I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and this is Dope Labs. Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
Okay, t T.
Think back, how many times have you heard somebody say, Oh, she's probably just on her period?
Like that explains everything.
Too many times? And I hate it. I really hate it, because, yeah, periods. People use periods as an excuse for every mood, every craving, and every decision. And folks say things like, oh, a woman shouldn't be president because she has the nuclear codes and she was star war and all.
These things like that. It's very annoying to me. Hey not on my watch.
What's wild about all of that is that a lot of people never really learned the full picture.
You know.
I think probably middle school is when we get the basics. You know, bleeding cramps, paths, and champs. That's it, that's it, period. But what we don't learn is how cycles affect your energy and your focus and even sometimes the way your brain works.
I mean, so, whether you have a cycle, or you know someone that does, or just want to understand the science behind it all, this episode is for you.
So let's jump into the recitation. What do we know?
Well, I know that most people with the uterus have periods, and I don't care what you say, periods.
Yes, amen, amen, amen.
And we know that there's a cycle that is about a month and that our hormone levels fluctuate. We also know that a lot of people don't know what's going on at the chemical level or molecular lesson.
This is with I am people. I have no clue. Okay, well, then what do we want to know?
I want to know a lot of things. I want to know one why it's so hard for folks to talk about periods. You would think that with so many people who have periods every single month, that this would be something that we would all feel comfortable with.
Yeah, but we still had in tampons. That's the problem. And I don't know why.
You know, it's like one end of the extreme or the other we don't talk about periods at all, or people like free bleeding, let it be all over your pants.
No, I think there's something. Okay, there is a middle ground.
Okay, Yeah, I want to see more there, more clustering there.
I want to know the hormones that are at play the key. I know you know bodily things are your wheelhouse, but we've talked about it, so I won't say I don't understand at all, because you have trained me up, friend, But I just want to understand more about the fluctuations and like how all of this works.
And I think even just knowing generally what the hormones are doesn't answer the question about how they are regulated and how that's linked to like PMS and other menstrual conditions.
So I I want to know.
See all of those puzzle pieces together, yes, and I want to know if there's anything that we can do to have these periods go go easy on us, go.
Is sinking? Where's the deal? So we don't have any more of that, let's jump into the recitation.
We brought in doctor Sarah Hill. She's a researcher who spent years studying the science of periods and hormones, and she's here to give us the real story.
I'm doctor Sarah Hill, and I'm a research psychologist and author of This is Your Brain on birth control and my new book, The Period Brain.
I loved the way the books started, and so that's where I want our conversation is start with addressing the elephant in the room and asking you, why does talking about our periods make us so uncomfortable.
I think that for a really long time, women were made to feel like lesser, like sort of inferior versions of men because we have hormone cycle. And so I think it makes everybody get a little bit queasy if we start talking too much about the way that women's hormones can affect the way that they experience the world, just because it feels like something that could be used against us.
And you know, and there's and I understand that fear.
I mean, it's like, this is a history of women, right, It's like anytime we talk about anything that makes us different from men, that can be turned on its head. But the truth of the matter is that there's no truth to that being a sign of weakness or problematic.
So even though all of us have been led to believe that the fact that women have two primary sex hormones, estrogen and progesterone instead of one like testosterone, that there's something wrong with that, right, and that that means that you're flaky and you can't be depended on because you know, you're just whimsical and capricious. That's just simply not true. It's like our hormones cycle, and so they're cyclical, but
they're not unpredictable. And one thing that I always tell people is like, if you tell me a woman's age, and you tell me I made the first day of her last menstrual cycle, I can tell you with an alarming degree of certainty what's happening with her sex hormones, right, And the same isn't true for men because men's hormone, their primary sex hormone, testosterone, is actually a little bit capricious, and it responds to anything like if a man sees
a beautiful woman, his testosterone goes up. If he loses an argument with a friend, or he loses a competition, his testosterone goes down. If his favorite sports team wins.
It goes up.
If his favorite sports team loses, it goes down. And there's even been research showing that men's testosterone changes if they see a gun, right, So if men see a gun, their tesosterone goes up. I mean, so it's like, whose hormone is flighty and capricious?
Now?
