REPLAY: Medical Students Financial Implications. #397

So that's why these medical schools continue to adjust the cost as they're moving forward . So , yes , the body's not mutating , but society is . Interest rates are . They're gonna continue to go up .

Find out about jobs , taxes , travel and , to me , most importantly pay . Visit locumstorycom to learn more . What's good everyone . This is Dr Nii , host of Docs Outside the Box . Listen , this is a special episode .

This is a collaboration between Docs Outside the Box and my favorite organization , the organization that got me through medical school socially as well as academically , the one , the only the Student National Medical Association . And guess what ?

Next year will be 60 years of the amazing work of the Student National Medical Association , and we are joined by the one , the only , dr Love . Anani , dr Love , tell them who you are and then we're going to jump right into this .

For anyone who listens to the podcast , yes , I am the Doc with the Lucid that need be talking about .

But yes , you do drive a Lucid , which is higher in cost than a Model X Plaid , but it's dope and I've seen it driving around .

I was going to go the Tesla route and I was like , no , no , no , I've been saying I want a luxury car . I thought I was going Lexus my whole life . And then I looked up luxury EV and Lucid popped up . I looked into the whole company and what they were doing , Found out they're one motor trend car of the year . I was sold right there .

Oh my God , here we go . I was sold . That was me . I was sold , All right .

The reason I asked you that question , y'all , is because I just want y'all to know that , like , like dr , is the specific um is doing the things that specifically I'm talking about , which is , you know , he can afford anything he wants , but he can't afford everything , right ? So you wait until you get to a certain point in your career .

Maybe your loans are paid off , or maybe you reached a certain um career trajectory , maybe you've gotten a certain promotion , um , or just maybe you just reached a certain net worth , right , but you put in the hard work first and then you said , okay , listen , this is the card that I've always wanted , or this is the card that I want .

Let's go ahead and make it happen . And , if I understand you correctly also , isn't this car specifically for business only ? So you , you've put in a part of an llc also .

Right , keep going . I'm listening . Hey look y'all . I'm one of those conscious people I'll be looking like look when it's 50 degrees , when it's 60 degrees in .

That covers all those miles . I use Stride for my app . I was into the other apps Y'all suggest . Stride was free and keeps track of the miles .

You're doing it the right way .

You know I'm not going to write off a hundred percent . I will say for personal use , it was used 20 , 30% of the time , whatever , and subtract that amount .

You may find out 10 years , in 15 years , from one of your partners in the surgeons and I was like , but you was doing what all along ?

Why did you tell me , right , so you found out pretty early in your career and I really applaud you for that , because that's really smart and like the reason why I started off there is because , like this episode is about really the financial implications of going to medical school or even any type of health professional school , and what that means for you while

you're training , after you're training and then while you're working , because whether you're in nursing school or you're in medical school or you're in respiratory therapy school , like the cost of the cost of admission is like exponentially on a yearly basis , getting worse . And I'm just going to start off with some stats . Hold on a second .

Let me get some stats up in here , because I'm a stat person . If you look at the stats right now , medical school graduates owe a medium average of $215,000 in total educational debt . So that's pre-medical debt included , right ? So that's college and med school , right educational debt . So that's pre-medical debt included , right .

So that's college and med school right Now . If you're talking about just debt in general by itself , people in medical school , if you don't include medical school , if you just include sorry , if you don't include undergrad ,

it's $200,000 of just debt , right . And then what we're finding out from these stats is that that debt , that financial burden , is actually playing into what medical students decide to do in terms of where they're going to practice , like if they're going to go to a rural neighborhood or if they want to go practice in an inner city right , like me I was .

I grew up in Irvington , newark , inner city areas and I made the tough decision that when I finished training , I can't go back there because I can't afford to live there and still pay off loans . So I went to a rural area which wasn't in my plans . It was a great experience , but finances played a part , right .

