Lab 047: All (Immune) Systems Go

If you've been tuning into our New Year series, you know we're talking about making the best version of you. And in our sleep episode last week, we talked about how important sleep was for immunity. Yes, we did.

Sleep is so important to so many aspects of our overall health, but one of the things that stood out the most to me was how it impacts our immune system, which is wild.

Yes, And you know, over the past couple of years, I feel like the iword immunity has been everywhere. Yes, but do we really know what it is? No, we don't. It's clear.

I've seen the tweets.

Okay, we're feeling that word around as if it means a thousand different things, but I know that it means something very specific.

Well, you're in luck. That's what we're talking about all this left, let's get into it. I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and from Spotify.

This is Dope Labs.

Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science, pop culture, and a healthy dost of friendship. This week, we're talking all about the immune system. Specifically, we really wanted to know more about how it works and what we can do to make it stronger.

Yes, it's peak cold and flu season. And I've seen a lot of you sharing elderberry syrup, ginger lemon emergency, all of that on your IG stories. You're telling us all about your immune system hacks and boosters. So this lab is really for you. We're going to get into what the immune system is and how it works. So let's get into the recipation.

So before we say what do we know? What I know what Tekia knows. It's two very different things. To be clear, I feel like I know next to nothing about the immune system and how it works. I feel like I know very very basic things that I think most people know, like your immune system is important and having a good immune system will help you. But that's kind of where it stops for me.

Well that's okay, because I'm going to help you ask some other questions like where exactly is immune system in the body, how does it work, what happens if it's not working or if it's overworking, what's going on there? And then I think the question we both have TT is about all the hacks we see about strengthening and boosting and enhancing the immune system.

Yes, some of it just seems like made up stuff like I'm just like, who told you that?

Who told you that?

Like, oh, chew on your big toenail for three minutes and then spit it out and spin round like I don't know.

Yeah, I wouldn' chew on it, but if you do, happy that you want it, definitely spit it out all right. That makes me feel like we are ready for the dissection. You're ready, CC, I'm ready.

Hold my hand. Friend.

Our guest for today's lab is doctor Piel Gupta.

My name is doctor Pyle Gupta. I am an adult and pediatric allergy and asthma specialists and also a nominologist. And I live and work in New York City.

Okay, for me, let's start with the basics. What is the immune system?

Our immune system is our body's way of protecting us from foreign invaders. And what I mean by foreign invaders are things like viruses, like bacteria, like fungi and even cancers.

Okay, so these are all the things we definitely don't want in our bodies.

So if we zoom out, we can think about the body. It's this single tube from the mouth to the booty basically, and your skin is wrapping all of that and keeping everything in a closed system. So your skin is like your protective barrier, right, Our skin is a physical barrier to those foreign invaders and particles.

You know, you gotta stay moisturized. You gotta put lotion on those elbows. Yes, moisturized skin is soft and supple and plump. But not moisturized skin or dry skin cracks and bleeds and things like that.

All right, we have our protective barrier of skin protecting everything inside. If anything penetrates that barrier, it's then facing our immune system. And the immune system can be split into two parts, the innate immune system and the adaptive or acquired immune system.

So innate being the immune system that you are born with.

Yes, and that's not unique to us. So if we look at it, all animals have an innate immune system, and so do plants.

Ooh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, I need to treat my snake plant better. There it's currently three leaves sitting on the floor.

Okay.

So there's our skin, which provides a physical barrier. Then there's the innate and acquired immune systems. So let's talk about the innate immune system first.

And so then innate immune systems are first line of deference, and this line of defense or this army reacts to fight infection quickly.

The innate immune system is non specific, so it just says, invader, respond right. It doesn't know who you are. It just knows that it is not right.

That's like your house security system when you come in the door.

It's like, hey, I don't know who you are.

Bepep.

You may be the owner, you might not be. Yes, but you better put it in the security code or there's gonna.

Be some problems.

