What was your AOL instant messenger name? Do you remember it?
My closest friend at the time, her name was Tiffany Lindsay. Shout out to her, and she gave me the nickname Teter, and so my screen name back then was Teeter Totter zero five. For the year that I graduated high school? What was the obsession with the year that we graduated high We were obsessed. I'm t T and I'm Zakiah And this is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science with pop culture and
a healthy dose of friendship. We've gone from anonymous screen names to streaming our lives in four K. Every gadget from our phones to our refrigerators are online.
But do we really know what that means? No, we don't.
That's the problem, and I think that's exactly what this lab is all about.
So let's start with what we do know.
What I know is we share almost everything online. And when I say we, I mean the collective we Most people that I know are putting a lot of their lives on the Internet. I think the other thing we know, and if you don't know, you are increasingly learning is that these smart devices are always listening. I'll be the first to say. Before I used to be like, who has time to do extra manufacturing, Like nobody's including a microphone and a device that's not marketed as having a
microphone or a speaker. But I'm not so sure about that, right. And with that in mind, and knowing that the Internet connects all of us, it also exposes us, you know, it would become very vulnerable because of it. Yes, and that's not even just what you share. That feels like where you've been, like a physical history, location services from your phone. Yeah, people know where you are. Somebody knows where you are, somebody Oh yeah, but t T what.
Do we want to know?
I want to know how we went from dial up innocence to total surveillance, because I mean, that's within our lifetime, Zee, like to go from dial up internet to now it's like pervasive. It's ubiquitous to have all of these like location services and things listening to you, and your emails are sending you emails of things that you searched on the Internet, and.
It's just wild, like how did we get there? And why did it happen so fast?
And now that we're there and we know that some of these platforms are breaking our trusts and putting cookies on our phone and tracking what you do. Why do we still trust the platforms that are doing that? Why do we still use them? And now it's starting to shift to like it just being par for the core, I guess. And so with that thinking about that, I'm like, is privacy now just a.
Thing of the past? Like is it a nostalgic thing?
Yeah, it's like, oh remember the good old days, like when nobody could figure out where you lived by just doing a simple Google search, or people couldn't find out where you worked, Like people couldn't find pictures of you unless you know, you put them out there, Like it's just wild. And you're talking about privacy being nostalgic, girl, what about fun on the internet?
Nostalgic?
The Internet is not fun no more. I don't like it. It just feels everything is so mean, judgmental, like fake. Everybody's just showing like the good stuff, Like I'm just like, oh my gosh, show me your messy bedside table. That's my favorite thing to see.
Yep. To answer all of.
Our burning questions about the Internet, where it used to be, how it got to how it is and what we can do about it. We're talking to Bridget Time, host of There Are No Girls on the Internet. She's a digital activist, podcaster, and professional Internet explainer. You can find her on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC.
The Bridget.
We want to start out with reflecting just how much the Internet has changed. It's gone from the scary thing where your parents said don't talk to strangers to all of us sharing everything.
Back in the.
Day, if you met on a dating app or an online dating site, if there was a stigma to it. I remember a woman in my school I met her husband on an online dating like ooh scandal. And now that's how the majority of people meet their partners.
Mm hm, that's how majority people meet are meeting friends. These days, people are meeting their friends online and then meeting up and saying, hey, I'm meeting irl in real life, and it's just wild. I mean, I remember back in the day putting your card information into anything online. It was just like, might as well just broadcast it to everybody in the world because it just didn't feel safe.
And now I'm like, if my card information is not stored on my phone and I'm able to just tap tap use my face by the thing I am not.
What is the point of living in a surveillance state if I still have to by hand type in my credit card information every single time.
There has to be perks. There has to be perks to living in the surveillance state. I always say it.
Is I think we're all hostage to convenience.
Like I think convenience is what has eroded some of the long arm that we had to keep us kind of distant from the Internet. And it feels like convenience is like the carrot that they dangled in Now we're all just all in. Yeah, And I don't want to act like I'm immune to it or above it, because only recently that I start really doing a deep dive into the ways that I have let the convenience of things.
Like Uber Eats, you know, things like.
