You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand KFI AM six forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. If you're new to my show, I have a PhD in clinical psychology. I'm a psychology professor, but I am obsessed with the science of love. Producer Kayla, Do you know why I'm talking so fast? Because you're so excited because now you're engaged. No, because I said a double latte late at night. Oh my goodness, you're going to be all night. I
know. It is like my cocaine, caffeine, caffeine, this lid. I know. But my Julio took me for a really long hike today and I was feeling really sleepy, so I said, you have to stop at the Starbucks. Please get me up. Okay, So, if you missed, uh, the cliffhanger that really wasn't a cliffhanger last week on my show. Yes, I did a brave, crazy, wild thing, a gender non conforming thing, and I proposed to my boyfriend Julio, live on the
air. He swears he did not know at all. Well, if you've not seen the video, Kayla's going to post it on the KFI website. So you just go to kfiam six forty dot com, start searching doctor Wendy Walsh and she's going to post it's on my YouTube right now. Uh Kaylos, you can grab it from there the link, and thank you Tony Sorrentino, who edited for me. He was here with the three camera shoot.
I said to Julio later, you didn't suspect that there were four other people in the studio and a three camera shoot and lights and he goes, no, I just thought that's what you usually do because you're making your TikTok videos and so touch so and I and so. There is this dramatic pause. You should check it out where I my heart goes into my throat and I'm losing it because he doesn't respond at first, and then he laughs, which
makes it worse. But he explained to me later because I explained to him this other story, you know, the ruse of why I was really getting him on the show. This story was going to take five or six minutes, and I said, radio is a tight time, honey, we should rehearse it. So we rehearsed our pre segment you know, like our red herring say beforehand, and we rehearsed it like three times, and so he said. The reason why he paused is his brain said, wait, we
didn't rehearse this question. Oh what's the answer? What answer does she want me to go? Oh? Oh, it's actually the question. So there was this dramatic pause where I lost my mind. But anyway, Julio and I are now engaged. And let me tell you I've always said this, the world organizes itself socially around couplehood, and relationships are a bridge between tribes, and there is a ripple effect that kind of goes everywhere when people make
this big kind of commitment to themselves. We are planning a wedding for next summer, so you know, we had to tell his family. I posted it all over social media. We immediately get like dinner invitations from other couples, right, because now we're admitted fully into the couple world. We've been together three and a half years, we lived together, but now it's sort of legitimate in some social way. Right. But then I always say, the unconscious knows all. He gets a ping from an ex girl who used
to have the hots for him. I get a ping from an old playboy boyfriend, and you know what I do. I do not answer that text. I call right away and go, hey, guess what. I just got a gaged last night. I did, and he I started rambling away about it, what happened or whatever, and he's, well, I gotta I gotta go, because you know, I was just texting you, letting you know I'm gonna be in town next week. I didn't know about this, so I'm gonna call you right back. Okay, that was three days
ago. He didn't call me back. Okay, he didn't call me back. So anyway, I do want to say what I did was a gender non conforming thing by proposing to my boyfriend. It is not for everyone to do. This is not a message to women out there to run out and propose to your boyfriend. Let's think about what a proposal represented in history. It was always the women making the decision, still has been, and and men courted a woman to try to get her hand in marriage. Right,
he was winning the prize. Now something's flipped because we have an oversupply of successful women in the mating marketplace and women don't like to date down So as a result, they're scrambling for the small population of commitment oriented men. So women feel like they're the ones doing the chasing and trying to quote unquote get the proposal. I mean those who want a long term commitment. Not everybody
does. Okay, just gonna say that. So the way you do it, though, is you have to behave like a prize, not somebody who is needy and wants to be married. In our case, if you watch the whole segment, it was part of my Worthy of Love special. Julio has a dark past and some people might think he is not worthy of love. So in our case, my gender non conforming proposal was to say to him, you are are worthy of love and I would love to stand by you for the rest of our lives. So, by the way, it's
really easy. We were looking at like, what kind of what do you call wedding vows we're gonna do? Because you know people write their own they say all this stuff, right, eh, I said, no, let's do this traditional. We're talking about sickness, health till deathtress part you know that kind of thing, wealth, not whatever, poor, wherever it goes. Because I said, we're at that stage of our life where it's actually
going to be till death dress part. I mean, listen, even the most monogamous of humans, because of our very long life expectations, may have two or three long stints of monogamy in their life. So it seems really funny to me when I do go to a wedding and a twenty five year old says, until death drew us apart. I'm like, no, that's not going to happen. Okay, I know that, but that's natural and it's normal, and it's okay, this is your starter husband, lady.