It may even affect what specialty you go into , right , if you're going to go into family medicine versus a subspecialty it's going to affect that . It may affect how quickly you get married .

That's it For undergrad and med school combined Light work . I mean , I'm just What'd you graduate with ? Undergrad was 100 and med school was 300K . 400 for you just alone . Yeah , yeah , 215 , light work . That's back in the day . So I know folks now are like really feeling it .

So yeah , that's and if you think about it to me , all right , undergrad , and if you know my undergrad , I'm going to save my undergrad because I sit on the board . I don't need y'all blowing them up on like the socials .

They annual medical education conference , but 25 a k a year for that school is great if you can come out after that . So that's why the 100 didn't like phase me . Uh , and then med school again 300 is light work .

my mom , full Nigerian immigrant . Her role was let me get you to college , but we got to figure out how to pay for it later . So when the FAFSA came in , you know I'm one of those immigrant children . Hey , mommy , how much you make this year ? All right . What'd you do this year ? How much you donate ? All right . Hey , sign here .

Like , that was me , right , like .

Right , you always have to pay that minimum , like maybe 2K a year or 4K a year , and then the school would fast for the rest of it . But , yeah , no , that was her involvement throughout the entire thing .

So when you're doing the whole thing , it's it's like you don't even mention the finances here to your mom at that point , right you're just like I'm going to medical school and that's it no , I mean , she told me that was the same conversation same difference .

My dad was like in , he was in like electronics , he would fix like the big computer sorting machines at banks , right , so you know the check sorters . So if they would break he would go and be on call and fix those machines and stuff , you know .

But I did the FAFSA paperwork , like you said , for my parents , and then sign here and I graduated from college with $25,000 in debt . So this is in 2000 . And I was like I thought that was the end of the world . And then you know my parents would contribute a little bit to it . But that was it right .

Because when you look at the FAFSA form you realize how little or how much your parents make . Right , and it's either . It's a very sobering conversation , particularly when you are , you know , at a very , at a private institution .

You find out like how much you know your colleagues or your , you know your coworkers or your , you know how much you're the people in your school , how much their parents are making , right . And when I graduated , I was like , oh man , like $25,000 , a lot , until I went to medical school just the same way . I told my parents I'm going to medical school .

There was no discussion about finances . They had no clue . They didn't ask . It's not like they didn't care , but I'm sure they were just like , well , what are we going to contribute ? We'll be there , we'll be there for you , We'll help you get there and all those different things .

But you know , and I remember , like taking out the first semester or the first year , like it was like almost 40 K , you know , and it was just like it took me four years to accumulate $25,000 . And just like that , I just doubled that , if not Right , and that was crazy and I just I didn't know the implications of it .

I just knew that this is what it takes to graduate , that's it .

I remember filling out those FAFSAs as a pre-med . I remember telling myself I'm going to be paid more than my mother in my first job annually and that's why I never complained about my residency salary . I was like all right , we're going to make it work . She made it work , me and my sister and her . Can you say that again ?

And the fact that that there is , it makes more money than your mother's annual salary . That speaks to the social economics Right of where you come from and stuff .

So by the end I think I was like nearly 10K more than she was annually and I was just like you know , yes , I'm putting in 70 , 80 hour work weeks , yes , but I'm not going to complain about it , because who am I complaining to ? The person making less than me annually ? So , yeah , you had to shift . I shifted my mindset to . This is where we are now .

You've already ascended to that place you were talking about to make more than your , than your mother . Now you can continue to go up that mountain .

Even before exit interview , right , like you have to be like thinking , ok , listen , like like I'm accumulating a ton of debt , did there was there any thought process of like I just want to do maybe primary care or maybe I want to go into , I want to subspecialize ?

And if you did think that , did it have anything to do with your debt or your , like your economic status growing up ? Tell me about that , those decisions to go into ER or your economic status growing up .