And so I think that there's a tendency to get a little uncomfortable about these things. But I think that we need to stop stigmatizing these conversations because so many women aren't ever taught anything about what they're you know, they're like, oh, okay, you can get a period, and you know, here's some you know, menstrual products, and then it's just like right, you know, that's the end of the conversation. But there's no larger conversation about, Okay, like
why is it that we have these cycles? What do the changes in hormones do in terms of changing the way that we think and feel, experience the world our sexual desire or appetites or calorie needs, Like we're not taught at any of that. Like I had to get a PhD To learn that stuff, you know, and it was just crazy. You know, you shouldn't have to go to grad school to learn your body.
Doctor Hill, I want to pause and just stop for a moment to talk about that complexity right now. What you just said is recyclical, and that's been used against us in mainstream media and in conversation around women, because when I was thinking about it as you were talking, everything we rely on is cyclical, the day and night cyclical cyclical, all the calendar cyclical.
Okay, also cyclical.
Okay, Yeah, that's not reacting, like right, So I'm just saying, let's all pay attention and reading is fundamental when we think about the complexity in how the sexes are different. I think in science and research, sometimes that's been flatten and like people don't look at those differences. I want you to talk a little bit about how different industries, particularly the medical industry, feed into that or why they may even want it to be that way.
Yeah, there is this tendency and people kind of talk about it with medicine. You know, you hear about this term like bikini medicine, which is just this idea that doctors assume that men and women are essentially interchangeable except for the parts of the body that can be covered by a bikini. Right, And so it's this idea that women's hearts and men's hearts are the same, women's lungs and men's lungs are the same, women's brains and men's brains are the same, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But there's a growing body of research in all of these different fields of science that support the idea that this is not true, right, and that there's sex differentiation in everything is you know, even these little tiny details of our body, like the way that our bodies like to deal with bacteria.
Right.
Women's immune systems tend to deal with bacterial threats using ones of mechanisms. Men's bodies tend to deal with bacterial threats using a different set of mechanisms, right. And the reason that this is the case is just that women's bodies are wired for pregnancy and reproduction. And this is true whether we want to have babies or not. It's
like our bodies were built for that. And what that means is that our body had to come up with a whole bunch of workarounds from everything from our circulatory system tor metabolism to our immune system to be able to support another human being living inside of our body, you know, alien type form, you know, where it's like we had to our body had to figure out what to do with all that, and that's created for all of these different systems workarounds that they've had to do.
And part of the sort of legacy of all of that is that you get sex differentiation in all of these different types of systems. And unfortunately this is inconvenient for science, right because scientists would like to just be able to collect data on a handful of people, right, Men a little bit, some men's and women no different and not have to worry about testing for sex different right, because that means that they have to if they're going to test for sex differences, they have to collect twice
as much data. And then with women, because they have cycling hormones, they've got to deal with that. I think it was like nineteen ninety three when the National Institutes of Health required science researchers to include women in biomedical research. And the way that researchers handled that wasn't by this is wonderful opportunity to learn about women. Like let's collect data on equal numbers of men and women and look
for sex differentiation. And since women have these cycling hormones, let's measure them at different cycle phases to see whether they respond to treatment differently depending on what's going on with their hormones. No, Instead, what scientists said, like, oh, shoot, okay, we have to include women in research, and they've got these pesky hormones that cycle. So here's an idea. Let's just include some women in our research, right, not enough
to actually test for sex differences. And for studying humans, let's only study them when hormones are really low, so in the early phases of the menstrual cycle. So that way we don't have to worry about their hormones interfering with the results.
Which is so crazy, because it's crazy, it's.
Crazy, I know, it's so a few days.
So they study women in this period of five days, you know, and in non human animals. At anytime there's a like a medical intervention that's new, like a new drug or a new therapy or new treatment, it always has to go through this pre clinical process first, where it's tested usually on mice and rats. And the way that they do this pre clinical work to include females, what they do to manage their hormonal variation is that they just pull their ovaries out, and so they're testing
on females with no sex hormones. And so they're like, look at us, we're including females and research without recognizing the fact that women are inherently hormonal, right, It's like we are, like our hormones are part of who we are, and as a hormone cycle that changes the way that every thing acts in the body, and then then just ignoring it, removing that is the source of things.
Wow.
