This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to KFI AM six forty, the Doctor Wendy wallsh Show on demand on the iHeartRadio app AFI AM six Sporty. You have doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy
Waalsh Show. Before I start going to social media to answer questions, I just want to say that I was just reading that Governor Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania, who is on the short list to be Kamala Harris's running mate, is getting criticized for how poorly he handled a sexual harassment complaint not against him, against a longtime top aid. Apparently this aid harassed a woman, made graphic sexual overtones,
then criticized her job performance. When she refused him. She ended up quitting and getting almost three hundred thousand dollars after the lawyers got involved. And I guess he was supposed to handle it differently. I don't know. Should he have to take the fall for something another dude did at his office? I don't know, but he is on the shortlist to be a Calmalist running mate. All right, I am going to your social media, my social media to answer your questions. Your DMS if you'd like to
send me one. The handle is at d R Wendy Walsh at doctor Wendy Walsh and a reminder. I'm not a therapist. I'm a psychology professor, but I'm obsessed with the science of love. I've written three books on relationships, did a dissertation on attachment theory, and well I learned from a lot of life experience at a lot of wisdom. All right, here we go, let me open this up. Hey, doctor Wendy says this listener. I've been dating a new guy for two months. We've gone on six dates, but
they were all in the evening. Is this a sign that he's only after one thing? Hmm? So because they're in the evening. Most people complain that they don't don't get taken out on a proper date in the evening. Sounds like this guy is doing a proper courtship. Now, six dates all evening. You didn't tell me whether you gave him the one you think he's after. I don't
know so. And also have you suggested, you know, let's go see a matinee or let's go have a picnic in the bark during the day or let's go to the farmer's market, or let's walk at the beach in the day. Whatever. Have you suggested that and he's turned you down, because that would be a telling piece of information. He could be just going slowly. He could be just formal. But on the other hand, I don't know what he's
doing at the end of those dates. And if he's being you know, very sexual with you and you're rebuffing him, I don't know. Maybe maybe, but most guys don't hang in there for six full dates that he's paying for if all he's wanting is sex, because it's so easy to get free sex. Right now, just saying so, I think he's just being formal, that's my guess, but try asking him. All right, moving on, Hey, doctor Wendy, I've
been in a situation ship for two years. If you guys don't know what a situationship is, it is a relationship where you're having sex. Is supposed to be no strings attached, it does It's undefined, right, Nobody has had the conversation of what are we And the fact that you've I've just read the first sentence. I have been in a situationship for two years. Two years in an
undefined relationship sharing. This is a female sharing your eggs, your bloodstream, risking your heart for two years, and then she puts in brackets. I was hoping for change, as if change is something that just comes down from the heavens and all of a sudden, somebody anoints you as girlfriend. No, do you know who gets to be a girlfriend? The one who asks for it, the one who learns how to negotiate commitment. And two years into it, you've lost
a lot of your negotiating power. That's the problem. So she can take though. He gave me the bare minimum for too long. So I started dating someone else. Wait, you were giving him sexual exclusivity in a situationship with no name. Okay, so you started dating someone else. Now he's actually putting in an effort. Is this a trick or should I give him all my attention again? You need to stop playing games. You need to just talk to him about what are we do You want to
be exclusive? If not, I'm out. I've done my two years time. That's all you need to do. Talk about these things. Don't write me, I mean do write me. I'm happy to weigh in, but you need to talk to him about it. Wow, is this just a trick or should I give him my attention again? A trick? He's realizing he's got competition, so he's trying a little harder. That's all that is. So the question is he gonna try hard enough to say yes when you say we
need to be exclusive, you gotta have the conversation. Be brave, somebody be brave. O. Hey, moving along, Hey, doctor Wendy. I matched with a woman on a dating site and we had a really good conversation on the phone. We haven't met in person, but she's told me she already deleted her app. How do I tell her to slow down without her thinking I'm not interested? You say slow down? You literally say what You're off the app? Like I'm the one for you? You say that we haven't even met.
And also, dude, that's a huge red flag. I mean, that's somebody with an attachment style, like, Oh, I can't believe you have one phone conversation with somebody. You go, I'm getting off the app. You sound perfect. Oh, dear, I would worry. I don't think i'd want to meet her in person, maybe even Ghoster. No, don't ghost her.
You had a conversation. You're going to tell her, maybe text her move on, Dear doctor, Wendy, my boyfriend isn't as motivated when it comes to career goals and passion projects. This is a turn enough for me. I don't think it's something he will change. Can I grow to not be bothered by this? Or are we not compatible? We
have been together for four years, all right? You are speaking with the voice of somebody who has an attachment to somebody but is not looking towards having the same kind of future and future goals.