I think even having an undergrad if you take federal loans , you got to have an exit and you're like , hey , you owe this much , don't default , please , this is your interest , you know , this is how you pay , et cetera , et cetera . When I chose ER and I tell people this , hand to God , every time I had zero clue of the annual salary .

Zero , zero clue of the annual salary . All right , I chose ER . One I wanted to be the Jack of all trades , master of none . I love that aspect . Two , I swear it , you can ask anyone . Two , it is the only specialty that I know where I can see 100% of the patients who come to me and not ask them directly to their face how much money you got on you .

You know what I'm saying , so I never have to do that and that was my thing .

The ER is the only place where it's like all right , thank you for coming in . You know your bill will be sent to you and you can get full care . Even yesterday I saw a man . You know all he needed . He told me straight up , trying to get to Wisconsin . It's cold outside , all right , you know how much I charged him . I don't know .

Here's your turkey sandwich . Sit here . You're medically checked out . You're good to go . So when I found out what the salary was , I definitely was like dope . But to me going into medicine , I assumed which is a bad assumption , y'all , because I know now different every doc at minimum made 100K at minimum . I thought that was the floor .

Going into medicine was 100K . So I knew where my loans were and I kind of told myself all right , if I live like a resident , 10 years should be paid off or five years be paid off . I did terrible math , not factoring other things , but I assumed it would be paid off . I have never met a doctor 20 years into their job , regardless of specialty , say .

Man , these loans are still kicking my butt . So I knew it was going to be paid off . So I just chose specialty I wanted to do and not the one that was going to get paid off the fastest .

Right ? And that's like , for example , like me , when I first started at Morehouse , I was making what my first year was like thirty nine thousand dollars a year . You know , I was literally at what my dad was making , maybe a little bit higher , and stuff like that .

And you know , it was just , I was fine , but I also knew that I was ducking calls from Sally May , like they were calling me like yo , you know your grace period is up , right , like , and you know , we know you got the coupon book .

We haven't gotten any of the coupon pages back when you paying , and I'm like yo , I can't afford to pay this right now , so I'm gonna call you back right . And you just keep doing it over and over and over again .

Do you think that kind of going into medical school or going to health professional schools is just kind of like listen , I got the grit , I got the determination and this is what I've always wanted to do , Never mind what the financials of what this is going to be ?

Do you think that you should still have that type of mindset which is like , don't worry about the money , It'll take care of itself , you just try to get in and you graduate and you'll be all right ? Do you think that's the wise choice to do ?

If you , at the end of your day , want to be happy with the specialty you're in , how much you're making in the life you're living , I think that's the decision you have to make , because you may make a decision that will make you not happy in the long run and I know there's someone out there listening like I hate when you're all positive about things , man .

So I'm just saying it doesn't matter .

That's gonna make you smile , that you can write a book about that . You could be on a podcast on after you were up 12 hours afterwards to talk about it because you're so happy . That's what you should do .

I have this joke . I tell all my mentees and I'm going to ask you the same question Amy or Dr Ne , when are you going to pay your light bill off ? At the end of the month ? No , no , no , no , no . When is your light bill going to be zero and you're not going to owe any more on your light bill ? When is it going to be zero ?

It never is basically Exactly that's how .

The goal is not to get it paid off Like you don't have like a timeline in terms of trying to pay it off early .

So we basically said , all right , boom , yours paid off . Let's try it in five years because it was way lower . If we can aim mine for 10 years post-attendingship , right . I think everyone should know that . I don't think you should be counting your years of residency as paying off your loans . That's minimum .

Don't let Sally Mae come find you or make phone calls , payments . They come Post attending ship . Yeah , they come 10 years post . That was it and it was like that's when we think we should do it . We weren't rushing . 10 years seemed appropriate . We did the calculations , that's fact and we're on track .

However , remember y'all , your income base is based off your income , not your business income or the dividends you get from your business .

I do pay way over what they want to pay , because they will hand you 20 and 30 year plans everyone , because they need that interest payment . That's yo . Let me tell you something right now .

