¶ Cheating Scandal in Nepalese Medical Schools
They were saying that folks in Nepal were a part of a telegram group . They would have like the systematic way of any questions that they took . They'd memorize it and then their job was to put it in the telegram group and kind of create this rolling question log . Basically .
Let's say you're green , you just happen to be staying in Nepal , and someone says , hey , I got this good group right here . It's going to cost a thousand bucks , but we have good questions in here . Hey , are we allowed to have these questions ? And some of us was like , yeah , it's a test bank .
You go to test day and you're like , hold on , this isn't just good questions . Like nah , I remember seeing this question . This is exact the Mundo , what we're seeing here . We're focusing on Nepal , but , like if they really got down to it , I think they find cheating in multiple locations .
Yo , dr Barry . What's good man , how you doing .
Hey , so I need thank you for having me Appreciate you .
Man , it's all good man , listen , man , I see you over here doing some investigative journalism over here . I'm like yo how he doing all this stuff . I love this . He's like you date line for the medical rolling Martin up in this and stuff . So I said listen , there's so much stuff going on right now just in general you know , in life and stuff .
But I thought when I saw you know your interview with Dr Brian about this cheating scandal that's happened on happening with the Nepalese students or USM elites . I was like , look man , there's just too much for me to kind of talk about it with my own audience . So I said let me bring you in here . You come and tell us what's going on .
So what's the scoop G ? What's going on ?
Hey , I appreciate it . You know it's interesting because I did a live on it , because obviously , as a former program director , like G and me still , you know something I love , love to know about , read about . So of course I come across this cheating scandal or they're dropping articles and I'm like ooh one , because I'm not shocked .
That is a cheating scandal , Right ? And I ?
why don't you shock the ? What exactly is the cheating scam ? What's going on ? What's ? What's the school ?
So what happened is in Nepal . In fact , there was an investigative journalism that said hey , you know what ? We think there's a cheating ring going on in Nepal where people are recalling questions .
They're in telegram chat saying hey , this is the question I got , these are the answers , and they had such a systemic process with it that it was , let's say , it's like 20 kids Like hey , you got the first 10 . I got a second 10 . I got a word . Oh , it was down to the tee . And what happened , especially when they started getting native greedy ?
First of all , people started snitching Right . Well , typically , most most likely people who were outside of the circle , who couldn't get in the circle , was like hold on , like if this person is going to get a good grade on the USM , lee and I don't , not everybody's coming down Right , and because that's typically how these things kind of go about .
So there's the stakes .
The stakes is high as hell , right , because when you , coming from an outside medical school , you trying to get into the United States , like the margins are so like , like you don't , you don't have time to like get like a certain percentile , like it's got to be high , or the programs aren't even looking at you .
So there's some parts where we used to call it double 99 . If you didn't- have double 99s on your USM Lee , step one and step two . The programs weren't even looking at you , like if certain parts of the country , if you didn't have double 99 on step one , step two , they weren't even looking at you .
Like which is ? What is that one wrong ?
It's ridiculous . It's ridiculous Like how , how much the standard is for them , but because in other parts of the country , other parts of the world , they teach for that test , you know , like you know how three . You know I teach you a little biochem here .
Oh , that might be on that exam , but like you're going to learn my biochem because this is how I learned it when I was like AP courses .
Right , like they teach you how to beat the test over there . Yeah .
Like so of course they have people start snitching . Then investigations start happening because the rumors are getting so bad and the wrongly start getting so bad that the USM Lee had to do something because you started having people like medscape starting to do some infest gated reporting like hold on , like we're here .
So just so we everybody understands the folks , they were saying that folks in Nepal were a part of a telegram group which is basically the rival to WhatsApp . Yes , and people would .
They would have like the systematic way of people would take the test and they would try to memorize or recall , like the first , whatever questions they can , can't , they can think of any test that they , any questions that they took , they'd memorize it and then their job was to put it in the telegram group and kind of create this rolling question log .
Basically .
I mean essentially a better version of any Kaplan Q bank that you would ever see . Hmm , oh yeah , you can kind of see where I'm leading to when I mentioned yeah , yeah , like a caplet .
So how long has been going on ?
