John McEnroe & Patty Smyth

personalities are as big as their careers. We capped it across town to their big, family friendly apartment on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, and while we were setting up the mics, they were already going at it. Got to stop wiggling because it's driving me crazy. That sound you're making on the chair. He can't barely moving. Now that this is him barely moving. Yeah, this is exactly

I'm used to standing up and running. It was fun to see them banter and Patty sure is a match for him, And that was on the fall shelf did ask, but he was a little cocky back in the day, because is it possible, might have said no, that would say no to fall get at it. Lucky for us this time they said yes, So we settled into their comfy living room, just the four of us and their mischievous cat, Bobby. I kicked off our conversation by asking

them how they kept up such a busy pace. I would say it was true for John, he likes to stay busy. But for good fifteen to twenty years, I was working, you know, taking care of our six kids. That was my main job, and John taking care of John too because I traveled with him, because he didn't like to be alone for long stretches of time. So sometimes I brought the sometimes I didn't, and I put out a Greatest Hits record. I wrote songs, I mean, I did some and then I actually, I guess for

the last eight that's true. I guess for the eight or nine years, I've been touring more like in the summers. But I was mainly, you know, the stability at home for the kids. She was never with me during my main career. She's been with me after I stopped playing out.

I would have had a heart attack. There's a transitional period where you're sort of not sure about what's going to happen and what you're going to do with the rest of your life, and so it was very fortunate that I was able to find Patty and she sort of let me do my thing in essence, which was basically, as it turned out, to sort of veer back towards tennis.

You know, at first, I was having trouble coming to grips with what I was going to do in tennis, because at the end of your career, or at least me, I was certain, you don't want to have any part of it. And so he was like thirty five and I was thirty seven, and he was playing these you know, exhibitions and stuff. I'm getting a lot of money for them. But I wasn't really preparing that well for him, preparing

at all. He wasn't taking it seriously. But I said to me, if you're going to play practice, and when he did that, he beat everybody After that, then he was number one on the seniors tours, taking it seriously, taking pride in what you're doing. You're going to do it at the top of Yeah. I mean, if he told me I'd be a commentator and I was going to play seniors tennis, that would be sort of like, shoot me now. But also you were kind of just had that attitude like he hated, the prayers he hated.

I mean, it was all like the establishment, and that wasn't going to be him. I mean, that was part of your thing. But low and behold, he's like the greatest commentator that ever came down the pike, you know. And also right at the end of my career was the end of my first marriage, as it turned out, So that next year was all sort of trying to time figure out what the hell was going on and how this had happened, and that feeling of failure you have about a marriage and wanting the kids to be

okay because they're very young when this happened. So then I mean you're taking it day by day at that stage. So I actually changed, well it's a lot of change. So that was exactly why the last thing that I wanted was to get remarried. You know, the toughest thing about marriage is getting the divorce is getting out of it. And it took me a couple of years and it's just sort of horrific in a way, and then it feels like, Okay, I just want to go out with

young girls that don't want anything. Basically, Well that's what I thought. Did that for a couple of years. How did you meet? We met the first time at a friend's Christmas party on Christmas Day. It was a setup, but they were smart enough not to tell me about the setup, or I wouldn't have come right because I really wasn't ready to be too embarrassed and it would be embarrassing. But he walked in. I always like to tell us where He walked in with like a kid

in each arm and one wrapped around his leg. So it was pretty funny. I mean, you could barely walk for the weight of your kids, six to five and two? Come on, how are you? How can you resist that? So? Really was that your moom? You like to have babies in your arms? Whenever we walked into a room, he'd say, give me her and he'd want to. I mean, it was John's a little bit shy, So I think having a baby made you feel like it's a wonderful thing

to have little kids in your arms. I mean, there's probably not It's almost nothing they can top that feeling. So I'm not going to say that it was was not my move or it was my I mean, it just seemed like they were probably all nervous. You and the three kids. It seems like a natural thing to do, hopefully.

