Judges Judy & Jerry Sheindlin

realize that you're speaking to a Supreme Court judge? And she looked at me and she said, put on your robe and take out the garbage. The other surprise was their house. Well, let's just say it was not what we expected. When we got there. We had to double check the address. Wow, it was a palace and she designed it patio. Do you do a lot of parties out here? We do? And you've also done two of weddings here, right, we've done two weddings here. We did

three weddings here. Two asked it. Judy brought out a big tray of snacks, quick to point out that she didn't make them herself, and then we settled down to talk. How old were you when you first saw him up with him? I was thirty two, thirty two. What was it that you glommed onto right away? He had shiny shoes. I saw him in a bar and I looked at him and he had a face. I had just finished successfully trying a murder case as a defense attorney. Wow.

And it was in the newspaper, or so. Mike Pearl from the New York Post, who was the crime reporter, was interviewing me and she came walking into the bar seeing me surrounded by these lawyers, one of whom was her boss, and came right up to me in the middle of the interview, put her finger in my face and said, and who is this in the middle of the interview? Why did you do that? I thought he

was adorable. She wanted to make an impression what she did, and I said, lady, please get your finger out of my face on the middle of an interview, and she did, and we went out for dinner that night, and we saw each other every single night thereafter. So that's how to get to you, huh, I'm telling put your finger on my face. I'm easy. I actually had to drag him to the altar. Yeah I did. I did. He really had no intention of getting married. He had no

intention of divorcing. He and his former wife were separated for about three or four years, but he had no one tension of divorcing was a very good thing. He could come out, He could get laid. He could say I can't get serious because I'm married. I said, after a year, I want to see the divorce in the paper, or don't call me anymore. No. Well, one of the things you said was I said to her, why do we need a paper from the government in order for

us to be together. It's not necessary. Let's live together. She said, okay, you go ahead and ask my father if we could live together. I said, I'm not going to do that. So she took out her calendar and she said pick a date. So how did two judges not become very judgmental to each other? And who takes and Alsie was a great at pleading your case. I

am terrific at pleading my case. However, I'm constantly being overruled forgell But seriously, as a bad comedian would say, yeah, we judge each other all the time, and I plead

my case and he pleads his case. That's what we do, that's what you really Of course, I use my logic to explain why I don't want to live in Connecticut anymore, or why I want to go to sicilianification when you have to talk your husband, your mate into doing it, into thinking that his idea, and also when you're having an argument, each of you has to say, well, why this wasn't fair to this one or that one. I

just think it's fascinating. We tend to do the right thing, and as soon as one of us gets to the point where we say, you know that's right, then we're together. And if we can't get to that point, then we argue, and we argue until somebody gives up. And it's usually me. That's true, because that's a reason. The truth is, I'm

a very linear thinker. Things illogical if something doesn't make sense, whether it's an argument between us or in life, if something is inconsistent with my history from seeing people, from being a lawyer and a judge for fifty years. If something doesn't make sense to me, it's usually not true, or it's usually not right or it's not going to end up well. Jerry is a linear thinker, but at the end of that thought process is what will make him happy. Yeah, and I have to linear think through Jerry.

That may make you happy, but it's not the right thing to do, and sometimes we don't get there, so then we just have a blowout. Are you ever wrong? Rarely? I remember once once you was twelve years old, she said she's wrong? Am I ever wrong? Oh? I'm sure that's really We have a big family and there so there's lots to negotiate it so time coordination things. That's not something that I don't know what Phil is good at, but Jerry is really not good at that. Would that

be fairtakeing? I think? So? Now tell me Jerry. Yes, Judy has told us what she's you know, her part that she's good at making the arrangements and stuff. So what's your job? My job is to make suggestions to her and then she takes the suggestions and makes arrangements and she does the appointments. So as he's saying that lightheartedly, but my job is usually to go along with what

she says and she accepts your suggestions. No, that's an idea that's a good idea, that's a glimmer of an idea, that's an her Yeah, but it works, that's the thing. It works. It works when you have a blow up. Which one is more likely to be the peacemaker. That has fluctuated over the years. I would say the first twenties or more years, I was the peacemaker, because that's just the way it was. I think Jerry will acknowledge he was a difficult person for a while, and what

was it was difficulty more unreasonable. I wouldn't listen necessarily to what she was saying when I would assist that what I was saying was correct and right and it was the thing to do. And as years went on, it just came to me that she has the better ideas most often, and I accepted and I don't struggle with it. And that became more as the marriage went on. As the marriage went on, that became more frequent, and so we get along better. I think Jerry brought more

baggage to the marriage than I did. His family. His parents were more dysfunctional than mine. What happened to them was when they were born in Europe, if they didn't behave they would beat the children. Oh that's the way they did it. Yeah, it's not a surprise at all. So when they came to this country, they thought the way to bring up children is to abuse them, to hurt them, to hit them, not understanding that that carries a terrible, terrible result with the child. It's hard to

