¶ The Search for Fulfillment Outside Medicine
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Run the tape . What else we got on deck , what we got on deck , all right , so , um , I wanted your thoughts on wow , my brain is trying to blink , hold on , that happens to me all the time we can hear those wheels turning read it .
So you so you had pulled up a post a little while ago about being fulfilled how doctors should stop looking to be fulfilled by medicine . Did you want to read the entire Reddit ? Yeah , you want to read the .
Can I bring it up on stage ? Are you ready for me ?
Yes .
Make sure you clear up your desktop , you know . So can we please talk more about how we should stop looking to be fulfilled by medicine ?
Someone writes I'm slowly starting to understand that the root cause of my residency depression stems from having believed for what feels like forever that I was supposed to be fulfilled by my choice of specialty medicine in general . What feels like forever that I was supposed to be fulfilled by my choice of specialty medicine in general .
It sucks to be in your thirties now and realize that if medicine itself is the sole reason I'm supposed to feel fulfilled , then well , I'm not going to be fulfilled . Even worse is being a single woman in your thirties . Ah , that's where this comes from , them eggs in the Midwest . Realizing this because options for many family partnership are so scant .
Lol , but that's a personal problem . So tell me about when you realize you are a complete person outside of medicine and that being a doctor is still just a job . I don't know what ETA means . Is that like ? Is that ?
Edited to add oh , I was like estimated time of arrival .
Edited to add .
Some people are reading this and interpreting it as me saying it's not a fulfilling profession . What I said was that it doesn't fulfill me , not that medicine isn't . It's self-fulfilling . They're different .
Think about it boom , do we have a name for that since ?
well , they didn't they didn't write it to us , but it's in we don't have to give their name it's just .
It's just in the residency , it's just in the residency thing .
There we don't have to give their name , why it's on Reddit . It's just in the residency thing there . We're not going to give the name . You should get somebody to do it . No , we're not . That's not credit . We're just reading what they have to say Exactly , all right . So what say you , renee ?
First of all , I did not write that , so I think the writer makes a very good point . Um , I think that a lot of people go into medicine and other professions thinking once I get into this , I'm going to be fulfilled , right , like you know .
Okay , the other day we were talking about this and you guys were talking you were actually talking about the Pit , that new show , the Pit and I was asking you because you were like , yeah , it's really real and it's really raw , and I said , well , does it have that kind of like I'm a doctor and I'm just going to heal and that's what I'm going to do ,
because that's what I meant to do all my life ? You know , and I feel like sometimes people think they're going to go into medicine and they're going to have a Grey's Anatomy moment or ER moment or I don't know name your medical TV show here .
Like there's this new TV show called Doc and there's a point at which , you know , in the trailer she was like you know , basically healing is what I do best and I'm going to get back to that . You know , and I'm just like I that doesn't happen and it's probably never going to happen for you , not in that way .
So if you're looking to your profession to be fulfilled , then you might be sorely disappointed . You know , and I think that there has to be more to fulfillment than just I'm going to complete this degree and complete this training . I just I don't know . I don't think that the writer is wrong at all .
I agree , I agree and I feel like even the fact that she's mentioned her age , I feel like there's a lot of expectations for us as people not just as women , but as people to have our shit together by , you know , our 30s . It's like why Am I dying in the next 10 years ?
I mean I could , but , realistically , why do I have to have it figured out by 30 ? Like , am I not going to make it to 60 ? Like , who's to say Like ? There are plenty of people who change directions several times .
Mm . Hmm , yeah , what's your thought Nhi ?
About what she said .
Yeah , so I think you know my vision has changed on it , because now I'm 46 and I'm looking back now you know , especially when I'm looking at kids now who are not going into medicine , who are , you know , let's say what they're trying to figure it out , right , yeah , I think they have it harder now , particularly if you're not knowing if you want to go into ,
like medicine or law or maybe even engineering , because outside of those three things , like if you follow a certain path , you're going to be a doctor , if you follow a certain path , you're going to be a lawyer or you're going to be an engineer or whatever you know exactly what there's a structured plan to that , know exactly what , there's a structured plan to
that . But when you're not sure exactly what you want to do and you know you want to go to college and you want to get a degree and so forth it's really difficult to kind of figure out what you want to do .
So you have to , like , figure out your purpose a lot earlier on , whereas you think that you know what you want to do , which you think equates to what your purpose is , which equates to you what your fulfillment is . So , you're fulfilled , maybe through the , the , the path of trying to get into medical school .
You're fulfilled and you think you have purpose while you're in med school and in residency . And then you start to see , like the realities of being a doctor .
