This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to KF I A M six forty the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on demand on the iHeartRadio app Doctor Doctor, Bimmy Lou's I gottas loving you. KF I AM six forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Walls Show. I have a PhD in clinical psychology. I'm a psychology professor and I'm obsessed with the science of love. I've written three books on relationships, and I am happy to take your calls. Uh if you want to call the numbers one,
eight hundred and five to zero one KFI. All right, Producer, Kayla, who do we have on the line. We have Lydia with the question. Okay, Hi, Lydia, It's doctor Wendy. Hi, Doctor Wendy. So I have a question. I babysit my grandson who's two and a half years souls. I pick them up from a private Jewish school twice a week, and about a month ago I picked them up from school and his teacher came up to me and said something to me that it concerned me.
She told me that my grandson is always hungry, and that he's not taking enough food to school, that she's sometimes having to take some of the food from the other students and give it to my grandson. So I related. I related that message to my daughter in law. I told her work her words, what the teacher had said. The next I told the teacher, can you please also talk to my daughter in law let her know what you just said. Do they have to tell the parent right, yeah, exactly.
So I also told my daughter in law exactly what the teacher said. The next day, when my daughter in law went to pick up my grandson from school, the teacher said, oh, no, I did not say that. We wouldn't do that. We wouldn't take the food away from another student and give it to your son. The same person said that. The same person, Yes, how confusing for you. This is a big school, the Jewish school. They pay a lot of money for this school. And I got very upset. I told my daughter in law I am not
a liar. I never lie, no, especially about something like this. It still bothers me today because if I go and I speak to someone at that school, my son the father, I said, Mom, don't start trouble, just leave it alone? How can I leave it alone? This is a big deal. What can I do? It is a big deal. So let me ask you this, Lydia. So does your son and daughter in law believe you? They? Yes, they do, Okay, they believe me. So you're not being doubted by the people who matter?
Right? And I actually think, I mean, I feel like I'm quoting one of those columns from the New York Times, the ethicist who says, what's the ethical thing to do here? You always have to think when you're trying to make a decision, and it has to do with interpersonal relationships. I always like to say that I play a long game, never a short game. A short game is you going in and getting upset and saying how
dare you lie to me? Right? And creating more problems now. A long game is just sitting and watching, being polite, paying attention, taking notes and seeing what's happening. All right, I think you should take a long game here, take your time, see more stuff. But to cause a cause celeb over this when your son has asked you not to is going to cause a problem with your son, maybe a problem with your grandson. And definitely it's going to ruffle some feathers over at the school, so Lydia,
this is one of those. As long as your son believes you, you're going to have to suck it up for this one. I'm sorry it happened to you though. That's a terrible thing. But thanks so much for calling. Thank you all. I actually very much agree with you. Thank yeah, thank you all Right, let me go to social media. Oh my gosh, look at this one, Dear doctor Wendy. I love these questions because I get to see what's really going on out there in the world.
Is it reasonable to ask a friend I hook up with if he's hooking up with anyone at the same time as me? Okay, So, if you understand, hooking up is like a no strings attached relationship, it's a situationship. It's undefined because you're hooking up with no relationship definition. It should be assumed that they are sleeping with anybody somebody else. So it is a highly risky relationship on two levels. One it's risky because the potential to contract
an STD right. The other is because I don't actually know if this is a woman or man, Oh yeah's a woman? Is It is very common that when women start have sex regularly with the same person, they start their bodies emit a lot of oxytocin, and then they start to fall in love, they get attached. That's a big bonding hormone, right, So that's probably why you asked the question. So she says, is it reasonable to ask a friend I hook up with if he's hooking up with anyone else at
the same time? For context, now I get some background, She says, I've been hooking up with my friend for the past two months, and I asked him to be hooked up with anyone after me, and he refused to say yes or no. He said, I'm not obligated to answer that question, and I won't be saying yes or no. Just guys, the answer is yes. Okay, that's why he said that. Yes the answers yes. If the answer was no, he would have just said no. I got very upset because I want to know. I know we're not exclusive,
but I still want to know, genuinely. Is this unreasonable of me? Yes, you made a deal, which is I'm not going to ask you your business and I'm not going to pressure you for a real relationship. I'm going to have sex with you every once in a while, and I'm not going to ask for anything more. But now your body, because your hormones have changed, is making you go, I wonder if he's with anyone else. I wonder what else is. And you're like, I'm just genuinely
interested. Really, no, you're not. You're wondering if there's competition. You're starting to fall for him because your body's doing that, So I wouldn't be in this. I don't think you should be in this relationship. I'm just going to say that because you can't handle it, and most women can't. There's so much research out there to show that men can have sex as
