This podcast is for general information only and should not be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their healthcare professionals for specific medical advice. Well.
Hello, I'm Amanda Kella.
I'm Anita McGregor, and welcome to Double A Chattery. You're welcome, welcome. You know what we're going to talk about today, Amanda, We're going to talk about women. Well, I'm up for it.
I'm up for it in a general sense.
Or we've got to name all the women in the world. What's you think.
Let once upon a time there was you know what I thought is I would love to go and start with some feedback on the podcast that we did about that amazing book that you brought in several episodes ago about How to Be a Woman.
How to Be a Woman.
It was written in nineteen sixty I think, yes, and it was painted a very different picture of the role of women.
And it was you know, some of the comments I really loved. There was Aaron Whitcomb who talked about listening to the podcast and reflecting that her own mom had worked outside the home in the sixties and that later on she found out that other of her mates had kind of said, oh, no, this is this Your mom
was a role model to me. And I was thinking about working in the sixties, about how much what the pressures would have been, what the judgment, the judgment, the lack of support, like they probably didn't have many daycares even, you know, and thinking maybe for nurses. I don't know, but it was really interesting to go to hear the responses of people who had listen to this podcast and kind of really connected with how much things have changed.
And luckily, well have they In some parts they had and other parts not. One from Susan here said that when her mum went to get a Commonwealth Bank card, hermum applied for the bank card, she filled out all the forms, did all of that herself, and the bank said, well, we'll be contacting your husband because he had to he was given the card, and then he could give her the card even though she was earning her own money.
You know. And those things they just they're the things that you remember that just kind of, you know, stab at you a little bit.
So that's one generation ago. And as we said, the sixties, that's the cusp of women's liberation, and we think that everything was changing, but it took so long.
There was a little message from Jackie as well, saying that when she was in Kindia in nineteen seventy, so again not that long ago, the teacher was handing out musical instruments and she wanted to play the drum, but she was told no, no, only boys play drums.
Hollow Karen Carpenter.
I know, like it's just it's it is amazed.
Because that was more of an aggressive, physical, probably kind of musical instrument, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't small and pretty enough for.
A woman's womb might have moved around if she had engaged.
In a woming behavior.
But all of this, Amanda just again made me think about how, you know, how some things have really changed and again how some things really haven't. And it started I. I was listening to this manto for Pain. He's an American playwright and he makes alternative endings for children's books, and he was talking about this. Are you familiar with a children's book called The Giving Tree?
I've heard of it, but I don't remember much about it.
Well, it's it's basically about the relationship between a young boy as he grows up and this giving tree that at first the child just wants some shade, a place to stay, and then he wants apples, and then he wants, you know, a to build a boat. Can you give me some of your you know, lumber so I can build a boat. And then eventually this giving tree is left as a stump, Amanda, And the story ends with this boys and old man sitting on the stump, and the tree is happy.
Oh, because he's been used up. Yeah, and and and so it's going to go the other way. No, it's it's basically supposed to be a story about a mother's love for a child that she just gives everything until there's nothing left of her. And there's no really clear message that the boy's ever happy with his boat and his house and everything else.
And what makes you think the tree is the mother? How do you know that text?
Well, I think that that this is well, I mean, this is tofer pains, you know, thought about it and other people's you know, interpretation of this giving tree story. And I love that Taufer does the alternative ending, which is the tree who said healthy boundaries And it made me think about there's a Canadian author and he wrote this book that I love, and it's called I Love You Forever, and it's about this mother who has a
baby and she sings this lullaby. Well, I'm going to sing it, but we can cut this out if we.
Really count it. I'm going to have to hear it in the right.
You're gonna have to hear it right here, right now.
I'm ready.
But so the mother goes and sings to her young baby, I love you forever. I like you for always. As long as I'm living, my baby, you'll be and it goes on shock because you hit a note. I did hit a note a note, And it goes on and on about as this this child grows up and eventually this woman, she's an older woman, she breaks into his house so that she can rock him and rock him and sing this song. And it is a grown man, a grown man.
And that it.
Ends where the man rocks his mother and sings his song back to her, and it's this sweet song, but but toafer pain right rightfully says he's renamed this this my one of my favorite I love you forever as I love you forever, and I'll call before I come over.
But so great, like that little written thing where she's still breastfeeding on his wedding day.
Something about it.
It's a little, a little, and it really made me think about this, this whole idea about how women's work is often the sense of not having boundaries and people pleasing. We often think about it. You know, I want to be liked, I want to be you know, it really is about us. It's really not about the people that we are trying to impress.
