You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand AFI AM six forty. You have dr Andy Welch with you. This is the Doctor Andy Walsh Show. If you're new to my show. I have a PhD in clinical psychology. I'm not a therapist. I am a psychology professor. Students, if you're listening, we have class bright and early tomorrow morning, cal State, Channel Islands. And I am obsessed with the science of love, and I am
in love. I have a wonderful, wonderful man. Now. I was talking to somebody recently and I was saying, you know, I have spent thirty or forty years doing nothing but reading every research study that I can get my hands on out of any university on the subject of interpersonal relationships, whether it is how we communicate, or how we manage conflict, or what happens over the course of a long relationship, or what happens to people's sexual relationship.
Because we teach best what we most need to learn. And people used to say to me, you know, uh, people are calling you doctor Wendy, America's relationship expert, but you don't have a boyfriend. Well. I was a single mother for eighteen years. I put my kids first. I'll say that I've had lots of boyfriends in my life. I've had a husband, I've had other people's husbands. I have had everything, trying to figure things out, trying to live. Kayla, don't look at me like
that, Producer, Kayla. I learned so much from you because of all the life you live, Doctor Wendy, I could never judge you. Know what I always say, if you needed to lose thirty pounds, do you want the skinny Barbie Doll, naturally skinny girl to be your trainer or do you want Oprah to be your trainer? Oprah someone who's taken it off and
learned, gained it back, and has the skills to learn again. So I feel that, over the course of writing three books and a dissertation on relationship skills, that I have sort of ingested them myself, and now that I'm in a secure, loving, healthy relationship for the last three and a half years, I feel like, Wow, what else do I need to learn? Well, I'll tell you because tonight we are going to talk about
the marriage satisfaction scale. We're not married, but you know you might be something that therapists use to determine how healthy your marriage is, and then I want to talk about what therapists call the six stages of marriage. You might be in one of those stages, hopefully not one of the bad ones, and I've got some tips for how to nurture your marriage. But if you're single, don't go away. I've got all kinds of things for you too.
Maybe you're dating people who are cloud lighting you, rushing to put you on social media too early, and also a dating app that's out there creating friendships just in time for the holidays instead of just about love relationships. Okay, so before we get going, Kayla, I know you were upset earlier, so as I so is everybody I was. I was more upset last week about Susanne So losing Suzanne Summers as like someone I sort of grew up with in the TV set and I'd met her a few times. She's a
lovely, lovely person. And then today Matthew Perry. Celebrity deaths don't typically impact me. I've lost too many people that I really know, but I think Matthew Perry is probably the first celebrity death that like, I've been crying and what was your connection to him. Friends is my comfort show. It's what I watched whenever I'm having a hard time in life. I've been friends and then I also have read his book like three times, so I feel
like I know him like and I really care about him. And I was just really, I'm just so sad. So if you're just hearing it. Actor Matthew Perry found deceased in his own hot tub. We know he had a history of drug and alcohol use, but there's no evidence that he was using. In fact, he it was in recovery, right, Yeah, he said he was clean, and I know they confirmed that there were no drugs found on the scene. They released the nine on one call where they
said drowning a couple of times. And so I think that we do know that his body took a beating over the course of a few decades. I'd heard that he'd had twelve different acording to The New York Times, stomach surgeries. Yeah, he wanted too graphic detail about the damage that he's done to his body, been in a coma in the past, he's been on life support. I mean, it's just it's heartbreaking. Anyway, heart goes out
to Matthew Perry's family and friends. So of course, the first thing Julio goes is he had no wife, right, I go, no, never married, had no kids? Right, no, no kids? Reported where's the money going. He's got quite a fortune, and we're making a million dollars an episode near the end, and the residu you're still getting paid, I think, because I know he said that he didn't want to be known for friends. He wanted to be known for helping people get clean and pouring
back into that. So hopefully he had a will that is sending it to a good cause. Yeah, exactly. We'll find out, and I'm sure it will be. Uh you heard of this movie, Killers of the Flower Moon. No, it's a lot of oscar buzz. Martin Scorsese's Okay, these movies are so long. Now, okay. Oppenheimer made My Butt Go Numb and now again three hours long and a tragic story of the Osage people in Oklahoma, who were native people who are very wealthy because they lived on
an owned land that was full of oil. And it's a tragic story about white ranchers marrying their daughters and slowly killing them off in different ways so they could get the Land and about one brave o sage woman all true story based on true story who goes to Washington, d C. To get help and get FBI investigators. Anyway, it's hard to get through, not easy and fun like the Barbie movie. But I think we should all right now.
