This podcast is for general information only and should not be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their healthcare professionals for specific medical advice.
Well.
Hello, I'm Amanda Kella and I'm Anita mcgreenor, and welcome to Double a Chattery. Anita, you said today you wanted to talk about I wasn't really paying attention obviously about creeps.
Oh, I'm happy to talk about crepes. I want to talk about creeps. Who are who are the creeps? The creep is the idea in many ways about the neurological, the psychological conversations that we seem to be having that I used to only have with colleagues. So it used to be like a lot of the terminology, you know, this is an anxious person, this is a you know, all those kinds of the terminal. I've got PTSD, I've got this are things that I would have thirty years
ago when I first started. Most laymen would never have used the words, nor would have they understood really from a psychological point, what they meant. And there's this idea that's called concept creep. And this is where the creep comes in, Amanda, And it is no crepes. We're going We're just going creeps, okay, sugar free creeps, sugar free creeps. And basically it's that how there are some phrases, some ideas, some concepts in our that we're using in society today
that has made some things almost meaningless. And give me let me give you the example that if you know, if somebody comes to you and they say, oh, Amanda, I've just I've been traumatized. My bus was late and I you know, it was late for an appointment. Now, that's not as we would understand it as psychologists what trauma means. It may have been upsetting, it may have been frustrating, it may have been a whole bunch of things.
But we seem to be almost so easily kind of sliding these terms that have quite specific meaning into our conversations.
And what's the harm? Are we diluting the language so that when we really mean it, it's gone.
Yes, I think that yes. And and you know, I I often have people come in and you know, clients who will say something like you know, I've I've got I've got adhd or I've you know, I've got trauma, And I'll say, well, how do you know, were you diagnosed with with you know, ADHD or whatever, And they'll say, oh, no, I saw a show on it, or my mom told me I did you know she saw a show on it?
Or she read something about it, and and I you know, from a psychological point of view, it it makes me wonder about when people say I am I have like does it make them more or less like? Does it make them more fragile in having that, you know, in self diagnosing or in saying I have this?
Do you think that more of us have this stuff? Anxiety depression ADHD? Or is the diagnostic tools better? I think that.
It can be one or the other. It could be that we're just getting better at diagnosing people and recognizing the kind of hidden sectors of populations that have particular symptoms, and or it could be that there is this idea of concept creep and the researchers you're talking about how this pathologizing of behavior has come in two ways. So
the first way is this vertical expansion. So trauma is a good example where the criteria for inclusion for PTSD for the post traumatic stress disorder, which is kind of the label, the diagnostic label we put on people who've experienced like a really serious significant trauma where the person must have been exposed to death or threatened death or serious injury or sexual violence through direct experiencing or witnessing or learning about how it happened with a close friend
or relative, or repeated exposure to distressing details. So when PTSD was first identified that it was it had very very strict criteria, and then the it expanded vertically so that there are vertically vertically is up. So there was just more and more things. Yeah. So and it's kind
of like, what do we call PTSD now? And every time that there's a new book called the DSM Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, it's made by is published by the American Psychological Association, that there is conversations about what should be included. And some of the ideas about what should be included now are things like childbirth, sexual harassment, infidelity, or even things like having to move suddenly.
Wow, so they are now diagnostically included PTSD.
Man But there are calls to say, let's consider this as part of the inclusionary criteria for saying that you've
got PTSD. And so there's more and more people who are kind of saying I've had like I, you know, my partner cheated on me, and I'm traumatized now and and I don't you know, and I think that no one would want to go and say, well, that's not a difficult situation and that you may have you know that there may be really significant consequences to that emotional and you know, resource wise about you know, if somebody is cheated on you and you have to think about it,
Am I going to divorce this person? And you know what's going to what's going to happen? But it doesn't meet the criteria for what we currently say is PTSD.
What's the harm in including it?