By the time 20 years was done we would have been at like 1.2 million dollars of principal and interest and watch them .

Maybe you want more control over when you work or even how much you work , or , look , you're just trying to make more money to pay off those damn student loans . Now the other thing is pay attention . The average locum's doc gets paid at least 33% more than your average employed doc . You got your attention now so look , I get it .

Sometimes the hardest part is where do I start ? You start your research at locumstorycom . Once again . That's locumstorycom . It's an unbiased educational resource about locum tenants . There you're going to find stories about the different reasons why doctors choose locums and how it works for them .

Locumstorycom has tools that let you explore locum's pay demand for your specialty and even compare different locum tenants agencies . So , look , stop sitting on a fence or just thinking about it . Start doing on the fence or just thinking about it . Start doing . Do your own research at locumstorycom . Once again , that's locumstorycom . It's easy .

So I think you definitely have a different perspective on things because it looks like you knew the money was going to be there . But for you the goal was I want to be a doctor .

I'm going to be a doctor Financial wise because , like I think there's something to be said for if you gonna be a doctor financial wise because , like I think there's something to be said for if you didn't spend that that much , if you didn't spend a lot of money growing up , or if you didn't spend a lot of money while you were trying to get into medical

school . Usually when you jump into new money , it's not that big of an issue afterwards , right ? that's kind of like me and Renee , like we didn't spend much money . So now that we got a lot of money , budgeting is actually easy for us because we don't really spend money at all .

So you but for you , you look at it as the money will take care of the loans eventually yeah , not stress about it . Whereas for me , I think there was like a very visceral pain point , which was I don't want to live in royal rule america . I want to be close to my family , um , and I feel like it's in cr .

It's impinging on the way how I wanted to live . So I just knew that that was the pain point . I needed to pay that off . For the folks that are listening right now , you're starting to see more tweets .

You're starting to see people on social media talk about like yeah , I'm getting towards the end of my fourth year of medical school and I didn't realize the implications of what I got into . I may have some regret , but I'm still going to keep moving forward .

Or you have some people who are in residency and they're like yo why don't they just increase our pay ? They got the money to do it . Why don't they increase our pay ? To those who say things like that it can't just be like yo , don't worry about that , just graduate .

What are your thoughts on the current situation where , like , literally , there's a study that says that next year the average we're at 240 or 250 for average student loan debt which is graduating , medical school and undergrad , but they're saying it's going to jump to $300,000 in a year . What are your thoughts on that ?

Because you had a lot of student loan debt , but during that time the average was a lot lower . Same thing with me . I had a lot of student loan debt , but during that time the average was a lot lower . Same thing with me . I had a lot of student loan debt . I borrowed way more than what the average was , just because of the socioeconomic type stuff .

What do you say for people like that , who are just like yo , like bing , bing , bing . It's a problem for me . I'm thinking about it , I'm thinking about it . What do you say for them ?

You said your salary I'm just using numbers you've already thrown out there is about $39,000 . Right , my salary in residency was 48,000 . So I'm already 9K ahead of you , right ? So someone would say , hey , look , we increased the salaries of residency 9K in what five , 10 years ? I'm like okay , but what happens to the cost of living ? That also went up .

So I guarantee you , like our cost , they're going to keep moving the needle . But when they move that needle of like like all right , we're paying you more as a resident everything else in society will probably go up . So then that person's probably saying , well , why not match ? Or why not match ? I think it's possible .

You know a lot of the residents you've been talking on this podcast as well . Uh , unionizing out here . Uh , someone on the west coast did it with britain , britain or uk residents did it . Yeah , so it's possible . That can get us more , but you always have to .

I'm the type of person that believes your salary must always depend on where you want on the totem , right . So , all right , there is someone attending out there who's at 100K right now . Right , they're in family medicine or P's or something , because they are the salt of the earth and they're going to have their wings immediately .

