated. I mean I definitely was a late I mean I hate even the term late bloomer because there's just so

right school. But like, I definitely waited a long time. Um, I was out of high school and uh, and I um dated lots of guys. I was living in New York City and I would date and yeah, I would get to a point where I was like, hey, listen, I'm not I don't want to have sex. I'm just not ready. And some guys are cool and stick around for a little longer, and then eventually, like we just

kind of fizzle out. And then some of them were like, Okay, well, I mean that's great, that's fine for you, but I'm not doing that so by and then that's fine too. I mean it kind of hurts you go home and cry and eats my screen, But it's a way to weed out the assholes, you know what it is? It really yeah, it really is. So even if you're ready to just say that you're not for a little while, just to like weed out any assholes. Oh my god,

that's what Taylor tom Winson always jokes about. She's like, I say, oh, I'm not ready as a test, and then they're like, that's cool, we can wait, and I say, Charlie, you've won. It's one of my favorite jokes and are special. Oh my god, I love that. But you're right, somebody who won't risk back your boundaries, that's a sign that they don't they If they can't respect your boundaries, they can't fully respect you. So it is good. It's it's good to be honest about how you feel. And watching

you do it in this episode was so good. Yeah. I mean, it's a loaded topic, but I love the way we handled it, and I also there was one more thing that I wanted to say about all of these storylines wrapped up, especially with the teenagers. I mean, look, We've got Jake with Um, a baby with Nikki who is like a wreck and seemingly sincere trying to figure her way through, and maybe she really is sincere. There's

a lot of people who are a mess. They're sincere in the moment, and then they come up against their own blocks to you. We've got Brooke dealing with Um the serious sincere pregnancy scare and then finding out that she's not pregnant the exact moment that Lucas calls her a slut and uh, and she makes the decision to sort of give him a taste of his own medicine, which I was totally fine with, And we got out Lucas walking through his fears and anxieties. What am I

going to do? What am I gonna do? Um? And Nathan and Haley and the tattoo and the sex and in no way and through all of this mess was there any shame. And I love seeing people be able to be messy and walk each other through it and hold hands and there was no shame. It was so beautiful to see that even though people weren't always making great decisions, there was still forgiveness and space and like love on the other side of it. So I just want to say that I was really proud of our

team for creating that. Yeah, I think we are so lucky that we had Karen Ushert and Tom right at the head of this, because they were two people who always brought the best feelings and the most intimacy. And I mean, Hillary, you said it earlier, like Chad acted his ass off in this, also asked James and and those two people at the Helm gave the boys space

to be more than typical male archetypes. They pushed them to be vulnerable and and look how and the boys loved it, Like look how beautifully they did it, and then we all got to do it like uh, it was like everyone was their most um, you know, they're most and yeah, just willing to put it all on the table. And I agree, I'm just proud of us. Well let's look, let's look at that a little bit

because this was the first season of our show. When we filmed this, only like half the first season had come out at this point, and so visiting directors, like visiting people the writer's room, they didn't know us, they didn't know what we were capable of. You know, I'd been a VJ. You know, Chad had been like the bad guy on Dawson's Creek, so it would make sense that visiting directors would be like, oh, you know what he's good at smoldering. You know, let's get to do that.

You know, they didn't know us, and so when we finally started to get people that knew us and thought you can do more, you know, that's when we really were able to start turning in performances that were risky maybe and stretched the perception. Like this episode for me personally was hard to watch because I have a preteen son and we just walked through the city and he held my hand for a little while and then like and then let at a crosswalk. He was like, I'm

holding my mom's hand. What am I doing? Oh baby, He'll still like lay in my lap, but then he remembers like, oh, I have like a mustache. You know, like we're right on that cusp. And so to see Lucas rebuff his mother and lie to his mother and you know game his mother in some of these past episodes, and then to really need his mother in this episode and cry with his mother, Um, those two together were

so so it. In this episode, that scene. Oh my gosh, the scene where Chad was I mean the whole episode, he played this scared little boy thing so well toned, so well. Um, that scene with with Moira, that's got to be like when we talked to Chad, we have to ask him about that scene because that's got to be a career highlight for him. I mean, she's she's such an icon and to be able to really do a real we're not just talking about like chit chat. This isn't just like hey mom, I'm home. This is

real deep stuff. Um, And to be able to play that with such a formidable actress must have been really exciting for him. So I can't wait to ask him about that at something because it was intimidating. That was like, you know, you're going in with somebody with all the