Well, you know, again, it dilutes it. You know, there could be like there's also something that's called an adjustment disorder, which is like that brief you know, we've all had this where something terrible happens and there's a period of a few months where we really struggle to get our feedback under ourselves, but then we move on. The difference between that kind of normal reaction to an abnormal situation
and PTSD is that PTSD is long term. It lasts for over six months, It involves many areas of your life. And it is really a term that is historically reserved for kind of those abnormal situations that carry like significant psychological burden with it. And it's and I also get why people would say, it feels really terrible that this happened to me, and it feels like it's it's going to go on forever. And so it's it's it's interesting that there is this push towards this vertical expansion of
these concepts. The other piece is that there are ideas that are horizontally expanding. So bullying used to happen in a schoolyard, right, That's that was you know, as I was growing up, That's the only place that I would hear about bullying. Now bullying happens in the in the workforce, you know, like you can have you know, work site bullying.
But it's also.
Happening in on social media as well, and so the concept of bullying has expanded horizontally as well that it it includes quantity, like qualitatively different things, because online bullying looks in some ways the same, but in some ways quite different. It's often it's the anonymous nature of social media that is different than the school yard bullying you often know who your bully is, right, and there's often the other piece is that on school yards there's the bully,
the bullier, and then there's the bystander, right. And in social.
Media there's no bystanding.
There's no bystander who's who can look at the bully and say stop that. You know, that's terrible. I mean you can do that get I guess in reactions and comments and that kind of stuff, but it's not exactly that that immediate reaction that is available.
And so what are the implications of bullying expanding, because it's hard to know too when your kids a little as to whether you're being razzed at school, not bullied. Yeah, you know, someone's poking fun at you. It's going to happen. That's not bullying.
And this is what this is what you were talking about before saying, are we just getting better at including, you know, diagnosing and including and doing that kind of stuff. Is that if we continue to expand the definitions of how we're looking at things like bullying or you know, some of the other concepts that seem to have really expanded in the last even twenty or thirty years, ADHD anxiety, those kinds of things. Are we getting better at dinognosing or are we just is there this concept creed?
Are the implications in all of this for the person who is told you do have ADHD or you have been bullied, you do have post traumatic stress? Does that make you feel better or worse to be recognized as such?
Well? So, the potential advantage when I think about this, is that it means that more, you know, if you can get diagnosed with you know something that then often it it triggers a you know, resources that can be used,
which is awesome. It means that destigmatization can actually happen that, you know, if you kind of say, you know, I've i've I've lived all my life, uh, you know, and I was just called weird and now I've I've you know, been diagnosed with you know, whether it's you know, anxiety or autism spectrum disorder or something, and it destigmatizes, you know, if you can have that label and you can say I love that I am this person now and then I don't feel that the label identifies me. I think
that that can be fantastic. It also means that that we can be potentially more aware and sensitive to the suffering of that if we have more awareness about some of those different diagnoses you know, trauma related and otherwhen you know, neurodevelopmental and all that, that we can actually be more sensitive. On the other hand, though, what is the other hand? This is the other hand, if we are over pathologizing, if we are if this concept creep
is actually happening, it can encourage victimhood. You know, I can't do anything because I've had a trauma. I can't do anything like I can't you.
Know, I'm not good at this part of my job because I've got ADHD.
Yeah, And it also creates a culture of fragility and excuse making, and you know, potentially creates a situation where people aren't or won't take responsibility for their predicament for their situation. And while it can be empowering to have the diagnosis, it can also be seen as a reason for pessimism and less autonomy around self change how to
useful as a psychologist. I you know, I really struggle in you know, in looking at you know, the mental health diagnosis has just burgeoned since I've become a psychologist. And as I say, I mean, there's this part of me that says, maybe education is working. Maybe that's fantastic, and it is great to go and see that ability to go in front confront stigma and all those kinds of things, and I really I just struggled with it.
And I watch sometimes the the movement by well meaning people into situations where situations just get more and more ambiguous, and I think that the example that I would use is where you know, you know, HR departments of many companies are writing in you know, kind of ambiguous language, like you know that somehow you could consider it bullying or harassment if it you know, you were felt, if you felt that you were limited in your ability to express an opinion, or or that somehow that your boss
made unreasonable work demands. And it's and you know, it's maybe if there's evidence to say, yes, you know, my boss asked me to work you know, through seventeen weekends.
You know, that's.
That would be that would be unreasonable amount it. But but at what point do we you know there's there's there's sometimes you need quantification of things. And as much as I really struggle with our diagnostic and statistical manual that we use for diagnosis, I really struggle in general
with the whole idea of diagnosis. I mean, I my sense is that I tend to go and shy away from making diagnosis although I can as a psychologist, I tend to go and and step away from it when I can, because I just find that that labeling can really have an impact.