I mean when you're just there and you're not I mean you're by just with them, right, Yeah, you're with a maybe a fair amount of people you may not know, including the person who I was sort of am my, I guess set up to me, and she sort of was avoiding me. Well. No, I sat and talked to him for a while, and then I liked him, and then I got nervous, and then I avoided him, and

did you like her right away too? I thought that we should, you know, think seriously about going out, which which is why I said, Hey, I'm going to be here for the week. We should get together. I'm we'll fight about this. Don't even let us. Don't make us tell the story. Do not make us out because he's rewritten it's and it's all wrong. Maybe I don't remember it. Okay, I'm not doing anything for New Year's Eve. I'm not

doing anything for New Year's Eve. I'm saying, hey, between the lars, you know, we both grew up thirteen fifteen minutes away from each other and Queens. Yeah, you go around the world and you wind up with a guy from Queens, which is what I think is you know, awesome. But I think the thing that happened for us, I mean I would speak for John. Somehow he saw something about us together and I felt very safe and really really,

like I said, this weird familiar thing. I was in La where it's like I always said, like La is like the Vietcong. You know, you never know, you couldn't identify the enemy. I liked you. Who doesn't like you? You know, like because everybody's full of shit and flirting. And then when I met John, that was someone I knew. He was a guy from New York. I knew him. He was very forthbright. All he talked about was his divorce and how crushed he was by it, and so

that was all really endearing and great. And then when we went on that on that one date, and then he came over the second night and we were together from from then on after that second night on our second date, and I just was sort of still didn't believe in love, in monogamy, in marriage, but I had some kind of faith in him, and so I thought, well, I'm going to go along with him. And I'm like, I call it stepping into the river of John. I stepped into the river and I let him sweep me

along with him until I caught up. I realized this opportunity to get this second chance that I wasn't sure I was going to be able to get, so I was. I'm proud of myself that I was able to make that choice, because at that time, when you're still just sort of just out of a divorce, it doesn't seem like the sensible thing to do necessarily to get back into a very serious relationship. But I didn't want to

do it either. But then there was John saying, you know, like trying to get me to move back to New York right away, and he just knew to me. I was like, I got a brilliant idea. We gotta have a kid so that the other kids realize how committed we are and how much we love. Choice had that brilliant idea. It was always like, you know, that was his cure for everything. Have a kid right now, if I knock you up, you'll get healthier, get happier or whatever.

That was your go to move. I think when you loved somebody or like them, you wanted them to have your baby, well that would almost seems bigger than getting married. No, it's true. So he was like, I want to have a kid, but I don't want to get married. So I was like, I didn't really want to get married. I was thirty seven. I didn't think I was going to get pregnant right away, but I did. How long did it take you to come to New York? Well,

we came, I went. We saw each other all the time, we came back and forth, and it was the next school year, nine months. Yeah, so I was already pregnant. But she moved in my place in Malibu. It was you know she I mean I was spending time with her in Tepega then maybe early on, and you were making me come to Malibu. So I was always leaving Ruby and so I was like, how about I moved down to the house in Malibu. But you know, he

was like he's come a long way. He was like a little bit, you know, wanted it the way he wanted it. But I mean it's a pretty good It's not like the worst scenario. I'm you know, putting her into well down to Malibu could be worse, right, So, yeah, but I loved my house. I loved where I lived. I mean, it's not like I wanted to give all that up. I gave everything away. I mean it wasn't like no sacrifice for me. But it had a nice house in Malibu. Right, didn't say for my kid, But

that was more trust Right. I just love talking to a couple. Yeah, I really did, really, just a little bit, because makes love my husband more, because I realized we're not as crazy as I exactly. John is just as scrappy as he was on the tennis court. But Patty holds her own with him, she sure does. Plus she has a magic superpower. Music must be the fact that Patty is a musician a singer, so but must have been part of the attraction. I mean, it's a great combination.

A beautiful woman and a great singer. Then I didn't play any music or singing. She wasn't. I remember we early on. I was playing some music with my friends. I mean, admittedly compared to what she's used to badly, but I thought like, hey, come on up in jail, and she goes, I don't jam, And I'm like, you're saying, you know, why don't you jam? And it seemed like, at least in my mind, it seemed like she had lost a love of you know, what she was doing

for a variety of reasons. This is a tough business. And Grenge came in and there was just you know whatever, you know the way that's illustrated and in music and etc. And so it seemed like she needed a little bit of, you know, someone like myself who has a lot of energy that could get her back to maybe loving what she was doing more. And yeah, I needed somebody like you, I'm saying, to impregnate me and just keep me home taking care of the kids, because that's what you know.