Yes, you know. So let's say that system is not very specific. It's just a strong first response. Our second line of defense is the acquired immune system. So if we were to compare these things, the innate immune system is not specific. Acquired is specific. The innate immune system is permanent and the response is immediate. For the fired immune system is transient. It's not always permanent, and the response is not immediate, but it is specific and is coming right for you, is right on time.

So the acquired immune system is something that your body builds over time, and that's based off of socio physical factors.

That's a really good question. You begin building your acquired immune system from being a fetus right across the placenta. The mom is giving you some immunity right there, thanks mommy.

When a baby is first born, they're not ready to fight every infection. They are fragile, and our immune systems when we're born aren't where we want them to be.

Then, even thinking about what happens. As soon as you're born, you have been inside this other closed system, so you don't have any bacteria. You know, how we talk about the microbiome on the skin and how we talk about the bacteria that's part of our personal environment. You acquire that as you pass through the birth and canal, or if you are delivered by c section, you acquire that from that delivery process, and then you know that skin

So your adaptive immune system starts developing from the jump through the birth canal, skin to skin all those germs getting into your tiny baby body are what your body needs to adapt to the outside world.

And so when you think about when a baby t t is always sick, you know, like you've seen your nieces and nephew with those running noses, Yes, that is them being exposed to these foreign particles and pathogens, and their immune systems are beginning to recognize these things and

And then as we get older, we get exposed to the environment, which also exposes our body to foreign particles, foreign substances, and our body starts to recognize what is normal what is abnormal, and then the immune system slowly starts to grow.

So our immune system generally peaks between puberty and young adulthood and starts to decline around the age of sixty.

That's why older individuals we have to be extra careful, just like we are with babies, because they are more susceptible to.

We talked about this in our Protect Your Net episode. Really young babies in infants, so under six or seven months, can't get a flu shot, so everybody around them gets a flu shot to kind of cocoon them and to keep themselves from passing something on to the baby. Similarly, older adults, so over sixty five, they also have a week immune system, but their immune system can handle a

So now we know what the immune system is. We know that there's some that is innate, so that stuff that you're born with, and then we know that there's some aspects of our immune system that we acquire over time based on exposure. But where is all of this happening? Is there like an immune system Oregon?

Is it near? My pancreas was just.

One of the one of the only organs I remember from biology, like creas kid.

Me, you're doing good, You're doing good. Stomach, Well, basically it's all over. It's not in any one place, so in your bones. And I'm not just talking about one bone, all your bones. Inside there's bone marrow, which is this like spongy kind of stuff. That is the place where lymphocytes are made. Lymphocytes are also maturing in the thymus, which is if you think about like where your neck is that butterfly organ over your neck, that's your thyroid

Really, our tonsils are spleen. What was the other one, the lymph nodes, lymph nodes spleen.

Okay, you're getting it.

I'm following. I'm following.

Some of the fighters in this army are things like macrifages, basa phylls, dendritic cells, or neutrophils, so these are all fancy names for cells in our body that do different things to get rid of the bacteria or viruses or other foreign invaders. Macrifages are kind of like these big cells that kind of engulf what i've foreign particle. They see the chemicals inside of the macrophage just eat up whatever they see, and so that's kind of what a

Those cell types and neutrophills, basofyls, mass cells, dendritic cells, those are all part of our innate immune system, and so tt like you mentioned, if things slip past our innate immune system, they move on to our second line of defense, which is our acquired immune system.

The acquired immune system uses lymphocytes, so those are cells that circulate in the blood and are made up of T cells and B cells to target specific pathogens.

These cells take longer to develop because their behaviors evolve from learned experiences, but they tend to live longer than innate cells, and the adaptive immune cells remember foreign invaders after their first encounter and then fight them off the next time more easily. So this is really the fundamental concept and premise for how vaccines work.

For example, yes, remember in the HIV episodes with doctor Christine Daniels, we talked about creating that mugshot, and so your immune system is like I already know who you are and I know what to do.