tools and how do you keep up well? And something I loved about it too Moira And again, what space they were given with that writing that that Moira's reaction, you know, as Karen as it's script did, is that she slaps him and then they run into his room and it's his childhood room and you do realize that this is a little boy And Hillary, you said something really interesting when we were watching the episode. And again,

this is what Karen gave us as a writer. That Brooke stabbing back at Lucas when he stabs her in a way gave us Lucas back because it shook him out of his I'm out experimenting and and it's like it shakes him out of the reverie, out of that JR. It's so intense. I remember when I read that and I was like, oh God, this isn't this is a lot um. But it's so good because in a way, it's like he snaps out of the popular kid dream

and he's a kid again. Yeah, that's it. And and to watch them in his childhood bedroom with like that desk that he's probably had since he was ten, and and and more. Era delivers that performance where she's saying I'm just so scared for you, you know, and and asks how Brooke is like when have we ever seen a mom of a boy do that? And say she

must be so scared. Karen is so clearly terrified for these kids, and it it's a perspective I haven't really seen when when there's when there's something where parents are talking about teen pregnancy, and her fear let Lucas be a little boy again, and it was just ah, it was really amazing. What's good about this? It made him so Look, we all watched the episode. We know what

the end story is. Brooke. It was a false alarm, right, the sentiment of um, oh, if you told me the truth, I wouldn't have had to admit this to my mother and my father and my you know, like my friend. I wouldn't had to tell everybody about this. I wouldn't have gon to Jake. If you told me the truth. It was a catalyst for Lucas to get his together

and to do the right thing, voluntarily volunteered it. He could have kept this a secret for another couple of months, you know, because Brooke wouldn't have shown for like another three or four months. Totally could have kept it a secret,

could have played you know, I don't know what's going on. Um. Instead, he gets right in there right away, and it's like, we got to figure this out because his identity of being an unwanted child is so triggering in this moment um, the conversations that he had with Dan and then Brooke having called him Danny Jr. Let's get into that. Let's talk about Dan. You know what I think is really important because and we we've talked about this offline, the three of us, that this is the Lucas we look

back on. This is the guy we've always remembered and lionized show. Yeah, like, this is our good guy, who's our empathetic leader, who's the author, who writes the sense of he's playing, he's endgame and and so one of the things I think that's been, to be honest, triggering for all of us is to watch when by some writers Lucas was kind of hijacked and we didn't remember. It wasn't and it wasn't a good look, and we didn't we didn't remember that there was bad behavior on

Lucas's part. Honestly, we didn't. And one of the things I'm realizing that in our like what what did he do? What did he say? He said he had two girlfriends? How dare he? You know, like experience in real time is that we haven't We've always remembered Nathan being the bad guy who had a bad dad and then became a good guy because of Haley. In in these episodes, I'm really seeing the impact that again like eighteen years later,

I didn't remember. I don't know if you guys did of of exactly that that scar for Lucas of what Dan's abandonment did to him, and it like what an impactful thing for a for a kid. And and this is the episode where we really get into it, where he's not running away from it, where he's not like you know if you at the insults, where where he confronts it and he owns it and he uses it as his vulnerability when he talks to Brooke about what

kind of dad he would never want to be. When he confronts Dan about why Dan was so selfish and how he knows he could never be like him, you know, he started to experiment a little bit and realizes he isn't Dan. It's such a beautiful um moment where you see a character cement his identity as an individual. And I just I just thought it was like such a powerhouse, Um, this is this is like a this is a if we made a top ten list like this would be

on my top ten episodes for Lucas. First, sure, I think all of us also in the Lucas of it. All the episodes that were written by men. Even when Lucas was going through something, he still found a way to flirt with everyone, right, and that may have been a direction thing, that may have been what was on the page, you know, like whatever. When Lucas finds out like Brooke could be pregnant and then he runs into Peyton again on the quad, there is not a note

of impropriety. He is not flirty with Peyton in any way. He's not Like it's when he says, what did we do? You know, there's nothing um conspiratorial? What's what is? There's something conspiring about it? What's guys? Vocab conspiratorial? Is that a word? Yeah, listen, we're gonna have our drama queens. Vocab list what we had a while back. Scrapple, scrap