Right , they're at 100K right now . A resident can't pass that , so that has to be our ceiling , right . So what is that ? 80 , 70 , 60 ? I mean , some residencies out there are already paying 70 .

I was never in the camp of you should be in the hospital 20 hours a day each day and only have one day off , and then on your day off you should be reading . I never understood that , because I feel like you get more learning as you do . So tell me enough to not harm people , and I will continue to learn for the rest of my life .

Is that number found in something I know thousand times ? You're a expert or whatever . Yeah 10,000 hours or something like that . Yeah , and I get that , but you only need 10,000 hours of residency . You know what I'm saying ? That's what like . So instead of chasing the pay , I say let's chase the hours . That's where I am on the residency lifestyle .

If we notice statistics show that the majority of people who are in medical school come from you know well-to-do families and so forth , when we continue to make the price of medical school really high , it's going to continue to be a barrier for people who one can't afford it and have to take out more loans . They're going to get intimidated by that .

But then also , at the same time , not only are those people who might be able to get through and they will get through it's still going to be a major situation once they actually become attendings , because now you've taken someone out of a certain socioeconomic status . We know . You know what I'm talking about , right .

But , then when you become the beacon of light , light , the Statue of Liberty for your family and now , not only are you , do you have to support mom and dad and possibly even family members it's like okay if salaries aren't keeping up with the exponential rate of how medical school is going . It's like okay .

So before I was poor , now I'm really poor and now I'm starting to make money , but it's not keeping up with what my student loans are like . What are we really creating ?

Like , are we kind of forcing people who don't make money to be like sit down and you stay there and this is gonna can be , this is gonna continue to be a lifestyle or an educational path for those who have the money and are willing to spend it and sacrifice ?

That's my fear , right , it's like you look at people who are gonna have to do a lot of sacrifice to get up to this point . Say , now you sit down , because now it's gonna be worth four hundred thousand and we know damn sure you're not going to be able to pay for that . What you're going to do then . That's my fear .

But I'll guarantee you right now , all you orthopods out here and in the US are not making orthopod money in the UK , right , right , right . Because healthcare is subsidized when your government controls the money . And first off , let me just say this out here , if anyone can attack me , I'm not pro these things .

I just like pointing out these things to people , right ?

out there . General has to be , there has to be a barrier , because to be a barrier if there was no barrier , everyone would do it . That's one thing all the people who control the education knobs understand , right , that's not Shouldn't it be that way ?

I'm not sure you know , people can blame the internet whatever they want , but when you walk on a plane and you walk through first class , it's like what ? 12 seats in first class , sometimes maybe 16 , right , they've already buried the number of people that can get in that immediately off-rep .

Now for the one like cost goes up . So then they keep moving things every single time .

If you look at your undergrad right now and I've worked with undergrads , right , I said that earlier every year you got to sit and adjust your tuition to move up because there's a slider between who's gonna pay it , how are they gonna pay it and how are they gonna look at us when they pay it .

Right , everybody out there right now , you know , with your scrubs or backpack or shoes or car , you know the price tag of those things and if the value was lower you may not be as interested . It'd be the exact same product you can look up . Um , I think payless did this before they went out of business .

Rip , uh , they madea shoe store and they called it like pele , like they changed the name on it , but all the shoes inside were still payless shoes and they like changed the price tag . People are coming on these shoes are awesome . They're amazing . Blah blah . They were all Payless shoes and they exposed it to everyone . They're like oh , you're kidding .

Blah , blah , blah , but Payless is gone now . But Nike's still out here collecting all them checks on sneakers . I still can't get on the sneaker app . I'm buying off of whatever StockX for 200% , because when you bought my fake shoes .

So that's why these medical schools continue to adjust the cost as they're moving forward . So , yes , the body's not mutating , but society is Inter forward . So , yes , the body's not mutating , but society is . Interest rates are . They're going to continue to go up and that's what's sliding . Everyone and students are already doing it .

