Welcome to the Pet Grooming Business Podcast with me, Bill Betts, where we give practical business advice to help you grow your pet grooming business. This podcast is sponsored by Low Pay, the low rate payment app that gives you more. So, without further ado, let's get going. So welcome, everyone. Welcome to my chat with Hazel.
Now, before we dive into what we're going to be talking about, which is her product, Quick Claws, I thought it'd just be quite nice to get to know, get to know you, Hazel, and see what made you come into the. Into the pet grooming industry. So welcome. Hazel. Hazel, how are you doing? First of all? I'm fine, thanks for having me on. And whereabouts are you located? I'm in Ayrshire in Scotland. I'm in Solcote, so it's a small seaside town in the west coast of Scotland. So nice. I. I went to.
As you know, I went up to Scotland at the weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it. I loved looking around Edinburgh and I delivered a little shopping in Falkirk. I really, really liked it. So we'll be going back, we'll be coming back up to Scotland at some point. Great. Did you have some haggis? I. I braved a bit of haggis on top of a beef burger and it was fine. Wasn't deep fried, was it?
No, but the two things that struck me, going to Scotland, as soon as you walked into the airport, as in, as soon as you got off the plane and went through the airport, you bump into an iron brew machine, which I thought, oh, that's classic. And then the next thing was, I was walking up the Royal Mile and there was shops saying, like, deep fried Mars Bar, you know, another classic Scottish fish. I've never had one in my life and I'm nearly 54, so.
And then on the workshop that we did at Melissa's place in Falkirk, she provided iron brew and cans and tunnocks tea cakes as well. I think I had a bit of a. Maybe a tiny bit of a traditional Scottish menu there. A little bit. All she needs, the square sausage and that'll be you. A local. Little bit of haggis, little bit. A little bit of brew and tunics tea cakes. That'll do. Anyway, so. So you. You own Muddy Paws Express Dog Wash and Dog grooming. What about. So are you again?
I'm in Soul Courts in Ayrshire. All right, cool. So what brought you to dog grooming? Because like you said before, your. Your later life, later your. Your later career in life, you were in the nhs. So what what made you change? Yeah, so I was a podiatrist with NHS Scotland for about 20 years. I started when my son was five, as a mature student. So I used to be all about feet and, you know, a bit of a foot fetish, my sister said.
But unfortunately my mum passed away and of gangrene in her feet, there was nothing I could do and it wasn't my fault, so I keep telling myself, but it wasn't something that really. You go over, you know, you're trying to help people look after their feet and you can't really even help the person closest to you. So kind of a fell out of love with the profession and then during lockdown as well, it was a very different job and we weren't helping.
Like we genie wear rheumatoid arthritis or, you know, with our corns and things like that. It was all about wounds and wound care and ankle ulcers and things like that. And I mean, I didn't mind that, but it was. We started taking on more the role of the district nurses and they started taking on the role more of, like, the practice nurses and things like that. And the doctors weren't really seeing anyone and we get people that had been sent home from hospital with the most terrible wounds.
And that was just heartbreaking, isn't it? Heartbreaking. Just, yeah. So I just fell out of love with the profession and I had done this job. I had started grooming training while I still was with the NHS and gradually dropped a day at a time with that. So I was doing. I was doing both. And then at that time, one of the girls was renting a table from me, decided that she. She just doesn't, you know, she'd lost a system. It just wasn't what she wanted to do anymore.
So she passed me on some of her customers. So it just worked out the kind of ideal time to. To go full time. Yeah. So I think a lot of people that listen to this that are in careers and they're in jobs that they dislike, but like, you know, coming from the NHS and, and myself with the police is sometimes we try and change, change the, the role or, or the job, but we just can't do it. It's just too big, isn't it? So, yeah, we have to remove ourselves from. That's it. Yeah, yeah.
And. And a lot of. A lot of my colleagues keep, you know, keep in touch and say, oh, you did the right thing, you know, like. And they've had to then do advanced courses to learn to prescribe and it's such an intense course that they need to do to keep up with the uni students that are coming out now who are all. They've got prescription rights. But such an intense course and all you can prescribe is like athletes foot cream and E45 and maybe amoxicillin. So it's not really worth the hassle.