crap bull that's right. So I liked that they shook him up and he realized, like, oh, not every chick is a sex spot, you know, Like Peyton is Brooks best friend. Like eventually we're all going to be involved in this situation, whether we like it or not. Like, let's be thoughtful. He's thoughtful in that moment um. It

was good to see them in friend zone. Yeah, and the thoughtfulness makes the misdirection later for Brook and Peyton so delicious because it was the first time in a long time that this boy hasn't been flirting with her, that he's come to her for help. So then when Peyton turns around and says, yeah, he was so upset earlier, it's like she steps in it because it was so innocent, and you realize these people they're just missing each other,

and it's it's heartbreaking. She's real dumb, she's pond spirit tutorial. We're just like, oh, you should say the thing instead of saying the around the thing. Um, guys, we have we have not talked about one big thing that happened in this episode, which was finding out that Dan has this whole folder full of Lucas memorable memorabilia. Caught out like magazine cut out that right, yeah, well once, yeah, once I saw it on screen, I remembered, but um no,

I remembered the magazine holder. I don't know why. It's just a problem. It's like I was having some random this right. You know what else I remembered is the sheets on the bed. As soon as I saw Nathan and Haleien bed together in the apartment, I had, like you know, like sense memory. I remembered feeling feeling those sheets because they were all the same and it was the same, you know, they all smelled like props, like

they've been stored up in the problems totally. They smell like the inside of a plastic bit yeah truck, and they've been washed with the same detergent for the last like ten years. Like it was just I don't know why, but that was some sort of sense memory hit me. And then when Dan was in his office, the magazine rack behind him, like the wooden mag He's office, but they would move props around so that ended up in

Hayley's office or desk or something somehow. But I was like all things in this episode, I was like when you said it, when you were like, I remember that we were on to the next point, but I wanted to be like, is it because it's under the lamp? Like it was lit by one of the million lamps. It was such a funny choice about so many lamps. But anyway, I was. I was pretty um a pleasantly surprised to see Dan pull out this envelope with all

those clippings in it. Um I loved, you know, when Dan went into talk to Lucas in the weightlifting room. I was like, why is he in here? Why is he doing this making the rounds? Like what's the point of this conversation? And then he turned the corner of like not just being a bad guy and being like your mother should have had an abortion and you should never have, you know, been born, because I was like, God, what hustle this guy is And then he says something

I can't remember exactly what the dialogue was. There is something about you've got so much life. You've got yes, there's so much life ahead of you, and that's what

it was. It was like, that's and that's what Paul was telling us when he was on the show a few weeks ago about that he was actually looking at I was trying to in his weird, sick, twisted way, he was trying to look out for Lucas in the best way he knew how, and trying to get Lucas to see things from his perspective, even though obviously not considering Lucas's feelings or how it would affect him or impact him anyway. He was just and he really was genuinely so happy to see Lucas when he came to

the dealership. He was like, you finally think I'm not a bad guy. You know my side of things. I was the dork that when he opened up that folder, I'm like, why is Paul pictures of chat? Like I enjoy? Had to explain it. She's like, it's Lucas. He's been saving them for years, Hilary, And I'm like, all right, because he does secretly really care. He's you know, it's meaningful to him. That's that's why Dan's my favorite character. He just keeps unfolding. It's like an onion, you just

keep peeling the layers. Yeah. Well, and you know what's cool about it is it's kind of what we were talking about last week, you know, like when we were all saying our opinions on whether or not it would have been an interesting choice to have had Brooke lie about the pregnancy from the beginning. Sometimes the most misguided actions can produce the most interesting on screen journeys. And what I loved was that we had because they're sixteen,

that's really genuine scare. You know the pregnancy tests that home one says it's positive and had you ever taken a pregnancy test? And sixteen Oh my god, Oh my god. No, I was Hayley at sixteen. I've been dating my poor high school sweetheart for three years. That I was like, I'm still not ready, sweet angel. The idea of having to go by one, you know, terrifying. It's a big deal,

and I and I think about I think about. Some of the beauty of this episode to me was the innocence and the fallibility, like Lucas had been fallible and gets his innocence back, and Brooks innocence of being in love for the first time is broken, and then when he says to her that hideous thing of how do I even know it's mine? That fight in the parking lot is Chef's kiss so good, It's so good. So

you were awesome in this episode, Sophia. Yeah, we talked about Sophia's stamina because for the last like a lot of episodes, Brooke has been so hurt and so sad and isolated in her room and having to just sit by yourself and cry is so much harder than doing a scene where someone else is helping your work into it. And you know, frankly, I'm pissed that Peyton's got the reputation as the cry baby because you're outcrying, my as.