The numbers show primary care is dropping and I think , if we want to get that number up , student loan forgiveness ain't it , because , again , student loan forgiveness is finite . That is , oh yeah , I'll give you $300K right now . Boom . You don't earn it for the rest of your life . If you want to keep people going , the cost of primary care has to go up .

But the problem there is most of their funding comes from government , because kids all have insurance . They all have state insurance . These wellness visits don't pay as much as a post-op visit .

For the most part , when you really do an investigation and you go through the red tape and all of that stuff , rarely is that stuff equating to an increase in pay for professors or an improvement in the education , like an improvement in like facilities specifically for education .

But a lot of times it goes into improving , maybe , the gymnasium , improving , you know , the sleeping facilities , the dormitories , or making a really nice cafeteria .

Because what we're seeing now is that there's a steady state in terms of the competition between colleges and there's only so much you can say well , professor A is going to be able to recruit people to know school A and professor B . It's really about , well , how nice do you really want it in college ? Right , and that is ultimately becoming the .

That's ultimately becoming the . You know the deciding factors what kind of amenities do you have ? And in medical school it's like , yeah , like I get it , like I know I got to go through this . I know I got to walk through the desert and I got to have cups of water in my hands . I got to go through this . Yes , sir , may I have more ?

Yes , ma'am , can I have more like that ? But like damn , like , does tuition really have to exponentially increase on a yearly basis just to prove that I want to be a doctor and I get it ? We're never going to answer that question , but I got your point , but that's just .

That's just my mindset , which is like this is crazy , but like let's , let's , let's get to the go ahead , go ahead what you want to say when it comes to tuitions , you are correct .

So salary for any school is the number one driver of tuition . Every professor may not get a increase in pay because the tuition went up , but it is the number one driver Inside knowledge .

Because they need us to kind of say , hey , look , on the far end spectrum , this is how things are done in the medical field . Or we were sitting in your chairs and this is the mistakes we made . Here's how we're going to guide you , here's how we're going to help you .

One of those board members also sits on the executive committee , which is basically in function monthly , whereas the board meets quarterly . So I have to go to the monthly meetings and again be that same professional board member in the room and say , yeah , do that , don't do that . That's a smart idea , great idea .

Or let me think about that , or let me bring you guys some resources that you may not have on this . So , the professional board members of the EC I'm up there with the chair , the president monthly , and the executive director and the whole executive committee staff .

don't do crazy stuff and run amok .

So that's what we're out there doing on a monthly basis on the EC quarterly for my other colleagues , but you on the EC quarterly for my other colleagues , but you still work with students on the whole board as a whole . So SMA as a whole . Student National Medical Association understands these costs of livings and everything else .

Right now I feel like a lot of what they're doing is pushing the policy , because they know the numbers is driven by so many knobs , it's a lot harder . So the National Medical Association does have their HPLA Health Policy and Legislative Advocacy Committee . We're out there on the Hill , they're going to the Capitol , they're talking about these things all the time .

They make they write letters , we publish them , we meet with people and we also have relationships with certain businesses and medical schools , right . So SNMA partners with AstraZeneca . We have grants from them , we talk with them , we send them what we do as an organization and they help do some of our funding , right , you know tit for tat .

We're here , we're together now Big business nonprofit organization let's change the world . Snma has their president sit on the NMA , which is the National Medical Association . They're part of their board . It's like a student member , right .

So now they're on a bigger platform , bigger advocacy , going out there , working directly with physicians in those roles to do different things and , of course , we have several relationships with med schools around the countries .

I like to believe that the partnership SNMA has with a lot of the institutions has sponsored a lot of things to help with that debt that we talk about so much , right , okay ?

They said help us publish this , help us do this , let's partner together . Boom , we're going to take that . Put it to our student interest group , send that out there , make sure people know that these things exist .