Amazon really shape and rebuild my life in ways I hadn't even ever really noticed or thought about. And I've been trying to make intentional efforts to not just resist that but just be more aware of it. But I do think this grip that novelty and convenience has on us is directly responsible to where we are when it comes to our current online and social media landscape.
It really has us in a choke hold.
It's such a good point. I mean, I think the amount of trust that we put into the Internet, the cloud, all those things is really mind boggling, because I mean that's why when people are like, oh, I don't want them to take my picture here, because I'm like, hey, yeah, they already have it. I hate to hate to break the news too, they already have. They're like, oh you don't you can opt out of those pictures at TSA.
Hey you have a driver's license. TSA has your photo, whether it's a live photo with your hair up in a ponytail on top of your head and crusting your eyes or your license either or they have your photo. So like we have to stop convincing ourselves that we aren't living in a surveillance state. And so, I mean, it just kind of is what it is.
I have these conversations with my uncles and cousins where they're like, oh, don't do X y Z. That's how they get you. And I'm like, well, I think they have You're on social media.
I think they have you.
I don't think I think that ship has sailed. This is sort of what I always preach on the show. I completely am aligned with you that like they've got us. But I think it also is easy to sort of let that very true attitude be like, oh.
Well, then there's no need.
For digital security practices. It you have to find a balance between kind of the reality that we live in this surveillance state and not falling into like digital nihilisms, like so it doesn't matter, there's no need to try to be secure, there's no need for two vector authentication, there's no need to take common sense you know, free digital security practices actually right now.
But it is. It is a very weird balance.
And I just think you're so right that I would never have thought that we and I'm including myself very much in this, would give up so much for things like convenience and novelty.
And I think the question we should be asking the question of.
Is the convenience that we're getting back is it worth those trade offs?
Because I think the answer is not always hard.
Yes, right.
I think this is so interesting because we had these two women on our show. They talked about science denial, and they talked about it not being that you blanket deny science, but that you cafeteria style pick what you want. I'm doing that with my digital privacy and trust. Like t T and I have a difference. I'm gonna say TT is present except on all those cookies.
Ooh, t T. I just don't want to wait.
I'm like, I was like, if it's taking me from Instagram, I'm like, ooh, that bag looks so good, and I hit open and then it's like, do you accept I'm like, yes, except I want to see the bag. I'm not doing that. But there's something recently that you posted, Bridget that made me think about something I am doing. I'm against a ring doorbell camera, but I have a camera in my
kitchen which points to like my back door. Now, I know, TT shocking, right, Like I'm saying no to the cookies, but that camera is connected to Wi Fi, you know. And I'm like, there's so many like people have refrigerators and baby monitors and all these things that connect to Wi Fi, and I am not in the position to be protecting these devices and what they're connected to. And why does my thumbstat at my house have a speaker
on it? I just found that on accident the other day trying to connect my Apple TV to an output, and I was like, you don't know what's going on.
Girl.
You have these devices in here, but you just talked about Wendy on Real housewile Kiamic. Oh yeah, I want you to give a some give our audience a rundown of what's happening and how these devices can betray you. Oh my gosh, so thank you for even asking me this question, because this is just such a cross section
of my specific interest. So, doctor Wendyosefo, she is one of the stars the Real Housewives of Potomac, and I guess, like if I were to classify her on like a type on the show, she is educated.
She will never let you forget that she has four degrees. She's a PhD. Like she's a smart cookie.
And her and her husband were both arrested because police say they had staged a burglary in their home while they were on vacation out of the country, and then they said, oh, all of these luxury goods were stolen. They filed those goods with their insurance. They were attempting to, according to police, scam their various insurance companies almost for a half a million dollars, so like a pretty you know, this is.
A big chunk.
We're talking about felony level charges here.
And when I heard this, I was shook.
I don't know if you guys watched the show, but of all the people probably across the Bravo universe, of the shows I watched, I can't think of somebody that I was least expecting this kind of news from. Then, when there are a million other people, I would have thought, oh, well, she probably she might go to jail, she might get arrested. Wendy is not high on that list. So I poured through the police report.
I was like, I need to know. I want some information.
