Lab 018: Truth Pie

So Thanksgiving is next week? Oh boy, are you cooking?

No? I'm not.

What a time I was about to say, what was the last time you didn't cook for Thanksgiving? That's that's wild. No turkey for me, No turkey in my house, period, because none of us like it. Like we used to get turkey every year and now we're just like, no, we don't like turkey. Let's just say that that's not a part of what we eat. I eat the kiss turkey, to be clear, because she she does something different. It tastes very good. The kiss turkey tastes like ham, and so I will eat that bird.

I know this is like the first Thanksgiving in forever that I'm not cooking, but I'm happy to say I will not be rattling pots and pans.

I never cook for Thanksgiving. If somebody asks me to make something, I usually just do like mac and cheese, and that's it.

I remember that boomerang from when you made that mac and cheese. Oh man, it looks so good.

People like it. I don't really eat mac and cheese like that.

I know this goes against everything that we know. Everybody that's listening, you know you're not supposed to eat the mac and cheese. If somebody says I don't eat mac and cheese like that, and they made it, it's actually very good.

Yes, because I have everybody taste tests and I'm like, be honest, and it's my sister, so they're always going to be honest. So I'm t T and I'm Zakiah and from Spotify Studios.

This is Dope Labs.

Everybody knows we love food. It's no secret. We've talked about it so much. But I think there's always so many of these complicated relationships with food. Some of them are around culture, some of them are around like sourcing of food, and Thanksgiving is just one of those food based holidays. And I'm like, I don't know about this. I know probably since maybe the fourth grade, I've been standing up and talking about the Pilgrims wiping out the Native Americans every year.

Yes, so Thanksgiving has a sordid past and people becoming less enchanted with the idea of Thanksgiving because of what it's rooted in and what it's based on in its history.

Yes, it's not like that Peanuts cartoon that they show.

No, And it ain't construction paper feathers and no turkey sandwiches, draw your hand and.

Turn it into a turkey.

It ain't none of that.

It's none of that. Gather around the corner coopia.

No, it ain't no cornucopia. Okay, everybody's just starting to feel like, no, I'm not with it. Like the only Christopher we acknowledge is Wallace.

So in this episode, we're basically rolling these all of these kind of feelings mm hmm and truths, yes, into one big ball of dough. That's how you can kind of put it what you make with that dope pie truth pie pie.

I hope it'sleep.

We are talking about colonialism specifically, we're looking at colonialism through the lens of ecology. So if you don't know what those words mean, hang tight. We're moving straight to the recitation. So we say we're talking about colonialism through the lens of ecology.

Colonialism is a human process that has to do with unequal power structures one society interfering with another society's ability to thrive. There are a bunch of different types of colonialism, but what we're going to focus on in this episode is called Setler colonialism. Cellar colonialism implies a group of people moving into another group of people's territory and claiming

And the lens through which we're going to explore colonialism is ecology. If you remember from our Cuffing season episode. Ecology is a branch of biology that deals with the relationship of one organism to another, and those organisms to their physical surroundings.

I think it's important for us to kind of unpack some of this stuff and talk about some of the broader ramifications of colonialism. Like we're becoming more and more aware of the effects that it had on the Native American population, But there are other things that were affected too.

Right. We know there are lots of plants and animals that are extinct that exist no more.

Right there are fruits and veggies that are not indigenous to North America that are here, that are here that we eat daily, that are in our supermarkets, that are now grown in the United States. But I have a lot of questions about all of this because I feel like I only like see like a little little corner of it. It's like not even like the tip of the iceberg. I don't even feel like I see the full tip of the iceberg. I feel like I can

That's an ambitious I know it's good, right because I think what it says is that you understand that there are effects.

Right.

There are often people think like, oh, it's just you know these groups and then you know, my cousin is part Cherokee, and it's like, no, no, no, you don't understand all of these groups that were basically eradicated. You know. So we've got these big questions, But what do we really want to get to the bottom of? What are we pressing out here?

One of the things is what was the ecology of North America before European colonialism? Yeah, and how did the indigenous communities interact with their environment before then?

Yeah, there's probably a lot we can learn. And then I guess the next question that follows that is how was ecology affected after colonialism started? So now these people are here, is it a rapid decline? Is it gradual like what's happening?