a standalone event much more easily than women can. And it's not your fault, but adopting a male model of anything, including male sexuality, is not feminine freedom. I just want to say that. Okay, I think I have time for one more. Dear doctor Wendy. I have a first date tomorrow night, and I already told him I can't stay out late, so he suggested we go out earlier, around four pm, for drinks and food and to watch the sunset. But I'm worried he thinks this date is going
to last like six hours? Is that normal? I love those questions. Is it normal? There's no such thing as normal. How long do first dates usually last? Is it rude for me to just cap it after we're done eating and go home? And how do I do that? Wow? Okay, it's so simple. You said you want an early night because you got to get up early. And so what he did is he made the date earlier to accommodate you, so you could go home early and go to
bed. So why this idea? Like, what if he expects me now to stay out to eleven with him because I couldn't stay out till one in the morning before. No, it's so that you can cap it off and leave. And how do you do that? You say, thank you so much for the dinner. The sunset is beautiful. I hope we can do this again another time, and you leave. I don't understand the question here. I mean you think he's in charge and he controls everything and in your
life. No, you just told him one little boundary you had. Hey, by the way, i'm going to meet you, I can't see a leg an early morning. So he went, okay, we'll meet earlier. He's trying to show you. He's a nice guy and he's paying attention to what your needs are. That's what that is. Okay, one more, I think I have time for one more real quick Dear Doctor Wendy. Oh he's a funny one. How would you feel if your partner tells you that
she's going to come over out of obligation. I don't want to feel like an obligation. Then you know what you need to say. I don't want to feel like an obligation. Don't bother coming over and don't hang out with her. I mean, you're not supposed to go see your loved one because you feel you have to. You should do it because you want to, because it feels good to be in their company. Oh breaks my heart. I would hate to hear that I'll come over. I guess I'm obligated to
you know what, Go away, go find a new person. That's what I say. You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty. You have Dr Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. Can we talk about boundaries? Boundaries? You hear people talk about boundaries all the time, but I don't think everybody understands exactly what a boundary is. It's not trying to manipulate another person. It's not trying to get them to behave in a certain way. It is just a tidy little
fence around you that protects you. Now, if you have a fence around yourself and someone comes and tries to push down the fence, hopefully your fence is strong enough that it will stay sturdy and erect even though they try to push down your boundaries. So having good boundaries means keeping good fences. It doesn't mean telling somebody, you know what, I have a boundary now that I am just not going to a allow you to talk to me that way. So what does that mean? What are you gonna do? Right?
Here's the thing, No boundary is real, No boundary is official. No boundary will stick unless it's been tested, and once it gets tested, you must have a logical consequence. So instead of saying I'm going to put a boundary up and I don't want you to talk to me that way ever again, you can say I don't know why I do this girl voice. When I do it, it must have been how I talked when I was in
my twenties. Instead, you might say something like I find when we have conflict, your tone becomes very aggressive, and that's difficult for me and it's not constructive for us. So I want you to know when I hear a voice that feels very uncomfortable, I'm going to leave the room and close the door and we'll take it up another time when we're both feeling better and more fresh. That's a boundary. But here's the thing then, and when they do that thing, you can't go. But I told you I have a
boundary. I don't want you to raise your voice. No no, no, no no. You don't say anything, You leave the room, you close the door. So part of setting boundaries with people is understanding what the consequence has to be. A logical consequence is not punishment, it's not doing something to them. It's removing yourself from a situation in order to protect yourself. That's a boundary. Now, there can be boundaries in all different kinds of areas in our life. Of course, there are sexual boundaries. I
won't do that, and I don't care if you keep pushing me. It's not going to happen, right, Or there could be financial boundaries no, I am not lending you money. Right. It's very important that family members learn to have financial boundaries with each other because sometimes there are family systems where the message is, well, it's family. You have to do that for family, because that's what family do. Oh yeah, you're all going to go down together. Is that what it is? The ship's going to sink
and you're all going to go down together. No, you can have very clear boundaries with family members, with lovers. With children, children thrive and grow with boundaries. Boundaries aren't punishment. Boundaries are here are the rules. A simple example, a three year old goes into the cookie jar before dinner and you say to them, no, you have to learn to wait. You don't get mad. You don't have to get mad with boundaries. That's the other thing. You just say, oh no, that's the way it