And when I got to the point of the police report where they said, oh, well, they had a ring camera that was turned on that they were monitoring remotely while they were on vacation in Jamaica, and that ring camera showed Amazon delivery drivers coming up to their house
dropping off packages and leaving, but nobody entering. And further, they had an ADYT security system that was also turned on while they were on vacation, supposedly getting robbed, that had motion detectors that did not log any motion from within their home at the time when they said they were being robbed.
So I Wendy's a smart.
Cookie, but I don't know that in our current sort of surveillance state that she might have known. Oh, these systems that I voluntarily put in my home aren't just recording bad guys or suspicious characters whatever. They're recording me, and you know, innocidential proven guilty. I don't know what
actually happened there. We'll see, but it just goes to show that I don't think people really understand these are surveillance devices, and oftentimes ring camera especially, they can share information with police without a warrant and without your consent.
I believe ADT don't quote me in this.
I believe ADT will share information with police if there is an act of investigation. So I don't think that police need a warrant, But if the police ask, they're not necessarily protecting your privacy. And I just think with things like ring camera, I think there is an attitude that you get the camera in your house so that you surveil others, and you don't understand necessarily that like, well, that also means you are the one being surveilled and you brought this on yourself.
And so with Wendy, to me, it does kind of.
Seem like she paid to voluntarily put an OP in her home, and if she was indeed doing scams and crimes, might not be the best thing to do. And I just don't But I think it illustrates that we're not necessarily thinking about technology like this in that way, Like when you buy it, you think this is for me to surveil others. Certainly I will not be the surveiled, And yeah, in a surveillance siled.
I could say the same thing for every device that we have, like I mean even your location services on your phone, that data is being collected. That's the reason why when someone goes missing, they're like find their cell phone, which towers isn't pinging off of and things like that. So if every device is collecting data, who is that data really for the company or law enforcement, or for us or all three?
And it goes back to what you were saying about your the various items that you have in your home. I think people don't realize how hard it is to find common household electronics that do not have some sort of recording device. In them, and you know your fridge, your ice maker, your toaster, like the way that everything
is smart now. I recently wanted to buy fitness trackers and I had to really do a lot of research to find one that was quote dumb enough for me, because yeah, I want to log my steps and get some information about my sleep. I don't want my location being tracked everywhere. I don't want my menstrual cycles being information at Amazon collects about me. Some of this stuff
is intimate, and I actually don't really consent. There's actually a really great gift guide that Mozilla Foundation put out called the Privacy Not Included Guide, where you can look at different consumer tech and say, like, okay, which one is surveilling me the most and which one is revealing me the least, just so that you can make informed decisions about how the stuff fits in with your life.
I use AT and T and I think it really clicked for me. When there's a thing you can log in and see how many devices are trying to connect to the WiFi.
I was like, what are the thirty seven items? What are they?
What are they? It is that?
Man? It was blowing my mind.
You got people in there it's me and the devices. And I was like, you have to turn this stuff off. Another thing that I have a feeling about. And I'm like, bridget tell me if I'm tripping. Sometimes I turn off Wi Fi while I'm out, and same thing for Bluetooth, and then i feel like I look again and the WiFi is back on, and I'm like, I know, and I'm like, I feel like I have to actively monitor my device to keep myself safe.
Yeah, Am I making that up? Or is that nothing?
I think our devices will default to those kinds of settings, and even if you tell it, hey, I don't really want this, it will always go back to that default you're not trip. And I actually just learned this recently. It's gonna be a year or two ago. I was reading something where someone said, oh, you shouldn't connect to public Wi Fi if you go to an airport or something.
Because that's that's how they get you. And I said, oh, that's not true. That's just a lie. I looked into it. It's not it's not it's not a lie.
Wow, I use a personal hotspot. I was trying to trust a Delta lounge and I said, I don't know. I don't know the way they're trying to treat me with these ticket categories. They can't be trusted anymore either.
But those those snacks are.
Very fa Yeah.
I do a lot of personal hotspotting too, because there are these things that you think of as commonplace or that you think of as well. They wouldn't be offering this amenity if it was if there was a risk to me. And that's not always true, but even that line of thinking, I think.
Exposes how easy it is to make.
Decisions that you don't you don't even really think about it, where you're trading on these risks and benefits to you. And yeah, I think just it behooves us to have more intentional conversations about these things as as more of our devices become smart and Wi Fi enabled.