I do want to rant about the Golden Bachelor because I'm so upset and I want the producers the Golden Bachelor to hear me not only as someone who has a PhD in clinical psychology and knows about dating, mating and relating, but a woman of a certain age that would be me. Why are you putting all those women in miniskirts and shorts all the time? Okay, what they have no vercos veins? Is that what you're saying? Okay, that bothers
me. It bothers me that you're asked them. You're asking them to act like little high school schoolgirls, girls gone wild, jumping all over this guy Gary right. And then I mean these are smart, wise women of a certain age. You have April this well, during the pickleball tournament, do a fake role of her ankle to be the to pretend to be the damsel.
And I mean the gender roles are so bad, and then we're supposed to feel sorry for Sandra who's there and crying because she's missing her own daughter's wedding that day sign up exactly. And then he felt sorry for her and she got a rose for that. I'm like, really, like, this TV show is more important than your daughter's wedding. And then they do it, I'm sure fake staged fight between Kathy and Teresa Caddie girl fight, and then Gary comes in and meets each with each of them separately. It acts
fake disappointed. I just but the worst it is the never have I ever gained. It underscores the sexual double standard we're all supposed to now look down on certain women who've had more sexual experience than others. And the one who won the date this week, you know, she's on her own ATV, but she's talking about how scared she is, so she has to get off hers and get on the back of his so she can hold him, I know, and that one isn't a bad move, and they end up in
a hot tub together making out. She's sixty four, he's seventy one. No no, no, no, no no. I want to close by saying that this week I had a conversation with a woman who is sixty five going through a divorce and entering the dating scene, and she said to me, doctor Wendy, nothing works down there anymore. Why would anybody want me? And I said, it's not about that. Peers are attracted to peers across the lifespan, and it's for companionship, it's for affection, it's for
exchange of care. Don't think that you're washed up and used up because at the age of fifty fifty percent of men have erect dysfunction, at the age of sixty sixty percent at the age of seventy seventy percent, so they've got their own insecurities. Yeah, they may have more medical interventions than us. But seriously, if you think you're dating you're a woman of a certain age and it's all about the sex, you are so wrong. And that's what
the producers of The Bachelor have wrong. It's about, you know, survivorship that we've all survived, we've gotten through stuff, we have wisdom, we're smart, we have a lot to share and care to exchange. So I'm it's breaking my heart, is what I'm saying. All Right, when we come back, if you had to take the marriage satisfaction scale. How do you think your marriage would score? I'll tell you when we come back. You're listening to The Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI AM six forty We Love
Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand AFI AM six forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Wall Show. What do you mean if your love doesn't change? Love change. It's meant to go through phases and stages. By the way, producer Kayla, just to let you know, I'm gonna do my best to hit that's a cough button right there. Right something's blowing like Santa
Anna's what's blowing because I'm allergic. I've been sneezing and I do not have pretty sneezes. Just you heard something about fire season approaching. But I don't know if anything's in the air just yet, Doctor Wendy. I just think that these winds I've picked up every kind of dust all going up your nostrils. Yes, And I don't sneeze pretty. I sneeze with a big screech, A big screech. Please cough button. Uh, anyway back to love that changes and phases and stages. Look, I'm not gonna lie to you.