is. It's my policy. Okay, you don't even get mad. So you say no, I'm sorry, we don't have cookies before dinner. And then they're going to test the boundary to see if your words are real, and they're going to try again, and so then you're going to say, well, you know what, I think it'll be easier for you if I put the cookies up in a high cupboard so that you're not tempted by knowing that you could reach them. Or you might say something like I have an
idea. Since it's so hard for you to wait for the cookie, and you're worried maybe that you're not going to get the cookie after dinner, why don't you choose a cookie now, and we'll put it right on your place setting by your fork, and so you'll see it there and you'll be able to have it after dinner. Right, you come up with these creative things. You don't yell, you don't say you're an idiot? Why do you want it before? You don't have to. You just make change your reaction
to the situation. Okay, So, in our most intimate relationships, there are five boundaries that you should never ever cross. The biggest one, and this is the biggest one for me too, is respecting someone's personal space. Here's what I say. Don't open my mail, don't ever go through my
purse, and definitely don't open my wallet. Okay, those are three clear boundaries, no matter if I live with you, whether I've lived with you twenty years, whether whatever re respect So, for instance, my daughter lives in Paris and she still gets mail the odd time. A new ATM card came the other day. I take a picture of the outside of the envelopes and I send it to her and I say, do you want me to open any of these? Right? And then she says yes, which ones
throw away? That it's junk mail whatever? Then the ones I open, I take a picture and send it to her and say, what do you want. That's how you do it, right. You don't just go rifling through people's stuff. They feel violated, okay, personal space and maybe a cupboard, a room, a bathroom. Don't walk in on somebody when they're having a shower. Maybe they just want that little bit of privacy, all right. Also ignoring the need for consent. I mentioned sexual consent earlier,
but there's all kinds of consent. Making social plans without checking in, spending financial stuff without checking in, just check in. You don't have a friend who's been single forever and I said why are you single? And she goes, I just don't want to confer with somebody for every decision I have to make. Well, guess what, that's what relationships are about. You confer because you're now one, all right. Then there's the old violating emotional boundaries.
When you dismiss somebody's feelings or say you don't feel that way or don't feel that way, telling them how they should feel, that's crossing an emotional boundary. Or if you try to guilt somebody into doing something, manipulating them through guilt, that's crossing an emotional boundary. I mentioned financial boundaries before. You guys have to come to a money agreement, okay, and you got to stick to it. But the biggest one, number five me meaning is
betraying trust. If they told you a secret, hold that secret. If you have a deal to not have sex with anybody else or not talk to anybody else in DMS on social media, then don't do it. Don't betray their trust, and then you'll have a healthy, happy relationship. You're listening to doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty. You know, I have been saying to producer Kayla forever and ever, we need to get
a divorce on here, because you know, they hear some dirt. I mean, they hear some really interesting stuff more than a therapist, I think sometimes because it's it's gloves off, you know, and so I got one Sarah in Delligator. She's a holistic family law and divorce attorney and a yoga instructor. So to calm down the couples when they come in and say, let's just do a little down dog before were not the couples, but my client's definitely. So before we get into your book, because who better to
write a book on how to find good love than a divorce attorney. I'll just say it. The book is called Live, Laugh, Find True Love, A step by step Guide Defining a meaningful Relationship by Sarah and Delligator. Welcome Sarah, thank you. So before we get into the book. Why you know, people go to law school and they can do criminal law, they can do contract law, they can do fancy entertainment law, and you went, no, I want to deal with fighting couples. Where did that
come from? Well, it was actually an accident. I did plan to go into criminal defense. But when I got out of law school and I passed the bar, I applied for jobs at the district attorney and public defunder's offices, and they both had hiring freezes at the time. My mom happens to be a family law attorney. I needed a job. She knew someone who was looking for an associate. I had no experience with family law other than studying for community property on the bar exam. Yeah, never took a
community property class in law school. So I just kind of fell into it. And why did you love it? You fell into it, but you fell in love with it, obviously. I absolutely hated it. Actually, for the first five years I worked for a firm, I found it soul
crushing, hated it. Went off on my own and then when I realized that I could kind of create my own niche and bridge my two worlds, essentially my world as a yoga instructor and my world as a family law attorney, and I coined the term holistic divorce and family law to describe my style of practice, where I could kind of take care of my clients going through the process, handhold guide them to a better place. Then it became very
fulfilling and meaningful to me. You know, years and years ago. If you don't know my story, A lot of my listeners know that I'm a survivor of domestic violence. And at one point I went to see a family law attorney because I was trying to get him out of my house and I didn't know how, and he literally said to me, you know, we family lawyers don't usually deal with this. We just deal with like division of assets. And I actually don't know how you get him to move out.