For as far as what they've been looking for the past at least three to four years . As far as the numbers and by numbers that's some we got to the point where they said , alright , we're gonna look at the tests , we're gonna look at the test questions , we're gonna look at your right answers , your wrong answers , we're gonna look at the location .
We're gonna see there's some similarities and and it got so bad that questions that would normally get thrown away these people that were in this group were all getting the right and getting the wrong answers right .
So there was a big concordance between test takers .
Yeah , even like I get . I'm not saying it was a cheater , but typically you know , if you cheat off your friend next to you , right ? You're not gonna get the same exact questions like your friend just to throw the teacher off .
No , there was no throwing anybody off , no , if , if I learn that , oh , this is a , this is B , this is C , that's how I was answering it .
So you had this systemic approach where not only was this area doing a lot of cheating , you had people who had scheduled their testing in that specific area at a specific time , when they knew that the questions Weren't gonna be rolled over to a new set of questions . Oh , they had a system .
So like . But how do they know ? It's just Nepal , like right , like cuz . That's the thing that , when you found this out , tell us how they found it was just Nepal , because this is really interesting . What happened is it was . We knew it . People do well in the United States . People do well and other parts of the world , so why ?
Why is it that specific spot ?
Right , and I think what happened is because the snitching started to occur . Right , I get , it always starts with the snitch . The snitch started saying hey , you know what I don't like this like so snitches , where people getting like two thirties and stuff Problems and they , you said it best this is high-stakes , this is life or death .
I don't like or I don't work , I don't become a physician . So people , this , this , if , again , if I can't prosper , no one can't prosper . But of course you can't just go off one person's you know , because they , you could tell they're probably just Grunder like oh , you didn't get the story wanted . So now you think everyone .
But after they heard enough rumblings , usmle was essentially forced to say like okay , we have to at least address it . And Of course Nepal got all of the fanfare news . But what's us ? I think this is what happens and this is why I wasn't shocked . What's usmle started looking , they started seeing some irregularities in other places .
Right oh , international , also international , other places that kind of had that same kind of track record where you know , at certain time frame everyone wanted to take the test during the score . Right , like got you . They started and then they started looking at the question banks . Wow , everyone's getting the same right answers .
Everyone's getting the same wrong answers , even the questions that we're like all right , nobody's going to answer this , they're getting correctly . And guess what ? All 20 of them are getting the same answers , correctly or incorrectly . It's just a such a system . I mean , first of all , they did a good job with the recall . Let's just say that .
¶ Cheating Scandal in Medical Residency
Can't you get credit for just memorizing that stuff ? Because hey , what was it ? There was something else that you were saying that folks was finishing the test like three hours earlier than the average person in the world taking the test Again .
Like I said , I don't want to call no cheaters but again , if I was cheating , right , I'm going to take my time with the cheat . These folks were flying through tests that would normally take you hours to do . They're like right , they go and hand in the paper .
It's like to the point where some test centers were like , hey , you know what , you might want to just sit down for a little bit . You might want to right now want to be breaking your tests , just like it . So it was .
But that's what happens when the cheat goes on A couple of testing centers are like yes , I mean you've , you've , you've raised the red flags . We're trying to get this money for you guys taking the test here .
You're playing you are going to bring the heat to us . So now you have people who are , when you're confident , like , yeah , maybe that first year , the first year , people not going to do that . The fourth and fifth year , people definitely will . Right , the four or five years they're like ah man , this is a racket , we got this .
Here , we go One hour , take my whole test , so you have . You have all of these irregularities , all of these like concordances to say like , oh yeah , this person and this group of people are cheating .
And of course , during , especially during this timeframe now , where we're talking about match , we're talking about like , hey , I'm about to go in someone's residency . This is the I mean . Unfortunately , this is like the best time to drop a news like this . Right , because now everyone's at a standstill , because whose credibility comes into play ?
Usm , elise , credibility comes to play ECFMG , the governing body on the international medical school days . They come into play . Right , because all of a sudden people are starting to look like hold on now . If it can happen in Nepal , where else can it happen ? Now ?
