I don't judge, but the Internet does. The Internet says the worst people are somebody that's doing CrossFit or someone who's mean. I was gonna say, let me get it. Vegans.
Yeah, Honestly, I feel like nobody loves talking about themselves more than vegans. I don't have nothing against a vegan. Whatever you want to eat, eat that, that's fine with me. But they love talking about being vegan.
A lot of posts out there about being vegan. Yeah.
There are some aggressive vegans though, that are like, really mean if you aren't vegan, And those are the ones that I'm just like, Okay, well, I'm gonna just keep my distance because I don't want no smoke.
Well, I gotta tell you I had an impossible burger recently, and you might have to keep your distance from me. Okay, you're gonna give me some plant blazed smoke. Yeah, you're gonna get some. I'm gonna get these wood chips. Okay. Okay. I'm t T and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify Studios. This is Dope Laps. I am all on the plant based meat alternative kick.
Okay, Yeah, we went and got that impossible whopper and then all of a sudden, the Kia is soy everything, soy life.
That's not true, Like what do you mean?
Oh?
This is impossible meat? And I'm like, m well, what are we gonna do for the function? Because everybody no? Okay? Dogs? We had. That is so funny because I posted the other day that I was at the grocery store and I saw some of the Beyond like the Beyond crumbles that you can get, and I posted it on Instagram and my friend Kate wrote me and said, is that what you're making the turkey out of? That? Is that what you're doing?
Because we have friends giving at your house, right m h? And so yes, if I would have that, I would have been alarmed to but we didn't have that, y'all. We had a lot of really good food. This is almost becoming a food podcast.
I know we got to change the category. But you know I got even my dad. I got him eating plant based. Let me tell you that is a meat eater. He could eat six chicken thighs in one sitting. It's true.
He's very tall and very strong and he's powered by chicken thighs.
He's gonna kill you. And so when you think about taking someone like that, and I don't know what his carbon footprint is, okay, Paul Bunyan carbon footprint. But when you take someone like that and you say, all right, I got this person to eat plant based meat alternative something, you're doing something different because he's not gonna eat a Boca Burger. No shade to Boca Burgers. I like those two, but he's not going for it. Okay. I got him that burrito bowl at Cadoba. He said, hey, you tell
me this right here, this is all vegetables. I'm in. I can do it every day.
Even Oprah, she did a thirty day vegan challenge right right.
See, we're onto something. You have to follow on the footsteps of the greats. Yes, Oprah Beyonce, impossible, man, you'll get a burger. You don't get a burger. You'll get a burger. That was t t I thought that was an alright, Oprah impression. I thought it was good. But affect this Opra impressions.
If I meet Oprah, Hey, Oprah, love to meet you, and I better help you with that.
Yeah, I need my friend there. Okay, So I think this episode we need to put meat alternatives under the microscope. So let's get into the recitation. I want to know has anyone out there tried some version of this from I mean, it's in our local fast food establishment, So it's that Cadoba that I know about World Burger King, Burger King. I saw that KFC was trying to come up with a plant based chicken. That seems tough, and I feel like this is coming out of nowhere. Yeah.
It went from one hundred percent angus beef yeah, to pea protein yeah, very quickly. Yeah. Me, I just want to know, like, how is this stuff made? What?
I don't really understand how you can make pea protein sizzle on the grill?
Yeah? How is it made? Is it better for you? Because I know people think like, oh, if I get this, this is a healthier option, is it? Is it? And then not only is it better, but like what kind of technology is this? Are they three D printing these burgers? Like I want to know the how because I know it's not like we harvested peas. You know, when you get a veggie burger, you can see like, oh, there's a little bit of it, there's a little bit of carrot,
here's a little bit of pee. Yeah, there's a little onion and mushroom over here. It's not like that, not at all. It looks like me this thing and even some it has like stuff that looks like blood pink to dark brown. What's happening? I don't get it, and so we want to get to the bottom of it. Let's take a big bite and jump into the dissection. All right, it's time for the dissection. We invited doctor Christina Agapacas to help us unpack all of our questions
behind plant based meat. My name is Christina Agapakis.
I am a synthetic biologist and the creative director at Ginko Bioworks.
Ginkgo Bioworks is a biotech company that was founded in two thousand and nine by a bunch of scientists from MIT. Earlier this year, the company launched a new venture called Motif to find the next big thing in laboratory based food, and they did this by developing the key ingredients using biotechnology and fermentation. But before we dive into the science behind all these plant based meat options, we wanted to zoom out and get a little bit more familiar with
the history and the industry of plant based meat. Plant based meat is nothing new, but we are in sort of a renaissance period where it's becoming way more popular. I see these plant based paddies everywhere, and chances are you can find them in your local supermarket in the meat aisle. Back in April, Burger King announced their new Impossible Whopper, and McDonald's is actually working on their own version of a meatless burger alternative.