It's interesting, isn't it that you know, you look at people think that nurses, why should they be paid well?
Because they do it's a calling.
Because women are caring by nature and they should be doing that stuff for free.
Yeah, well what women wouldn't want to go and change somebody as stranger's bed pounds? Really and it's the The interesting part is that when we people please is that there's a lot of evidence says that we don't actually create emotional connection with others. That when we connect that it does like when we do stuff for others, it doesn't create a strong connection, it doesn't. It becomes this one way often a one way relationship where we give, they take.
I'm a huge people pleaser and I hate being a people pleaser, and I'm trying so hard not to be yeah, and so you think you're doing it for all the right reasons because people go, geeh, weren't they nice?
Yes, In fact, you're not forming a connection at all.
No, No, and in fact that there are a lot of downsides to people pleasing into continuing continually saying yes.
And there was this interview with this woman named Vanessa Bonds, who is a researcher out of Carnal, and she looks at women and their ability to say no. And what I loved about this because one of my favorite sentences has been like, noh is a complete sentence, and she goes, no, Actually she doesn't believe that, and I loved her logic about this is that when we say no, we often feel as though we have to give an explanation no because I just I don't have time, or no I
can't you know, I can we're kidnapped. Yeah, absolutely, And but yes is actually a complete sentence. Yes, I will like I'll do that, and so you know what she pays attention to is that idea about how women often say yes in situations where they feel pressured to say yes, often in work situations, and they feel like they that it makes them feel light, which it often may, but
again it creates this one one way relationship. And what I really liked is that this researcher was looking at who says yes in a meeting to like, who's going to take the minutes, who's going to go and get our lunch, who's going to go and organize a Christmas dinner, who's going to you know, the Christmas party? Who's going to do this? And often in this group of.
People who are all of equal standings, who.
Are all of equal standing, that there will be this like kind of like sidelong glances or you know table you know, eyes going down to the table because nobody wants to put up their hand and and in most cases it's women who eventually put up their hands. If it's a group of men, they kind of you know, grumble about it, and then probably somebody puts up their hand and then leaves the room and tries to ask
some woman to do it. And when it's you know, they put somebody in charge of the room that and there's that who's going to do this, you know respect, you know this this thankless task. Often the manager will point at a woman and ask her to do.
It and what's the eat. So this isn't secretarial stuff that someone's in a particular role. This is where you're all equal partners.
They call this non promotable work, and they actually one of the statistics that I thought I found really really interesting is that women in general at a job do two hundred hours more of non promotable work when they are just as a general part of the work. So I might do all these things that you know, I put my hand up for. I think that people are going to like me. I think it's going to people are going to look, you know, well at what I'm doing.
But here is my male counterpart who is actually engaging in the promotable work stuff. So they're the ones that are doing projects that have their name at the top of the you know, of the report. They're you know, it's not like and supported by you know, Anita, you know, it's it's all this stuff that they are actually doing. They have two hundred extra hours a year on average to go and do that stuff.
How interesting because just thinking of the things like organizing a birthday cake, taking a collection for someone who's leaving, arranging at farewell lunch.
Have you ever seen a man do that in an office ever.
Ever, I never ever have where if a guy a boss says I'm going to arrange a lunch, he'll point to a female, one of our producers or something it might be, and they'll do it. Yeah, we don't have office assistance, we don't have that stuff. We're all of equal standing, and yet a female will be called to do it.
And they talk about the the things that get in the way of saying no. And you know, part of this in general for all of us is this idea that you know, I think we've talked about this before that you know, you kind of think, oh, you know, can you please come and give an hour's talk somewhere Amanda, And you go, sure, it's an hour of my time. But it's not ever an hour of your time, is it. It's you know, all the stuff that you have to do to go and get ready for it.
It loves in my die for a few weeks.
Yeah, and then there's you have to figure out how to get there. You have to probably have several conversations with people who want to guide about what the message is that they want.
You know, I don't like public speaking, so it's not a natural fit.
I'd be anxious about it.
Yeah, So what they actually say is that if you're saying yes to an hour, you're probably saying yes to four hours. And actually, if you started putting that into your little dots in your diary, you'd be saying that you'd be probably saying no. The other piece is that the pressure. Often it's easy to say yes and you do it immediately, and it's harder to say no. So the idea can be the immediacy of the issue can lead you to say yes when you should be saying
no to situations so to me example. So so it could be Amna again, I want you to do this talk and you go, yeah, sure, and instead of saying, can you give me a day to think about it? Because it's rarely it's like, you know, can you give a you know, can you give a limb right now? It's it's like you have to Actually, it's it's never
that emergent. It's so it has to be if you most times you can say I'm going to take twenty four hours to think about this, and I think that when you actually have that time to sit back, you actually look at your diary, you actually look at the things that you have in place that you have to do, that you actually can actually think about a response that is probably maybe even like a no or closer to a no, or you know, I'll you know, can I do it? But can I do it this way rather
than a yes to everything? And I've got to say, Amana, I did this just last week where I was having a meeting. It was a really amazing project and one of the collaborators said could you do this? And I went yes, And then I walked away from that conversation going I don't have time to just say yes to this. And I actually had to think about going back and saying I need I need more time and I need some help with this because I recognized I said yes way too quickly.