Well, that's all in the past. So did you transition full time into being a dog groom? I think probably about 2022, I think my memory shock and I had a motorbike accident and 26-7-23 on my son's 30th birthday. That's why I remember the date. But I think it was 2021 or 2022. Yeah. Nice. And how are you finding at the moment? So you started off with Express Dog Wash? Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that idea.
I had an Airdale Terrier at the time and I used to get a kick out of taking them to wizard of Paws. That was up here that had like two or three different, different branches, but like the nearest one, it was like 60 mile round trip. And I thought, you know, it'd be great to try something like that, you know, because a lot of the big dogs don't need Groo and they just need a bath every so often. But I just, I knew nothing about business. I mean, you weren't around then, for starters.
I knew nothing about business. And I set it as a nine pound for half an hour, we'll wash it for ten pound. And so it was like, for an extra pound, somebody was like bringing in a Newfoundland and going, there you go. But it just, it just wasn't. The business model wasn't sustainable. And actually even the, the people that have the Express Dog washes, the wizard of Paws, they're, they're in with daycare and grooming and things like that as well.
So I would get lots of people coming in saying, you know, grooming hen. We cannot find a groomer for loving her money. And I was like, are you joking? It's back breaking. But I just, I had to go and go and do it, so. And I do love it, but just my first one was just the bath. And so, yeah, I was thinking it was like a machine that people, you know, took their dogs in and fed the machine coins and they bathed the dogs themselves. But it was actually you doing it, was it? It was me doing it, yeah.
Or them. Or them doing it, yeah. So they, they could do it for £9 or I could do it for £10. I mean there was absolutely like no logic in that at all. But I did, I did look into the. It was K9000 was the token operated machine but they wanted you to, to be a limited company and to, to become a franchise and you had to be earning a lot. A minimum of like £14,000 every few months or something. But no, I wouldn't never have managed that. I know someone at the moment that's investing in some of the.
Do it yourself. He's importing them over from the Netherlands and he's looking, he's getting, he's having to get planning permission and all sorts to get. Yeah. So there's a lot, there's a lot to it, isn't there? Yeah, it's good. If it's added on to the likes of a garden center or like the, the, the, the fields that people take the dogs to and things like that, it is great. But not as a standalone service. I don't think it can work. You know, like.
So you obviously settled in there and you're happy with your, with your business but we're going to talk a little bit more about your product that you've been and investing in and that's called quit clause, quick clause. Yeah, this is really interesting. I'm going to try and put a picture of it on the, on the screen for people to look at. But for those that are listening on the, on the podcast as well, maybe you can describe what it is. This podcast is sponsored by Low Pay.
Low pay is half the price of sum up and zettle. So you keep more of the money that you earn. Rate start at 0.79%. So it's a, it's a model poor kind of based on a medium sized dog like a Labrador and it's on a detachable stand. The stand actually is based on the. You know, if somebody's wearing surgical stockings and they've got difficulty putting them on and you get these wire stands. I don't know if I'm asking you if you know about stockings, but that's, that's another conversation.
I'm nodding away going, yeah, no, I don't know what you mean. It's a metal stand and it helps to open up stockings so people can put their feet in. But anyway, so it's based on that. The, the designer gave me a few different options and I base I picked that one and it's good detachable claws. So there's clear claws with a red Quick and there's black claws with a red Quick inside there's there's no blood before anyone asks, so it's no blood. About to, to put a picture up of it.
So like you said, it's a, it's a. Is it plastic? Like a plastic pore? Yeah, it's acrylic. I think acrylic. Is acrylic the same as plastic? I'm but clueless and, and obviously it's got, oh yeah, replicate toenails in it, hasn't it? Cutting the tails. What. Where does it come from? As in where the product come from. But where did the idea come from? What, what made one day going, I need to do this, I need to design this.
You know, we actually, we used to have something called Fundy Friday in here and we'd come up with all sorts of daft ideas because I've got another couple of inventions tucked away in the background. When I come up with it, I actually thought it would be smaller and cheaper and easier to bring to market, but it's not working out like that. So basically, I think because I worked with feet, I'm maybe not as scared of paws and claws.
I mean, I was at first when I was training, I said to the tutor, what way will I cut this dog's claws? And she says, anyway, it'll let you. But I didn't know if I should hold the paw at the front, hold out to the side, how much I should take off. I just got the, you know, the standard diagram that you see with the lines cut here and whatever and, and everyone learns differently, I guess. You know, I could never understand that. I'm more of a hands on kind of person.