So it allows us to include women as research subjects in science, but it doesn't teach us anything about women because we're studying them in this.
Little tiny corner of their.
Cycle when hormones are low, and we know very little about them when they're in states when hormones are high.
Let's talk about hormones because that is that is the piaced resistance, and this whole thing is our hormones. Can you explain the period cycle from start to finish because I feel like I just learned what the lutele phase was like six months ago on TikTok, right, and somebody told me about it, and I was like, do we all have that?
Yeah? That's so funny, Like is it a just.
I was like, I've never heard of this, So can you tell us what's happening hormonally through those different stages and talk about estrogen versus progestion.
Absolutely, absolutely the menstrual cycle, Like the day you get your period is the first day of your cycle, and when you get your period, hormone levels are at their lowest in the cycle. So even though women are oftentimes given a hard time about being.
Hormonal, you know when they're on their period.
This is actually when we release hormonal and when the brain notices that hormone levels are low, it will stimulate the ovaries through the pituitary land. So it'll tell the pituitary gland, stimulate the ovaries and let's start some egg development, because it knows that if hormone levels are low, it means that they're not pregnant and it's time to start maturing egg follicles, so that way they can prepare for ovulation.
And the ovaries then will start maturing egg follicles. And as these follicles begin to develop, they actually start releasing estrogen, and so this is one of the primary ways that the female body produces estrogen or estrodile from egg development. So after a few days of these egg follicles starting to mature, one will take over. It becomes it's known as the dominant follicle, which ever one is like growing the fastest and most robust. It's sort of the chosen one,
and then it continues to grow. The others dissolve back into the body. And this is going to be the egg that's going to be released at ovulation. Right now, this egg is maturing and maturing and maturing. Estrogen levels are rising and rising and rising, and then you're getting to the period of ovulation. And ovulation is of course when an egg is released, and during this time estrogen
levels are super high. So estrogen levels peak and you ovulate, and the period about five days prior to ovulation and then within twenty four hours of ovulation itself, this is the period in the cycle that's known as the fertile window, and this is when sex can lead to conception. And so this is a time when women's bodies are very
much oriented towards all things attraction and sex. Right, so, estrogen we can think about these first fourteen days of the cycle as being all about getting all of the pieces in place for sex to lead to conception. I mean, it's all oriented toward attraction and sex. And so women tend to feel sexier in this estrogenic phase of the cycle. They tend to have more sex, they sound sexier, they
smell sexier, they move sexier. They're better able to discriminate between high and low quality mates because their sensory neurons are super sensitive to these fine tune differences between men.
Okay, so the first day of your period is day one, and your hormones are at their lowest. Then your body starts prepping for possible pregnancy, whether you want it or not, and things start to get a little sexy. That's the first fourteen days. What about the rest of the month.
Now, that empty egg follicle actually becomes a temporary endocrine structure that lasts about two weeks, and it releases women's second primary sex hormone, which is progesterone. This is that
luteal phase, right, that so few people know about. And this is the last two weeks of your cycle before your next period begins, And this is your body is actually shifting during this time from a state where you were optimized for sex and attraction, and it's shifting you into a state that is optimized for implantation of an embryo and pregnancy.
Right.
And so these are two totally different sets of activities. The things that your body needs to do to attract a mate are very different than the things that your body needs to do to maintain a pregnancy. And that's why we have two primary sex hormones instead of one is that our bodies have to do two things to reproduce, and the result of these hormonal changes there again, they're sort of orienting you toward this goal that has to
do with the reproductive process. And so it's generally instead of being a time when women experience increase sexual desire and they're feeling really sexy, instead women feel not sexy. Their libido tends to decrease, and any sex they have is less about and that they desire tends to be less about a need to like scratch a sexual itch, and tends to be more about like the need to connect. So the meaning of sex changes because this is a period in the cycle when sex cannot lead to conception.
I mean, you can't get pregnant from sex you have during the last two weeks of the cycle, and so it serves a totally different function during that time than it does during the first. And it's also a time when our because our body is remodeling itself and getting ready for the possibility of pregnancy, our metabolism increases, our calorie needs increase during the second two weeks of the cycle, and of course we aren't ever told about that, and
so women feel really hungry. No, no, So we feel hungry and then we're like, why am I so hungry? And then we develop this bad relationship with ourselves where we think that we have no self control because you know, look at me, and you know eating all my sons Halloween candy and just a hypothetical example gives me, James,
it's me, it was me. And as we have these changes where our calorie needs increase, our respiration rate increases, our heart rate increases, we become more sensitive to threat detection.