And is that because you're a people pleaser?
Yes? Absolutely, And I'm just really excited about this project and so I want to get it off the ground, and so I was thinking if I got involved, then it would be more likely to get off the ground. But it's probably that's not true. And you know that other people could actually be involved and it would probably make it for a better project as well. So taking time is really important and the other piece. Then I think that gets in the way of saying no, Amanda.
That I often think about is that and I think about this in my closet, which is weird that if I'm going to add one more thing to my already full closet, is there something that I can take out of my closet At the same time, if I'm thinking about purchasing something, so thinking about if I'm going to say yes to something, is there something that I can say no to or is there something that I can
take off of my plate? And you know, basically, often especially as mothers, will say yes, yes, yes, yes again as people pleasers, but if you actually had to think about the things that you were giving up, it's often like things like that you really value, like time with your children. And if you actually had to go and look at your children and say no, I've just said yes to this helping the band at the school organize for a trip, which means that I can't spend time
with you my children. You know, if you actually had to have that, you know, say that to them, you'd probably see no.
When the kids were younger, I said yes to a lot of charity stuff because I thought, you know, the local hospital would ask me to do things. I think, how can I say no? I've got two healthy children. But Saturday after Saturday after Saturday, I was watching them have night in front of the TV, eating pizza or everything. I want to do that. Yeah, I want to be
at home tonight eating pizza. But I felt my civic duty was such was I'm better now it's saying my own mental health needs a night at home here.
I'm much better at that. Yeah.
But I've been guilty of all that stuff, and now by nature, I say no to everything unless I get cost Otherwise. I might have spoken about this before, But what the sales does when she says no to something, she puts a dot in her diary. So when that week comes up, she goes my healthy boundaries. I mean, I don't have to do that and that this week.
And you get to just be joyful in that moment.
Yeah, because you might say yes to something when your week looks empty into them, But of course by the time you get there, you've got a thousand other things as well.
You know what. That one of the biggest things that I was this message that I took away from this, this whole research into this non promotable time. Is that I think I'm probably most guilty of this, Samanda, is that somebody asks you to do something and it kind of strokes your ego a little bit and you go, oh, well, you know, they think I'm amazing, they think I can go.
Into space that yes, Katie Perry, of course I will.
Of course I will. It's it is that that kind of that ego boost.
It's nothing wrong with that time.
I don't think that there is. But the reality is, and this was the thing that really struck me, is that I can still say no and be and I can still delight in the moment that they thought that I was somebody who was able to do this thing.
Yeah, so you can still win.
I can still win. And really in those moments, I've never really considered that part of the equation. That it was just you know, and we see that always just an honor to be you know, to be asked. But I think that this is that statement and action which I really really liked.
I saw a couple of things.
This week that are touching on this too, and it's about unpaid work as an intern, and a couple of people are arking up on that. I just saw this during the week A woman I don't know who she's just came up on my feed. Said a couple of weeks ago, I shared a post about the major corporation that offered me exposure as compensation for my time as an artist working on one of their upcoming projects. I refused their offer and stood up for what I believe
is my value as an artist. The post went viral, lots of people saw it, lots of people ended up following my art and she said, Then the unthinkable happened. Someone who designs movie sets reached out to me asked if I'd be comfortable licensing two of my artworks for an upcoming movie. I accepted, and I've just licensed to artworks to Netflix.
Wow.
And the same day I saw that, I saw this other.
One, someone saying my forever mood. Unfortunately I can't take on unpaid work to help you make money at this time.
Thanks for thinking of me.
And then she said, I know this is a controversial viewpoint, but she says there are so many huge, profitable companies and brands, including plenty of female run brands, who expect other women to work for free, which they say is in the spirit of women, supporting women and empowering women, and it's utter bullshit. If we all stood together against huge corporations expecting this, then they'd sit up and take notice.
And oh my god, and most organizations would crumble if it didn't, you know, if there weren't people putting their hands up to do a lot of these little unpaid bits. And the question is should they be really unpaid things, or should they act be part of a payment structure, or should they be things that are considered within you for promotion And because after.