Yeah, right right, you had a smart toilet, is gonna be telling all your poos?
Well, she was not happy last night.
But you've talked about what it's like to be a black woman who lives online, So we talked about surveillance and so adding that additional layer of being a black woman. What kind of risks do you feel like comes with that kind of Oh my.
Gosh, I mean, if you would have asked me this question maybe two years ago, I would have had a lot to say.
Right, I would have said, Oh, it's you know, the.
Idea of being visible online, making your career online, being somebody who shows up on the internet as a black woman with opinions, with things to say.
You know, it can be tough but also can be good.
You know, there's community there, there's joy there, there is resistance there. There is so much connection there. But it's a double edged sword where there's also a tax. There's also you know, very disingenuous people where no matter what you say, there's gonna be somebody waiting in the wings to take it out of context. That is what I would have said probably two years ago. Today in twenty twenty five, if I'm being honest, I barely show up online anymore.
I just think that it's I don't know. I don't want to sound.
Like a like a doom and gloomer, because I love the Internet and I'm forever and optimist about technology and the Internet and all of those things. Those things are so important to me. But I think it started when Elon Musk bought Twitter and I was just sort of really mourning the loss of that platform, because that was an important platform for me.
If you were a part of og Black Twitter.
You remember what it felt like to be there and like the genuine joy and connection that was to be found there. I was like, Oh, I know it's gonna be trash, but let me just stick around and see what this platform is like. And it was just it felt like day by day, little by little being chipped away. And it wasn't just the over the top races and the amplification of.
Conspiracy theories and all of that.
It was a lot of that, but also it felt like wading through spam much more often. And this has got to say that the early days of Twitter were great, because I had a lot of problems with those days as well. But after a while I just thought, what am I getting out of this? Like it is not bringing me any kind of joy to sign on here day after day. And I do think that the decisions that Elon Musk made about Twitter, I think for verberated across a lot of social media platforms, and so I
think it wasn't just Twitter. I think a lot of platforms where I used to spend a lot of time became a lot less pleasant and a lot less. I guess worth it for me to show up. And so yeah, these days, I hate to say it, I am not really showing up online a ton because there's not There's just not a lot of places that feel like genuine connection and joy anymore. I don't know where do you all fall on this.
I'm curious.
I agree with you, like so, I think one of the things that's really hard is I have those same sentiments. But like, even for us, we don't show up with a video podcast right, we are doing audio only. We don't do as much engagement as we used to because you get the trolls like I love the potential like you, I'm always like, oh, it could be so wonderful.
We could do a live we could have these things.
We could talk to you know, our friends, our dope labs friends, we could do all these things. I'm like, I don't know how much more fallen off on the internet platforms I can take.
When Google Reader died, I was sick.
Okay, then there was then there was Twitter, and then I tried to get on SPIL.
I don't know if you tried spill. I did try it.
I couldn't really find my my group there. I did find some Pokemon players there, which is also an op. You should not be playing Pokemon Go. It's so monitoring your location and do it. I had to stop playing that. But you need all that for that charge yard I do, and so I had to give I had to give it up.
I had to quit Cult Turkey.
But I also found like even on Instagram, the engagement was just different and it felt like you had to be like selling something all the time and not.
Just putting something super state together.
And I was like, I don't even I just found myself in the stories having a good old time. And even after a while that became like and so I feel like I kind of check in a little bit and then I'm out of their threads. It was good at first, Now it's going the way of Twitter with people reposting the same thing over and over again. And then even Pinterest, I was like, at least I can look at pretty pictures. Now it's all ads and all ai as well. Yes, and so I'm like, what's left?
I guess substack, I just keep reading people substancs. I don't know, yes, honestly, like that's how I feel too. I was just talking to one of my sisters about this. Yesterday, I was like Instagram like all the same feelings about Twitter. Like once Twitter changed, I was like, this is no longer a place for me. So I just I don't even bother Instagram. It's to a point where AI where I'm I feel like I'm an old Auntie where I'm like, Wow,
this is amazing. And then my nephew who's eight, is like Auntie TT that's AI, and I'm like.
Oh, are you sure?