You know.
I have a friend who's a marriage and family therapist, and she once told me. I said, what is the most common conflict that couples come into your practice with? And she said, it doesn't matter what it is, it never changes. They learn to manage it, but it never gets resolved. There's always this one thing, and I teach them skills to manage it. So if she were talking, she might say, yeah, you can learn skills to not
be so bothered by it. But if it's about career goals, if it's about income, and you've been together four years, you didn't say how old you are, so I don't really know, Like if you're planning on having a family because your financial needs are going to change, and then this will become a really big problem for you. So again, it's not your job to drag that horse to water, lay out the trough of water. If he doesn't drink, then you've got to make a decision to move on
or not. Can't change him. You can change your reaction to him, but you can't change him, right, that's the important thing. And I want you to think about how important this career goal thing is now compared to how it's going to be in the future, and what would happen if you sounds like you're very ambitious and if you start getting a bunch of promotions and start making
more money, you will outgrow him so fast. So you got to talk to him about it, not try to change him and get him to be more ambitious, but talk about how you can live with this together or what's going to happen in the future. All right, when we come back, I will continue to answer your social media questions. Send me a DM on Instagram. It is at doctor Wendy Walsh. At Dr Wendy Walsh, you are listening to the Dr Wendy Walsh show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty.
Hef I Am six forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. I'm answering your questions. Reminder, I'm a psychology professor, not a therapist. But I've got opinions and I've got life experience, and I'm happy to weigh in on your relationships. Okay, go into Instagram if you want to send me a DM. It's at Dr Wendy Walsh at doctor Wendy Walsh. All right, Dear Doctor Wendy. Every time my boyfriend has a night out with the boys, Instagram friends go up. Give me
his Instagram friends. He always gains about twenty followers, follows them back. He doesn't give out his socials to strangers when he's out with me. Is this a red flag? This is a flaming light on fire red flag. I don't know if you know this, but people use Instagram as a dating app. Now. They get into each other's dms. Even Simone Biles found her husband by sending him a DM on Instagram. So he goes out with the boys, and all of a sudden, he's following twenty more people.
I guess the question is are they women? Right? So, you know, like everything else, I would always suggest talking about it first, but then you're gonna hear a bunch of blah blah blah. What do you mean? Why are you looking at my Instagram? And who cares? People? Just ask me? Ah right, But it's telling you something. It's telling you that he's out there, he's social, he's meeting people, he's building up his friend bank in case he wants
to leave. That's what I'm saying, all right, Dear doctor Wendy, My ex and I were so perfect for each other. Oh, looking back with rose colored glasses. Uh Oh. Then she says I got pregnant and he wasn't ready for a child. I got an abortion although I didn't want one. Oh, and now I can't get past blaming him. I still love him, but I feel such a deep loss, and I blame him. Can we still make it work? All right?
I have a whole bunch of questions here. First of all, you refer to this person as your ex, my ex and I were so perfect for each other. So that's past tense, and now you're suddenly saying I still love him, but i'm mad at him. Can we still make it work? First of all, no one should make you do something with your body that you don't want to do, so I'm so sorry that you made that choice based on his pressure. I think what you are thinking is, well,
I'll get an abortion because he's not ready yet. But once I do that and he sees that I really love him and I'll do anything he says, then he'll turn around and love me, and then we can have our love baby together and he'll be ready. No, if he said he's not ready for a kid, maybe he's also not ready for you. And I don't understand. Are you even talking to him right now? I will say this,
you need to go see a licensed therapist. These feelings, these tender, painful feelings, need an ally to help you work through them, because yeah, you're feeling a feeling of deep loss and you're angry with him, but yet at the same time, you still love him. Your therapist can help you make sense of those feelings so that you can work through them. And if you're asking me, can we still make it work? I guess my question is are you even talking or is this fantasy in your head?
I don't know. Oh, good luck, baby girl. Alrighty uh hey, doctor Wendy says this person. I'm a sucker for love, and I always get wrapped up in the honeymoon phase and then I hurt my own feelings. How can I slow my heart down? Well, first of all, it's not your heart, it's your head. And you have a model for love that has a little bit of anxiety attached to it, like an anxious attachment style. So you want
to become immeshed with somebody really fast. There are some people that just want to become completely fused at the beginning, because if they can do that, then in their mind, they won't be abandoned, right, They can stick together like glue.