Okay. Anyway, in our case, we're at that age, we're facing death's door. I have such a dark sense of you, and Julio tells me all the time that I do. But I do love Doug Kreamer. It's so much fun. Listen. A relationship is an exchange of care, and marriage has different meanings to different people at different stages of their lives. You may choose not to get married, by the way, I had a big white Catholic wedding for my mother in like nineteen eighty one or eighty two.
I don't even remember. By the way, Kaitly, you know what I realized today, what you know what my wedding anniversary is. When I was like twenty one years old, that big white Catholic wedding for my mother. Please don't tell me it's December third, it's today. Oh I thought it was an in proposable hilarious but it was close enough anyway, it was. It's today, happy universary. I remember his name. It's forty years
I know. I didn't take his name, and that was in the early eighties, so clearly I was like, not, yeah, it wasn't gonna happen anyway. As we get older. So in our early when we're young, we need marriage because of those vulnerable years of pregnancy, nursing, nurse raising small children. That's a time when you really need a strong, secure base. You also need it as you get older because you're exchanging real physical care. I go to his doctor's appointments with him, He goes drinking with
me, he drives me home. We need to physically care for each other. He doesn't drink at all, which is great. I have a designated driver for the rest of my life. Anyway. I love my Julio. It's very excited being engaged, and it's fun being a little bridezilla for a minute and organizing a wedding, and thank you for all of you who have been supporting us. Okay, I do want to say so there's another speaking
on the There's the getting together side and there's the breaking up side. Right, So, if you've been following the news at all this week, at the iHeart jingle Ball red carpet, we saw not a love triangle, we saw love square, a love square. You know a love square is you know. Amy Roebuck and TJ. Holmes were actually very looking virus smitten at the Iheartball, because they did they came to La first and then they went
to New York. They're really in front of those cameras, right. This is the couple who co hosted which morning show is ABC Good Morning America, Good Morning? And did they like get fired and then come back or something? They did get fired. And I will say my friend, my co hosts of my podcast, Patty Ish Kayla, was at the jingle Ball because she works for kids, and she said that she did see them on the
red carpet. His hand did not leave her. But oh the lovey doveness was real, but like not even waste Okay, so here's the thing. Now. The latest news is that their exes, which are Andrew Shue and his ex is Merrily Fiberg. I think she's an immigration attorney. So she's a smartass attorney. He's an actor with a bunch of awards behind him. They're now dating. Can you imagine? So think of it this way. This couple goes and has an affair their workplace, you know, work my
work wife, my work husband turned into work bedroom. Whatever they get together, their exes have to call each other to go. Can you believe this? And in their grieving actually fall in love. So now, I mean the big question. I was on Inside Edition this week and they asked me what about the children. I'm like, well, you know, I think is actually better than a stranger. Divorce and bring a stranger in. They kind of know. They go to each household and they know the parents pretty
well. All of the I don't know. Anyway, when we come back, I want to introduce you to a couple where that very same thing happened to them. They found out that their spouses were having an affair, so they called each other up. I'm going to find out how this came about. They met each other and they ended up falling in love and getting married. Wonder how common this is. You are listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty one live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You're
listening to KFI AM six forty on demand I Am six forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walls with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Wall Show. We're talking about the big news of Good Morning America. Co hosts who were married to other people, fell in love at work, had an affair, got exposed by the tabloids. Now we're learning that their exes are actually dating and have been dating for the last few months. My guests are Carolyn David from
Montreal, Canada. Their website is the Sexylifestyle dot Com. Carolyn David, Welcome to the show. Hey, Doctor Wendy, so nice to be chatting with you again. Thank you for staying up so late for me. So I want to know about your love story. How did you guys get together? Well, we kind of have a fun story very similar to the tabloid story where our exes fell in love with each other. We were neighbors and
friends and the whole families. Both our family skied together at Jpeak and they just got to know each other a little bit better, and right in front of our eyes, they all also fell in love with each other. And we had a big crisis and we went through two divorces together, and that's how we got together. We became a couple, and now we're married. Also, So let's talk about the trauma of this in front of your eyes. These two friendship couples who noticed first that the other two were making goo
goo eyes at each other. That was pretty obvious. We both saw what was happening. They were taking the dogs for a walk and it was just there in front of us. And so what did you do, Like, did you confront them on a ski trip or how did that all come down? You know what we learned over the years that we were not very good communicators back then, and that very well could be the basis of our relationships,
you know, breaking up. We did not have great conversations at the time when it was happening, but even our friends and our family noticed that something was going on between them, and it was not so easy to them. I don't know why. Yeah, and Carol, what was it about David, that helped you fall in love with him? And when did it happen like immediately afterwards at the same time, No, it was a very
slow process for me. David was there, we were helping each other through the divorces, so we definitely were friends and at that time we were friends with benefits, but it took a little bit longer for me to fall in love. But I remember the day, and maybe it was about a year later after we've been together, but I do remember the day when I looked at him in the morning in bed, he was still sleeping, and I
said, oh my god, I love this guy. And I told him at the time that this is like real love, like my heart was just I don't know, expanding with the Grinch's heart. I really felt it that one specific day. It was very amazing. So we need to stop and go backwards. Let's just rewind that tape a little bit. So you're both married to other people. They start having an affair and you decide you're going to be friends with benefit or were you guys all friends with benefits when you