I'm never really sure, Like the AI is getting so good that I really am falling victim to and I'm just like this isn't fun, Like I want to see like real stuff, And it's just I agree with Zakia, where it's like the more you put on there, the more it's like they're just people who are so emboldened by the anonymity of social media that it kind of
just like tainted the experience a lot. Where it's just like if you make an account that's purely just theatroll, like come on, like it's just it's just makes the whole experience just feel different. Where it's like now I'm overthinking. Now I'm like, okay, should I put this? What if somebody says this, and I don't want to feel like that, and especially when it's something that's you know, tied to something that I feel like is way bigger than me,
like Dope Labs and the keys involved. I'm like, I really have to think about it because we're attached to this thing, and so we're trying to keep this a safe space for not just us, Like I'm thinking about the other people who really enjoy our show. I don't want them to be subject to, you know, all these different things, and so, you know, but I also feel like if I do remove myself too much, then the
trolls are right, you know what I mean. Like, I feel like we got to keep showing up, and it's just a matter of figuring out ways that we can show up in a way that also we can practice some self preservation so that we can find the spaces where you know, we fit. And it's not like, oh, I'm just throwing myself to the wolves and things like that, you know what I mean.
This is exactly the kind of balance I'm trying to find. And I think to your point about not wanting to let the trolls and bad actors and all those folks and voices win. People love talking about free speech on social media platforms, but when someone stops showing up and stops using their voice and really just goes quiet on these platforms because of these other voices, that is.
Also a free speech issue.
When you feel like you can't use these platforms effectively or equitably to build a platform for yourself or put your voice out there, or you know, engage with your community or whatever you're trying to do.
That is also a free speech issue.
But one kind of saving grace that I have really been kind of reconnecting with lately against the backdrop of all of this, that we all have in common is the form of audio. I have said spicy stuff on the podcast, stuff that if I put it in a tweet or a thread post, I would have to be
back and forth all day. I think there is something about long form audio content where if somebody wants to take my words out of content text or misconstrue them, or you know they're committed to misunderstanding me, they have to listen to an hour long podcast to do that.
The barrier is quite high. So you gotta you gotta really want to do.
That to me.
You got to really, I was just talking to you a friend of mine that makes podcasts, and his podcast is quite big, it's one of the biggest podcasts.
In the world.
And he said that, you know, he doesn't weirdly, he doesn't really get a lot of trolls and stuff because.
They're not out here doing short form.
They're not on Twitter really or blue Sky really, they're not in that sort of live streamer debate kind of circle.
And that.
Yeah, audio can be kind of protective, and I think it's because it's a medium that is so you can be authentic there. You can explain what you need to say in your own words. One of my favorite things about listening to audio content is listening to somebody work their way or think their way through a concept they haven't fully.
Flushed out yet.
You get to hear the wheels turning in real time.
I think that's a medium that lends itself to thoughtfulness in a against a media backdrop where I feel like so much of it is going the other way. Short form videos, you know, AI slop that just feeds into the worst stereotypes and whatever. Like, Yeah, against that backdrop, I think audio is really where I'm finding a lot.
Of my comfort.
Yeah, I think it's definitely been. I mean it was the gateway for me and t T, and I think is where we feel like best and safest.
And I'm like, make a real I don't know every now and.
Every now and then we get one together and TT gets on me because I won't cross post it to Dope Labs because.
I'm like, it might not be right.
I don't want to bring dope laus into this.
Yeah.
I love that you're you've both expressed that now that this is kind of lovely.
You both expressed, oh, well.
I want to be accountable to Dope Labs and I want to be accountable to my co host. And that's a beautiful thing that you're both kind of like really feel a responsibility both to your audience that you have built and to each other as partners in this.
That is really beautiful.
Yes, because dope Blabs can go away. That is my friend in real life and I would not trade her for anything, and so anything that I feel like would be a bad look for her, I'm like, nah, not doing it.
Now.
I have another question for you, Bridget, because you've talked a little bit about like we've talked about audio being this kind of protective space. Some people I've seen talking about this, So I've seen people talk about building your own email list and not really relying on these platforms. TT and I sometimes talk about it like the democratization of media, like it's neutral and it's open and everybody can have access. But I think that's like just the
base layer when you paint the picture. I think there are so many other layers to this, and I'm curious about, like what would it look like to clean up the Internet or to make it better? Like, and I know that's a big question, but like, what are some of the you think the first steps.