So the answer, of course, is to work on your feelings of anxiety before you meet people, to understand that there is a gentle pace and if you find yourself you know like, some people will say, well, I will just take it slower, I will call them less often, I will make myself not to see them so often. All those behavior is great, but if it doesn't change the feelings underneath it. In other words, if you're still dreaming about them, thinking about them, counting the minutes between
the calls, you're still in your place of anxiety. So it's about learning, usually with a therapist. That's how I work through my anxious attachment style. There's a way to learn to know that it's okay to wait, that you're a good person, you're a lovable person, and the right person in time will show up at the right time, and that you can have the correct pace, and then you won't hurt your own feelings. As you say, all right, dear doctor Wendy, My girlfriend claims to love me, but
her actions tell me she doesn't like me. It's hard to explain, but she ruins my special moments and puts me down at every chance she gets. So that's insecurity on her side. By the way, when somebody puts the other person down, it's because they're insecure. Then you say, I love her, but I told her leave me. If she doesn't like me as a person, she won't admit to not liking me. Is it possible for someone to want to stay in a relationship with someone they don't like?
If so, why do people stay in a relationship? You know, I don't think you're asking me about her, You're asking me about yourself because you don't really like her. How can you like somebody who puts you down every chance she gets? And really the question is why are you staying? Right? And again, like I said at the beginning of the show, a lot of this goes back to what happened in early childhood and your model for love that you can peel away all those layers working with a clinical therapist.
But honestly, it's not about finding happiness. Love is about finding the familiar. And until we change our model for love, we won't find a happy relationship. I don't know why you'd stay with somebody who puts you down all the time. Alrighty, if you want to send me a DM for the future or anytime you can, the handle everywhere is at
doctor Wendy Walsh when we come back. In my Patreon group, one of the followers, one of the members of our group suggested that we all watch this really interesting documentary on YouTube called Empty Love. I was fascinated with this. You should watch it Empty Love when we come back. I've got the producer director of Empty Love. You are listening to The Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio App.
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty.
Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show and KFI AM six forty. We are live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. My guest is someone I uh well, I am very proud to say. I know. I like to think when I find someone who's a little younger than me, who seems to be saying the same message that I've been saying for three decades, that I have passed the baton. Of course, she didn't know who I was, or the fact that I've set it for three decades. I'd like
to welcome Lauren Southern. She's a Canadian journalist, author, and documentary filmmaker, best known for film's Farmlands, Borderless, and most recently, Crossfire. But the one I want to talk about tonight is called Empty Love, thought provoking exploration of modern romance in the digital age. Welcome Lauren Southern. Good to have you here.
Thank you so much for having me.
So let's start with the why of all the topics you've delved into, and there's quite a range of them. Why did you decide to make a documentary about our love lives? And why did you call it empty Love?
Well, all the topics that I pick tend to be things I see going on around me in the real world. You know, there's a lot of cultural or nonsense going on in the Internet, but I think a lot of it is actually motivated by people's relationships.
When you've got.
A lot of individuals who are in their love life, who have a lot of pain from rejection, divorce, it manifests in this explosion of content that we're seeing from the red tailed manosphere to extremist feminist content. I'm sure you've seen shows like Fresh and Fit or the Whatever podcasts, and you're seeing these very absurd caricatures of men and women being portrayed online. All women are gold digging whorees. I'm sure you've seen those takes on TikTok and Twitter.
All men are rapists or you know, abusers, And I think this is a manifestation of a collective difficulty that everyone is having in making relationships work. And I'm sure we'll get.
Into the many reasons why that is.
Yeah, So let's talk about some of the reasons. I will start with my knowledge of evolutionary psychology. So up until about you know, one hundred and fifty years ago, maybe one hundred years ago, at least in our anthropological past, we never laid eyes on more than about you know, one hundred and two hundred humans in our entire lifespan. And anybody we had sex with was probably somebody we knew. They were a third cousin, they were a friendly tribe
member from next door. Everybody was vetted by the tribe, and today we have potential new mates, thousands of them, one thumb swipe away. We live in urban centers where we lay eyes on thousands of people weekly, and as a result, I feel like our brains, our ancient brains, are highly confused. What are some of the issues that you're seeing.
Yeah, I think there.
I mean, we spoke a lot in the film about this paralysis of choice that has occurred as a result of apps like Tinder, hinge, all these new dating mechanisms that have appeared, and also the comparison we see online all the time, people posting their happy relationships on Instagram, I'm on a boat today with my partner. I've got it, even richer.
Partner that's got me on a private check.