There was no like, you know, pushing me towards music. You were touring. I suggested that we we because I was actually playing more than she was. And that's which was when I was like getting pissed. And then I'm like, you know what, you need to come come home, like you can't like play a tennis tournament and then do a gig, like do your gigs around here. So she said, if anyone is going to play music, it's me. But I wouldn't it be amazing if we were, you know,

I was in her band basically. So Patty said, yeah, we should play mixed doubles at Wimbledon. So I go, you don't play tennis, and she goes exactly, So that shut that down. We'll have more after a quick break. We're back to our conversation with John McEnroe and Patty Smythe and one thing we hadn't quite touched on yet was John's famous temper. It probably took me a minute to really hold my own. I probably let him push me around a little bit. Did you say, when you're made,

don't even I'm not allowed to any where. Patty won't let me use a phrase. They don't give a damn about how I play now. They just want me to yell. You can't be serious. But there's a lot of owner thing, as you said, can't you just resort to? Very ironically the thing that I said once, my dad, God rest his soul, said, listen, you don't need to do this, you know, go off on the umpires. You know you're

better than them. Just play. But he'd say it like, you don't need to do this, you're better than them. But then he go, but if you do do it, because he's he was a lawyer and he was my manager at the time, he goes, don't curse, And who else said that? To you me like Patty would say it later because I I lost control. It's like being a say what you want, but don't drop. So that was me not cursing and said I'm going fuck you, you stupid, you know, which is what I wanted to say.

I grew up in a loud, loud dinner table. Let's just say that my parents were together for three years, two younger brothers. It was living in Queen's living in New York. I just seemed like everywhere you turned it was very loud. So loud seemed normal. You know. When I went to London the first time in nineteen seventy seven, which is when I made the semis of Wimbledon, I was shocked at how polite they were and how quiet everything was, and you have to act as I'm like,

what is with these people? I thought they were weird. I've always had this theory about you because I'm married to a man who seems to have the same trait. Phil does not take criticism well ever since we were married. No matter what I would say to him, he would say he's had a criticism. That really just drove me mad. He had a very critical mother. She didn't bother me that much. But it did bother me that she criticized

him so much. The first time she walked into our house, either beautiful ornate mirror that had all these animal faces on it, she walked in and she said, oh, so Halloween house. You know. She just couldn't help Irish Catholic, Yeah, Irish, he's Irish. I'd say, I'm tired. She said, we're all tired, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was wondering would you have a critical mother or father? I would say that my parents were expected big things. I mean they expected

me to be very good at school. I guess they said that I was a perfectionist without them having to push him to be one. I do remember being very competitive and anxious, kind of driven to remember that, driven and pushed, you know, not nearly as bad as other tennis parents, but I was definitely pushed. It seemed like in retrospect they were a perfectionist. Though his parents they weren't critical because his father worked all day, went to law school at night, and came home. Was he second

or third in his class? He was second? Why my mom would say, why wouldn't you first? I mean that makes you a perfectionist. Yeah, a lot of this stuff makes you who you are, so that when you become a husband and become a partner to somebody, I mean they bickered all the time, they were like, but they loved each other, right, I mean, obviously the key to success in any marriage is you have to compromise and you have to trust each other and also hopefully have

a lot of sex. Is it that would be the thrick? Yeah, that's it. When did you first get that smart? Probably not early enough in the first marriage, let's put it that way. Um, they should have anything to do with the person and the person obviously. I mean it's just your three your formula, and no matter who it was, it's like, my god, that's not what I said. But that's okay. But you know, I sort of if you have to ask so then so, so, how do you fight?

That's screaming and yelling sometimes? How I you know, as I look at you too, I see you guys has been raising your voice. But somehow none of your loud arguments are lethal. I don't think you take any crap I'm talking about. I found it somewhat amusing to me that I'd be the one overall, which we said earlier that I would be more like Jesus calmed down. Yeah, but we're not lethal to each other. I think there's

a line. I do believe there are things you can't say, Like there have been sometimes maybe where we've said things, you know, where we didn't mean it, and maybe we crossed a line. Well, then go ahead and you know, get a group or whatever you know, or like you know, you said that, Yeah, I probably said that to him. Yeah, yeah, that's sort of the wibblton of all that's I mean, we'll know. There's way worse than that. I mean, I think have you over said the D word divorce? I

don't under said that word. I mean there's been times where no, we haven't said that. The thing that he has said to me our whole life together is don't give up on me. I'm a work in progress. Don't give up on me. And then I started saying to him, don't give up on me. You know, I'm a work in progress too, because you know, I grew up with only women. I never thought I would be married. I had no idea how to be a couple, and it's

been a learning curve for me. I was so independent, and he was, you know, wanted us to be like this, and I was like, you know, it took me a long time to do that. Someone said a second marriage is a triumph of hope over experience. And the biggest thing that Patty did for me basically was allowed me to be me. He needs a best friend and a consigliari and a wife and a lover and all those things. That's what makes him thrive and be a better person.