Oh, I think one of the first steps is that Mark Zuckerberg has to resign. No, I'm kidding, uh, but you know, I really think the first step has to be building an entire I mean this is no, this is a tall order, but we really need a digital media ecosystem that has things like care and empathy at the center instead of things like scale and growth at
all costs. I think that every experience that you have online where you're like, oh, this used to be a fun you know, you used to be able to read articles on your phone and then you could click on a link and you didn't have to worry that so many things were gonna pop up that it was gonna you just was you couldn't even read the article. It didn't used to always be like that. There there's some
sites were like that, but not all. Every time that you have an experience online that seems worse than the way it used to be back in the day, somebody made a decision to prioritize money or growth or something like that over the experience of care or thoughtfulness or something else. And so I think really getting back to what it is that we are designing our tech landscape for and around I think is key. I also would like to see, and this is something that we don't
have to wait to get systemic change on. I think that everybody, everybody listening, all of us, could really use rethinking our relationship with technology, right. I think for so long we have bought into this lie that says, oh, the Elon Musks and the Mark Zuckerbergs of the world, they are special boy geniuses that have it all figured out in a way that none of us could ever hope to And whatever future they are designing is going to be a good version of the future and we just gotta, you know.
Get on board with it.
No, no, but you were Elon Musk is not smarter than anybody listening to this podcast.
That can assure you with that, right, And so I think exactly no me framing.
This idea that that they just get to make all the decisions and have all the power and we have no say because you're an expert in your experience, the way that you feel about the technology in your life that you've paid for, that that that impacts so much of our day to day that is valid and that's real.
And you know, I think we have to make some shifts that shift that balance of power back to us, because none of these people would even have jobs if not for us, None of these people, they would be designing technology for nobody if not for us.
And so I really want all of.
Us to sort of take our power back a little bit, and remember we do have some power and some agency in this dynamic. It doesn't have to just be all them taking from us.
Absolutely, I think that that's such a great point, and I think that was something that we talked about when you had me on your show. There are no girls on the internet was that you know, it's important for us to understand and this technology like AI and things like that, so that we can have the power because the more that we're just like no, no, no, I'm not going to engage. You can choose to engage in
different ways. But it is very important to know how these things work, so you because you'll be able to see the ways that people are trying to control or how you know, these entities are trying to control or take control and you know, shape things for their own financial benefit. And so it's like power to the people, all power to the people. You need to know how these things work. And so all of this makes me think of the like the next generation of Internet users.
How do you think we should be socializing the next generation when it comes to the Internet, like how they would use the Internet as a tool in their lives.
So I really appreciate this question, and I just want to I appreciate what you all are doing, especially for people who are so often let out of conversations about tech that it's I think if you hooves us all to demystify this to you know, not be afraid of it, even if you're somebody who is a little bit of a technophobe, or you're not down with certain kinds of technology. I want all of our people to be comfortable with it, to understand it, to know how to use it, even
if they're like, I don't like this technology. I think that it's so easy to just put your head in the sand and say, therefore, I don't need to know anything about it.
And I think that is a mistake.
And so I'm so grateful for your voices in doing the work of correcting that mistake for us. But when it comes to the next generation, this might sound like Pollyanna media literacy.
I really I worry about.
This so deeply, and hey, I'm not a young person, and I struggle with it. I said, all my friends this video of what I thought was bunnies jumping on a trampoline, and they all have to be like, honey, it's AI. And I realized, I said, oh, I think I have a blind spot when it comes to cute animal videos that are AI.
It's like, I want to believe so badly.
So I am not immune to this, but I do think I am of the generation that was really taught to not trust what you.
Saw online, and I think that those skills.
They're not always perfect, but I think that being socialized that way on the Internet has been tremendously helpful. That when I see something that makes my heart beat faster or gives me a quick, you know, feeling of you know, anger or outrage, I've kind of trained myself to be like, let's read the whole article first of all. Let's yes, if I don't recognize the sources, throw it into Google.
Let's you know, let's take a minute.