And everyone is under the impression that that is like right in front of them, just within their reach if they can find the right person, and so it's all about trading up to the next best thing. I was just reading some data on NBC News saying that around sixty percent of Tinder users are already in a relationship, and this is something I've seen in my own life as well.
Most of the people, because.
I'm coming on thirty here, most of my friends are married, you know, dating at least, And most of the people I know who are downloading Tinder are doing it to check if their partners are on it. They're swiping through to find if they can see an obscured photo of their husband or something, if they're in a fight, or they're living separately because they're in therapy, and a lot of times they're finding them there. And this can be scary for people who are.
Single using these apps. I know I have.
My assistant is twenty two years old, and we talk about this. She just uninstalled the apps herself because she's like, man, it's just rough out there. And when I see my friend's husbands or ex husbands that are using the app posting single, not posting that they have kids, or putting I want to have kids one day, I think that would be a terrifying prospect to be spending time, you know, weeks going out with this person to discover they have
a wife and three kids. Maybe even never discover that. Right, But this is how people are being taught to approach relationships today. It's all about what can I gain from it, and not about the loyalty aspect or like you were saying, it's not with people who have been heavily vetted by their community. If you're in a small town, there's not much option, and if you're in a city, everyone's a little anonymous in a city.
Right, Yes, it's the anonymity that's an issue. And also you mentioned paradox of choice. This is a very real psychological phenomenon. When the human brain is presented with too much choice, it actually has trouble making a choice. We like shortcuts to choice, we like fewer choices, and so it has trouble making a choice. And when it does make a choice, as you alluded to, we don't value that choice as much. We actually think, well, maybe there was a bigger, better deal that we missed, and so
having too much choice. In fact, I often suggest that when people do use the dating apps, that they never match with more than two people at once and just choose one or the other and let it ride for a bit and see what's what, instead of having their
box filled with messages from ten or twenty people. So you mentioned paradox of choice, you mentioned the digital age, but underlying this I'm hearing something else, especially when you're talking about spouse is going on to see if their spouse is on there, or to see if their spouse rates like the other choices out there. Are we missing basic trust? Are we missing a basic sense of security that normally would come from a relationship.
Oh?
Absolutely.
And you know what's strange as well, is at the very beginning of the movie I published as Anti Love, there's a gentleman I'm interviewing and he states, I wear a wedding ring everywhere I go. When I go of bars, I put on a wedding ring because women like married men better. And I thought that was such a bizarre thing. People are almost whenever you see someone who is over the age of thirty. The first question that everyone around me asks.
Is why are they still single?
There is an inherent distrust of people who are even single, who don't even have anyone.
It's why are they still single? What did they do to get that position?
And in a way, when someone has already taken already married, people assume they've already been vetted by someone. They've already been vetted that probably must be a good individual to be with.
I call it the woman approved man. She's been the man who's been approved by a woman already. Hey, when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more about the problem, and I also want to get into talking about solutions, given that we do live in this culture and we are mostly wired to reproduce. So let's talk about the ways we can find solid, healthy relationships. When we come back. My guest is documentarian Lauren Southern. You are listening to The Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six forty.
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty.
Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI AM six forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. My guest Lauren Southern, a Canadian journalist, author and documentary filmmaker. You've got to see her documentary. It is called Empty Love. And before we go too far, Lauren, it's available on YouTube free for anybody.
Oh absolutely, you can find it on Tenet Media.
Oh great, so it is there. It's available. Go to your computer. Just google the words empty love and you will find it. So we were talking about some of the problems in finding mate or having trusting relationships have to do with digital Also this idea that if we could just find the perfect mate, or the richest mate, or the most beautiful mate. I have always said that if you have good relationship skills, you will be attractive to more people and you will be comfortable finding a mate.
It's not about you, know. I believe love is not about luck. It's about skills, and anyone can learn those skills. Where do you think we fell off the wagon in this idea that there is one mate that can help us feel secure and we're on this endless search for perfection. What happened?
There is a fascinating phenomenon going on right now where it's almost a rage against the Disney movies that we watched when we were younger. We see it in the new Barbie movie that came out.
We see it in the.
Remakes of the Archie comics on Netflix. And they're remaking these romance and love films to be dark and have this dark underbelly of there's cheating, there's misogyny, there's.
This, there's that.
And I think a lot of young people will put under the impression, certainly young women, that love is supposed to be this, you find the prince and you ride off into the sunset. But they never show in these movies what happens after the prince and the princess ride off into the sunset.
So when these people find the.
Prince charming and get married and things get complicated and hard, they feel very bitter. Why isn't this my perfect romance? And then it comes to well, I've got to find something else. I've got to find someone else. And I think we're seeing this rage against the traditional relationship because it was sold to young people in this package of perfection without complexity by all of the media that they grew up on.