I learned a lot this year, but so good and like you can see the front of her being angry with Lucas and then how it turns at home and being able to do both is a lot of work, um, and you make it look easy. You do. Thanks. You know, it was really important for me to two I don't mean to be like hyperbolic, but it felt really important

to do right by this storyline. If you were flip about it, oh my god, but you know, given some of what we were talking about, like girls who end up in this position and get you know, left tongue out to dry, Like how scary this is, and yes, how scary it is for kids in general. Like that she goes to him and says, I really don't want to have to tell you this, but who else am

I supposed to talk to? Like it was something that I don't know why it was about it it I think because we rallied and kind of rode so hard for our characters. I was so heartbroken for her and and to show that for someone like her who on the outside looks like she has it all together, to really begin getting a window into Brooks world where she's completely alone. She has no parental support um, which she shared with Karen a little bit, which was why I

loved that. Karen in that moment also asked me because how Brooke was doing it was so thoughtful. Um, but you know, this little girl who's facing this by herself was UM, something I wanted to honor. And in that youth and in that heartbreak when he insults her and and says the thing about her that, yeah, like the thing you're you're worried people would say to you that also is up fair because it's a double standard about

boys and girls. But anyway, um, Kennel, Hello, Carousel, Carosel, caros Al, that's what she should have just said, carros Out, I'm pregnant. But you know, she stabs her, and she stabs him back, and it's a it's a reaction, it's not even a choice. And I thought it was beautiful because then she's sitting there going, oh, dear, I've said

this thing, and how do I take it back? And that scene with them, I thought was so genuine because she did need him to apologize, but the apology, it just it breaks her heart almost even more because she's because he's good that she really loved, like he's saying all the things he made her love him. It was really good. That was really good writing for for Chad and I. It was really beautiful in this sort of

cycle of the Brook and Lucas story too. Essentially bring these two back together in that bedroom and they're covered in cuts they've given to each other, like they've hurt each other, and nobody actually says I'm sorry. It's just that the communication is it just shows it's not always necessary to say. Sometimes it's necessary to say the words, but sometimes you just have to hear each other and and talk through. And I loved that he was so

willing to just say, what do you want? I will be here for you, I will do I will do whatever it takes to be a great dad. I want I want to be a good guy. I want to

do the right thing. You know. That's such a beautiful observation, Joy, because you're right, they don't apologize to each other verbally, but that scene feels so apologetic on both their parts, and they and they and they are sorry and they're yelling and they're honest about all the things that have happened between them, and I actually think that the unsaid but obvious apology of it all is what lets her

finally sit alone and just cry. And it's going to let them be okay with each other in the future as the show moves on, because they've become such good friends. Yeah, the comedy, the comedy that evolves for Brooke and Lucas like over the years, is so good and so funny, and I do think you're right. I think this really lays the foundation for an honest friendship in the future.

They both know that nothing was based in malice. Yeah, you know, and if you can get through really hard things like that with somebody, you know, you kind of know that you can get through anything. And them being able to have that as a foundation of like, yeah, we made it through some really hard and look how young we are and we figured it out, like we can do this well. And I like that we got to model it too. There's a lot we got to

model really well in this episode. The conversations around consent with Haley and Nathan, the honest apologies and like the owning of your failures and the ways you've hurt people. And I'm so curious how when we think about like the beginning of the repair of the rip for Brooke and Lucas. I'm excited to see because we still see

the rip for Brooke and Peyton. I'm excited to see how these two friends begin their repair because they remain in the end game of it family, they remain best friends and well, our middle our daughter's middle name is Brooke. What I mean exactly how do we go from this? Yes, Baby, saw your Brook. It makes me feel emotional. I love it. Um. I think the title of this episode is like bedroom talks because the bedroom talks in this episode are so strong.