Don't just rage share because it made my heart beat a little bit faster. And I worry that we are sort of losing that when it comes to our current Internet experience. And I don't think that that I think that that means we were leaving behind a less thoughtful Internet landscape for the next generation when we're all just so susceptible to the trigger of algorithms that are financially incentivized to keep us locked into these these very emotional triggering loops.
Yeah.
Yeah, oh, I think I've talked about it on the show TT Knows It.
We talk about it.
This is something I am constantly practicing with my parents, with my mom, who's a little bit more on the Internet than my dad, and I think it's so important for T T and I AM, for experts like you to share like, hey, there's no level you reach where nothing infiltrates, like where nothing gets through and you just are you know, little Kim dodging everything the Internet is throwing at you. I think that doesn't happen, and I
think it's unrealistic to think it happens. But it does require this constant vigilance that because we've gotten so comfortable with convenience and the perception of safety and novelty that I think we are like I don't want to do.
This other thing.
Yes, and it does suck because we deserve it landscape where you were not constantly being tricked and you don't have to you have your card up all the time.
There are times where.
I've just woken up, I'm pre morning coffee sip, my contact lenses are not even in yet, and I'm scrolling social media and I shouldn't have to have my thinking cap on twenty four seven just to engage and wad through a media landscape. So we deserve a different media landscape, but unfortunately we don't have that. You do sort of have to, you know, have your thinking cap on even when you're just casually scrolling.
And I know we're talking a lot about like.
Manipulated content or AI generated content, but also I think for me, it's about knowing your triggers, and for me, my triggers are it is AI generated animal videos, but it's also not AI generated content that is an inflammatory. I used to be I used to be very invested in real content that involved real people and sometimes real
sometimes not that would just get me angry. And then one day I said, why, you know, just just because things that relate to like gender wars stuff, Yes, I could be locked in all day, And one day I just said, why, Like, what is this getting me? Getting me riled up about a situation that might even be a skit that somebody has made to get engagement, Like, I don't I need to be locked into.
This all the time. I don't need to be participating into this.
And so I say that to say people should really take the time to understand their triggers and their own tension points we all have them, and then be a little intentional about how you let that kind of content show up in your digital diet.
Right, I'm the exact same way where it's just like rage bait. No way, I'm not engaging like all of the like these these people that are like, oh, we're gonna put these two people at a table who have very different opinions. I'm like, these aren't different opinions. You have someone who is a racist. A second, this as xenophobe talking to someone who is educated, and we should not be intellectualizing someone who is just a racist, full stop.
And then the other part that I reviews to ingest is like these relationships shows something like they have really like Love is Blind. I'm like, now I know you all are doing this stuff on purpose because there was uh or it Love is Blind married at first sight. Like I felt like traumatized by some of these seasons because the men that were on these seasons were predatory and misogynists and all these things like that, and I was just like my blood pressure by the end of
each episode was so high. I was like, this is actually like ruining me. I can't engage with these anymore. And I'm like I see on social media like clips going around from like the most recent Love is Blind, and I'm like, yeah, they're absolutely doing this on purpose. Now I feel like you all are getting these unstable people on this show to create good clips, and you're getting the clips you want, but it's to the detriment usually.
Of black and brown women.
I don't think that they would purposely do that to a white woman. And it's I feel like it's always a black woman who is suffering at the hands of a black man on these shows and treating her poorly and having all of these like really disgusting mentalities, and I'm just like, no more.
No more, not. We don't have to sign up for that. We don't.
We don't have to, we don't, and their due. I could not agree with everything that you laid out. And they're doing it for money because it is affected, yes, and they will. They will keep doing it as long as we can. If we keep rewarding them with our eyeballs and our ear holes, they're gonna keep doing it, and so we need to break that loop by retraining them.
I don't want to see this. I don't want you to make money from this.
They're only gonna stop when it stops being financially incentivized for them to do it, and that kind of starts on us. I really had a healthy relationship with a lot of online spaces and doing a little bit of work of being like, yeah, I need to just divest from this. It's only making me upset. There's I'm training my algorithms and I want to engage with content like this. We already know that these algorithms are more likely to show us stuff that makes.
Us angry and have big emotional reactions.