The plant based meat industry has grown so much over the past I don't know, five to ten years. Yeah, you know, I remember seeing like morning Star burgers and stuff like that in the frozen isle, and every now and then I get a black bean burger. I even try to make my own black bean burger. No good. But now that this is at Burger King and all these other places and in the grocery stores like, have
we reached a peak? Is the growth going to slow down now or are we on the trajectory to just keep going well.
Analysts expect that the plant based protein or meat alternative market is going to grow by twenty eight percent a year, from four point six billion dollars in twenty eighteen to eighty five billion dollars in twenty thirty, so twenty.
Eight percent of growth each year. Between thirty. Yeah, what I need to buy some stock. Yeah, the next episode will be about the stock market.
It has been really incredible to see the change in the way that people kind of talk about vegetarian options and vegan options and how much demand there's been.
It's been really really dramatic, and there are a bunch of different reasons people are gravitating more towards plant based meat.
Right a few years ago, I feel like people didn't eat meat for two main reasons, animal rights or for their personal health, like they want to get their cholesterol lower or whatever. But doctor Agapakis says there's another reason why it's become more popular.
Climate ethics and environmental impact that you have is a
major factor. I think that in many people's decisions, and that's been something that I think has changed pretty dramatically in the past few years, where where people look at the sort of impacts of their everyday things that they do and they see meat to the top of the list, and they see better options for them for things that still taste good that they can have access to that can can start chipping away at that impact that they have as an individual.
So the demand is growing dramatically for different reasons. Let's talk about supply. What are these meat substitutes actually made of.
It's basically like protein that comes from plants, right, and so there's lots of ways that that can happen.
That's right. There are many different kinds of plant proteins though. For example, Gardenburger, which was invented in the early nineteen eighties, uses soy protein and it's burger patties, and those patties came with like those grill marks, so you felt like it was really grill what is it? But also peas, wheat, nuts, and rice are popular crops that are used as meat substitutes, but a lot of those earlier meat substitutes didn't quite hit the mark.
You can do a lot with the texture from the proteins that you can get from plants, but you can't really do everything that meat or dare product does. You can't get the full sort of sensory experience. You can't get the kind of qualities, whether that's like how it foams, how it feels in your mouth, how it cooks, all of those things might that have different kinds of ingredients that come from the meat that are important.
So while a lot of earlier meat substitutes tasted just find there was no way you could ever confuse them for the real deal. Yeah, especially with those fake sharpie grow marks.
And so that really brings us to why plant based meat alternatives now are becoming so much more popular. So let's use two of the most popular plant based meat companies as an example, Impossible Burger and Beyond Meat. Both companies still use plants and grains for the bulk of their protein. Impossible uses soy protein concentrate and Beyond Meat uses pea protein.
But what makes these so different from Gardenberger is the specialty ingredients their scientists have developed. These ingredients are used in much smaller quantities, but are what makes the product look, taste.
And smell like real meat.
In other words, these ain't the old school veggie burger patties.
What's an example of one of these specialty ingredients.
For Impossible foods? That was the heme.
Heme has been referred to as the magic ingredient in the Impossible Burger.
So heme is the stuff that makes Impossible Burger cook from pink to brown, right, just like a real burger.
So what is heme for real? For real? Heme is most commonly recognized as one of the components and hemoglobin, right, and that's what makes our blood red, and its primary function is to just transport oxygen. So if scientists that Impossible use heme to give their beef patties that meaty flavor.
And so being able to find a source of that protein that's vegan was really important to the team at Impossible Foods and is really a key ingredient for them.
So how did the scientists that Impossible use heme without using animals as the source for hem That seems really tricky and confusing for me.
When we tend to think about heme, people always go to the example of hemoglobin and hemoglobin being in blood. But the thing to remember, hem is also present in plants and is present in one of our favorites.
Soy, we're going to take a quick break, but when we get back, we're going to dive into the actual process of finding and extracting these proteins that are then used to make the magic ingredients in our plant based food.
Stay tuned.
We're back and we're ready to dive into the actual process of engineering these plant based proteins that ultimately become your impossible whopper. As doctor Agapakis says, it's an incredibly multidisciplinary process that involves aspects of biology, chemistry, and genetics.
My friend, the kia is lighting up. It is a wonderful symphony. Right. In order to get a plant based burger patty just right, scientists have to go through a lot of trial and error looking for the proteins they have the best qualities. And before the break, we found out that hem was the key ingredient in making impossible burgers red and juicy.
Just like real meed. You can find heme in soy, but only in small amounts, and so extracting it from the soy would be really really inefficient.
So the scientist Impossible new that they couldn't just pull the heme straight from the soy. That would kind of cause a lot of problems. So they figured out a way to make their own hem.