When you get showcased into residency , or you get this showcase to you as an attending , you're like wait , it's not what I asked for , this is not what I bargained for , this is not what I thought it was going to be like .
And I think , in essence , it becomes like this existential crisis of like I'm not fulfilled and is the end product , which is me being a doctor . Is that really what I want and is that really what's going to fulfill me for the rest of my life ? And I think that's , in essence , what that Reddit post is .
Is being a doctor alone enough to say , hey , you've accomplished everything in your life and you're satisfied at this point ? And I think a lot of people are like , yeah , no , but I think that was the same way 10 years ago , 20 years ago , 30 years ago , 40 years ago .
It's just that now being a doctor is really , as I tell a lot of people like we don't want to say it , but it's almost like a blue collar job at this point . Right , it's , it's like you know , it's at the upper echelon of that . But in essence it's a job that you check in and you check out .
You don't own your patients particularly if you work for a hospital .
You don't own your patients . You know and you work with your patients . Still , it's still a great job . I love it , it's fulfilling , it's a profession , but you know , it's not the end , all be all .
That I think a lot of people think about and I think that we have to be a lot more open about that and having these types of discussions and I'm glad that it came up on a resident on the Reddit post .
But in that TV show , the pit , or even in ER , I always got that sentiment Like it was just like this is very gritty , right , like being a doctor or going through the process is a very gritty process and the end goal , yeah , you're super focused on that , but you got to know that at the end , like you're going to have to do something else afterwards .
No-transcript .
I have a question For right . Um , that's your fault , though .
This is my fault .
For the sake of the podcast , should we delve into that ?
guys need some ratings should have married me sooner . Let's skip that . There you go , there you go .
I have a question on page . Yeah , what's your question ?
When it comes to being fulfilled , whether it's by medicine or any other profession , do you think that any of it has to do partially with the conditioning of society in general , where we're conditioned to believe you need to have a six-figure job and in order to be happy and fulfilled you need to meet these certain criteria and the expectations and whatnot Do you
do you think that plays a role ?
Absolutely yeah . So I mean , let's start . Let's be real right . 50 years ago , the society's goal of you making it was white picket fence , house you know 2.5 children a dog and you know , working at GM or working at a car company and having like a , what kind of job is that ? A union type job ? Right .
And then you know , modernization occurs , globalization occurs , and that's false to shit . And now it's something else . Right , like you , you look at my kids right now they want to be a YouTuber . Right , like my kids , right now they want to be a youtuber . Right , like my son , my oldest son , to drive uber .
He wants to either drive uber or he wants to be a youtuber , because that's freaking glamorous to them . Right , that's what they see on tv , that's what they see on youtube , that's what they , you know . So it's , it's literally what society puts out . There is what we're going to value the most . Right ,
¶ Parenting and Professional Pursuits
so that's how I feel . I believe yeah , I think that the , the , the nostalgia that we have with doctors , that's gone , it's waning , it's gone . Right , like , there's a show . I got to look it up , what's his name ? I forgot his name the Lung Doctor . I figured what his name is , no .
Is it Dr Jarrett ? No , it's not Jarrett Judd .
Rudd yeah .
Judd Rudd .
Anyway , uh , jed , yeah , jed , red .
Anyway , my man's got a podcast , oh my , God , I don't know why I just like had a brain fart for his name .
He's got a podcast that's coming out . He's a good guy . He's got a podcast coming out and it's basically him and a co-host . It's going to be on video and it's also going to be on audio and it's like medicine explained and basically they're going to debunk all these myths and all these different things .
And I'm just sitting there and I'm like this show will do really good , but I'm like , damn , the fact that we actually need this show is very telling , right , and I was thinking , I was like I was going to leave them a message , but I was in my mind I'm like , is this show even going to do ?
Well , right , because we don't trust people , don't trust doctors anymore . People don't trust medical institutions anymore , unless you're in an absolute emergency , right ? Or unless you actually need to buy into the system , then they'll trust you and even then , they don't even 100% trust you . Well , that's because we have access to information .
He's going to create a show where they're debunking certain things . First of all , how , why would someone even believe them ? Right , like they're just saying whatever they're saying and , granted , they're doctors , I believe them , but the question is , will the general public actually believe them ? I don't know .
Yeah , I mean , I think that's . You know it ? I think so . The power of that show , that kind of show , is that there will be lots of debate , right , because there will be people who don't believe them , but then there will be people who do right . So I think you know we're kind of like on a half and half .
You know where you have half of society , or at least this society that really believes in doctors , and then you have the other half . That's just like nah , you know they're , you know they get kickbacks from you . Know your prescriptions . I'm like really Tell me where to sign up , because I ain't getting none yet , but you know .