So once I get more comfortable with cutting nails, I was surprised that colleagues I was working with that had maybe been in, you know, in the industry 10, 10 or so years longer than me still were nervous about doing it and quite often even said to owners or they were clean up a bit today, so I didn't get them done and it was just really so they didn't have to cut their claws, you know, or you would say to customers, you know, like, is there any way you can keep on top of the nails at home as
well yourself or. No, they're black. So it was less like shock horror, they're black. Or I went to the vet and the vet said, no, your dogs get black claws. So I can't cut them. And I thought, but that's like 99.9% of dogs. Yeah, we, we get them, we get the ink, we get the referrals, we, we have some vets actually Send customers to us to, to do their black dogs. Now they're black.
Yeah, we've got two Labradors and we did one recently a black, you know, and, and you do kind of get these inquiries and just go, hold on. They won't even do that or they'll. Say my dog was. You don't need to do the dog's claws. They were at the vet last week and got them cut and I'm looking at them and I'm like, do you mind if I take some more off? You know, so. And now I'm a, I'm actually trained to, to teach the ipet range of qualifications now the level three, level two.
So I thought it would be good to have a training model. I scoured the market and at that time there was nothing at all on the market for, for practicing. The only poor thing there was was in one of the vet catalogs for like bandaging but there was nothing with claws or anything like that.
So yeah, when you get these ideas, when you get this idea in, obviously I think people like yourself, my, my father in law is a little bit of an inventor and I think there's something about these people like you that you know, you, you have this, you have these ideas then you're able to start like writing down how it looks and what it'd be like. And I think it's a different way. People's brains just work differently like that. Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure I could be that inventive.
Well, how do you actually start this? Where do you actually start with when you get an idea like this? I actually started it. I was, I was working with Strathclyde University on another invention. They had got one of their master students designers on board with that. And then I mentioned this to him and in his spare time he helped do an initial prototype but then he moved away down south and when I wanted to pursue it further I had to, I had to get a designer which, which alone was difficult.
I don't do what you sound anti men or whatever, but when you're in the kind of a field of like trying to design something mechanical or whatever is Ms. Male dominated. There wasn't a lot of men would take me seriously, you know.
So I found a, I found a female designer down in Cheltenham and she gave me like, I just told her my ideas and they have a brainstorming session at first and they all come up with like four different paws, four lots of different nails, four lots of quicksilver stands, things like that from the, the weird and wonderful to, to. To what I've got now. And she's like a mind reader, you know, and just came up with that. So that's another skill, isn't it? Interpreting? Yeah, you've got it in your head.
And maybe like drawn out roughly, but this then interpreting. But I suppose for the designer they've also got to understand the problem that. You'Re trying to solve because I said to her, when do you want me to come down with my dog? And she went, what do you mean? And I said, well, to see his claws and show you how I cut them and stuff. She's like, Hazel, you don't need to come to Scotland down to, down to Cheltenham with your dog. She says we just use like a, A sure hardness scale they use to.
To get the, the nail. Try and interpret what you're looking for. So you pick the, the outside. It's like a one to five rating. Is it like a crayon? Is it like a jelly baby or something? Like the inside and the outside. Is it like a rubber tire? Is it like a bicycle tire? So you're trying to work out all these different things.
Yeah, when you, when you say that in my, in my, in my head I'm not that mad, but in my head I can kind of hear the, the click, you know, when you, when you cut a dog's nails, there's that. Yeah, yeah. So when you were describing that, I could kind of hear that in my head. So yeah, it's really interesting. Like how did you. Is it like a jelly baby? Is it. It's a bit harder than a jelly baby, isn't it? A dog's. It's a painted interior. I think if you got to the jelly.
But you're good, you've gone too far. Yeah, pretty much. And that's, that's like the blood as well. I mean, we're not really trying to teach people to cut dogs nails to the bleed. The idea is to see a red quick or, you know, appearing and stop there and get people to know that it's not this hollow center or it's not. You can't just angle your clippers back the way, you know.
But also for groomers that want to practice, like some of the nail groups, the American nail groups, they're quite obsessive about getting nails as short as possible. Like little nubs they call them. And they always talk about an alternative cut line and it's how to recede the quick and drilling up and all around it. And people are showing their dog's Nails like is this short enough?