were foursome? No, then all clarified. So after those guys told us they were leaving us. David and I got dumped on the same day, so maybe I missed it was a bad day. That was a bad day for you. That was a bad day. And even though David and I were friends already, as I told you, our couples were friends together, we spent a lot more time after that dumped day where we were consoling each other's Hey, what are we going to do? And how are we going
to handle this? And the crisis management we did together, it all helped us. And it also helped that we were having great friends would benefit sense. So you started sleeping together, how soon after you learned that your spouses were doing it that same day, the same day. So you got together and in your moment of crisis, yes, reached out to each other for love and support and a little neuro hormones and we call it a little bit of monkey sex that happened that night. Wow. And so how long have
you been together? Now? Eighteen years? Actually coming up as in our anniversary was December twenty one. Wow. Well congratulations. Now, I should say, in full honesty, you started your love relationship through a sexual relationship and learned that the two of you really enjoy sex, and that you really enjoy sex, even with other people, and so you have started a community. You have a podcast, I understand with more than a million listeners a
community of people in the swinging lifestyle. Is that correct? Correct? Absolutely? We fell into the swinging lifestyle about two years into our relationship, so we already had a very strong bond, and also we realized that our previous relationships probably failed because we were in sexless relationships, which I think by definition of having sex less than ten times per year, but I had even less than that, So our bonds actually were starting to break, and it wasn't
not a surprise that we fell in love with other people. Was not a big surprise to us because our relationships were on the brink. Yeah, I do want to say to listeners that human beings have the widest range of sexual behavior of any primate species. And although sexless mayriorgs, I've never heard that definition of less than ten times a year. Sexless to me means no sex.
But basically, some people have sex every day, some people have sex once every three months, and if you're happy, that's all that matters, right, So frequency isn't necessarily an indicator of whether a relationship is healthy according
to science. But it sounds like your relationships definitely were a mismatch for you guys, I would say so, and once we learned that are actually we realize after getting together, like I told you, with that little monkey sex, we realized that we missed it and that we kind of bowed to each other that if this is going to be and good relationship, even as a friend and the friends with benefits, that we want us to be good. We had decided at the very early on that we wanted to have good sex
together and be very communicative because we were not on exes. Yeah, at the end of the day, doesn't it all fall down to communication. Thank you so much for joining me Carol and David. If you want to find out more about them and their lifestyle, it is called the sexylifestyle dot Com.
Thanks for joining me on the Doctor Wendy Wall Show. When we come back, I don't know if if these people's not the ones I just talked to, are the celebrities The celebrities exes justified their cheating with a certain psychological trick. But according to science, those who commit adultery always rationalize their bad behavior. When we come back, let's talk about how they rationalize things. You're listening to the Doctor Wendywell Show on KFI AM six forty, were live
everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to KFI ams on DEMANDKFI AM six forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. Somebody on Instagram just asks me, is this the same desk that handle sits in? Yeah, it is you. I am in his chair. Is this his share too, Kayla? Yep. In the morning, he's in this chair. In the evening, I'm in this chair. If you'd like to come into the studio live, you can come onto my
Instagram. The handle is at doctor Wendy Walsh For those who are watching an Instagram though, if you want to download the iHeartRadio app. In the next segment, I'll be taking your calls and if you want to be able to hear the caller, you're both sides of the conversation, then you're going to need to listen on the iHeartRadio app. All right, what is adultery? Does it need much of an explanation? Adultery is when a married person voluntarily
engages in a sexual relationship with somebody outside their monogamous marriage. It can be called an extra marital affair. Now, I would also say that emotional cheating is a form of adultery, right, because nowadays people can have a work husband, workwife, they can have somebody online that they're disclosing lots of personal things too. They're developing an intimacy, and that emotional intimacy is a slippery
sloop towards physical intimacy. But you know, nobody starts cheating by saying, you know what, I'm a bad person and I'm gonna do a bad thing and I'm gonna hurt my spouse. Nobody thinks that way. In fact, they have various psychological techniques to rationalize their well negative behavior. Here are some of the things that people who cheat think, or some of all. They
may think, I deserve this. Some people rationalize that if they're not getting all of their needs met in their relationship, that therefore they deserve to get any need met outside of the relationship. Hmmm. It's almost a kind of retribution this affair, right. That is not true because nobody is responded your happiness. You know who's responsible for your happiness? You you're responsible for your happiness, and you don't do it by having an affair. You're going to
be really unhappy afterwards when you get discovered. All right, Sometimes people are rationalize I love it when I hear this light all the time. I don't know, it just happened. I didn't do it on purposes, it just happened. No, No, affairs don't just happen. They involve many many steps, phone calls, techs, meeting in private places, having all kinds of chances to say no before your clothes are completely off. They are all
kinds of steps. They don't just happen, like somehow your behavior is designed by the cosmos and cube it up there and somebody manipulates you. No. No, no, this is your behavior and your responsibility. Oh I love this one. Sometimes people will say, well, I didn't really have an affair. I just hooked up with an X, so it's not really a new person. It's somebody had sex with before anyway, Like as if there's less value in the adultery if it's somebody whose body you're already familiar with.