get over. I carried around a lot of garbage from the time that I was a kid, like what couldn't you do? Well? It was hard to get close to another person without thinking that perhaps they're gonna hurt you, because that's the way you grew up. So you know, you had to continually test to see if the person really loved you. Would you love me if I said this to you? Would you love me if I did this to you? So? What kind of a father does that make you? Did you hit your children? Never ever

laid a hand on them. I learned it from a negative point of view. A negative upbringing actually gave me a positive sense of how to bring up children. When I was seventeen, I joined the Navy. Oh I don't blame during the war and spent two years in the Navy. Then when I came out, my head was better. You know, they say you're going to the Navy as a boy and you come out as a man. Well, in my case, that happen to be true. And did you go to

law school afterwards? Went to college afterward? Then you have a short relatively twelvey, a short term marriage which Jerry had, which produced three children, three terrific kids. And I think he had a lot of guilt with regard to leaving his wife and children that was long before he met me. All of that was a lot of baggage to come to a new relationship with. And let me put it to you this way, honestly, because you want honesty in your chapter, correct, you would like I am a girl

who always needs a project. With Jerry, I knew I was getting a project. I knew it wasn't going to be an easy So the first twenty years I was really trying to make up for all of this. You had a miserable childhood, You feel guilty about leaving your kids. There was lots of turmoil that he probably couldn't pinpoint in his brain, but he knew it was not making him feel content. And it was my job, I felt

during that time to make it better. Well, then what happened was that my father died and my father was my champion ahead one of those right, I know you did. And when you lose that, you say, all right, somebody has to take care of me. I've been taking care of you for twenty years. Now you take care of me. This is what I need. And if you can't do that, we just can't be together. And he was totally on the custom. It's too amorphic. You can't say take care of me? What does that mean? I mean, how do

you want me to take care of you? Do you want me to carry you from place to place? Do you want me to buy you things? Do you want me to feed you? Do you want me to keep you warm? What you have to do is tell me, use your words, tell me what you want me to do to take care of you. Right? And she said, just take care of me. I said, I don't know how to do that. And honestly, it wasn't that he was being stubborn. I don't think he was being stubborn. I think that honestly, he didn't think that I would

do it. No, I didn't. He didn't think that I would do it. She said to me, if you can't new with this, I'm going to divorce you, and I said, oh yeah, I dare you. And the next day I got divorce papers. Right, I mean, it's seriously, he really didn't think I would do it. I had a friend. I said, just serving with the papers. We'll have more after a quick break. We're back with Judge Judy and

Jerry Shinedlin. When we left off, they were remembering a tough time in nineteen ninety when Yep, Judy actually followed through with her threat they got divorced. I missed her her presence the first week that we was oparated, because we didn't see each other for the first time in years. Every single day I was in the Supreme Court, Judy was in the Family Court. We'd always be together after court, always, and this was a strange experience for me not seeing Judy.

Were you in the same building, same building? Were in the same building. So there came a point where I called her on the phone. I said, what are you doing? You want to go to dinner? And she would say yes, which surprised me. But we went to dinner. Meanwhile, the papers were all signed. Did you need to get to

the point to give her what she wanted? What happened was we'd gradually, during this period of one year, grew closer together because I missed her terribly and I couldn't stand the fact that somebody fixed her up with the guy that was driving me crazy. So I would call

her up and say, did he kiss you? He said no, and she and she said it didn't even work well because we went to this restaurant and the waiter came over and he said, I'll have the roast beef and the potatoes and the French fries, and I'd like a big glass of cabernet. And she said to the waiter, that's what he wants, what he's going to have. And so this guy never saw her again. I was pleased to hear that story because I knew eventually she had to come back to me. That's a scream. And did

you miss him too? I missed it. I missed it. I want to get back to when you got back together. That's the most interesting thing, because you know one divorce, I said, Okay, I was married to him. Now we even see each other all the time, we'll have to get married for again. Interestingly enough, we're walking downtown Manhattan. I picked her up from work, and I said, you know this is silly. I'm uncomfortable being with you all the time and not being married to you. I said,

let's get married again. She said, well, I mean, how are we going to do that? I said, my ex law partner is a Supreme Court judge. He's right up the street. We can go right into the clerk's office and get a license. And of course, as soon as they saw us, they accommodated us with both judges. Got the license, immediately called up my law partner and said, are you busy? Said no, I said, well, we're coming up to get married again. I called my older son,

who had a law practice in law of Manhattan. He was my best man. She called her girlfriend of forty years that was her maid of honor. So we went up to my partner's chambers and he performed the following ceremony. To me, he said, you take this woman to be your wolf, a wedded wife forever and good times and bad, and sickness and health, and to each I said yes, looked at her and said you take this man to be your husband. She said yes, in good times or bad.