John has the best moral compass. And what's great about people assuming that he's this like hothead is that they continually underestimate how smart he is. Oh, what a nice thing to say. Yeah, is there anything about yourself, either one of you that you consciously changed to accommodate the other one. For years, it was like the idea of me taking a girl's trip or traveling or going away on my own was like out of the question. I mean, John just could. He didn't want me to do it.

He would get really angry at me if I did it, because he traveled and he thought I should be with him and I should go away when he went away, But then my kids would be alone. And so finally, over the years now it's dawned on him that my happiness, you know, these things are end of my happiness. Yeah, it does matter. It's not like like, you know, he really did think that I should just be happy with him.

All my happiness should be with him, And a lot of my happiness is with him, but I get happiness from other things like my girlfriends and going on traveling to places that he wouldn't want to go to, and also music. What did you change your accommodate John virtually giving up her career, that's what she accommodated. I mean,

that's the biggest thing by far. Now she was the bit disillusion but I don't think she envisioned that it would lead to twenty years, you know, twenty years later where you're still like, Okay, I've gone through batches of song did this? To get over that hump requires an incredible commitment that you know, because you have to not only do the record, but you got to set up how it's going to be. I mean, there's so many

things to lose your place in line. You lose your place in line, well, that's in essence what you are, and then it's you. It becomes more and more of an uphill battle. And the weird thing is is being a woman and being married to John. People assume that I don't want to work. They would never say that to a guy. No, never, no, say I was like some heiress. They would never ever say why are you still playing tennis? Or why are you a commentator? I know you have to go want to ask one did

we clear up? Like when you have a fight, who makes it okay? Do you both do that? Well, we both do that, but you're better at it. I think I'm a little better at sort of trying to diffuse it at this point. I think ultimately I've had to take the lead in that that's amazing. Well, some of it may be that. Yeah, so I guess that's a good quality change that I've made. Because I'm pretty stubborn and sort of get and me too, it's hard for me to say I'm sorry, so and believe that even

you know that it doesn't matter if you're right. I think to myself, I'm eighty percent right. It's still like it so wide. I mean, ultimately, it's a hollow victory. So that part was took me a long time to feel. Like Jesus, if you look at it in what I did for a living, you always try to put yourself in a position to get the odds in your favor as much that's where you want to be. So it seemed like, you know, I'd sort of feel like I cornered into It's like, you know, there it is. I mean,

you know, it's it's almost all your fault. But it didn't matter ultimately because it was still weird fighting and I felt bad and she felt bad. It was like so I think over time I was able to sort of put that aside a little bit and realize that's not the point. Maybe that is one of the most important ingredients in a good marriage is like do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

Like you can just be like okay, whatever, you know, like I'm wrong And even if you feel like you're right, because a lot of times you feel like you're right but you're not. Is there something you'd like to pass on that you've learned. Don't try to change someone, I mean, that would be the thing. I mean, you gotta do. Marry potential, like marry the person, like not who he's going to be. Women are like notorious for that, Like, oh you know he's got the potential, but like potential

is not good enough. But you can soften some of you, can't. I mean, I think you so my soft edges and vice versa. Yeah, soften is one thing, changes another. I'm pretty sure that neither John McEnroe or Patty Smite needs any serious changes at this point. Since we talked with him, Patty released her latest album. It's called It's About Time. It's about their marriage, and just like the two of them, it's in perfect rhythm until next time. I'm Marlo Thomas

and I'm Phil Donahue. I think you can change them to the type of person the day he or she needs to. You know, you think that they double day. There's a production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created by US and produced by Sarah Lily. Michael Bahari is a ship producer musical adaptations of It Had to Be You by Selwagon, Symfinette, Marlo and I are executive producers,

along with Mia Lobell and Letal Molad from Pushkin. Special thanks to Jacob Weisberg, Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Faine, John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Kluger. If you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and review. Thanks for listening.