So I think we're half and half . But to your question about Do you believe real quick ?
do you believe some of that stuff is true ? What ? Because , it's like , you know , some of these things that we are questioning now , like some of that stuff is based on truth .
You know how , like now , like it's really cool for like the right to like question the FBI and stuff , but it wasn't cool , like back in the eighties , when black people were questioning the FBI , like yo , you bring a crack cocaine into the Los Angeles and nobody wanted to , nobody wanted to believe all this stuff , right ?
Nobody wanted to believe any of this stuff .
Now it's like you're bringing crack cocaine into the and now no , and now , because it's like uber , like now , because it's like uber like vogue . Now to like question fbi . Everybody wants to question everybody , like damn , didn't y'all see snowfall ? Like come on I'm serious like right .
We've been saying the fbi been crooked for years , for decades , damn no , but to to your question about you know to your previous question .
Yeah , well , to your previous question , I think you know , especially for women Right the the the thing about women , especially those who want to go into medicine . Oftentimes , not every time , but oftentimes the dictum is wait until you have finished everything possible in your career and then pursue , very seriously anyway , a relationship .
You could be in a relationship .
Who's saying that , though ? Know that has kind of a hold on women basically going into medicine or these types of professions that are considered , you know , high powered , or at least take a lot of education Right . Don't get derailed by that man in your life .
Don't let him impregnate you , you know , otherwise you won't finish and you'll be dependent on him and you're an independent woman , and that's the way it's supposed to be .
Right , you're a 90s girl . Is that society ?
speaking . Or I'm asking is society or is that like self-imposed ?
from women on their own . No , that's society . It's society . Think about your mother told you . Repeat from with men , we have to . We have to put ourselves on the same level . So men aren't out here getting pregnant and putting their careers on pause . We , we do . We get pregnant . We have to put our careers on pause .
So , in order to keep it balanced , we have to put that side to the side .
Exactly , exactly . Your own mother told you right Just go to school , don't worry about anything , just go to school , finish , become a doctor first . And what did you do ? I did . I became a doctor first , exactly .
Exactly , but isn't that so ? Okay , but that point would just be saying that message is equal right , because I get the message just as I don't know if you got the message .
You got that message . You got that message . But a lot of men are not necessarily getting that message .
My kid's going to get that message .
Okay , a lot of men are not necessarily getting that message Would that message be the same message you tell your daughter , because technically daughters are , we are , women in general are on a biological time clock .
I tell my niece the same thing .
Right so .
Don't get hemmed up by no dude .
But if , but then why are you asking the question ?
Nhi . Well , I guess from my standpoint it's like isn't that it ?
It's not . I don't think it's very equal . I think , I think and this is why I said many women not all , but many women , especially those that are headed in careers that take a lot of time to attain , a lot of education to attain .
It's like no , stay laser focused , because if you get pregnant right , if , let's say you got a girl pregnant in med school right , let's say that happened . How does that affect your career ?
Majorly .
But how you would have to drop out .
Possibly .
What's the likelihood that you would have to drop out ? What's the likelihood From zero to ? 100 being 100% you would have to drop out .
So okay , first of all , is the girl in med school with me ? Is the girl not in med school ?
Let's say , you got me pregnant in med school .
So then okay . So then you're in med school too , right ?
Yes , I'm in med school too .
You more than likely would be taking time off to be with the child , right ? Yes , I'm in med school too , so that means you more than likely would be taking time off to be with the child , right .
Either pregnancy complications or I got to stay with the child , or you know something .
Well , I think the big thing would be then would we be able to sustain some type of housing , food , all those different things ?
But you have loans . Hold on , you were living on loans .
Can I do that on the loans right ?
Okay .
Can I do that on the loans , right ? Because it all depends on how much you take out , right ? Like if you're taking a minimum amount I need to ?
take a step back for a second . So you're thinking as 40-something-year-old me with logic . I need you to go back to what .
Right 20 something year old me . 24 year old me .
That was paying for stuff off my loans .
Right so 24 year old me . Right , so now I got it . Would he have dropped out ?
Right , it's possible .
I doubt it , because I knew him when he was 24 and there was no way in hell this man was going to drop out of medical school . No way , there is no way in hell you would have dropped out of medical school . Nope , absolutely not If you had a child . If I had a child in medical school , you would not have dropped out .
I would have tried to figure out a way to stay in right you would have . That's possible , yeah .
That's not possible .