So any sign that there might be something wrong with the relationship that we have, either with our extended village or with our partners become more noticeable and salient to us, because again, we're all about trying to protect ourselves and protect the possibility of an embryo, and so we're vulnerable to threats, and our the threat detection areas of our brain become more interconnected with other areas of our brain and make it more aware of threats. We tend to
be more inward facing. We don't want as much stimulation because our body is doing a lot of work and it's metabolically expensive. We're sleepier, and so there's this whole shift. You know, this whole shift is our bodies preparing for
the possibility of implantation and pregnancy. And the reason that so many women feel so terrible during the last two weeks of the cycle is because a we're never told about any of this, right, so we have no idea what's going on, and it's like, I just feel really sensitive, and then we blow up at our partner, right because we're feeling like everything is a problem because it seems like a threat because we're not told, like, hey, your
brain is literally more interconnected with the threat areas, and just so you know, you'd be alarm bells might be sounding more easily than they do in different parts of the cycle, and having awareness of that is like so helpful in terms of communicating within a relationship.
We've been grading ourselves against the wrong rubric.
You said it perfectly, and.
So then we're constantly like, why am I failing? Why am I failing? I'm curious if you could talk a little bit more about when there are differences in how your cycle and hormones behave, particularly like with PCOS.
If you're somebody who has things like PCOS, it means so generally women with pcos have high levels of androgens, so they have higher levels of testosterone than women who do not, and this can interfere with the obvia and so if you're not ovulating again, ovulation is the primary way that our body produces hormones, and so that generally can
lead to erratic hormonal patterns. And so, for example, some women with PCOS, their body will start to stimulate egg follicles like preparing, and I think that's part of how the name PCOS right, it's the polycystic ovarian, So it's like you're creating these little egg follicles that are starting to simulate. Nothing ever, really in these contexts comes out to fruition, and so you get estrogen. But then because an egg never matures and is released, you don't get progesterone.
And having an imbalance of your hormones in this way can lead people to feel kind of awful because even though estrogen is a lot of fun and short little bursts and it makes women feel sexy and alive and yes, Lara Bryden, who's a naturopathic doctor, she described it best where she said, it's like that eccentric friend of yours who's like so much fun for like two days or like a week, but then afterward you're just like, enough.
Yes, we don't want to keep the party going, we need to take a nap.
It's like that's enough.
No, I don't want to watch the sun rise. No, I don't want to lay in the grass. Can we please?
That's because I asked TT to stay up late and watch the sun rise so we couldn't see it.
Oh there was a building glow.
No. No, oh, my gosh, that's so funny.
You touched on PMS a little bit, which you know occurs in the two weeks before we start our period. But not all PMS is created equal. I feel like, as I age, it's agent Okay, my PMS is.
An old, older, angry lady.
Now can you talk to us about pre menstrual syndrome or PMS.
Yeah, so, PMS, it turns out, is really nothing more than a catch all category that has been created for experiences that women have in the luteal phase, some of which are very normal. Right, So for example, being hungry, you know, especially if you're not if you're being told, oh, well, you need to eat two thousand calories of the day without realizing that in the luteal phase, you might need
twenty two hundred calories a day. So some of it is just things that we're experiencing because we've been given bad advice or as you said, Zakia loved the idea being graded on the wrong rubric. Some of it is those experiences. Others are things that are happening on purpose, but we haven't been given a language for so for example, having the downshift in libido, or having a downshift in energy, or having increased threat detection ability, so having what can
turn into anxiety. So some of that stuff is stuff that's happening on purpose. Some of it is stuff that is going sideways because we're great at using the wrong rubric for our bodies and so we're creating disorder. And then some of it is actual problems that we're having because we're really sensitive to the hormonal changes.
So PMS sort of run of the mill.
PMS covers about everything, and in fact, there was a research review that was done talking about the symptoms of PMS and they noted that there's been more than eighty five different symptoms.
Okay, if you're breathing, you have pmists.