And then it gave me a bill. So that's as far as I got with that. Oh my goodness. He didn't tell me about restraining orders. He didn't explain about how to get a move out order from a judge. Not all the things I learned many many years later that I do so much of the family law. Family attorneys do so much to message violence litigation unfortunately. So before we get into divorce in general, let's talk about love. Yes, so you see couples again. The book is called Live Laugh,
Find True Love. You see couples at their worst. Do you ever ask them about their love story and how they fell in love? Do you wonder how they got to this place? I don't really ask them. They volunteer. I feel like when people come in for their consultation and when I'm working with them, they just the floodgates open and they divulge so much about their
personal stories. And so that's how I've kind of learned where things went wrong by just seeing these patterns over and over and over again, and there really are something to do. So I wrote a book years ago called the Boyfriend Test, How do we evaluate his potential before you lose your heart? And I was reading your book and I was like, Oh, it's the same, all the same advice. Right, It's so much easier to leave earth
early than it is to become attached. And then and so we have this problem in our culture called romantic love, or we are falling in love with strangers that have not been preapproved by the tribe. And this is problematic, right, So you kind of have a step by step guide, and in fact, you call the five fail factors. These are the five things, and I'd like to go through them bit by bit by bit y of what you think people need to do at the beginning of relationships so they can avoid
divorce later. And the first one is fundamental values. What do you mean by that? Fundamental values are one's core principles, something that so defines someone and what he or she values that it sort of guides what he or she does in life, what they're looking for in life. Things like that and so like. For example, religion is a fundamental value. A political belief
might be a fundamental value. Think, ye, there are people that write on their dating apps will not date a Trumpster, or it will not date a lib Dard. You see it. They write it right on their things. They know what they can live with. Mine happens to be gender roles. Is that for the longest time, I had my own patriarchy swimming in my head, and I used to think men do this and women do that. And then I realized how hard life was as a single mother for all
those years. And then one of my fundamental values became equal division of household domestic responsibilities. And no guy is going to sit there ever and tell me to do the dishes anymore my life. Actually, my fiance happens to love laundry and dishes, so I'm really lucky keep him and I have a love to cook. So we're all good there. Good, okay, So fund
you have to make sure you have fundamental values. And one of the other smart things you say in your book, which I also mentioned to the boyfriend test, is how do you do that you ask you interview ladies, you are I'm talking to you ladies men too, But ladies you have the eggs. You're accepting applications. You are interviewing for the role of best friend and lover and maybe even father. Right, So you've got to ask the questions.
How do you ask questions about somebody's fundamental values when your heart is pounding in, your lower parts are throbbing, and you're looking into somebody's eyes that you met on bumble Well, So in the book, I actually there's an exercise that is geared toward that, and what I ask people do is first define their fundamental values, and then once they've defined their fundamental values, go through with each fundamental value that you've identified and list a series of questions.
You're not going to bring this list with you into your date, but bring us spreadsheet and check off those things. But you you now, by writing them down, have them in the back of your mind, and so you can kind of summon them and pepper them into the conversation as you're going through your date, and you could dass them in flirty ways. It can be fun. It should be It should be fun. You're on a date. Yeah, you're listening to doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty.
My guest is divorce attorney Sarah Intlligator and intelligator. I just love your name. You pronounce every single vowel in it. It's just a beautiful name. You sound so intelligent, I hope so, and like an alligator intelligator. Yeah. Her book is called Live, Laugh, Find True Love. A step by step guide to finding a meaningful relationship from a divorce attorney.
So one of the things I found really interesting is that you say that in the early stages of dating, people do tell you who they are, but so many people put blinders on. So when you see divorce and couples, do you want to say sometimes like didn't you know this at the beginning? A lot of them actually tell me that they did see those signs and they ignored them. Ah, it's so common. I mean, one of the questions that I get asked so many times is how can I trust myself to
date again? If I made the wrong decision in the past, and I try to remind people you didn't make the wrong decision. You knew it was the wrong decision. You can absolutely trust yourself because you just didn't listen to yourself. If you listen to yourself next time, You're not gonna make the
wrong decision. Now, a therapist might say, you know, it's all well and good to say just make better choices, But I'm a big believer in for many people, they can't make those choices because they haven't dealt with a lot of stuff from their past, and they do need to have a wingman, that is a therapist, a licensed therapist, the next time they go out there, so that when those early red flag shows up, they can move away from it, right, Because you know, love is not
about finding happiness, it's not about finding the pleasure. It's about finding the familiar. Right, so we will constantly recreate some of our relationships from our early childhood if we do not sort this out now, Sarah, you wrote the book to keep people out of your office. Yes? Are you getting tired of all the business? Yes, I'm just I'm a total masochist.