It never happened here in the United States , because I don't think we would have a significant enough system , because obviously we have our Princeton's , our Kaplan's and all those things there , but they're , they're , they're , trust me , they're Q banks . Don't touch these Q banks over here .
Let me ask you a question . So what about , could you say , three or four years , or maybe even longer ? That means that there are people who are already in residency at this point , possibly , maybe even finished their residency . So what , what happens there ? What are they doing there ?
So the question so this is what I asked out of Carmine . I said hey , you know , how far back do you think the USM Elise is going to go ? Because you're getting to the point now where it's embarrassing , right , if I'm , if I'm talking to trying to pull a second year , third year resident out of their program , that's embarrassing .
So they've , they've , you know , they've been okay . They say you know we're not going to go that far back , not that I don't think that they can find inaccuracies in grading back , but they just don't want to be embarrassed because all of a sudden , you have a lot of money at play .
Like you know from a numbers game , if I pull a resident out , medicare Dolls might be 90,000 a year , right ? So now you better cost me 90,000 a year . And there's some programs that take , you know , a lot of FMGs . Hold on , you're gonna cost me how much ? So ?
it's more than just is more than just saying you cheated , it's okay , we caught you cheating . Possibly then if we take you out of a system , then it affects not only your education but it also affects the dollars that come into that hospital .
Okay , and of course , and now , because ? Because they can't now , I mean , with this statistical evidence , they can say , yes , you're cheating , but because they can't 100% say , they say you know what ? We're gonna invalidate your score .
I was about to say so how they doing this ? Go ahead . So I'm like , I'm like , are they just saying , if you from the Paul , if you from the poly , all the scores that are valid invalidated . Yeah , so what they're doing ?
Well , essentially that's what they did like . So all of the testing centers in an appalled area , they invalidated all of their tests . It said hey , you know what ? We can't trust that this test Four is viable . You're gonna need to take this again . So imagine now this , the two scenarios imagine your PG Y1 .
Like your PG Y1 , you're already in the residency and now you got to take this test again . My question was alright , do I have to get that same high score to stay in your program ?
or do I just ?
I'm about to go into residency . Do I need to get that high score right to go into your program ?
Most like what do or do I get to keep my high score if like is there you know ? Say like , if I score like a 230 , does that make me keep my old school ? I'm just making stuff up , but it's just like this so much . This is a pandora's box man , it's a problem .
No , and again it's . I think it's so systemic that like , of course we're focusing on the Paul , we're keeping on these kind of areas here , but like I think if they really , if they really got down to it , they would . I think they find cheating in multiple locations .
Again , I don't know if you would find the USA location right , because y'all know we were good at looking for , you know advantages and test banks and everything else , and there was a telegram out there and there was a what's that group out there . Somebody in my circle would have known about it . They might have .
It might have been on a hunch , us , but some . So I have again , when we were we , that wasn't a thing for us .
But clearly their process was so refined that like in only only a snitch and to the point where now Some of my be asking like okay , who cares if the snitch like said hey , they're cheating USM , a league didn't planted people in the telegram group to get to bring the evidence back .
You know they got under covers they got nox , but they got , so this is a deep cover . The movie yeah , what ? Who's got a first bird in this ?
Okay , so they . So you certainly did their job , as far as let me confirm that , yeah , this is a cheating rink and we so they they actually had literal like Undercover people in the telegram group and they were able to confirm that questions would be the same .
Questions is building Damn .
Yep , I think I said what are like hey , are we allowed to have these questions ? And some of us like yes , a test make . So imagine , let's say you're green , let's say you don't know nothing about Nepal . You just happen to be staying in Nepal and someone says hey , I got this good group right here .
It's going to cost $1,000 , but we have good questions in here . You might just be thinking all right , $2,000 or whatever .
Yeah , jump in , yeah .
You jump in and then you're getting these questions like , oh , there's some good questions . And then you go to test day and you're like , hold on , this isn't just good questions . I remember seeing this question . This is exactly what we're seeing here . I think it hit wildfire . One because a little bias . People are biased against FMGs .
So anytime they get a chance to dump on an FMG , they're going to dump on an FMG . They're going to dump on an international medical grad anyway . Right , and this is more the USA medical grad versus the international medical grad bias . So you got some biases at play here going .