Yeah, well exactly, it's like it's like, I mean, the idea that these experiences that we have and the reason the second half of the cycle is the one that women get the hardest hit on in terms of these hormonal sensitivities is because the changes that happen in the second half of the cycle are just ginormous relative to
what's going on in the first half. Progesterone actually rises and falls at levels that are ten times higher than that of estrogen, and so that takes a lot of dexterity on the part of the cells in our body to be able to quickly adapt, because the body is sensitive to sex hormones and as they change, they have to change what they're doing to adjust to Okay, is there a lot of hormone here or is there not
a lot of hormone here? And so you'll have receptors of your cells up regulate and down regulate depending on
how much there is. And unfortunately, we live in an environment where people don't have a lot of resilience to hormonal changes just because things like inflammation and stress and the inflammation that it tends to create also erode at our cellular plasticity, and this is stuff that can make our experiences across the cycle worse, right, And so we do tend to see that people who are in better health in general, so who do things like have a community of people that they can help rely on for
stress management, who eat whole foods, get enough sunlight, get enough sleep, get regular exercise, they tend to have smoother experiences across the cycle than people who don't and who have more chronic inflammatory types of conditions, we tend to see worse PMS.
Okay, so PMS is everything that happens when you have your period, got it, And this is function of our bodies reacting to the rising and following estrogen and progesterone. But what about pre mistral dyspork disorder or PMDD, because I've heard about that one too.
PMDD it's kind of like you take all of that and then you imagine the worst, ugliest form of it.
Right.
So PMDD is just it's a really heartbreaking condition. And it's heartbreaking because for many of these women, they go into the second half of the cycle and as progesterone levels are increasing, it's like they just start to feel just utterly hopeless. And so there's a tendency to have these extreme mood changes, and one of the defining characteristics of women who have pmdd is that many of them wish that they could just end their own life to
make the suffering stop because they feel so awful. For many of these women, this goes on for the entire last two weeks of the cycle, and then they get their period and they feel better. But then as soon as you know they're feeling good again, they know what's coming,
you know, they know what's going to happen again. In terms of the treatment options, and I'm sure that this is going to absolutely shock you, but there isn't a lot of research, and I know it's just shocking into like what the causes of PMDDR and like what different types of treatments are currently. The ones that doctors use most frequently are the birth control pill, because this of course prevents you from ovulating, and if you don't ovulate and don't have a cycle, then you're going to have
these flatlined hormones. And if you're somebody who's really sensitive to hormonal changes, like women with pmdd R, then this can be helpful to them. Antidepressants are another one that are frequently given what we know less about is like what the root cause is of this deep sensitivity that would allow women to be able to find relief using
something that to them would feel more natural. And there are some studies that have been done looking at cognitive behavioral therapy and it's actually found to be fairly affective in terms of helping minimize women's symptoms.
But that's just the emotional part of it, right, there's real physical pain. So we just interviewed a neuroscientist who studies pain, and a lot of what she said really overlaps nicely in ties with what you're telling us. And she talked about like the expectation of pain, so if you've had pain before, you know it might be coming again. So I can almost imagine PMDD as a part of like chronic pain, Like if you're having these really awful symptoms like clockwork, this is going to happen, and there
aren't many like treatment options. I'm curious though, One thing that you said is there is this sensitivity to hormonal changes. And I understand evolutionarily that we are primed for reproduction. All species basically are, yes, but we've had some changes, and I'm curious about some of the environmental factors are some of these new things that are pushing us or playing on some of that sensitivity or making us more sensitive, And how we can kind of build some resilience to it. Is it possible?
One hundred percent, It is possible.
I think that just doing things that help increase your resilience to these changes, even if you have PMDD, it might not totally solve the problem, but it will definitely help take the edge off. And as you noted, there are a lot of these environmental mismatches that are responsible
for the erosion in our cellular plasticity. And for example, eating processed foods is something that unfortunately is very much a mainstay culturally, and this increases inflammatory activity in the body, and it also erodes at the diversity of our gut bacteria. And all of these things help maintain our flexibility and our cellular plasticity and our resilience to hormonal changes. Even just like cleaning up your diet a little bit is helpful.