And I think the last question that I have is what do we do going forward with all the information that we're about to get. What are the steps that we can take as citizens of America, citizens of this world, citizen scientists, as global citizens, as I like to say, to make things better and to improve the environment.

Yeah, because I think we're definitely at a point now where we're back in the stage of conservation, trying to undo all of this stuff that's been done in the past couple hundred years.

And you can't know where you're going unless you know where you came from. A so let's get into the dissection and to help us out, we called on doctor Nicholas Rio.

I'm a citizen of the sus Saint Mary Tribe of Chipwall Indians, which is a tribal nation located in Northern Michigan what's now known as Northern Michigan. And I'm an associate professor of Native American Studies and Environmental Studies at Dartmouth College.

Doctor Rial studies Indigenous Knowledge and ecological Stewardship on Indigenous lands. Another area of his focused is broadening discussions on climate change and invasive species by including indigenous lives and indigenous perspectives.

What is invasive species.

Invasive species are organisms that are non native to an area, and so often because they're not native, they're able to take over an area and eliminate other native plants. Or if a native plant is wiped out and an invasive species, a non native plant is brought in, then they kind of like claim that area. Okay, Settlar colonialism on a

So let's start by talking about the northeast region of what is now known as the United States, way before European colonialism.

So the Northeast is a huge region. Prior to European contact, you had a lot of people. It was, first of all, very much a peopled landscape. We tend to underestimate not only the presence of indigenous people, but the influence of indigenous people on the landscape.

So not only was the land highly populated by diverse indigenous communities, it was also very developed, but not in a way that was familiar to Europeans.

When Europeans first laid eyes on, you know, the various parts of the Northeast, they misinterpreted those spaces as being you know, natural quote unquote, as being wilderness and defining that as a place that is sort of, you know, kind of it's got the natural ecology going on and that doesn't involve human interference or inputs.

Just because they didn't recognize a neat, little English garden didn't mean that the land hadn't been cultivated for a long period of time. Indigenous tribes in the Northeast were producing food and medicine within the landscape through really dynamic, committed relationships with different plants, animals, and ecosystems.

I feel like there's a lot we can learn from what the relationship is between self and environment right from some of these indigenous groups, because you have to think if they were making medicine and doing all this stuff, but when you show up with your European eyes, you

It's a very culturally significant plant and being to Annihanabe people. It's really a core part of our cultural identity. It's a core part of how we understand where we fit in the world. And it has an incredible nutritional value too, and so it's an important part of our food ways. We don't just treat it like it we're a relative. It's like literally a part of our ken.

It's just like the respect that you have for your friends or your family, Like respecting them doesn't mean you know, not checking in on them, not giving them the resources they need to survive, not talking to them and making sure that they're okay, like they approach it the exact same way, like it's their family, and the Innitianabe approach to the care and harvesting of this world rice is with the same kind of respect.

The specific ways that we knock rice into our boats. It allows for the plants to produce more seed, and for a lot more of that seed to actually germinate at the bottom of the lake bed than if you were to not touch it at all.

I mean, I think that's really interesting because when we think about respect, sometimes you think that means like leave it alone, don't touch it. But in this case, they're saying, we are doing specific actions to stimulate growth, right, to encourage seeds to drop down into this fertile soil and to grow more plants.

I think that there's a lot of examples like that where it's definitely a sort of an indigenous perspective about reciprocal relationships between humans and plants and humans and animals. Indigenous perspectives more often hold that our dynamic engagement with those plants and animals helps them to thrive in various ways.

So that's a great point. What about the animals? For the Initionabe, there is also great importance on interaction between humans and animals. There's a relationship there that requires attention and care. Doctor Rio gave us a great example.

So for Nishanabe folks, some of our oldest teachings about our connections to other beings on this planet tell us that we are on a parallel path with wolves, who we refer to as Mayingen, and that whatever happens to Mayingen, what happened to the Nishanabk. Both Mayingen and a Nishanabek rely heavily on wawashkashe or the deer as a really important part of our food ways. If the deer population is suffering, then we'll see Mayingen and a Nishnabek both

I think that's a great illustration or example of like how we're all tied together. People say it, but like this is that in practice.

Absolutely like there's no distinction between us and the trees and the leaves and the grass and the seeds. We're all a part of this world ecosystem.