Uh huh.

That's basically what we're doing when we expose our bodies to vaccines, speeding up that learning process.

So, now that we understand how the immune system works, what are some signs we can look for to know that it's working.

One of the most common misconceptions is that if you get quote unquote sick, so like if your nose is running, or if you are achey, or if you have a fever, that your immune system isn't working. But that's actually a sign that it is. Let's take lymph nodes for example.

Lymph Nodes are tissues that are found all over our bodies, and lymph nodes produce white blood cells, and white blood cells help fight off infection.

Lymph Nodes can be found underneath our neck, under our arms, near our grain, and literally all over.

When we actually get sick, then our lymph nodes go into action, and that's when they get inflamed, and that's when they get bigger. That's evidence that your body is doing something to fight off.

And so when we think about people's response to the COVID vaccine and boosters, or even the flu shot, sore arms, fatigue, all of that is just a sign that your immune system is working.

You know that the flu shot makes me hurl every time I get it. I didn't know that, girl, it happened at your house in North Carolina.

Oh the flu.

Shot did that to you, haven't. You just had a different kind of responding.

Paint the picture for you. Okay. I was as a kid's parents' house.

Oh, at my parents' house.

Yes.

We were hitting golf balls with her dad, and I had just gotten a flu shot like two days before. It was my very first flu shot, so I didn't know nothing was gonna happen to me. He put lamb on the grill. We was eating good, okay, hitting golf balls. Her dad is launching those golf balls into the stratosphere. And then all of a sudden, I'm like, something is not right. I start to feel lightheaded, and then I say I'm about to throw up.

I run to the bathroom. I felt awful.

Because we had so much good food that i'll I was like, I really hope he doesn't think it was his food, because I know it's not his food.

I don't know what's wrong with me.

But then I was like, I have to go home, and so I drove back to Dorn and then proceeded to vomit my life away for the next two days.

And does this happen every time you get a flu shot?

Not that extreme.

So that was my very first flu shot, So it makes sense based on what you and doctor Gupta have been saying about the immune system. My first experience with the flu shot, I had a really strong reaction because my body's like, okay, is how do we get rid of this?

What is this?

This is something new that we've never seen before. But now every time I get the flu shot since then, I'll get supernaxous. Sometimes I'll throw up. But the last time I got it, I just felt a little queasy. And so mm hmm, I'm guessing this immune system is doing what it's supposed to do.

It's given what it's supposed to give.

Yeah, and if you don't have those symptoms, if you don't have that ak meester or you didn't really get sick. It doesn't mean their immune system wasn't working. It just means that you can feel your immune system working more than maybe somebody else.

Another example of the immune system working, Baby, you've seen me suffer from this is allergies. That's our immune system overreacting.

Listen, I have allergies, but I have never seen someone suffer like my friend.

Okay, you don't want to be outside with me without a Xytec and a flow Naze spray in nostril.

I've got to get my friend inside. She is perishing. Every time our.

Immune system all of a sudden looks at a dog protein or a cat protein, or you know, dust mighte and all of a sudden thinks that this is something that I need to react against, when in fact, it's not something that you need to react against. So it isn't like the tree because tree protein is actually good. It's good for our environment. We need more of it.

So when we think about how people are treating their allergies, a lot of people are taking antihistamines and things like this, and what they're doing is actually dampening their immune system. They're turning that reaction down so that they're not getting so much of the running nose and the inflammation. Histamines are chemicals involved in our immune system, and if you take benadrill or something like that for allergies, you'll see

Holding your immune system back home.

Me back. Yeah, Yes, that's exactly what it's like. And the nice thing is that it's specific to the allergens, so it doesn't mean that your immune system is impaired from protecting you against other things. So that's really nice to have that kind of specific targeting for allergies.

Okay, so let's take a break and when we come back, we'll talk all about what happened is when the immune system doesn't work and what we can do to strengthen our immune system.