And the dog's hardly got anything there, you know, so, so the, the scope on these to do that as well to, to drill round about it. What I'm not really happy with though, I got the ends of the claws rounded and part of that was because I thought, well, if we're sending these pointy things and they'll pierce the packaging so you know, they'll arrive through people's letter boxes or whatever and they'll be these claws sticking out or.
Yeah. I don't know if you've ever seen the scene for Mrs. Brown's Boys where she's doing granddad's toenails and like the window shutters and things like that. That's going to take some desire. Health and safety at the forefront there. So it's not.
That's low flying missile because actually that's the, the model now that's about my fourth set of claws because the first law I did like break a pair of clippers and the second one flew across the living room and you are looking under the radio finding these bits and eels and everything and I thought I can't have that. So. So they've gradually got a bit softer.
But I don't know if I said I've gone on to Kickstarter to try and raise funds for the first 500 to get made and if you're one of the first hundred to make a pledge, you get a see and whether you think the needle should be pointed, if the quicks should all be different lens, you know, you can enter into discussions with it so we can get it right. You know, before we go into that, I just want to understand how long it's taken you to get to the model that we see on our screens.
You know, is this a prototype or is this something that you use? Yeah, that's, that's a pre production prototype. Right. How, how long has it taken you to get, to get this far? Because, well, it's all been self funded or thanks to like Capital One credit card, Aqua credit card and whatever. So March 2023. Yeah, yeah. That is so long, doesn't it?
And this is a project that you find you get home from work, you've done your day's grooming and then you kind of park that to one side and then it's like right, next email or next, you know, next decision to be made around the quick clause. Is it all consuming, this kind of project? It is all consuming and it's something that you don't like to tell A lot of people about either you become quite protective of it until it's trademarked.
And even if now that it is trademarked, because it's thousands and thousands and thousands to get a worldwide patent or a European patent, and then even if you did spend all that money, you've got to be able to have money to go to court if somebody did make the same thing. So what I've done is I've registered the design as it is.
I can change things like the claw shape and things like that, but it's basically registered as a model paw on a detachable stand and with detachable nails, 16 black claws, 16 red claws. And I even had to do all that myself because I went down the route of a solicitor and the money was just building up. So it's hundreds of pounds to get it trademarked and then I've registered the name Quick Clause. And while I was doing all that, I decided to do the iPad training as well.
So I kind of shelved this a bit. I kind of. I do everything back to front, I think. Well, I don't have the money to bring it to market, but if I spend more money that I don't have training to be a, a grooming trainer, I'll get money for this. I do everything just back to front. So. So I did that and then, yeah, lo and behold, something similar came to market and it's kind of maybe got me off my backside a bit with us and try and, you know, try and fund it and try and get it made.
So. So the hope is, once this is made, I suppose what you're looking for it to achieve is to give groomers and pet professionals more confidence when it comes to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Groomers, students, even owners. Because, I mean, the, that would be on sale for about 40 pounds, roughly. And I mean, I, I don't know how much you charge for a nail cut, but down here from the, the Veterinary nurse, it's £38. We only charge like £15 in the salon.
But if, if, if an owner even bought that and practiced, because once you've got the model, that's it. There's, there's little protrusions or pegs on the top of each tool and they are designed to last. Well, for someone working five days a week, taking the nails on and off about 30 times a day, three to four years. So that's a long time. And so then all people have to do then is buy replacement packs of nails that will be available about four pound fifty or something.
So once You, Once you've trimmed those, those plastic nails. Disposable, aren't they? They're one time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can, you can, you can do it like one time, like how it should be and like, keep that for a student to say, this is ideally what you want to aim to get to. Or then you can, you can cut it and then you can go on and dremel it and things like that. And you can use the, they're all universal fittings, apart from the, the dewclaw.
So you can actually put just a black one on and then a clear one and say, right, I'm going to do this one, you do that one. Or there's various different ways, but yeah, it's. Yeah. People just now want me to, to put a battery in it so it will jiggle about the table. Start jumping up and down and jumping up and down. Yeah, you're not touching my feet. Yeah, or squirt blood out.