That's what it is . But my question then is so food formula , all those different things ? Because there's a point where , like your loan check , like is your loan check , but me , there's , but but first of all , go on WIC or something like that Exactly .
There's right If it came . If it came to that point , right , let's let's just assume that we would have had no family support . Let's let's assume right .
Cause I don't think that that's what would have happened . You wouldn't have had family support . I would have had a lot of family support . No , you wouldn't have had family support because they would have been like stupid boy .
What stupid boy . You let this girl get too hemmed up , as they say .
This Haitian girl .
She Haitian . She's Haitian too . Oh , nee , nee , that's how your mother would have said .
Anyway , he's laughing , I hope she's not listening because he's thinking about it .
He's like she's not wrong oh my god so let's get back to the topic .
So the point the point , the point being , the point being that there's a very , very unlikely chance that you would have dropped out of school and that your career would have been majorly affected , whereas for me , my career would have been much more affected . Right , because you're talking about the responsibility of raising a child .
I'm talking about the actual like being pregnant , right ?
I'm talking about the actual like being pregnant , right .
So you know , yeah , you're talking about food , housing , clothing , all this kind of stuff . Those things are very important , but we're not talking about , you know , the condition of being pregnant , the complications that potentially come with . So would you have dropped out if you were pregnant ? I don't know . I actually don't know .
What would be the percentages if you could go back ?
If I mean , I would have to say it would be 50-50 .
I really don't know what I would have done if I had a baby , Like would you have done a sabbatical ? You probably would have just done a sabbatical , so that's not really a thing .
Well , that's the thing with sabbaticals , right ? A lot of people who take sabbaticals do not go back , don't ?
come back Right .
Now I got a child , but I got a child with a baby mama who got debt , but we're not married .
So what's the big deal ? We're not married . I'll tell you what . I'll tell you . How about ? I tell you I wouldn't have married you ?
I share my version . Maybe Nii will understand a little bit better here we go .
I had a month . She's going to drop the bomb .
She's going to drop the bomb on . I had three months left of my bachelor's . I lived in Hawaii , david . My husband moved down to Florida . I had my son with me . At this point I found out I was pregnant August 2018 . Completely unexpected , I was on birth control . Whatever In my mind , I had a vision right , I'm going to graduate .
I'm going to pursue either further education or a job . Okay , um , I ended up pregnant . David and I meet up again in December . I'm about 20 weeks , right , I'm starting to show up because it's my second pregnancy . You show a lot faster .
¶ The Complexities of Fulfillment
Nobody would hire me . Nobody would hire me because they knew for a fact that you know I would go on maternity leave at some point . I actually didn't have a job from when I graduated , all the way up until I started freelancing , and that was only you know I freelanced because I couldn't get a job . Nobody would hire me .
It did not affect my husband at all . Right , me being pregnant did not affect him at all . He got up , he went to work , he lived his life , he promoted , he woke up and did his . Me being pregnant did nothing for him except add another mouth to feed , obviously .
Right , exactly Once the baby came . I respect that , thank you for sharing that . And not even once the baby came , so much well could be once the baby comes . I respect that . Thank you for sharing that . And not even once the baby came , so much Well could be once the baby comes , depending on how you decide you're going to feed this baby .
Oh , no girl . She breastfed for three years , For almost four years .
Right .
If you breastfeed , then that's another obligation that you have and we got to deal with your feet and all that stuff .
What are you complaining about me ? What are you complaining about me ? What are you complaining about ?
Listen you invited us to the show Anyway .
Exactly so back to the . You ain't got to feed this kid until he's like three years old Back to this topic .
So I get your point . I respect that , but I do so I think in general , what did you ?
want to want . Well , the last thing the point I was making from from this whole conversation before it started , was that , you know , fulfillment comes , I think , from a lot of things and it can't just come from one thing .
And I think that's the mistake that a lot of women actually make in , you know , once they realize that wait a minute , there are other things , and men do this too , but I can only speak from a woman's perspective that once they realize that I've , you know , I've finished down this path of attaining this career and I want other things and I'm still not
necessarily fulfilled , sometimes , depending on where they are and how old they are , it actually might be too late or it might be very challenging for them to reach that . So I think , for the women out there , just , you know , be very careful about thinking that you're going to be fulfilled only by your career , because that's , that's very unrealistic .
And I think that G Jordan Grumet the the previous episodes that you had with him . It kind of talks about purpose and you know what is meant by purpose , and the small P in purpose versus the large P in purpose . I think you got to be really , really careful about that .
No doubt , no doubt .
Kiara .
No , no , I'm good I'll leave it as yes . They'd get me in trouble . Did we beat ?
this horse to death .