Other changes you can make. One of my favorites, because it's so easy to do, is getting morning sunlight to help set your circadian rhythms. And so for me, because I'm somebody who's had bad sleep, and sleep plays a profound role in your ability to sort of manage inflammatory activity because getting not enough sleep is incredibly inflammatory in the body, and people don't really appreciate the role that it plays. Also understanding that stress management is like so huge.
It's like that there's so many industries that would disappear if women actually prioritize themselves instead of other people.
T T. You heard it.
A couple of weeks ago, we say we were going to start doing our fifteen minute walks. I'm just saying, your cycle will thank me.
I think that we need.
Yes, you should have a morning cycle support ten minute walk club. I think that's awesome, and I mean honestly, and even though it's like ten that helps. I think that sometimes people are like, oh my gosh, like it feels overwhelming, you know what I mean, where they're like, oh, I've run a marathon and like lift weights ten times a week and mainline protein and it's really not that, you know, you don't need These little steps really make a difference.
Atomic habits.
Atomic habits exactly, habit stacking. I'm a huge fan.
So really what I'm hearing is is all the roads lead back to education. Are you feeling hopeful that in school systems they'll be learning more about how bodies function, regardless of sex or gender.
I sure hope.
So imagine how much better the world would be, I mean, and for men too, right if we actually understood here's the foods that nourish your body, here's ways to help promote resilience to stress, here is how your hormones work. And so, I mean, it's just, you know, I really think that we need to revisit curricula in schools, and I think one of those things would be understanding our bodies, because it is completely absurd that I had to get
a PhD to learn about my body. And I mean, it's also sort that so many women are having to do this on social media. It's like we're trusting social media to educate. We give the sexual education to our teenagers, and it's cuckoos.
Like this person just did a dance, but they're gonna tell me that's so funny.
I had to get a TikTok account because of course, you know, you have to be on social when you're a public figure. And my son was like, you, what are you going to do? Do a dance about birth control?
Maybe are you going to dance with me? Asked the camera.
Yeah, that's a better question I should have had.
That's that's the next question, be like, yeah, we need to create a birth control dance and I would.
Love for you to choreograph.
Yes.
What is one thing other than getting your book that you think every person that has a period should know about their body?
It would be learn who you are? Right, so, learn how your hormones affect who you are. Share it with
a friend, Educate your partner. I think that there's so much especially in relationships, like it's romantic relationships, where there's so much ground for miscommunication just because and especially when talking about a heterosexual couple where you have a man and a woman and women has cycles and the man does out of cycles, and there's just each one assumes that the other one has a brain that works like their brain does, and being able to communicate about and
actually have a language, because I think a lot of times women know there's something happening, they don't have a language to describe it, and so having a language to describe it, which is one of the big reasons that I wrote this book was I wanted women to understand how they work, and then also to have a language to describe it so that way they can have better
communication with their partners. When I think that understanding your own body and being able to communicate that information to a partner is I think that it's like there's no greater form of intimacy.
I love this episode and this book is so good. I learned so much every chapter. I was like, I was texting people like.
Did you know? Did you know?
And talking to Jimmy like, hey, did you know that this is this? Of course he don't know. Ment Okay, some of y'all don't know really anything. But I feel like this should be required reading for everyone, no matter your gender.
You know. I think that's really true.
And I think if you want to write any kind of book, any kind of thing with characters where it's like oh this, If you want to write anything about a period about anybody, read this verse. Okay, read this verse before you make your character sit on the couch eating ice cream and say she's so lonely and depressed but it's her period. I'm tired of that truck ty.
Right.
We are out here existing and living and doing the things that we got to do, even on our periods, and yes, things are fluctuating, but things are fluctuating for everybody, no matter what your sex is, and for the male sex it seems like it's fluctuating.
A lot more.
And so we really need to be talking about y'all the way that y'all talk about us.
OO want to run yeall into the ground book Man.
You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope Labs podcast.
Tt is on X and Instagram at d R Underscore T.
S h O, and you can find Zakiya at Z said So.
Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media. Our supervising producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is Issara Acevez. Dope Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed by James Farber. Lamanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and Production is Jackie Danziger. Executive producer from iHeart podcast is Katrina Norvil.
Marketing lead is Alison Canter.
Original music composed and produced by Takayasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs is executive produced by us T T Show Dia and Zakiyah Wattie.
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