Long term monogamy is hard. It's not you See, you get sucked into long term monogamy by the early stages of love, when your brain gets this cocktail of neurochemicals that we love to call lust, and the person can do no wrong, and you're so excited. And so the reason why people rush to the altar. I actually know a couple that met ran off and got married, you know, within a few months, because they want to bottle up that feeling. They want to preserve it like a jar of pickles,
like we are just going to stay this way. But it doesn't work like that. People continue to grow. People are individuals, and relationships themselves grow in reaction to individuals changes. Believe me, if you had a totally enmeshed relationship which is not healthy, where nobody can remember whose problem is whose, then you don't grow as an individual, right, It's not good for your health. Change is good. That would be great if both of you
evolve together at the same time. But I'll tell you that there will be times in your long term marriage or living together relationship where you feel like you're going to completely directions. So therapists like to use something called the marriage satisfaction scale. It's a handy dandy little test often given in couples therapy to help a therapist determine, all right, how satisfied are they with this marriage? How much work do we have to do here in this couple's therapy. So
it's well respected, this little handy dandy test. It's out there in the public domain, So why don't I just tell it to you right now. Basically, they ask people to think about how much you agree or disagree with each statement to see which areas of care your relationship might need. Cayle, are you in a relationship right now? Nope? Okay, so you can't
think about your current relationship. Why don't you think about a relationship that did not work out, and then we can prove that if the score is low, that it would not work out. Okay, and I'll think about my current relationship. Okay, Okay, So you have to think about how much you agree or disagree with each statement. Number one, my partner and I understand each other perfectly. Scale a one to ten. Your old relationship one, Oh, I'm going with an eight for Julio and I. That's good.
We almost finish each other's sentences. It's only three and a half years into it. Wait, okay, number two, I am pleased with the personality, characteristics, and habits of my partner. You're shaking your head already. Yeah no, I mean, if I'm thinking of the act No. One to ten, it's one. You have the lowest score. All right, I would say, I love Okay. So here's what I do love about Julio. He's very fun and he laughs a lot. But he does
fake grumpy all the time, which is funny. But every once in a while it starts to feel real and I'm like, oh, is he really grumpy? I can't figure it out which way is going. But his habits are brilliant. He's very clean, tidy, constantly doing dishes, fold and laundry. That's all good, okay. Statement number three, I am happy with how we handle role responsibilities in our relationship. I guess gender roles, who's doing housework, who's working, who's doing what? Okay, I would
give that one of four. Okay, I'm very happy with our role responsibiliens because yeah, ten, Because again I like to cook. He likes to clean up afterwards. I get to sit there with my glass of wine. I walk into the living room and I watch my show and I listen to my man do the dishes. I've never had a relationship like that. Usually I'm like cooking and cleaning and doing everything because I'm just giving all that care. So it's great, all right. Number four, My partner understands and
sympathizes with my every mood. There's no woman that's going to give a man a ten on that really you No, I was really understanding. He's a dude. He's still a dude. He tries to intellectual and rationalize, and he's like shocked when I try to explain the feelings behind things, and he's like, I've never thought of it that way. Like they just they're missing in there from party ship. They are all right. Number five. I'm
happy about our communication and feel my partner understands me. Yeah, we're at ten. Six. Our relationship is a success. Yes, it is seven. I'm happy with how we make decisions and resolve conflicts. Yes, because you know what we do. No, honey, you go first. No, No, whatever you want to do, No, whatever you want to do we keep doing that until somebody takes over, which is usually me. My needs are being met in my relationship. Uh yeah, yeah, absolutely,
I think he would. I feel like he would put a low number on me for that. Uh here's another one. I'm happy with how we manage our leisure activities and how we spend time together. If I told you our favorite thing to do together, you would think we're the most boring couple in the world. You guys are always hiking, hiking, we do a lot together and doing picnics. But we run errands together. I just love to run errands. Yea, he could go his way to run errands and
I could go my way, but it's more fun to do together. Okay, yeah, I that is pretty more. Yeah. I am pleased with how we express affection and relate sexually. Oh yeah, because we're cudlers. We're cuddlers all night long. I am. I am satisfied the way with what with the way we handle our responsibility as parents. We don't have kids and we don't have dogs. Yay, we're fine. We're free. It's so easy. I have never regretted my relationship with my partner, not even