I don't think your spouse would agree with you on that one. Then there are people who rationalize by basically saying, well, my spouse doesn't really care about me, and they probably wouldn't even care if I cheat it. Yeah, they make up these stories in their head that their spouse wouldn't even care. Oh and then there's the missed opportunity one the people who feel like this
opportunity to cheat will never present itself ever again in my life. I mean, I'm in Vegas on a business trip and I'm talking to a supermodel in a bar. This is like winning the lottery. I have to buy the ticket. There's no other time this could ever have. You know what, You are going to be presented with opportunities to cheat every single day of your life, or I love this one. You know, I'm just not monogamous. I've just got to live with the fact that I'm not a monogamous person.
Sorry, there's no such thing. You know what, if you're shopping. Let's say you're out shopping and you see something that you really want to buy, some very expensive sneakers, and you don't have the money to buy those sneakers, do you steal them? No, you stop yourself because you're a moral person, right, you don't shoplift. Well, the same thing with cheating. You're not a non monogamous person. Anybody can be. It's
about controlling your behavior. So there's other research to show what kind of thoughts keep people from cheating, because not everybody is unfaithful to their partners, and so these researchers try to identify the reasons why people don't cheat, and they interviewed hundreds and hundreds of people. This research study was called the Reasons that Prevent People from Cheating on their partners and Evolutionary account of the propensity not to
cheat. And here's what you need to hold in your head if you want to keep yourself from cheating. I love my spouse. Think about the benefits of your relationship. Number two, I'd feels so bad if I did this. Yeah, allow yourself to feel guilty. Guilty controls your behavior. Number three. If I cheat, my spouse might cheat too. What would it feel like to be done to me? Number four? You know my spouse hasn't really done anything bad to me. I wasn't provoked in any way.
Number five consequences. Oh my gosh, my spouse would leave me and I wouldn't be able to see my kids. This would be terrible. Number six Oh, I'd feel so embarrassed. I would look like a jerk. Yeah, shame, social shame, or how about this one. I just don't want any drama in my life. I don't like drama. I don't want drama. That's a very good way to think, because it's drama when you get caught having an affair. And how about I'm going to look like a
really bad person and I'm going to lose friends. Yeah, hold those thoughts. When we come back, I am going to take your calls. The phone number is one eight hundred five two zero one KFI. That's one eight hundred five two zero one five three. Give me a call if you've got a relationship question. I'm happy to weigh in. You are listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand KFI AM six
forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Walls Show. This is the time of the show where I am taking your calls. A reminder, I am not a therapist. I'm a psychology professor. But I've written three books on relationships. My dissertation was on attachment theory, and I am obsessed with the science of love. I've also had a whole lot of life experience and I got some wisdom for you. Okay, if you'd like to call in, the number is one eight hundred five two
zero one KFI. That's one eight hundred five two zero one five three four okay, Producer Kayla, who do we have? First? We have Bruce with a question. We have Bruce. Hi, Bruce, It's doctor Wendy. Hi. Well, it's a pleasure. I've been a long time tad. So I was living with the girls who murdered almost a year and she she broke up with me because she said that her dad didn't like me. I'm a great guy. I you know, I did everything for her. I have torn so I have like a lot of time on my hands.