The way that they do that is actually sourcing the gene for plant hemoglobin. So like the protein that binds iron and blood is also used to buy iron in plants, and so they took that same gene and then transferred into yeast, and now yeast can start making that rotein at high quantities and then that can be used as an ingredient in the food.
Okay, I need to break this down a little bit. First, they find the gene for the plant hemoglobin, where do they find that? So in the sixties and seventies, scientists used to use a very manual process to break down genomes. So remember that's all the genetic information in a plant or in an organism into these tiny little pieces. And then to say which of these pieces has the thing I'm interested in?
That took forever.
But now with al Gore's Internet, now I just go to my computer and type like I want the gene for insulin, and.
Like, whoop, there it is.
I can actually search those databases now and say like I want a hemoglobin gene, Show me all of them, and like here's I don't know, a few thousands.
This has really widened the pool of potential genes when it comes to sourcing for plant based proteins.
When it comes to sourcing those genes, it's all of biological diversity, right, Like, those proteins can come from any kingdom, any organism, and because of the how much people will have sequenced and how much sequencing is out there, you can source those genes from almost anywhere now and be able to access that diversity and learn from it.
So let's say that you've scoured the database and done a bunch of tests and you found the gene that produced the protein you need to make the perfectly juicy meatball.
Then what do you do.
We can take those sequences that are on the computer, the digital sequence of the DNA code, and synthesize it into actual chemical DNA that now the yeast can read and start producing. That yeast now is a factory that copies itself, and in a tank that looks like a brewery like tank sort of facility, you can have trillions of each of these cells, each making their own and so like that's where you can actually get to that level of tons.
This process is called recombinant microbial technology, and it's the ability to take genes from one source and put them in another organism or plant.
You change the sort of apply chain, right, So now instead of having to grow a ton of crops to squeeze out the tiny bit of hemoglobe, and you make something that makes tons of sugar, you put that into the organism that's transforming that sugar into that protein.
This is really clever. Like, I don't think we appreciate what scientists are doing here enough. And I'm not just saying this because biologists do it. Break it down for the people. Zee, If you have a gene that you know encodes for a protein, and that protein is only made in small amounts, you have to take so much of that source material to get enough protein to be useful. You know, many soy plants, we would need to get enough hem to make blood for burger king supply of burgers,
a lot of plants. So instead you take that gene and you say, I'm going to use something that can grow really quickly, turn over really fast, won't really damage the environment, and use that to produce the protein I want. So that's the yeast. They use yeas, So you can use microorganisms which are really small. You just got to feed them some sugar, you know, a little bit of salt, some amino acids, add some water. They're happy. And then
you like how I make cinnamon rolls. Oh well, I would like to add that you are using yeasts in your cinnamon rolls, and that's what helps it to puff up. Yes, because they're releasing gases. That's what makes your dough rise. Don't even get me going. So imagine you have huge vats of these bacteria or yeasts however they're doing it, producing this protein, and then you have a way that you can select only the protein and none of the
other stuff is left behind. And so you just have pure protein and a bunch of it, a bunch of it. You can make those burgers bleed and sizzle on that grill. Baby a meat taste. Yeah, just like that.
And what really surprised me is when doctor Agapak has told us about this recombinant microbial technology process and the fact that it's been around for a while.
She gave us an example.
One of the most sort of important and kind of classic examples of this is how we used to get insulin. So in insulin for diabetics used to come from the pancreases of pigs. And like one of the earliest applications of exactly that recombinant technology, the ability to take genes and move them around and start thinking about them as these different kinds of machines that can be moved into sort of microbial factories. Is the gene for human insulin
being moved into bacteria. So now instead of pigs and killing pigs to get insulin, you can get human insulin directly from a bacteria that's growing in a tank.
Some people were allergic to insulin from pigs, and I would imagine that someone who for religious reasons or dietary reasons does not want pork anything to enter their body. This was probably an issue, and this was a long time ago. Did they started doing that synthetic human insulin basically insulin produced by bacteria, that was first done in nineteen seventy eight's born.
Okay, so let's get back to heme. This whole process we've gone through is just to get one of the ingredients for the plant based meat, right, but the majority of the patty is still made up of plant proteins from peas or soy.
They're still using plant based protein. They're still using pea protein and soy, but they have these features that are what we call the especially proteins like heme, which aren't present in large amounts. This technology allows you to scale up how much hem and how much of the rare you know, the rare jewels. It's like a power up.
It basically allows you to collect way more, you know, I don't know if use a place Saga Gena says, well, let you collect way more rings, and so now you're like, I have everything I need to make the ultimate patty. This is a really great way to kind of tackle the supplying demand issue right that we have with animals, that we have with food in general. There's a demand for food, but the cost to the environment to keep that supply up is really high.