Or start ye open and in fact, you know, funny enough, when I, when I first came up with the idea, I had said to the designer, you know the game operation, when you're trying to get the things and you buzz against the side, but it's the cost, everything costs, you know, and the more intricate parts that are, the more expensive it is. So this is actually phase one, what I'm calling phase one, because I do, I do have ideas after this and it involves like, fur socks and things that.
There has been another teaching schools got in touch with me and said that that would be quite good for, for teaching people how to do like, spaniel feathers and retriever feathers and things like that, you know, so there's, there's. And, and that's something that, you know, I, I didn't necessarily think of to start with. So it can evolve? Yeah, it can, can evolve. I just wondered, did I have like a human version of this? I don't. I know when, when you look at.
You watch some TV documentaries and you see the, the doctors practicing on a patient in recess and it's, it's one of these like, recessiones, but advanced recessioni that spurts blood and like collapses a lung and stuff like that. Do they have like a human foot where you practice, like toenail clipping and stuff like that? Not so much the toenail clipping, because even as podiatrists, we weren't even supposed to do that.
But when, when I was studying, when I was in second year at uni, we went to Glasgow University, where the vets and the doctor study and we went to the anatomy department and they had the cadavers, you know, somebody. The heads went to the dentists and the chests went to the thoracic surgeons and the podiatrist got the feet. So we got the feet in the lower leg and, you know, different stages, different layers and things like that to identify all the muscles and tendons and things.
And now there are those, like model feet for diabetics, diabetic nurses and doctors. Like, they'll maybe have a plastic foot or a rubber foot and there's a big ulcer on the heel and there's a big bunion and there's maybe a corn on the toe and stuff and things. I've not kept up to date with where it's. I wonder if there's a little bit of that in the back of your mind from when you were training and you thought, actually I could produce something very, very similar for the pet grooming industry.
Yeah, well, I was down at the industry federation. They, they run an innovation competition and I went down there, I got into the finals and I went down there and a few people said, oh, you should really get the tools to all articulate and do this and do that, like bionics almost. But I thought, well, I won the lottery then. That's a first.
So one of the reasons why you wanted to come in here, obviously, is to raise the profile of it and, and first of all tell people about it and, and show them that it's out there. But you've also launched, like you said, like a crowdfunding. It's called Kickstarter. But you've all, you've launched a crowdfunder to try and raise some, raise some cash to help you move it, move it forwards, haven't you? Tell us about. So, so Kickstarter is.
It differs from crowdfunding and that it's like an all or nothing. So you can't just earn. I think I've, I've put down to raise like 22,000 pounds or something like that. And every penny of that would be towards the, the product. It's 13 and a half thousand just for the tooling. And then there's the, the, the paws and claws and the shipping packaging, the design of the packaging and any extra, any differences that, that the backers want to see, you know, like claws, a different shape.
One of the other groomers, Emily, I think, Emily Goodwill. Yeah, I think she's, she's from Poland. I'm not sure she, she quite, she mentioned like curly claw as well. So maybe get different yeah, yeah. Get different shapes. So they'd need money for changes like that. So it's all or nothing. So if I don't raise that by, I think it's the 2nd of March, then that's it. I need to think of something else. So it's off the Dragon's Den, isn't it? Yeah, I wouldn't have the nerve to go in that.
You're lucky I'm on here. We've had Sophie James on here before. She, I believe she went to, she went to the Dragon's Den. So yeah, there's, there's someone that you can draw on, experience wise. But, but yeah, I think it just highlights to people listening, doesn't it, the, the vast sums of money it takes from a, you know, an ingenious idea to then try and get that idea from your head onto paper into, into a prototype and then actually for people to benefit from that idea.
Yeah. And, and the thing is, is, well, I mean you sign all these non disclosure agreements with the designers and the factories in China, wherever, but then you get bigger companies coming along with more money and they just make something that's, you know, similar but cheaper. They can do that, they can afford to do that. So. But yeah, so, so Kickstarter, I've only set it to raise 500 units to start with so we can get the, the model right and the nails right, the consistency right.
And that's why I wanted to get groomers on board especially, you know, because I thought, well, I'm designing this to help them, not trying to say that they don't know what they're doing, they do, but as to get it as realistic as possible to show owners and to train students and, and things like that. Yeah, yeah, basically. So the, the first 100 are on sale for £39 and you get free delivery if you order two or more. That's, that's abroad as well, that's, you know, anywhere.