And she looked at him and said, in good times or forget it. Herbie said, this is a real tear jerk. Oh that's funny. She cracks a joke about it. But I think it's romantic that they got remarried. They also came back to each other already knowing what makes the other one tick. Do you know the triggers that each other has? Like you know the thing that will set them up? And absolutely so you know what they are? So yes, So what do you do? Do you like?

Avoid them? I avoid them? He sometimes? He sometimes still he still tests. That's interesting. No, but really you try to change, but you can't change. There's something that just damaged. That's the way you put it, just damaged and you can't repair it. Being damaged causing the testing of my devotion to him. And it used to happen very often, and it happens less frequently. Yes, we get old, you know you asked about I think that we change in what our needs are. For instance, you you were working

in Chicago. You got married in nineteen eighty, right, yes, but your show was still in Chicago in nineteen eighty. Yes, your show was in Chicago for another four years. Right? Do my homework too? To the last kid got to high school. That was our deal. Okay, but that's different, and I'm sure that that was difficult, and I'm sure that there were accommodations that had to be made, and yeah, scrabbled.

And that's why I'm so interested in accommodation, because I think a marriage cannot be successful and be strong if one person says it has to be this and it has to be that. When we decided to get married, and I had said, I'm not living in Winnetka, and he said, I can't live in LA. So we made New York home because it was closer to Chicago, and he said, I just have got to get my boys to high school. I got it. I didn't want to be taken out of my freshman year or software year

in high school. So where did you live? I moved from LA to New York. But the point is that we made a life that neither of us ever lived here. Now we have a New York apartment. None of this was in Chicago or LA. We just made a new life. And I really appreciate that about how we handled it. He was willing to move his show, but not willing to hurt his children, and I was not willing to

hurt his children. So we made a path for ourselves, and the kids came to and we had four bedrooms, and then they grew up, and then they come occasionally and they come. Now, okay to exactly, but if people don't accommodate each other, if you don't give up certain things, or round off certain things, or just downright change something, you two people aren't alike. They're not the same. I am so not like him and he is so not like me. It's true, we really are different. But the

important thing is we figured out that that's okay. Yeah, we thought a lot at first, but it just takes time. Every young couple goes through it. Young people aren't getting married anymore. Nobody's getting married when they're twenty two or twenty four or twenty six or twenty eight. They start thinking about it when they're thirty. They hardly get out of your house before they're thirty. That's just this generation healthier,

healthier than our generation. Yeah. I mean, if if a daughter wasn't married by at times he was twenty four. In the Catholic world, you know your mother went to church. Yes, many of those marriages did not survive. Women. I think more than men, when they enter into a relationship, think that whatever behavior is annoying to them, they will be able to modify and change in the other person. In

the other person. And if you marry somebody thinking that you're going to change them, which I did, Mia Coppa, don't try to teach a pig to sing. It doesn't work and it annoys the pig. But what about the fact that he did change? He didn't. He didn't change. He learned to use a calendar better, he learned to write down Octope but twenty first Judy's birthday. What is difficult about living with you? Nothing, that's the difficult. That's the difficulty because you must have had to change something

in you to be able to accommodate another person. Everybody does. I did. I used to sweat the small stuff. I had to give it up. During that year that we weren't together, I did a little growing myself. It was a realization that we were better as a couple than we were separately. You have to have that feeling that is intangible. My father said to me that he saw my mother a dance at the Jewish Center for the first time when she was eighteen and he was with

his best friend. From the first minute he looked at her, he saw her and he said, I gotta have it. I saw him and I said, I have to have that like forever. Whatever it is, I'm going to make this work. And he evidently the same thing. You evidently the same thing Chicago, New York. I'm going to accommodate it because there were a lot of girls in Chicago, but you saw this one, this girl, and you really had to have this girl. So whatever it had to be in your your life, that's what you did that.

You can't identify it because the truth of the matter is, no matter how you slice it, and no matter how many words you use, it all is irrelevant unless when you touch your mate, there's a special feeling. When you speak to her, there's a special feeling. When you hugger, there's a special feeling. I think the foundation of a good marriage ones that last is a deep love and a devotion to your mate. If you look at your mate and you love her as we do, then it

all works, no matter little irritations. They fall into place, but you can't replace the touch, the kiss, making love, and the main thing is that she has a tremendous ability to make me laugh. And there you have it. What makes the marriage of Judge Judy and Jerry shinin last This has been so much and you are the nicest man that ever lived. Well, that's the problem with this interview. That is the problem with this Somebody said

something nice to me. She can't until next time. I'm filled down a he and I'm Marlow Thomas how't told us how well? I'm telling you. He's different. He's selfish, Jerry, but he's adorable. He is he is adorable. Suffer you have to come to my rescue double Day. There's a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lilly. Michael Bahari is associate producer.

Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You by Sellwagon, Simfinette, Marlo and I are executive producers, along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin and special thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Fain, John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Kluger. If you like our show, please remember to share, rate and review Thanks for listening