You know , and it just goes up . But that's what you have to do . I know no one applying to ortho , applying less than 20 programs . You know like that's like the base , so you have to have your money up for all these things and they don't want no one wants these bears of entry anymore . A

lot of our student national medical association chapters again work with other residency programs . They have interest group meetings , they have Zoom meetings . We have all these diversity initiatives now at these organizations and I like to feel like S&M is a little kindling fire to keep those things going .

And I think , from my perspective , I always look at SNMA in terms of the social kind of bailout that I needed , right , because a lot of times you feel like you're on an island at your medical school or you may feel like you're in a silo and it's great to kind of come back and meet with like-minded people who come from maybe similar backgrounds , who maybe

have similar struggles , who can give you great similar ideas on how to kind of make it your way through financially , socially or even just career-wise . I think that's really for me the key thing as to why we're giving back , at least from my perspective .

Now , renee , obviously as a chairperson emeritus , obviously you know SNMA means that much more to her because you know she is , that's in her blood , it's in my blood , but it's really in her blood and stuff . So that's in her blood , it's in my blood , but it's really in her blood and stuff . So that's really important .

I want people listening to really understand that there's some work being done by SNMA to really help students get through this process with as little debt as possible , and I think that's ultimately .

My message to people is that , listen , when I did it , I remember when I looked at my application I'll end it like this when I looked at my application to apply for financial aid my first year , there's a space there that says that you know this is even before that there's like a schedule that says OK , you know you're going to need this much for books and

it'll give you like an approximate . You'll need this much for . You know supplies , you'll need this much for an apartment in Kansas City . You , you know supplies , you'll need this much for an apartment in Kansas City . You may didn't need this much for transportation and it'll . It will give you like the total amount that you need , right .

And then underneath it it says how much do you want to ask for ? And it's blank and it literally said you could put in like zero up to whatever you want and I put in maximum . Right , that's what I wrote . I'd even write at a dollar amount . I wrote maximum , give me everything .

Right , even though I was living in a place where I was paying 270 bucks a month for a rent . Um , you know , I had a used car and I was paying my dad back in the loans and stuff like . I was able to keep my finances low . But I just always had the mindset of I don't want to have to ask my parents for anything .

Right , like I told my parents I was going to become a doctor and , god damn it , I'm going to be a doctor and I'm never going to ask them for anything . Not because they would throw it in my face , but if I knew if I asked them for something , they would worry , and I didn't want them to worry . I wanted them to know that Nii had this .

But in response to that , I ended up taking way more debt than I should have . Right , I graduated 2006 with $240,000 , which is way ahead than what the average medical student at that time is taking similar to you . Right , like you are way ahead than what the average medical student should be taking in 2015, .

Right , but it just so happens like we come from backgrounds where we're just like look , I ain't asking my parents for nothing because they ain't got nothing .

I don't want them to worry and I'm going to figure this out , and I sometimes want to craft a message for them to let people know like , listen , try to decrease the amount of debt that you're taking out maximum on a yearly basis . Try to decrease that , and just also know that you're going to make enough , like you said after residency .

You're going to make enough to pay it back . The question is is how fast do you want to pay it back ? The question is is where do you want to be in your career ? And how much is debt ? How much is how much you make financial implications ? How much is that going to play into your career trajectory ? And that's all I'm saying

.

I can't come and kill myself , which means I wasn't made for this life to suffer , you know like you guys hear that accent coming out , yeah , that maximum out . Would I have owed Sally Mae $20,000 less if I didn't take it For sure ?

But would it have changed a granular thing on the trajectory of residency to where I am now as an attending Again , I'd have $20,000 more that I would have paid somebody else . I feel like right . So you know I come in to the students a lot . You know don't go out there and buy a bottle every weekend after a test . You know that's crazy .

But if after one semester you need a little extra cash to just sit down with the friends and toast , I mean enjoy life .

You know we all play that little game house or a little thing where you move and everything and you've already planned when you want to have kids , what type of house you want to live in , what city you want to live in .