And then the next 400 are on sale for five pound more. So what's that? 44. 44, yeah. So, but it started off well enough, but it's kind of a. Slow down a wee bit. I thought, I thought some in my family would maybe back it just to stick me drawing pins in or, you know, these. You find a penny and pick it up and just stick it in the pour and bake pens or whatever. So the Kickstarter needs a good kick. Yeah, it's all. I suppose it's very similar, I suppose to marketing your business.
It's that constant telling people about it. And, and making sure people are aware of it. Yeah, it's actually going to be featured in Total Grooming magazine, the March edition. So if anyone reads that. So. And then you said, I think if you, if you donate, you. You can actually help in the, in the design and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I mean, I've put a rounded edge, you know, at the. The end of the claw and the more dogs I'm getting in here and I'm thinking I need to change this.
I say it was more for safety, but do I kind of swap the safety for more realism, you know, so that's what I'm wanting to help with because people will probably associate you with the first thing you bring out, you know, and if it's rubbish, then they won't looking back for like the second part. So. But it would need to come. We are worn and, you know, if it. Pointy nails and blood and stuff like that, so danger of life or something. You end up supplying like, safety goggles.
Safety goggles, yeah. To be honest, should we be wearing them with dog snails? Anyway, there's a list of questions on the Kickstarter and one of them is, do you need to wear goggles and whatever. And I put yes. So. Well, it's. It's been great learning more about it. I've put the, I've put the link to the Kickstarter in the. In the comments and when this comes out as a podcast, we'll put the link into there. Into the comments as well.
But, you know, I. I have been following this because I know you've been chatting to me about it over the. Over the years, haven't you? And. Yeah, yeah, fascinated to see that journey and, and hopefully you'll start getting some financial backing to be able to. To get it up and running for you. Because my son keeps asking me what I want to achieve. What do you want to achieve from this? I don't know, just a product to help. To help people learn how to cut dog's nails safely and confidently.
If it gets me a holiday to the Bahamas or something, then that'd be good. But who knows? Who knows? So. Well, hopefully you'll stay in touch and you'll. You'll let us know how it goes. Definitely. Yeah, well, definitely. Well, proof's in the pudding. We'll hopefully see the products out there, out there for sale. And you said about doing some trade shows. Are you looking at coming down to do some of the trade shows like Groomfest? I think you mentioned Pats, didn't you? Yeah, yeah.
Colin Taylor had mentioned me about, like, debuting at crafts, but I say I've only got this one prototype and, and even to get some more for a trade show, it would cost thousands and thousands of pounds. So, yeah, I thought Pats, they've got a specific section for like new inventions and things like that. And, and I think that there's buyers from a lot of the big pet shops go along and things like that. So, so I'm not, not just trying to aim it at groomers, but vet technicians, owners.
See, there's people at the agricultural colleges, things like that that I'd never thought of. So, yeah, just to get it out there. And it seems to be quite well received from people generally in the pet industry. Grooming, not so much, funnily enough. But yeah, when I went down to the Pet Industry Federation Awards, yeah, everybody liked it. So let's say this is, this is people's chance to get involved.
And you know, I even thought like, your, your group, you, you've got groomers and, and, and other pet professionals, haven't you, on your, your site? It's not just groomers, it's, it's, it's mostly groomers. Yeah, it's mostly groomers. It's, it's groomers all over the world as well. So. No, look, it's all over the world.
So I mean, if it's free shipping for two or more and there's maybe they could get shipped to like one person in the one area and then they could distribute it or, you know, kind of like that and make it more economical for them to get it sent out. Yeah, big training schools and big colleges as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they say once they have the model, that's it. It's just a clause then that they need to buy and they can, they can say, no, I want some sharp ones, want some curly ones.
You know, I'll take all comments on board, you know, so. Apart from I don't know about blood, but who knows, who knows, who knows. Thank you very much for coming on and telling us all about it. You're welcome. Keep in touch and let us know how it goes. I will do. Thanks for having me on. You're welcome, cc. See you soon. Bye bye. I hope you have enjoyed this podcast. Please make sure you give us a like or a review to help people find it. The podcast is sponsored by Low Pay.
Head over to www.loway.com to find out more about their payment. Sol.