We've got the Nathan and Haley bedroom talk where he spies there for the first time. We've got the Brook and Lucas bedroom talk. We've got the Karen and Lucas bedroom talk, and then we have the Haley and Peyton bedroom talk. I love that too. I love even discussed that. Yet you said the most lovely thing to her. Well, first of all, Haley pouring her heart out in a

way that isn't like she's just been so honest. Before a girl loses her virginity, she thinks most girls think about whether or not they're going to do it for a very long time. It's something that gave me like hives and and horror Show. And I was so nervous that I built up this reputation about being like I'm a clean teen. You know. I really had a club

called Clean Teen's in high school. I was like Queen Virgin and I dated a boy who was not and I remember crying in his lap, just like laying at a party, like I just need to know it's never gonna happen, and so you can tell me now if you want to, you know. And he he was lovely. He didn't um, which was nice. That like makes you feel nice when you take it off the table entirely and you're like, you know what, I like you. I

just like being around you. And Nathan says that, so Haley laying it all out, I think it was important for girls to see. Yeah, I think so too. I loved that. Um the thing that Peyton says at the chalkboard, you were painting h J plus n S equals hard. It's so cute. And you said, um, I say something about how much I'm in love with him and how I feel and all those things, and you say, well, then you went further with him than I ever did, because just acknowledging that that there's so much more to

a relationship and a connection than sex um. And I think Haley really needed to hear that. Haley got a lot of good info, good advice in this episode, I think, which is so nice because she's so often the voice of reason supporting everyone else. That's a great Yes, that's a good insight to watch her get supported and poured

into and the one place she feels lost. Yeah, and to get lots of information, you know, this information from Peyton, that nugget from Lucas, all of all of these things, so that she can understand why she feels conflicted and that that's okay. And as you so wisely said, Joy, that there's no shame in that. Yeah. I mean, you know, Hillary, you're talking about how intense it felt for you to think about it. I remember my own anxieties like you.

I hate that girls get so ashamed that they get hives thinking about that's heartbreaking, guys, It's never gonna happen, so I die. Honestly, we would go to parties. We would go to parties in high school and not drink, and like, at some point in the party. When other people started acting stupid, we'd yell out clean teens, and then the other girls would yell out versions for life,

and that was like, oh my god. It was like it was like the call and response across a party, and we thought it was so funny because we were owning the thing that other people could have picked on. Oh my god, I mean yeah, yeah, girls gets. There was one more thing too, that I want to say about Hayley's tattoo, because it just really started making me think, what,

um what an intro like that? There's so many layers in someone who would get a tattoo and sixteen years old and hide it from everyone, even her best friend. It's literally just for her. Yeah, that that's that takes a certain amount of Um. I don't know. I'm a lost, I'm a lost for vocabulary words to anymore coffee, But it has that ever happened? Did you get a secret tattoo? Aver?

I never got a secret tattoo? Mean that that takes a certain amount of introverted that I don't have, Like that's a level of I need something that's just for me, and or maybe it's just confidence, a level of self confidence that I didn't know where you can just be so comfortable that you're like, I'm getting something. I don't need to show anybody. I don't need to talk anybody but anybody about it. I'm just it's just for me.

So y'all can all bugger off, right. I haven't thought about it so much in that way, but I'm realizing, like, oh I r L, I'm Haley. When it comes to tattoos, Oh you are Do you have all those white tattoos that nobody knows? I have a Yeah, I have a lot of secret tattoos. You guys have seven tattoos and only one is in color. That's awesome and I love. I love when I show them to people who I you know, trust and love, who go, how have I

never seen this? And then they never unsee it? But and no one knows they're there, and they're just mine to do that. As an adult, that's like, it's wonderful. But as a kid at I can't because you met like we're all so desperate to be seeing, like to known firmed approved all of that stuff that for somebody to just be like, yeah, no, I'm I'm she's got another planets. So it was such a bold choice for a teenager. She had to figure out how to get

permission or get that illegally and be yeah. I mean I I started getting mine at twenty three, And truly, I think part of it was was to make sense of how intense all the eyeballs on us because of the show felt. It gave me a way to make my personhood feel like it was just for me again. Your body's a secret again, Like there's a thing you don't get to look at or touch or comment on or know about. Where are we going to put our

drama queens tattoos? I can't stop thinking about it. I have ideas if we want to talk about adults making choices. You know, we've been wishy washy on how old Nikki was um and in this in this episode, she talks about tuition money, so we know she's like right, she seems like she seems yeah. I mean, they certainly wrote her to feel that way. They hired a Manuel. She's got such good eyebrows and eye like she you know, she okay, so because she used to model and maybe