We're back and we're talking about the immune system with doctor Piel Gupta. Now that we have a better understanding of what the immune system does and how it works, what happens if it's not working. So what we've learned is that there are some immune system disorders and they mostly have to do with the immune system operating out of balance, either underreacting or overreacting to a foreign invader. When the immune system is underreacting, it's called an immune deficiency.

So an immune deficiency is when our body isn't reacting to viruses, bacteria, fungi, And it can be from the cells, you know, all of these different cells, from a part of those cells not working properly, or that there aren't enough of those cells to help fight infection. So it can be either the function or it can be the amount.

And immune deficiency can be primary which means it was inherited at birth, or secondary which means it's not an innate disorder but something that is secondary to another condition such as cancer or AIDS, which stands for acquired immune deficiency syndrome, and those immune deficiencies can range in severity and treatment.

So in those situations, you know, those patients need extra boosters, they need more antibiotics, they need stronger antibiotics than other people.

So then what about the other side of the coin when our immune system is overreactive.

And then the overactive immune system is you know, things like autoimmune diseases, so you know where like thyroid dysfunction, lupus, rheumatrate, arthritis, things like that where our immune system might be acting against us. Then we get other issues where a lot of inflammation, a lot of the things that we use to fight infection and turn then causes problems in our body.

So some parts of our immune system we cannot change because it's just what we're born with, and so there's not much we can do to fix it. But there are aspects of our lives that do affect our immune system that we have some control over, like sleep. And we just finished talking about sleep in the last two labs, and what we know about sleep is that it is

But definitely for the immune system, we know that during sleep we're actually producing certain side of kinds that we need in order to fight infection. So cyto kinds are essentially just chemicals that then call other players into action.

If we don't produce those side of kinds, we're susceptible to all types of attacks on our immune system. So, like you said, TT, yes, sleep is key for a healthy immune system. But what are some of the other things you've seen people doing to increase their immune health?

Oh, my goodness, so many things.

I think you mentioned that elderberry, which yes, I had never heard of, right before COVID. Right before COVID I'd never heard of elderberry, but not everybody is, you know, injecting into their veins.

The other thing that I remember being big was celery juice. Do you remember when everybody was drinking all that celery juice?

Yes, and everybody is me. I was drinking celery juice for a little bit. I didn't know that then it's disgusting. That's why I was adding it into my juices that I was making at the time that had apple, cucumber, gender and things like that, and I was like, oh, celery, and I put the.

Celery in the thing. Celery.

Let me tell you, you'll know if they're celery in that juice that you're drinking, because it turns it to something pungent. You'll know if it's gross. Look at the ingredients they're celery in it.

When you think about those things, celery feels like the tuba, like you're praying a beautiful siphony with your juices, and if you put celery in there, it's like coming like, yeah, it's not right. But I wonder when I think about immune health and all of these things the stomach and the acids in our stomach, they're destroying things that we put in there, so is that really working? Can't we eat our way to better immune health?

But as far as nutrition goes and dyet and the immune system in general, having a health diet is going to allow you to have a healthy immune system and a healthy body. So I'll take, like, for example, vitamin C. Our bodies don't make vitamin C, right, but we need

But if you're eating any of those things, then I'm not saying anybody on this line is not eating those things, but some people might not be.

I do take a vitamin seapoof.

Well, that's a good way you are taking a supplement. So does that make a difference?

You know?

According to Harvard Health, the data on vitamin C is that it's only marginally beneficial when it comes to things like the common and when you see something like that where it says it's only marginally beneficial, that means that more than likely taking large amounts of vitamin C is maybe going to help you a little bit, but maybe not so.

Doctor Gupta is saying that at least for something like vitamin C, focusing on a healthy, balanced lifestyle is the most important thing and getting plenty of exercise and sleep as well. Those are the best things you can do to keep up a healthy immune system and best to focus on before you start adding supplements.