In fact , you have USMLE , who needs to clean its reputation because it's clearly they got pie all over their face Because , again , this wasn't a one-year operation . For as long as we know , this is at least three to five who are in residency right now again taking care of people right now . So this is something that goes deep .
So USMLE has to clean face because if they don't do it , this investigative reporter at a Metscape is dropping a bomb . So imagine you know a reporter about a drop of bomb on you . You got to tell on yourself first .
Yeah , that's what I thought was really interesting about your conversation , which is they knew about this , but Metscape was doing their own investigative journaling , was going to release a document or going to release a story , and they were just holding off , the USMLE was holding off and then , until they got when that this story was coming out , that's when the
USMLE came out . That's really interesting .
So what is the IMG community saying ? Right ?
now what did like ? Because I don't know if you on Reddit or anything of those type of thing . What's the IMG community ?
They got to be like are you upset ? And of course I'm getting comments at DMs , so of course you already have , and you in Florida , so there's a lot of IMGs down there .
I'm sure they type .
Again , I went to , I did a rotation at Jackson Memorial and you know that you obviously know when , like in the IM program , there is like regular IM and then there's IM for FMG Like that's a standard for these big programs , where a large base is FMG base . So of course you already have people who want to separate themselves .
Hey , I did not come from Nepal . Whatever you want to say , I did not come from Nepal . Now , mind you , remember our Florida nurses scandal we had down here .
The nurses did the same thing , yeah , yeah with their degrees , or didn't go to med school , or didn't go to nursing school .
No , they didn't go to nursing school , they just paid for . They just paid for the test . They skipped over some things , didn't go to clinical , skipped over some things . It's a , it's a funny game , but again , this is the game that you play when a lot of dollars are at .
Things go afar in Florida man .
We get your stuff together , yo your vaccines . It's a lot of dollars at stake .
It's a lot of dollars at stake , alligators , your BBLs .
No Florida . You know , I pray for our state , I pray for our citizens , right Like it , just
¶ Challenges in Medical Testing and Residency
it is what it is . So of course , img communities trying to separate themselves are saying I am not them . People even in that era are saying , hey , it's wrong to persecute us . Right Like , we want our fair share .
Like someone actually sued which I thought was crazy Like why would you Somebody from the polls , somebody who got their tests invalidated , they sued . That's what you're saying .
Yeah , because it is getting like if I invalidate your test , you have stopped me in the middle of the progress . Now I can't go to residency interviews , I can't be put on nobody's match list , right ? Because I have this hanging over my head that my test is invalidated .
So even if I do well , someone's going to look at me and be like you gave me the scarlet letter , so it's it's oh yeah .
So this , and I think this is one thing where I think you're just going to have , especially once they really start naming a lot of these other test centers and places that also are in cahoots and they're going to have to again revamp the changes and again , the changes unfortunately aren't immediate right , because this is because I got a lot of late .
People ask any questions like oh , why don't y'all just make new questions ?
It takes years to do that , yeah this is not .
This is not chat GPT .
Right .
Like .
I jumped , I did a , I got on board for writing tests for the and I didn't know that you like . You just write questions and then it takes years for it to end up on a test . Yep .
So this , this is not something where you could just kind of flip a switch and like , all right , they got a new set of test questions because , remember , you're trying to test against others who are taking that similar tests . So you can't have one section area taking the test and then the whole parts of the rest of the world right Taking a different test .
Like , how are you going to say this person has a 230 versus whatnot ? So it is .
And the other thing too . The other thing is I heard that even though the tests went to pass fail for you as somebody step one these folks were still killing the test , like in the 250s . The incentive to score highs not there anymore and they still scoring high , because I would have been like , yeah , let me get whatever's the minimum . Yeah , you know .
I think you know what happened , especially with that incentive , is that you still got a number right . So , yeah , it's past fail , but there's still a number there . We already know how bias works . That PD is going to be like yeah , that's cool , you got pass and fail . How much of a pass did you get Right ? And they know that .
Right , we're not dumb , right ? We can see it too . Right . We're like oh okay , all right , your pass ain't like his pass , what's the other shoe .