And this was a new.
Era of media, right, this is the first time in human history that you had all these color films and cartoons that kids grew up on from the day they were born, watching TV shows, And now, of course it's going to be even worse with gen Z.
You look at this with the type of if you've.
Ever seen Euphoria, there's a scene in it where this girl is I believe she's losing her virginity and the guy just starts strangling her and he's confused. She's confused, and he's like, I thought this was normal because he grew up on important. He thought that was what sex was.
Supposed to look like.
And you're seeing this more and more, increasing violence and sex, increasing just what people are seeing on the screen, and none of it is really translating to real life, and it's causing a lot of horror, discomfort, loneliness, and brokenness in this generation.
Isn't it ironic with the fact that there are so many mates available, they're easily accessible, literally a quick thumb swipe and a text and you can meet somebody, and yet we're experiencing an epidemic of loneliness. Talk about that for a bit.
Yeah, absolutely, Well, when you can't get to that next level of a relationship where you have that trust, you have that you've been through things together, you've forgiven one another, you've worked through it. Of course you'll be lonely. That's what a family is, right. Families are never perfect.
You have fights, you have big hurdles you have to get through.
And forgive people for But because once again that Didny style projection that these young people have of relationships, you jump to the next one, you jump to the next one, and you never get to that deeper level.
And I mean there's a lot of.
Young people that aren't even getting into relationships at all whatsoever. They're using the Internet or movies or.
Dating, you know, AI as a replacement for these things.
And you know, I live in a world where a lot of my friends are online content creators.
They have lots of followers.
And that's an even more.
Interesting situation because.
I find a lot of men that I know who have a ton of options in the dating world. It can be even more difficult for them, even if they are good at relationships, because oh, a conflict has occurred in my relationship, there's stress. Instead of working through that stress, I have a thousand girls in my DMS that I can go hit up right now and jump to the person exactly what I deal with stress in the relationship.
Well, you know somebody who will be nice to me, who's a stranger. You know. I've always said that the road to intimacy is paved with ruptures followed by repairs, and it is during that repair process that we really grow closer, get to understand each other's tender spots, get to say I'm sorry, and grow closer. And indeed, there's research on long term happy people people who say they
have happy, secure relationships and lo and behold. Turns out they have more conflict than other relationships who report that they're more unhappy. But they're not having the big, knockdown, drag themout blowouts. They're having the tiny border skirmishes all day long that are just boundary negotiations. So they get good at conflict, and that's a healthy relationship. People who have unhealthy relationships never actually learn how to have healthy conflict.
They're just having big fights and breaking up that sort of thing. So what do you think the solution is? We only have a few minutes left, so let's solve all the problems of our love lives in two minutes.
Oh, jeez, my goodness.
Well, I mean button to delete the Internet. I absolutely would, I'd restart.
You know, this is where I work my job.
But I think it's done more damage than good for the modern soul.
Maybe it's saved us in some ways of you know, being.
Able to connect us to people overseas, being able to make us watch all these movies, see all this art. But when it comes to the human soul, like you said, we were not.
Developed this way.
We weren't developed to be in contact with so many individuals, to have so many people.
At our fingertips.
So I think we're going to see, definitely from gen Z at some point, a revolt against technology as their lives feel more and more empty as they struggle to find meeting. I think it's actually going to be the guys you meet or the girls you meet that don't have an Instagram account, that don't use the dating apps, that don't have a Facebook profile, that are going to be really high on the you know, attractiveness traits. Oh, you're not out there looking for ten thousand different people.
I love that about you.
I think that's amazing.
I know that's not as for everyone though, So this is really going to have to be left up to smarter people to me because I'm out here trying to figure it out like everyone else.
Well, I've been trying to do it for thirty years, and I continue to share the research with anyone who will listen. And Lauren, thank you for exposing the problem, especially to a younger generation where this is a real crisis for them. And I think your documentary Empty Love is really really well done. Thank you for being with me on KFI and that brings the Doctor, That brings a Doctor Wendy Wall Show to a close. I'm here
every Sunday from seven to nine pm Pacific time. You can also follow me on social media while we're at it at Doctor Wendy Walsh and join my Patreon on Wednesday nights. We have an active group of listeners who talk about this on a regular basis, but I'm always here for you on Sunday nights. You've been listening to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You've been listening to
Doctor Wendy Walsh. You can always hear us live on KFI AM six forty from seven to nine pm on Sunday and anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio app.