A while, when they say it's a good experience, you go, Okay, I'm sixty three years old.
I've got enough experience now.
It's it's so true. And but I was thinking about it, and I'm I think, over my life, I have been guilty of this where I have asked when I there's something that I need to ask to get done, it is often easier for me to go to another woman to ask her to help me, rather than asking a guy to do it.
Interesting, So we're all guilty of it, yep.
I think so. I think that I anticipate that there is going to be difficulty in getting a yes. I'm probably also guilty if I think about it that I think that sometimes I anticipate that a man might not do the job as well, maybe even like that, you know what I mean? Like you know that that's saying about if you want something done, ask a busy woman, you know. And so I don't know is that you know, how do I?
How do I? By doing that?
Afy doing that, we perpetuate situation as well. Yeah, you may you finish here. I'm going to go up to the male CEO. I'm ask him to go and wash my CarH me, you don't see me next week?
You know it hasn't gone so well.
I want pictures after to show a great job his son?
What him to do in a bikini.
At least hot pants?
Wow?
Yeah?
You know.
The other piece that really struck me.
Is that.
The and I hadn't thought about this either, is that it is so much easier to say no to a close friend than it is to an acquaintance. Because our close friends know us, they love us, it feels easier to say no, and so we tend to go and say yes to acquaintances when we are people pleasers that we want to we want to feel like because we don't know them. We want them to see us in a positive light.
I've got a friend who explained it in very blunt terms. He said, he sees more of his dealist friends and he does his alist friends because his ailist friends get it. The dealer's friends are more persistent, and he thinks, I'll just say yes and get out of the way, whereas our good friends, you can kick that can down the road for two years and they'll still be your best friend.
Isn't that Isn't that a frightening thought? Yeah, so, thinking about this, it really was kind of sobering recognition, a sobering reflection of how am I contributing to this? And thinking about how do I? How do I shift this? And especially because I work primarily with females and most of my students are females, most of my colleagues are females. How do I how do I address this?
Do everything yourself, Anita, give it to a busy woman.
That woman is you, that woman is me?
And why don't you wash my car? Equal opportunity.
You know what it's going to turn out like though, I'm going to leave the windows open and yeah, I'm going to start our glimmers today. I got Mike, Well, I got my cup filled a little bit. A couple of weekends ago, Emma and I went to U yoga and and meditation.
Wekend that sounds hideous. Was there alcohol involved?
There was no alcohol in my result, but you know there was amazing glorious vegetarian food, which you know, I could have done with a bit of protein, but it was okay. And like the food was really beautiful and you could really partake as much of it as you wanted. If you wanted to do the early yoga class you could. If you if you just wanted to sit around and read a book, you could and go for a walk you could. It was glorious. It was really absolutely what I needed to go and fill my cup.
I just yeah, I go to cup with turbal Tea.
I did, and you know, it was so lovely because it was it was cool to see that there were some people there who go regularly to do these things, and there was also some people that were kind of first time people and it was so interesting to watch them drink the kool aid, as it were, but to actually embrace the idea of a different way of kind of getting offline for a couple of days it was. I really enjoyed it, really needed it.
Well, that's going to make my glimmers sound a little shallow either. But I have founded a new site and I'll show it to you, Anita.
Mm hmm.
It's called Hot Guys Reading and it keeps popping up on my feed. The more I watch it, the more it pops up on my feet. I'm happy to be in that algorithm. And it's men who are photographed reading on buses, reading at airports.
Or not reading it loud, Just hot guys with a book in their hands, like an actual book, actual book?
Could it be more attracted?
Oh?
Actual book?
Like that reading actual See where my head went. I was in Japan quite a few years ago, and I was on one of those trains in around the city of Tokyo, and there was a whole bunch of businessmen and they were reading books. But they were reading those maga but.
Manga comics but a highly sexualized schoolgirl.
And I was like, oh, that's creepy, so this but this sounds good?
Yes, And I don't see what they're reading, and I don't need to know what they're reading. Just a handsome man and an argol jumper or someone sitting in a nicely tailored jacket. You know they're not wearing hoodies and stuff. These are nice looking, polished men reading books. Who would have thought that that's all it would take to inflame me. I've moved, you know, I've had my fairy porn. I'm still making my way through the dragon porn. But the real world porn isn't bad.
It's not bad at all. It is amazing how we can get to the point of going a man with a nicely tailored a man of reading a book does it?
How sad are we? That's where we are. I'll share it with you.
Please share, We see it