Is there another shoe that's going to drop ? Or is there , like , more investigations that are going on , or are we like continually , right now , in the punitive phase , right now , like you have ?
you have us and Lee who's hoping that this can just say hey , we invalidated your test . You know , take the L , keep it moving , right . You don't , if I'm us and Lee , you don't want this to be a long , drawn out process . You don't want it to and again , and that's why you stop short at how far back you look .
Right , because imagine if I got to snap someone from John Hopkins , brigham Young , right University , miami , right . Imagine if I got to start snatching residents from over there , right . And now program directors are like hold on , like how much did we lose ? Because now you know right , like right . So this is a domino that you assembly does not want .
Because an end like my mind , you know , if you're a good business person , you go hey , you know what . I can come up with a better test that no one can cheat on , like the assembly , right , like a competitor can come through .
Right , Like it's not gonna happen .
It's not gonna happen . There's hypotheticals that occur right , Especially that now you know you only has a chink in this armor . And if you're EC , FMG , like you're also looking what ?
Because you're like man , you're , you're supposed to be the body that's supposed to clear these kids Because , remember , they can't even take the assembly until you give them the okay to do it . That means that all of these kids had to get the okay from you , whether it was a test , whatever it was to say , yes , this person is ready to take the assembly .
So now they got egg on their face , they got clean up their reputation right , and then the test centers , like everybody has to like , do some reputation cleaning ASAP , because we're fortunate that the general public is just like okay , you assembly because if they start question , if the general public starts questioning what's the credentials , what's the qualifications ,
it's gonna be a problem . It's probably a major , major problem much easier for nursing right Because they can . They can kind of connect like okay , you got to go to nursing school , hold on , you didn't . You didn't go to the school , like , you didn't do one clinical . You just skip right to the test , like , hold on , like so this is different .
But like , now you're talking about doctors , now you're talking about people who are surgeons , doing invasive procedures , prescribing medications . Like hold on , hold on , this person cheated on their test . And again , again I'm . You know I got a little bias right .
If I'm in the United States and I wanted that spot in that program and you took it because you were able to cheat on that test and I was not , that changed my whole career trajectory . Like I wanted that residency spot , I couldn't even get it because they had already penciled you in , because you had such a killer USMLE .
Yo , the dominoes are far-reaching . Let me ask you a question . The last question is we definitely understand that . You know the dominoes are going to be far-reaching . There's going to be a lot of fallout for this .
What's the timeline with when this is going to be settled , like are you still going to be putting out information on this , or is this kind of like a one-time ?
two-time thing . Yeah , no , no , no , yeah . So right now , because the lawsuit's kind of still in phase , we're going to be kind of following and tracking this lawsuit . We're going to be tracking to see what other spots and locations are also like CNN on this show .
Right , we're going to look at the speed Because I want to see what residency spots might or have already been affected , especially because , again , they're supposed to be . We're in March , so match is coming up Like . So , like you had some people who probably had a name already penciled in for a residency spot , that boom , you're off the list .
Somebody moves up and when is match ? This year , I don't even know . I got a , I got a , I got a . That's a good question . It's usually like March , so damn , oh yeah .
Yo , dr Barry , yo yo , before you bounce , tell them where you , where they can find out more about you , man .
Yes , yes , so I have a YouTube channel Medicine with Dr Barry , pr TV . We do medicine Mondays . We do Dr Barry Pierre Reacts . Of course , we have my podcast Lunch Learner with Dr Barry
¶ Podcast Inspiration by Dr. Neidarko
. If you're those who may not know , our good friend Dr Neidarko has been the motivating factor in me starting a podcast .
Again . Stop lying , bro .
No , they can check the history . I'm on episode like 377 . I don't get a 377 unless Docs Outside of Box releases a podcast .
You want me money , then yes , I do Like thank you , dr Barry . I appreciate that , man . Thank you so much . Listen , guys . One of the best podcast is out there , completely follows through , has been dedicated to doing this for years .
This is where you guys need to be following up , not only just for this Nepali scandal , but if you're not even in medicine , you just want to get simple explanations of what's going on with your medical care . That's the podcast that you need to be checking out , dr Barry . Listen , I'm going to catch you next time , all right , man .
I appreciate it .