Yeah, so we've learned that for centuries before European colonialism started, North America was a densely populated and diverse region where indigenous peoples thrived by cultivating sophisticated intimate relationships with plants, animals, and the rest of the ecosystem around them. But what happened when the Europeans got there? How are those balances affected. We'll get into those questions right after the break.

We're back. And as doctor Rio explained, before European colonialism, indigenous communities in North America had for centuries been thriving off the land through their highly evolved and complex cultural practices, specifically their relationship with the environment around them.

What we know is that these practices were severely disrupted when the Europeans arrived. So basically, when Europeans arrived, they're like, I don't recognize any of this. This needs to be tamed, this needs to be put into, you know, my category of gardening, or like, I don't.

Know these animals. Where are the animals that we're used to. For them, everything was discovery that was waiting to be influenced. The major effect of European colonialism is the genocide of indigenous people period. But there are other things that were also affected that doctor Rio helped us dive into more.

He told us about major changes in four main areas, diseases, invasive species, deforestation, and global biotic exchange.

Some of the sort of categorical changes that we have seen come from the introduct of diseases.

My friend was not lying when she said the pilgrims, that's right.

Tuberculosis, smallpox, the flu. These were all brought from Europe and contributed to the depopulation of North America.

These diseases that were brought from Europe to North America, they were very influential in the severe reduction in the human population of the continent prior to the big waves of colonization. You know, the changeover from primarily, you know, from an indigenous human population to relatively short order a predominantly euro American settler euro Canadian settler population. You know, a great deal that had to do with the introduction of diseases.

This is interesting, he said. You know, the severe reduction of human population of the continent prior to the big waves of colonization. So this is not just violence with a sword, right, Like, this is biological warfare for real.

The next area that was greatly affected was invasive species.

The introduction of European agricultural systems came with a lot of associated pest species. So Europeans brought some species on purpose that had deletorious impacts on the North American landscape, and then they brought in some as hitchhikers.

And it's so interesting because you know, the question is was it intentional? Was it unintentional? But we know, you know the Spanish, right, they really pride themselves on being explorers. And I think I was reading somewhere that the Spanish crown used to require all of their exploratory ships right to carry seas and plants and livestocks when they went on expeditions. Right, this is so they could establish European

It's just like if so we live on the East Coast to move to Arizona, which is a lot of desert and things like that, and we say, well, I don't want to live in the desert. I want to live and what I'm used to. I want to have a lawn I want to have. I don't want to have you know, these types of trees. I don't want

It's like the Butterfly fect. Yeah you know that movie, Yes, with Ashton Kutcher. Yes, it's like the Butterfly Fact, except you don't get to go back and do it over exactly.

And preserving these natural parts of different environments is super important to the overall health of the ecosystem.

And it's not only plants but also animals. And then one of the more notable one is hogs. So bringing in pigs and letting them sort of run free, they naturalized and had major impacts on forests of New England and other other regions.

That's wild to me.

There were no hogs here.

That's the major industry in North Carolina.

When we think about America and how Americans eat, pork is a major part of that. And I've never considered that they weren't indigenous to North America. But they've not only contributed to our diet, they ate up a lot of the forests.

Yeah, you know, I see this in the movies all the time, and they say like how pigs and holls can totally like rip up roots and everything with their snouts and clear whole fields of like trees and grasses and native grasses. But also I see people use pigs. They say they will eat anything, like they will eat humans. They will eat Did you know that now, Yes.

So that leads us into the next topic that was really affected by colonialism, deforestation.

So European settlers cut down forests in ways that had never really been It's not that it's not that indigenous peoples didn't cut trees, certainly they did, but the scale of timber harvest is that a completely different level by European settlers.

One thing that the Europeans were doing was cutting down a lot of trees, yes, in order to have like.

Rolling hills like they had in Europe.

Exactly to more so mimic what they had in Europe. And then also to like build stuff. And when they're shipping things to other countries, they want to put it into a box, and the cut down a tree to build a box for that and things like that. But another thing that came along with that is that they also were bringing over trees, yes, that are native to Europe, right,

Yeah, it's just like falling leaf waste or debris. But that also is like fertilizer, right. That is then those nutrients from those deadlys are then reconsumed by that soil. They add bat you fall from the tree cover down to the ground, you provide nutrients for that soil.