she still does, I don't know. Um And they would need to sort of paint her eyebrows in different ways, like sometimes it would be really extreme to the side or like all the way up or whatever. So she plucked her eyebrows from the arch out like toward her ears arch out. They were completely gone. There was no eyebrows there. It was just the main part. And um, I had this when I went to ledge other I just had this conversation, was like, what's going on with

your eyebrows? Because I'm so no filter? Yeah, but she told me it was because I'm modeled. And I went home and I plucked out my eyebrows from because I was like, she was so cool. She is so cool. Oh my god, that is it's you know, should we get to see a human side of her in this? But you guys, just so you know, we were all so intimated by Emmanuel because she was cool, been with those little mean poodles she carried around with her. Go, why don't we we need to have her on? Can

we get meta come? Yeah, she's cool, He's got to come on immediately. But it's interesting years people have always talked. I've gotten to note a number of times that it looked like Peyton was going to kiss her before she slapped it. And there she's a babe. Uh and we I think we wrestle in the next episode. Um, if memory serves me, I'm excited. Yeah. Yeah. We see Nikki's humanity. We see her humanity and it is really interesting. You know.

We touched on this a little bit in the last episode, but there is something one of the things that creeps in you know again that came from a room we didn't have control of. That is weird for all of us, guys, is the reality that Nikki's in college and Jake is sixteen that she does again not written by Karen, the

one of them. Yeah, she inherited this information for sure, from someone else, but that someone else cracked a joke, you know, wrote a line for Nikki to say, oh I like him young and if she's twenty in Jake sixteen, Like, we're talking about something that's not okay. And I just want to say, I know that that has been a bit triggering for some fans of the show who are realizing this information as we are, and because when we were kids we didn't even track it because we were

all around the same age. But you know, if you have experienced something like that, you know, we don't mean to be redundant, but it does feel important to continue to remind ourselves and all of you guys that if you've been through something like this, there are resources you can reach out to organizations to help you. There are wonderful online and in person support groups and therapy groups and um individual you know, resources that you can reach out to if you need support to kind of process

um something, just to even ask questions. Yeah, we don't want to be flippant about a thing that you know, in a court of law would be a statutory rape case. It is hard for us to realize that these were some of the things that we're not well modeled on on our show. Yeah, because what when she was a senior in high school, it was Jake like a freshman and eighth grader. I don't know, I mean even if she was, yeah, because we're all supposed to be we're

all supposed to be freshman or sophomore. So we're all juniors, sophomores or juniors. Yeah, yeah, and Jenny's Jenny's about a year maybe less. So, oh my god, Jake was like fourteen when they hooked up. See that's rough. Maybe she was seventeen and then like you know, had the baby the next year or something. This is bad math. Yeah, it doesn't. It just doesn't feel great for us no matter what. And and you know, I think the three of us definitely went oh and she said, I've got

spirit tuition money. We're we're like, oh we we we gotta we gotta talk about this. So but regardless, in real life, Emmanuel is fabulous, wonderful, smoking, hot, and so cool that she made or eyebrows out. Yeah, we've the least time anyone saw Emmanuel. I don't know has anyone seen her recently. I wanted to get her back when she when she drops the bomb on Lucas that she's Jenny's mother. His reaction is so good, so good. They both played that really, really, they really did. They really.

There was just no it felt like there was no acting in this episode. You know, sometimes you're doing a show, you're doing twenty two episodes and season after season, and it can start to just sometimes it just feels like you're you're a desk job. You can just you know, you know, when you're phoning it in, it's like, yeah, I got lunch and that like I'm supposed to be out of here by by noon. And I got a lunch meeting, like let's just get this over with. There

was no phoning it in in this episode. Everybody. You know that the scenes where you're supposed to be acting like this is the best time ever, where I'm like, yeah, those scenes were the ones where you're like supposed to be at a club raging, except there's way music and everyone's just fake in the morning, the wrong. Oh god, those are my Those are my nightmare. Those are the ones where I'm like, all right, channel, get it together,

get it together, think about it. Well, guys, should we like maybe look at fan questions and spin a wheel. The one thing I want to say about the end of the episode, I love how this episode ended because Lucas thanked his mother. Yes, mom, thank you if you're out there, thank your mother. Um. That was such a good note, especially for all the crap he's done in these first like eighteen episodes. You know, Yeah, it was a lovely way to end. Yeah. I'm wanting to work