And then the other big, big, big factor for all of these supplements and things like that is the cost and the safety. So you know, even though it says quote unquote natural on something, if you're taking an enlarger doses because they're saying that these higher doses might be beneficial, well it could also be the opposite. It could also yield a side effect because anything in a higher concentration can also cause problems.

Well, just know, our bodies can't absorb all those vitamins and they really can end up as waste.

Something that my girlfriend just said the other day would which is super important and she's a physician. Also, is that Americans have the most expensive P in all of the world.

Ah literally liquid gold.

This is perfect because in next week's lab we are talking to doctor Alice Lichtenstein about vitamins and why our p is so expensive in the United States. We're going to talk about the vitamin industry, and we're going to be talking about what we need to be considering if or when we decide we want to take vitamins. I think one of the things that I feel like is really important with what doctor Gupto was saying, is that our immune system, our innate immune system or the immune

So when she talked about the.

Thyroid, there's thyroid deficiencies where you can have an overactive thyroid and then that leads to other health issues like weight gain or fatigue or depression.

And those are all linked to your thyroid.

So I think these types of distinctions are important to realize. One mind your business.

And most of all, mind your.

Own immune system and keep those things in mind when people are struggling with different ailments like diabetes, like lupus, like thyroid disease.

I think, first of all, you have no clue what's going on in your immune system until something goes wrong. I mean, it is magical how all these different systems are operating and interconnecting and with so many different inputs. If we think back to the things we've talked about psychologically, socially, how those things have biological implications. The health you had at fifteen is not the health you're going to have at thirty, and it's not the health you're going to

Yeah, I think that's a great point.

So it also makes you think, like checking with yourself, are you noticing anything abnormal or something that you feel like it happens to you more often, you are getting sick more often than other people. Maybe that's the perfect time talk to your doctor about it. Yes, like we said in our early episode, Protect You, did you see how people were making fun of Kevin Durant because his leg was ashy? Yes, so you know that's social commentary,

Is dry skin.

Yes, so now I feel bad.

Yeah, I mean I didn't comment on the internet.

Yeah, but I don't ever comment on the internet like that you were doing to yourself under Yeah, but that doesn't mean go out and start diagnosing people with stuff.

No mind your business. They will go to their doctor.

That's the main diagnosis. That's what I'm doing in twenty twenty two. In my business.

It's none of my business. It's none of my business.

Yes, all right, it's time for one thing, okay, So my one thing this week is something that actually is the key to put me onto not too long ago.

And it's wordle. So can you put me onto this new game called Wordle? I don't even know the website, but if you type wordle into Google, it'll take you to the website where you can play wordle. And what it is is that each day there is a word that you're trying to guess, and there's like some strategy and things like that in order to guess the word, and you get six chances to guess what the word is.

I played it for.

A couple of days, so I've done two boards now. I have been able to guess one one time, and it made me very very happy. And you'll see people on Twitter, on Instagram everywhere talking about wordle. It's very popular right now. So I encourage everybody to play long what's your.

One thing, Z.

My one thing is my supplemental textbook for this episode, which I just absolutely love. It's called Immune, A Journey into the mysterious System that keeps you alive. It doesn't read like a traditional textbook. It's by Philip Debtmer It has great images. I love it. I'm holding it up right now. You guys can't see that, but I just just love the way it's written. It's great science communication, recommended for anybody interested in the immune system. That's it

And don't forget there's so much more for you to dig into on our website. There'll be a cheat sheet for today's lab, additional links and resources in the show notes. Plus you can sign up for our newsletter check it out at dope blastpodcast dot com. Special thanks to today's guest expert, doctor Payel Gupta. Find her on Instagram at NYC doctor and on Twitter at NYC Doctor Gupta Dope.

Libs is a Spotify original production from Mega O Media Group. Users are Jenny Rattlet Mast and Lydia Smith of Way Runner Studios. Editing and sound designed by Rob Smerciak, Mixing by Hannis Brown. Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugira from Spotify. Executive producer Gina Delback and creative producer Candice Manriquez Rinn. Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Yasmini,