I have people in my life to make me angry and give me big emotional reactions. Okaying Mark Zuckerberg to do, but I don't even know him. We were talking about the future generation one of my nephews recently. He was just taking these little digs and I said, hey, all right, what's wrong with everybody?
Enough?
He was like, ah, we rage baited her. And I was like, oh, first of all, I'm not even mad yet. You haven't even seen me mad. But I also was like, is this what the kids are going for?
You know?
Like, is this the desire?
Because we're rewarding the anger in the outrage because they want to see that. And I'm like, how do we correct these things?
But that's what I mean it Depending on your nephew's age, that's that could be what he is seeing. I bet I bet content like that probably is a part of his media diet. I remember seeing some video of a social studies teacher and she was talking to her class, and she was trying to explain to her class that enslaved black people during slavery did not get paid.
And the kids are like, what are you talking about? Day got paid?
And one of the kids, so none of the kids believe her, which is already a problem, but one of the more vocal kids is like, debate me, debate me about it. And I really thought, this is not Yeah, this is what I think young people are internalizing as discourse is debating and whether or not you can make somebody flustered or make somebody have an emotional reaction, whether or not the objective fact that enslaved black people were
not paid is correct or not is irrelevant. If you feel like you can, you know, hit the broad strokes of what winning a debate about it looks like.
And I think.
That's really a lingering thought of the culture that I'm very concerned about, Like think about you were talking t about these videos where it's like we put one reasonable person at a table and surrounded or with moras, we're gonna scream at her for an hour.
Yes, that is what passes for discourse these days.
And I really think, you know, when we talk about things like media literacy and anti inellectualism, the way the Internet has amplified a completely wrong version of what discourse and debate and knowledge and being learned and being.
Curious looks like I think is a real problem.
Yes, absolutely, and I think part of it is because we are now highlighting contrarians as intellectuals when they're not. I'm like, just because you're saying the opposite of what everybody else is saying, does not mean you're an intellectual. Like you have not put any real thought into that. You just saying no, and that's not how that works. That does not make an intellectual. I need you to come with facts, figures, and you know, thing to stand on,
not just I want to be different. It's like, okay, we get it. You so different, But that's not an intellectual.
New position to take. It's just being amplified exactly exactly.
Bridget I think you've given us a lot to think about, and we want to thank you for doing that because you've helped us move through like how we got to where we are now. On the Internet, what the real threats are, and a reminder that the Internet isn't shaped without us. We with the pressure of what we choose to engage, what we choose to give our attention, we are able to push back and say no, we don't
want this or we don't want it this way. And so I think you've shared quite a bit for us, and I want to know if there are any parting thoughts you'd like to share with our audience. So, first of all, it has been a blast you all this show and the platform that you've built, and it's so important and so valuable and also so freaking fun and accessible,
and I'm just happy to be here. I'm just very interested in talking about the inner of the Internet and technology and social media and identity, particularly the ways that marginalized people, people who are so often left out of the conversation do show up in very real ways and technology and online the sort of the bad and the good, the you.
Know, the whole, the whole you know shebang of what that looks like. I host a few podcasts. One is called There Are No Girls on the Internet. I also host Mozilla Foundation's podcast about ethics and AI called IRL Yeah, I'm just really interested in how we show up online.
And I would say if there's one.
Parting word, it's that it matters how and whether we are able to show up online.
I love the Internet.
The Internet is so important to me, not just because it's where I grew up and where I spend a lot of my time, but because I think it is a indicator of the health and well being of so many things, of our democracy, of our civic life, our civic world. And so if everybody is not able to show up equitably on our online platforms and tech landscape, we will never have the equitable representative democracy that we all deserve. And so care about the internet. Be a
good steward of the Internet. Show up on the Internet. And yeah, you could check out my podcast if that resonates.
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs. Podcast CT is on X and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho, and you can find Zakiya at z said so.
Dope Labs is a production of Lmanada Media.
Our supervising producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is Issara Asevez. Dope Labs is sound, designed, edited and mixed by James Farber. Limanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie dan Singer. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Katrina Norvil.
Marketing lead is Alison Kanter.
Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and ol Like suji Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs is executive produced by us T T Show, Dia and Zakiah Watki