with Tom right on two other shows. Have you guys gotten to work with haven't? I would love to. He did White Collar and I was like, oh my god, Tom, I'm so happy to see And then He called me because he was doing an episode of Castle and he um wanted me to come in and play a Kim Kardashian. I remember that no one would have ever thought of

me to do that. But I think what we see in this episode where they let us do things we've never done before, a good director will see the potential in you that no one else has ever seen before. So yes, that's Tom right, talk, let's do a question. We've got a fan question from Bia, which I think

is actually so genius. I wouldn't have thought about this, but we've talked in the earlier part of the episodes about how Chad had a tattoo on his shoulder and they needed to figure out how to cover it, so they gave Lucas a tattoo, and Bia is asking did Joy actually already have a tattoo? And that did that influence the Haley tattoo moment storyline, Joy, you've got tattoos, but I don't think you have one there. Oh no, no,

that was just it was just painted on. That's just me sitting in a chair and then spray me with a stencil. Um. Yeah, it was a stencil. It wasn't like a it eventually was, but the first because we only saw it twice and we didn't know how many

more times we were going to see it. So I think the first two times it was painted on and then they might have gotten a Stanci because I mean, if you see it, it it looks like a sticker at the saint right, and you know, it looks like when they would paint your tears your face with the cheerleading they are cheerleading cheek. Yeah, it was. I think it was the exact same paint, the same everything, and they just put just put some hair sprays mock on net.

We filmed it. We filmed on film, you know, so everything was kind of soft and you could like fudge things like stubble and like tattoos. Now that we shoot on HD, if you don't actually tattoo it on the person, it looks so fake. So it's a different it's a different medium. That's hilarious. It would have actually been kind of amazing if they had had to cover you having a tattoo with a like it just would have Oh,

that would have been funny. No, I don't have one, but did they because you have a cool tattoo on your foot? Did they cover that up for Haley or did they like they did h No, they covered it up most of the time. I think they were eventually. I mean there were times, and there were seasons where I was like wearing glasses in an episode randomly because I just like, I had my glasses on set and I forgot to take them off the top of my head. And then they were like, oh, Joy, Continuity, you're wearing

your glasses. And I was like, whatever, I'll just put them on my face. And then Haley has glasses for like suddenly she's got bad vision when she reads for like an episode, and there's stuff like where you'll see my tattoo and then it goes away and then it's there. I mean, Continuity is a whole life of its own on this show. Yeah, when you're working eighteen hours a day, I mean it's impossible. You do start to lose your mind a little bit. I feel like they let you

keep your foot tattoo. Once we came back after the time jump, Oh yeah, it might have been. Yeah, it could have been. Well, we'll see when we get there. I don't know. Yeah, when we get to season five, we're all going to be looking at Joy's feet. We will have an answer for you in season five. All right, here we go spinning the wheel. Most likely to be

a social media influencer Bevin Bevin. Yes, in like real life and in in pretend land, because she's so likable, Like Bevin is the girl who could do a TikTok that you're like, oh my god. Yeah, and like I'm obsessed with this company that she has started back in Wilmington's what's that? I don't know anything about Recess. Yes, it's so cool. Bevin had been like this high ranking

Soul Cycle instructor for years. Started yeah, like at the major facility here in New York, and she moved back to Wilmington and the pandemic and opened up Recess, which isn't you know it's a gym where you do things that are like fun. Jim's can be so toxic and weird, and Bevin is fun. She's walking fun. Yes, she is so fun. I mean we were like campaigning for years to get Bevan on s and now I still stand

by that. But it's it's been so cool to watch her find her passion and then, like Hillary said, you know, become like a top person in Soul Cycle which is such a huge company, and then go and start her own like what a what a legend? Yeah, wins wins. I like it when we have an easy answer, no doubt. Come back next week We've got episode twenty what is and what should Never Be? I don't know what happens

in this episode. I'm like, I don't need fetching up with everyone, um, but we've had some much fun with you. Thanks for watching this episode with us. If you're not watching along, we encourage you to do so, or at least just this episode because this one was gold. Because this one's so good, maybe watch episode nineteen twice because it's it's really that good. See you guys later, Bye, love you, Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave

us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O t H or email us at Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time. Were all about that high school drama? Girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride at our comic girl cheering for the righteen drama queens up girl fashion, but you'll tough, girl. You could sit with us, Girl Drama, Queens Drama, Queens Drama, Queen's Drama, Drama, Queen's Drama, Queens