for a moment. No, I don't think I have come to think of it. No good there. I am satisfied with our relationship with my parents, in laws and friends, well except for his parents are alive, my parents are not. And we do like each other's friends. All good there, fine, and last but not least, I feel good about how we practice our religious beliefs and values. Yeah, we're both godless people, I guess, so can we match? What can I say? We have a
relationship? But literally, therapists often give this little scale and they ask people how much do you create? How much you disagree, and then they're able to figure out like, oh, this is the area we need to work on. So when we come back, let's talk about the six stages of marital evolution and how you can learn to nurture your marriage. If I said something before that the little made you think your relationship is vulnerable, I've got
some news for you. You're listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand AFI AM six forty. You have doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Dr Wendy Waalsh Show. Marriage is tough. All relationships are tough. Because I like to think of relationships as a gymnasium for our minds. Right, there are a lot of people who say, oh, I've had such bad luck in love that I am just going
to, you know, just take some time off for me. I'm going to practice some self care. I'm going to be abstinate, I'm not going to date. This is my time. Well, people think that somehow that is helping them grow, but it never does. All they're doing is avoiding. You See, you can't learn relationship skills unless you have a sparring partner. Unless you have you can't go to the gym and say, you know, I'm just going to sit and manifest muscles today. You need to push
on some kind of resistance to make it happen. Right, So we learn relationship skills in our relationships, and sometimes if you've been in a relationship for a long time, the big skill you learn is, oh, this is toxic. It's time to leave. That's how to leave might be the skill that you need to learn. Right. But so relationships are supposed to be a little tough. But I also remind you that the purpose of a love relationship is it is an exchange of care. We are meant to care for
each other in our most intimate relationships. In fact, people in strong secure bonds tend to live longer, have better mental and physical health along the way. However, within the course of long term monogamy, there are going to be, as I mentioned before, phases and stages, And according to therapists, there are six specific stages that many marriages, not all, will go through. We know about the first one. I call that the meet and
greet. That's the loving relationship at the very beginning, right where you just are ecstatic to do nothing but create joy for the other person, to extend that care. Oh honey, I'll do it. Let me pick up your dry cleaning, Oh of course, let me cook for you tonight, let me do what something right? Right? Right? So there is a expectation that both people's needs will be taken care of and that kindness will be reciprocated.
Now, if you're in the very early stage of dating somebody and you don't have this experience at the very beginning, get out now, like it's not going to get better at the beginning of a dating relationship. That's somebody's Academy Award winning performance of who they wish they were. So if it doesn't start out with a bang as being feeling so perfect, then move on. Don't like hope to change the person because the next stage is the honeymoon hangover.
Uh huh. That's where you actually start to notice that you're with a human being, not this perfect, magical person that you manifested, but a human being. So this human being is going to see what do we do in our relationships. We want to keep our relationship right because it's good. They're good, they're nice, it's great. Life is easy when you only have to do half the work make half the money, it's great. But you also want to do things for you and you don't want to have to
give too much to them. So it's balancing your own personal needs against the needs of relationship maintenance. And there's gonna be times where you're like, wait, they let me down. They didn't do that this time, right, So this stage, the honeymoon hangover, is where you have to learn how
to manage disappointment and be realistic. Now, too many people in the early stages of relationships when this happens, they walk out because they're like, I haven't invested that much, haven't spent too much time, I haven't spent too much money. I can get out. Lots of people in situationships that never
develop into a close, committed love bond. As soon as the human being rears their head and they see, oh my god, this isn't like a knight in shining armor, it's a human being, then they just leave right now. If they stay, therapists would say that in some marital relationships, they move into a very angry stage. I call it the retribution stage. And this is where there's kind of a struggle. I'm not going to do that. If I don't pick it up, maybe he'll pick it up.
No, I don't know he did that to me, so I'm going to do that to them. It's like retaliation. Right There are lots of surface arguments. You might be arguing about money. You might be arguing about sex. You may never have sex anymore. You might argue about time you're working all the time. I never get to spend ay more time with you.