So the earthworms are eating all that stuff up, which completely changes the look and feel of the forest.

And the last of these categories is global biotic exchange. So this is the movement of products, food, agricultural products across the globe.

Basically, especially as we as we see the movement of

I think an important point to make is that all of these categories that we're talking about do not exist in isolation. When you affect one, you affect all of them.

Right, And that's what makes the impact so large. Right.

So, even something like deforestation and disease. So let's say that they bring over hogs that eat up all the plants and the trees and everything like that. But there's a specific plant that they used for medicine, and if that plant is no longer there and this disease shows up, that they would normally use a plant as this plant as a treatment and the planet isn't there, then you would have depopulation yep.

And then what is the effect of the depopulation, right, Because when we think about these intentional relationships with plants and animals, if you're wiping out these indigenous communities, who is the steward of this land now.

Right, who's cultivating and who's building? Those are relationships with plants, animals, trees, and everything in between.

Yeah, we have to think about the impacts of genocide. The depopulation of the Americas, the severe reduction of indigenous populations had a huge impact on the things that we're talking about and the context of you know, if what we saw, you know, you asked, what would the northeast have looked like prior to European contact? And I said, well, a lot of what you saw had to do with

The other really interesting thing is that this is not just a historical issue, like this is something that persists. It's still happening today in so many ways.

Yeah, on reservations where indigenous communities experience disproportionately high rates of unemployment, health issues, and suicide.

And so when we talk about when people, especially indigenous studies scholars, talk about settler colonialism, we don't talk about it as something that happened. We talk about something that's ongoing. So as long as there's a settler presence, and as long as Indigenous lives are being eliminated, as long as Indigenous cultures are being ignored or eliminated, then settler colonialism is ongoing. It's a set of structures and not a moment in time.

So, like you were saying, these things are persistent. It's not something that's just in the past and we just look back on it and say, oh man, that sucks. We're still currently dealing with all of these things. So my question is what can we do going forward to make our environment better, not just for our plants and animals, but for the indigenous population as a whole.

I think we have to figure out ways to make space for indigenous peoples. We need to be able to make space physically. You know, people need physical space for their for their political and cultural and economic endeavors. So

As people who want to be aware of, you know, all the ways that we are affecting our environment or the ecology. I think this kind of just shine a light in a very dark corner, Yes.

And I think there's a lot to be learned here right even in your outlook and approach. Sometimes these things can feel so overwhelming and you feel like, oh, well, there's nothing I can do. But I think even some awareness, some space and just thinking about taking this interconnected approach to everything that you do to conservation to changes you want to make right. It all matters.

Yeah, I mean, do a little bit of research on where you're from, your town, your state, and find out about the indigenous people of that area and take that first initial step. And once you can find out what they were doing and the way that the landscape looked, then you can make deliberate efforts to improve our environment.

There are a lot of organizations that are pushing back to replanting some of our native seeds and plants, and so there's a lot of opportunity you just have to go looking for.

What I think I might do is do some research on the indigenous people of Maryland and my county, PG County and find out the types of food that they were eating and maybe try and make something with those ingredients.

I hope they're still around for you to do it exactly. It might be tough, but I think it's it's worth it. Yeah, I'm in. I'm in.

That's it for Lab eighteen. Don't forget to check out our website for a cheat sheet on today's episode. You can find it and sign up for our newsletter at Dope labspodcast dot com.

Also, we love hearing from you. What did you think about today's lab, What are your ideas for future labs? Give us a call. Our number is two zero two five six seven seven zero two eight. You can also find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Labs. Podcasts, tt is on Twitter at dr Underscore t.

SA, and you can find Zakiya at z Said So.

Follow us on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Special thanks to our guest doctor Nicholas Rio. You can find out more about his work in our show notes. Our producer is Jenny rattlet Mass of Wave Runner Studios. Mixing and sound design by Hannis Brown and special thanks to Tyler Adams.

Original theme music is by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura, with additional music by Elijah Alex Harvey.

Dope Labs is a production of Spotify Studios and Mega Own Media Group, and it's executive produced by us T. T. Shadia and Zakiah Wattley.

Kats are not native to the United States.

Yes, the bird people have been really telling me a lot about that, because they're saying that well, the bird people I follow on Twitter. Shout out to the Autobon Society