I'm trying to destroy my business. Now. I have been through my own divorce, and I've watched countless people go through theirs, and I've watched how financially and emotionally costly it can be, and I've personally experienced it, and so to me. If I can prevent others from going through it, and their children in particular from going through it, then you know what I'm okay
with losing business. And we should say that Sarah may have gone through her own divorce, but she's remarried, has four year old and another one who she brought to the studio in uterow. It's about ready to come out. This one right, could come by the end of the show. Yes, very exciting. Congratulations to you. You do so also do a chapter on narcissists. Now, there is so much debate about what percentage of men are narcissists, as some of the numbers I see say as high as seven percent.
Men who are narcissists don't go to therapy. They also don't sign up for scientific studies, so it's very difficult to generalize these kinds of numbers. Some of the low numbers are one percent, one in one hundred. But you can bet your bottom dollar that they're on dating apps and they're not in healthy relationships, and they're dating and they're trying to find the next victim in some way. So what do you say to women or or even men dating
female narcissists? How do they spot them early on and move along. It's a great question. I don't think there's any fool proof way to do it. I think that there is kind of You have to be very observant, you have to be very aware. You have to make sure that you don't have those blinders on. Like you were saying earlier on that you're really being honest with yourself. Somebody who is extremely charming, body who puts you up
on a pedestal, but not to flatter you, to flatter themselves. Somebody who needs to suck all the energy out of the room and be the center of attention at a party. Everyone grab very charismatic right at the beginning, super charismatic. You're only going to see the best of the best until you're not giving this person the attention, and that's when they start acting out. So it is difficult to identify in the beginning because in the beginning you're giving
each other all the attention. What I always say is if it's too good to be true, it's probably not true, right. And if it's too much too soon, right, pace it and see what happens. The narcissist doesn't have patience. Usually they want to get in and control in any way they possibly can. So you can definitely just slow things down and spend some time. I'm also a huge believer in make sure every date as before you fall deeply in love, meets your people, your friends, your family,
somebody, because you need another set of eyes on this. You can't be making these decisions loan in a vacuum. Sarah. I used to host a show for Investigation Discovery called Happily Never After, and it was about brides and grooms who murdered each other. Oh fun. We had to work really hard to find the brides. Usually it was the grooms and one hundred percent of the time they eloped, there wasn't family around. It wasn't a big way.
It was like this whirlwind thing, sign this insurance policy, life assurance policy and let's go to Vegas and that How people fall for that is obviously amazing. But we desire to be loved, Yes, yes, we all want to be loved, but we need to be loved in a healthy way, and we need to love in a healthy way. Exactly. Okay, So before we wrap too, the most salient two points from your book that you want every single person to know, know your worth and expect the best
for yourself based on knowing your worth and your sense of self worth. At the end of the day, isn't it about loving yourself first and having that kind of self confidence to go No, I'm not going to put up with this behavior and knowing that that person, that man, or that woman where the red flags are waving, They're not the last partner on the planet. Now there's another one a thumb swipe away. So just wait till you get there, take your time. Yeah, don't let the fear control you.
Exactly. So I want to close by saying, you practice holistic family law, holistic divorce. What are the features of a holistic divorce. I am looking at the whole person and the whole situation, not just billable hours. Obviously, I have to do my job. I have my ethical obligations to my clients. But I am trying to get this human being and honor the
human experience and the litigation process. I'm trying to get this human being to a better point when they leave my office than they were in when they got there in the first place. So, whether that's connecting them with therapists or guiding them using the tools and yoga teacher toolbag, whatever it may be. Just making sure that the whole person is taken care of in the process. It sounds wonderful. I think we need more of you in the industry.
Thank you. The book is called Live, Laugh, Find True Love, a step by step guide to finding a meaningful relationship. The author is Sarah Intelligator, just like it sounds intelligence with an alligator. Yeah, if you're going through a divorce, maybe she's the one to call. Thank you, Sarah for being here. Thank you for having me, and it is always my pleasure to be with you on Sunday evenings. You can always follow me on my social media at doctor Wendy Walsh or come on into my Patreon zoom
room on Wednesday nights. That's patreon dot com slash doctor Wendy Walsh. But I'm always here for you. On KFI, you've been listening to the Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI Am six forty. We Live Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You've been listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh. You can always hear us live on KFI AM six forty from seven to nine pm on Sunday and anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio app,