Was it you telling me the story about in Japan they didn't have a word for depression. Yeah, until they wanted to market a drug at it. Yeah.
Absolutely, the pharmaceutical companies went into Japan and trained psychiatrists to diagnose and label people with depression so that they
could give them antidepressants. Now there was in Japan a word for like what we would have considered like like ultra depression, but there wasn't kind of that you know, what we see as maybe melancholia or or like mild depression or you know that, you know, the adjustment disorder that I mentioned, And so it wouldn't have been there wouldn't have been the market in Japan for.
They had to tell people what they had so they could create a market. Yeah.
Yeah, and it's it's like the pharmaceutical companies, you know, have a lot to answer for. But you know, they also kind of said you know, the whole idea, they've got social anxiety, which historically was shyness, and just kind of a you.
Know, is that a concept creep shyness has become social anxiety.
Yeah, that would be a good example of concept creep.
Wow.
Yeah. And there's a drug for it now, Amanda, Is there a drug.
For social anxiety? Yeah, it's it called alcohol.
We have we have done a lot of research in that.
Maybe fun as anxious. On my own, I thought that was very interesting. Thank you, Anita for being the brains in the room.
Mm, you're welcome.
Should we get to our glimmers.
Let's I've got I've got one that I've we recently, we a bunch of women came together over a period about three days, Amanda, and you were part of this, and you know, I was thinking about this amazing recipe of really cool chicks who over a period of days,
because it's part of the recipe is time. Is that we were able to have these like conversations where we are able to go and dive really deep into some of the stuff that was going on some of us, for some of us individually, but for you know, a lot of the conversations we were having were things that all of us were experiencing, and I was just I was so grateful for the time that we were able to spend just feeling supported, validated, loved.
And being allowed to be vulnerable. I felt many times an emotional storm come through and I just let it, and then someone else could have one and we'd talk about what was coming up for them. I've discovered I'm a person that doesn't very often let my guard down, and I felt that too on that weekend of safe space to do all of that and to let the storm roll through. When you come out the other side,
and then five minutes later you're laughing about something. To the light, the shade, all the nuances, as you say, of everything all of us were going through, some of it universal, some of it highly specific friends who've known each other a long time. It was filling up the cup, wasn't it.
It really was best kind of self care ever with chips included. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, and a couple of drinks and one or two drinks, perfect perfect combination. Then what's yours?
I've just seen this. I saw this story. It's about an American father who he said he's been a single dad since his daughter was one shes popa with mouse seven or so. And I don't know what the single dad means, he shares custody or not, but he has set up classes to help other men in similar circumstances learn how to do their daughter's hair. This is so sweet. It was so sweet. And he said he's helped three
hundred dads so far. And he said, just to keep the connection there, whether it's divorce or whatever, what circumstances you find yourself in. And he said, and beautiful footage of these men combing their daughter's hair, braiding it. He said, it's all about the effort. Even a messy bun is time spent together. He said, it's not about the braid,
it's about the bond. Just beautiful. And he said it's also giving these young girls a role model, because sometimes in these split families or whatever the situation is, these girls don't get that. He said, these gender roles are revolving, are revolving. The gender ross, gender roles are evolving. And he said, to be a father, it's no longer just about bringing home the bacon. It's this connection that you want with your kids. And what a wonderful way to
do it. So you're getting your daughter ready for school or whatever it is. She's happy because her hair looks great, her dad's done her hair. And there are these classes where like minded men are doing this with their daughters.
It would be so like just giving permission for men to do that. And can you imagine the memories that are developing for these young girls when they grow up and they say, Dad used to the used to do the best French breed in my hair.
Absolutely, and the knock on effect of the confidence you get that you're going to school in a week where dad's looking after and you still look great. But the time you've spent with your dad doing it, and for the dad to feel absolutely contributing in a different kind of way to his daughter's life. It's a Greek It's a great one. Yeah. All right, well, love you, Love you too. Anything we've spoken about, Please feel free to
comment on our socials. We love hearing what you think and we'll see you next time.
See you,