Often it is significantly lower impact because the efficiency is different. So like when you are you know, you take sugar and you'd give it to the yeast, the conversion efficiency of that yeast into the hem and the volumes that you're talking about are much smaller. And similarly, like the conversion of sunlight to p protein is a lot more efficient than the conversion of sunlight via grass to cows to meat protein.
We do have to consider the environment and there are a couple of ways that this type of technology has an impact. You do have to feed these organisms, so it's not like, oh, this doesn't cost us anything. These organisms don't just like yeast and microbes. Microbes don't just produce stuff without any input. There always has to be some type of input. I think the convenient or a nice thing is that the input is so much lower here. Do we need to build that, do we need special lines?
And you know, is there some stuff that's related to the industrial nature of this, Yes, but I think the industrial footprint and there's a couple of studies that have shown this that the industrial footprint is lower than it
is for beef, pork, chicken, chicken. And I think the other thing that we should consider is the source of these materials a lot easier to harvest team from yeast making hem than it is hem from big blood and yeah, right, And I think that we have to acknowledge that, just like doctor Agapacas said about the insulin, you know, there's that added benefit. And so by using this recombinant technology to let the microbes create what we need, we then don't have to have such an impact on the environment.
Can you imagine growing all that soy, cutting it all down, you know, but only only using such a small part of it. Yeah, it was a huge waste. And so the scientists have found a way, They've found a cheat code, a shortcut to getting us it's the same product, but with less waste. And I think that is something that should not be overlooked, and I actually think this is something, This is where we're going to head in the future.
Because now what we're talking about is just using this technology to make one small component of a larger product. But some people are starting to ask, well, if I can use the lab to make this one thing, can I make animal protein in the lab? Can I make animal tissue? Can I make Yeah? And so now we're talking about real funny about that they are, But you don't feel funny when they grow the skin and give you a skin graph that you don't You take that skin graft and you walk out of that hospital. I
know that that's high. I know that's not the major way that things are done now. Most people have skin graphs from other areas on their body. But that is a that's new technology, right, And so you really have to ask where will we draw Where do you draw the line? Yeah? I guess it's just basically up to you.
What do you feel comfortable with and what impacts do you want to make on society? And once you weigh those things out, you can make an informed decision.
I guess now we now we just gotta stick to our crumbles. We gotta stick to those crumbles and patties. But I hope to elevate up too. You think you think you're gonna be a vegan. No, I'm sorry. Even when I was, I liked the flavor. I don't have to eat the meat, but I need it in there. I need bacon flavor. I need bacon flavor.
If hey, scientists, wake up, If you can do that, I'll be right on board. Yeah. I would put bacon flavor on everything. I'd put it in my toothpaste.
Oh t T.
If you lick a burger patty, does that make you? Does that mean you're eating meat? I think you gotta like masticate like so, if I lick a patty, I can be vegetarian.
If you're thinking about that, you're not committed to the vegetarian lifestyle. Oh it's just so hard. Yeah, we won't. Don't bother joining the group. I don't think you're gonna make it. See now she's trying to challenge me. I know my friend. If it's one thing my friend will rise to. It is a challenge. She does not like you telling her she can't do something.
That means I need to head to the grocery store and buy those plant based meat crumbles or whatever they're called.
Oprah said ten days was enough. Lets you do a ten day vegetarian challenge.
Okay, so we're gonna put it up on the instagrams as we do, and whoever is opting in, you gotta send us a picture of.
Your food every day. Yes, this is intense. I'm ready put them on the stories.
I'm I'm gonna fail the first day because I'm gonna forget and I'm gonna be like, I had eggs this morning.
That's like, did I tell you my dad we were doing that thing? He said, Oh, I messed up. I had brisket for breakfast. Who eats brisket for breakfast? That sounds just right. That sounds just like Curtis. That sounds just right. That's it for Lab nineteen.
Don't forget to check out our website for a cheat sheet on today's episode. You can find it and sign up for our newsletter at Dope Labs podcast dot com.
Also, we love hearing from you. What did you think about today's lab? What are your ideas for future labs? Our number is two zero two five six seven seven zero two eight.
You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram. At Dope Labs podcast.
TT is on Twitter at dr Underscore, t Sho and you can find Zakia at z Said. So follow us on Spotify or wherever else you listen to your podcast. Special thanks to our guest doctor Christina Agapakis. Find out more about her work in the show notes. Dope Labs is produced by Jenny rattlet Mass of Wave Runner Studios, mixing and sound design by Hannes Brown. Special thanks to Jen Stanley.
Original theme music is by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura, with additional music by Elijah L.
Harvey. Dope Labs is a production of Spotify Studios and Mega Owned Media Group and is executive produced by us T. T. Shadiah and Zakiah Wattley.
I know what you're thinking, Oh, I don't want all these GMOs.
Well, TT wants to fight you. Let me tell you something