Right now, this is a vulnerable The retribution stage is a very vulnerable stage of your relationship because if one of you is particularly selfish, you might go out and have an affair, right, So you have to be careful in this stage. Now, some people pass through the stage and decide, you know what, this relationship is actually fine. The kids are going toy taken care of, the bills are getting paid. My parents like them. The
parents are involved. It's a bridge between tribes. I'm not gonna do anything romance for this person anymore, and we're not gonna have sex very often. But it's a it's a business that's working, right. I was talking to a friend of mine recently, and she said she was talking to this guy, and even though he'd been married a long time, he just kept talking about all these she works with him, all these other women at work that he thought were hot, and this and that and and and she realized,
like, his wife is not his romantic partner in his mind. Not She wasn't sure. She didn't think he actually has affairs, but he just sort of lusts after all these other women and imagines them as his romantic piece. You know. The French, by the way, do this all the time. Historically, the who you married, because it was often for economic reasons, wasn't for who you who you were romantic involved with. I mean you always had a power more a lover on the side, right, Yeah,
and it was very accepted in French society. Anyway, Being in a committed relationship without caring for the person can lead to divorce, especially if you're dismissive and they have issues that you are not listening to. You know, if you dismiss somebody, that person being dismissed will eventually find somebody to listen to them, and that'll be a lover or a lawyer. Now, at a certain point, people start to realize whoa that person's actually and hopefully you're in
therapy and you figured this out. That person's not responsible for my happiness. I'm responsible for my own happiness. I'm also responsible for not ruining this relationship. So that may mean going, you know what, here's something I always wanted to do in life, whether it's a hobby, a trip, a job that you wanted. It's where people start to grow as individuals and still
nurture their relationship. And this is the healthy part of a good relation, good long term relationship where each partner is allowed to grow, but you don't grow to the point that you're threatening the relationship. So let's say somebody wants to take up rock climbing or something. They're not going to go away for four months. They're going to take weekends from time to time. They're also going to make sure they take other vacations with their spouse. They're going to
do both because eventually they're going to grow as a couple. And when I come back, I want to talk about ways that you can grow as a couple, how you can nurture your marriage. You're listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You're listening to KFI AM six forty on demand k I Am six forty. You have doctor Wendy Waalsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Walls
Show. You know what, if you're in a relationship and you don't feel happy right now, I want you to know that things can change, but they won't change you just let the status quo go. People often say to me, well, Doctor Wendy, I want to go to therapy. I want to go to couple's therapy. But my husband or my wife or my partner, whatever, they won't go and they don't want to fix anything. Then I tell you to go alone. Because a relationship is a living thing.
Picture it a machine with all kinds of cogs connected to each other. As one thing moves, it triggers another thing to move. So you can actually change your relationship by changing your reaction to your partner. And also remember that happiness is an inside job. Relationships don't make you happy. Happy people have happy relationships. Funny how that goes, right? And so I want you to know that if you're going through a time and there are times in
relationships that are just really stressful. Might be financial problems, it might be the burden of raising small children, let me tell you, because not for the faint a heart. It might be that someone is undergoing health problems. Right, it's you know, we were there, You're there for that person. It's not always going to be this way. Now. I want to put a little pin in that and then come on over here and say, however, if it's always been this way, then you need to ask yourself
if this is the relationship for you. I want to remind you that when till Death Do Us Part was invented, death was pretty imminent. Even the most monogamous of humans, because of our extra long life expectancies, can expect two or even three long stints of monogamy and some mate selection in between dating. Right, And so, I know it's sad when a relationship is coming
to an end, but it is part of the course of living. Right now, I wouldn't suggest ending a relationship until you've done the correct behaviors to nurture a relationship. Then, here's why divorce doesn't teach you how to find a better mate. Divorce doesn't teach you how to be a better mate. Divorce teaches you that you can survive divorce. And that's why second marriages haven't even higher divorce rate, and third marriages and even higher divorce rate. Right.