You can Google the average for all those things right now and determine how much you're going to need to make and whatever , whatever , and your loans are going to be there . When people do a credit check , they separate your education based loans from your car loan , your unpaid city circuit , city credit card .

You know a lot of people don't know it's like a city out there . They can separate that debt and you know , even when we talk to people in finances , there's good debt and there's bad debt . Education has never been considered bad debt and they always know you're going to get it all Look , hey , now , if you don't finish , you've killed yourself .

That's why income-based exists , so you can kind of like live through it . But just know , when you do income-based you're usually stretching it a little longer because they want all of that interest . So choose an amount that you can live off of that you'll be happy with that .

Maybe one New Year's you can say hey guys , we're going to Colorado , you know something like that and enjoy life . Or maybe you decide you want to come to the 60th annual medical education conference for snma I was wondering when you're going to segue into that man .

You're leaving them out in the cold I'm supposed to come into it in new orleans easter weekend . Right , maybe you want to use a couple of your loan dollars on that meter to come down there get your battery Reach or your office of diversity affairs should be paying for this already .

I would go there and be like I'm ready for the year , like I'd be hyped up , I'd be studying again , I'd be pushing myself , you'd ready to run through a wall when you leave amec and for all those old heads who are listening , attendings who are like , oh , I don't go to amec , no more , I don't have the hours , my battery's full , you're missing out or you

can help . We do a lot of talking about money . A lot of y'all have a little extra pocket change $5 , $10 a year . Sma is trying to do a campaign 600 for the 60th , 600k for 60 years . Price just went up y'all . You can donate . You can go to snmaorg right now . Leave a donation . $5 helps I know it sounds corny and you always listen to those things .

$5 ain't going to help y'all at 600K . What if 600,000 people gave $5 ? Boom , we're already there , right ? And we know how many people listen to Docs Outside the Box podcast . We know how many people need them . Tax write-offs we know people know the game . Just do a little write-off to the business Five $10 . I know people got more than that .

You're probably holding your Starbucks coffee right now with the extra espresso in it . You can go one Lex Espresso donate to S&MA . Boom . Now you've done a good deed . Now you can feel good about yourself . Please help us . Please help us .

This is important , right , because more than likely , the studies show that that student who comes from minority background is going to come into a rural neighborhood and practice with a rural population or a suburban population . I practice trauma surgery mainly in rural neighborhoods and stuff , right , and I'm the only African-American doctor there and stuff .

I don't have any qualms about that at all . I take care of them like they were my family and so forth . So it affects everybody in so many different ways and stuff . So it's very important that everybody take a listen to this .

It's very important that we all decide that we're going to support this organization because it really does great things and it's very inclusive . I'll just leave it at that . So listen , dr Love . Where can people go to learn more about the 60th anniversary SMA , amac and maybe even get in touch with you ?

Tell them all of that before we end the show , all right ?

We have business partnerships with Delta for lower costs to fly to New Orleans for all the Delta people who need the medallions points and SkyMiles . Now you know those went up too , so you can use that link if you want to . All the information's there . If you want to get in contact with me , I'm also on the socials .

You can use the professional tag first , t4d underscore . Dr Donnie , I do work with Tour for Diversity as well , and that's kind of the IG I post most of my information on . You can also find me on Twitter Evil , which is just love backwards underscore thoughts . I don't post as much anymore . Are we allowed to call it Twitter , is it ?

X now you can find me there , but my main goal between now and Easter is hustle up AMEC . Everything you're going to hear from me is going to have SMA attached to it in some way , shape or form , so keep your eyes open .

And also check out our previous episode , where you'll find out what me , or how much me and Dr Renee are contributing to the Student National Medical Association . This stuff is important for everybody from every walk of life to understand the cost of medical school and what it means for people who are going to come into your respective neighborhoods .

Make sure you guys check those out . We're going to catch you guys on the next episode of Docs Outside the Box , y'all , peace , peace .