And so she broke up with me because her dad. She says she her dad didn't like me. And it's been for years and all of a sudden she hits me. Then she's like, my dad's dying from cancer, and I may see you want to see you? Can we hang out? And this is like two days, she's like, can we can I see you later? Can we hang out? So? How do you feel about this? So? So just a summary. So you live with a girl for a year, she broke up with you because she said her dad didn't like
you. Now it's two years later, dad is dying of cancer and she's reaching out to you. How do you feel about that? Honestly, I have knowed. I mean, I love I love this dul I noticed in high school. I'm thirty five years old. I know is high school. Oh, I think she was like crush and you really think the only reason she moved she moved out from you is because of her dad. Well that's what you're told me. You know, she was she had booken with her
boyfriend. And I had just woken with a my girlfriend for like eight years, and we just kind of like into something. We started living together. We're living together for likeabolic ten you know what I mean? So do you want to give it a chance? Do you want to give her another a second chance? What do you think? I mean? I don't I don't
know, Okay, I mean, here's what I think. Okay, And I do want to say this real quickly because I'm also alive on TikTok and my TikTokers are saying, I can't hear the guest I know, download the iHeartRadio app and you can listen to both sides of the conversation, all right, So that's why I try to summarize and repeat what they're saying. So she's reached out to you. You've known her since high school. You guys are thirty five years old. Now this is make or break time about whether
you're going to have a family or not, and a family together. She's in a time of grieving because her and fear because her dad is has cancer and it may be terminal, and she's reaching out to somebody who she can trust. Here's my advice to you, Bruce, get with her, like stay with her, but be very aware that she could do it to you again. She may be using you as a secure base or secure force during
this time. Or maybe she's saying, I made a big mistake. It was only my dad who did this, and you are the love of my life. I in my if it were me dating her, I would give her a second chance because this loss that she's potentially experiencing with her dad, maybe this motivating moment for her to finally come true. Now if you're in another relationship? Are you in another relationship? I love No? Okay, good because I don't want you breaking up with anybody for her, So I
would say, give her a chance. Bruce. This sounds like a love story that's meant to happen. You've known each other since high school. I think you should go for it. Thank you for calling. That's a good one. Okay, Producer, Kayla. Who do we have next? Hello? She was Virginia. Oh, Virginia, Hi, Virginia, It's doctor Wendy. Hi. Hi, how are you? What's your question? Much? Hi? I'm sixty one, I'm white, and I'm went out on a date with someone back in twenty twenty one, and he's black, and
he was forty six and I was fifty nine. And he convinced me to go out, and I went out and I was smitten with him, like I never gave it anyone so much younger. And we had this like love affair, and we did a lot of fun things together. We cooked, we talked, he talked about social issues like racism things, and then there were some red flags and I ended up finding out on December twenty December in twenty one that he was in a relationship for like eight years with someone and
it was devastating. So I called him out on it. And wait, so let me understand. You found out that he was in a relationship for eight years with someone while he was seeing you. Yeah, oh okay, so you called him out on it, and what did he do? And then it was? It was it was awful. So then I didn't talk to him for like a year, and then he set me flap like a message and flowers back in twenty twenty three this year in March in February, and he's like, I love you, blah blah blah, like I think
about you all the time. And my son played basketball at Syracuse. He said, he's watching the games he thinks of me. Yeah, went on, went on a couple, went on like four or five deps, and then it's just gone downhill, like we've went out and he's kind of nasty. But I don't know why that. I did you have sex with him in these four or five dates when he tried to rekindle. No, we didn't have sex until like the fifth or sixth state. Okay, so hey
got what he wanted. That's why I went downhill. Okay, you need to stop right there. This is a cheater. This is a man who will say or do anything in order to get back with you. And the easiest way to pretend to get a short term relationship is or the the easiest way to obtain a short term relationship is to pretend to want a long term relationship. Stop it with the flowers. I don't care that anybody can order flowers. Stop it with him, like, oh, I'm watching your son's
basketball game now, Oh I'm really thinking about you. You need to dump him, and you need to find a man who's not going to cheat on you, because if he cheated on her, he will cheat on you. I'm so sorry to deliver that terrible bad news, Virginia, but I have
heard these stories over and over in my life. And if you're saying it's going down here, yeah, it's going downhill because he got what he wanted this time around, and he'll he'll start to come around again when he wants it another time, and he'll do the big displays of roses and stuff. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. I'm sorry, Virginia. You got to cut him off. Okay, when we come back, I'm going to continue to take your calls. The numbers one eight hundred five two
zero, one, five three four. You are listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. Were live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app KFI AM six forty on demand