So, I want you to look to the science and the research that I'm about to explain to you and take the time to try to nurture your marriage before you jump ship, because you owe it to yourself. Right. So, there's research to show that long term committed people often engage in a
whole bunch of behaviors that are designed to sustain or nourish the relationship. And these behaviors in particular are designed to do a couple things create higher levels of commitment and create better mental health for each other, better physical health for each
other. So I read this new study today from out of the University of Illinois, and what it looked at was how certain kinds of they called the researchers call it relationship maintenance behaviors, interact with each other to create more satisfaction and more commitment in the relationship. Okay, so here are the five main relationship behaviors, the relationship maintenance behaviors that the researcher studied. Are you doing these? Positivity? Are you a positive person? You know I always say
water what you want to grow, not the weeds. If you're a negative person, who wants to be with you? Sorry? But if you can't find positivity in the person you're with in the relationship, in the day, in the sunshine and the weather, then who wants to be around you? Positivity just being a positive person has been shown to be a good good relationship maintenance behavior. Openness. Okay, I have to say because I'm so open, I mean, I wear my colors on my sleeve. Nobody can gossip
about me. They can't say any there's no dirt on me out there. You know why because I've told everybody first, right, I am probably the poster child for open. If you're in a relationship, this is not the place to hold secrets. This is not the place to be mysterious. This is the place to be honest and vulnerable and open, because then the person's not going to leave you because they see you as a vulnerable human being, not as somebody who's you know, just has this suit of armor over them.
Right. Assurances. I say this a lot. Catch your partner being good, and when your partner is feeling insecure, don't say things like you should know, you should know you look good, you should know that I love you. Look I married you, didn't I? Of course I love you. Nobody wants to hear that. What we want to hear is, oh, maybe you feel a little insecure. Am I forgetting to tell you how special you are? I love you so much. That's what you need
to be saying. Have How often have you come home from work and said to your partner? Have I told you how much I loved you today? How often you do that? That's assurances. Now here's another one. The researcher studied as a relationship maintenance behavior the use of social networks. Now I'm not talking about social media. I'm talking about if one person has the burden
of holding the brain trust of social connections. You know why people with big social connections, actually big social worlds, actually live longer in better health because they know doctors no literally, or they have a friend who knows a doctor I'm not joking, or a lawyer when they need one. Right. So, no, you have resources available to you when your social networks are big.
Now, if only one of you has this social network to rely on and the other one has none, then that's going to be a problem in your relationship. And then lastly, they looked at sharing tasks and here's the big news. The more relationship maintenance behaviors that couples performed, it did not increase commitment. Hey wait, calm down, don't freak out, because it was more complex than that. What they found is that the more relationship behaviors,
the more relationship satisfaction increased. And when you have high satisfaction, you value your partner, You're more likely to stay committed. So look in relationships, when the chips are down, people get more committed to a partner who's strong a partner they value. If a stressor comes to your relationship, if you're less satisfied with your relationship anyway, that stressful situation will just knock you
out, be like, we're not happening. So I want to remind you that if you want to keep your relationship healthy, you want to stay positive, you want to stay open, honest, don't be stingy with the assurances. Letting your partner know you're there for them. Share your social networks, and if you don't have much of a social network, start making some friends to bring into the relationship. I don't mean friends that are going to threaten
the relationship, I mean extra social resources. And share those household tasks. You know, there's so much research to show that women working, women who still do the bulk of domestic work within the house are going to get upset and leave. Dudes, she's going to leave, all right, She's tired at the end of the day, and then she comes home to a messy house and kids and everything else, and she's expected to do it all. If that's still happening in your what are you in the nineteen fifties? If
that's still happening in your relationship. You're vulnerable to divorce. I promise you you can make your relationship better. Be positive, be open, be free flowing with that love, and share those dometry responsibilities a little bit more. All right, When we come back, there's a new trend, especially among young couples, called clout lighting. It's like gas lighting, but it involves Instagram. I'll explain when we come back. You are listening to the Doctor
Wendy Walls Show a KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app KFI AM six forty on demand