MIT Neurosurgeon who quit medicine to Live Off-Grid.#424

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I don't know why I'm saying we got a lot of things to talk about . We're going to talk about this neurosurgeon who I don't know if you guys have seen the video , but we're going to feature his video . But this is the neurosurgeon who's MIT trained and I don't know why they say MIT trained neurosurgeon . Mit doesn't even have a medical school .

Right , like I hate when people do stuff , I'm an MIT trained neurosurgeon . I didn't even realize MIT doesn't have a medical school , so MIT did not train you to be a doctor . So he should take that off of his YouTube channel , but I think he did that for a fact .

So we gonna talk about how this neurosurgeon who quit his job and he is out in the middle of nowhere , like you know cooking deer and cooking , you know cooking deer and cooking , you know whatever it is , and he's just enjoying his life , he put out a video and everybody's like talking about this because it's like well , why would a neurosurgeon quit ?

Why would an MIT trained neurosurgeon just quit ? It's very interesting . So , and then I'm about to whoop Renee's ass in good old surgical skill , because we all know trauma surgeons , general surgeons we can yeah , we can whoop that ass in the operating field .

So why don't you show them real quick what our body , our cadaver looks like real quick , show them that .

see . Look at this one .

I'm just saying the patient should be asleep , okay , well , his eyes are open and you know he doesn't need , he doesn't actually need to be asleep because maybe he's like under regional , maybe he got epidural All right , yo Spinal , shout out to everyone who's on here Listen , let's jump into this , all right , so let's talk about this neurosurgeon .

Basically , imagine yourself going to be , you're freaking , camping out in the middle of nowhere and you meet some guy who is like really super smart and he knows about all these different things out in , you know , in the outdoors , and he just happens to be a neurosurgeon . So that's exactly what we found out .

This guy has had a pretty good youtube presence where he just features , you know , asmr of different types of sights and sounds out in the woods , and he's been doing this for keep going back . I can't recall how far he's been going back with this .

He's been going back a while at least six months I think maybe four months he's been going back and he doesn't show himself . It's just the sights and sounds that he sees .

It's got 10 million views .

And nobody understood why I quit . People would ask but you know , a decision that involves 20 years of your life you can't really answer in a couple minutes and most people don't have time to sit and listen to .

And then there's other people who really just needed surgery , right as opposed to being their surgeon . And then there's other people who really just needed surgery Right . And he started realizing that that approach of listen , you don't need surgery , what you need is this non-surgical method . You need this lifestyle management .

You need to stop smoking , you need to , you know , get out into the out in the woods and start walking . You need to start . You know . You need to lose weight Right . That doesn't make a hospital money Right .

And as a result , he started realizing there's this dichotomy of , yeah , like I'm doing things that are going to get great outcomes for the patient and that may not include surgery Right , but that doesn't make the hospital money , that doesn't make them happy .

go to medical school during the day , and then in the evening , afternoon , evening , we would go to business school , right , and so what would happen is , during the day it would be prevent disease , prevent disease , prevent disease . Business school .

It was like you know how much money you could make if you didn't prevent disease , right , and it wasn't as blatant as that . But I started to kind of understand just by seeing some of the trends of the conversations that we were talking about in business school and I was like , hmm , it's a really interesting dichotomy .

You probably have this huge amount of cash that you left and now that's it , no-transcript in you . This is the differences that I see in you .

Um , so I know with you in your past you were in a situation where , um , you were in a situation in residency your first year residency that you just were not enjoying it , you hated it , you felt like you were being hazed and rather than just kind of go through that , you just said I'm out , I'm leaving this residency Didn't have any plans as to going to

another residency program , didn't have any plans . You were just going to figure it out . So , knowing that story where you know he just left without having a plan B , without having this huge trust fund or without having this huge , you know stockpile of money , your thoughts on that ?

You know , am I going to just assimilate and just become , you know , this person that is just like all of these other people . Like what is going to happen to me ? You start , you really start worrying about yourself , right , your well-being , and then the dignity that you're losing .

You know , as you're going through this process , Luckily , things were able to turn around for me , but my thought process at the time was you know what ? I'm smart and I'll figure it out . And I didn't have necessarily the worry about the student loan debt I didn't worry so much about . Oh my God .

I can't do that . I think for me I would have put , I would have put up with it . I don't know if I was being hazed at my job I don't think I was but I think if I was in your situation I would put up with , because I just know my personality and I'm not saying that one is better than the other .

I actually respect the fact that you did that , I that you did that . I gave you mad props for that , remember , I was like are you sure you want to do this ?

And in my mind I'm like , damn man , she got mad guts because I don't know if I can go through four years of medical school having all that debt and not at least having a plan as to okay , am I going to go to the next surgery program ? Is there another surgery program in another state that I'm going to go to ?

Because there's always this fear of okay , if I leave this program , am I going to be able to get into another surgery program ? So what you did , I thought , was dope . I couldn't do it . I was . I would have been mad scared . I would have been like you know , I'm gonna ride this out .

I'm gonna get through this , the way in which I'm gonna make changes by , you know , not letting them change me , and all that stuff . So I think , fast forward , though , to this point where he's at . He talks about how he started gaining weight , a lot of weight . He started talking about how it started affecting his health .

Obviously , he started talking about how it affected his mental health . I think , when you're at that point , though , you got to leave . What do you think I mean ? Well , it's just a healthcare system in general , a healthcare system whether he goes to hospital a or he goes to another hospital 10 States away .

They don't have a problem with a neurosurgeon saying listen , you don't need back surgery , you need X , y and Z . They'd be like we brought you here to put screws and plates in .

That's what they care about , and if I brought you here to operate , then you are going to operate , right ? You start to feel like I would imagine that he would start to feel like a sleazy salesman , right ? Basically trying to sell you something that you know that this person doesn't need , but you want to sell it to them anyway , right ?

So , speaking , of operation .

Wait , wait , wait . I'm gonna read the question . Let me read the question so you know what you're gonna get wrenched ankle two hundred dollars . Sam sam fell down on the basketball court , which dr knee would never fall down on the basketball court because he knows them skills .

Water in the knee has got Sam feeling down . Take it out quick before his leg drowns . Right here , guys , water on the knee . If you can't see that , you got to be changing behind it .

In Sam's leg , there's a horse named Charlie . It's got a Charlie horse . Look at this , yo . First of all , you be giving . Look at this , look at where this horse is . You can , you can move it so that you can actually see there you go . Okay , let's move the mic , you keep , okay , but I don't think that you actually would have .

I don't think you actually would have listened to me because with your career , you are , you are extremely up . That's it . Yeah , okay , very good , don't forget , I'm an OBGYN . I work in small spaces . With your career , you are extremely Move on , move on .

The way how I look at things has changed since , um , well , definitely since residency , right , because I think once I finished residency , once I finished training , I've been more I my mind quickly changed to like , oh wait , like you just look at me like like I'm a cog in the wheel , right , like whether or not I show up , you guys , it just keeps moving ,

right , and you guys don't care if whatever happens in my family , whatever happens , you just want a surgeon here to do the operations and that's it , and that's great . The patients need that , right , they need someone there for them all the time . They need a hospital that's working . They need surgeries , surgeons , all that stuff .

I get all that , but at the same point , like , if all you're doing to make that happen is sacrificing everything that you have personally , then what is there for you to pick up at the end , right , right , so that's the part where I was like , oh man , like I gotta be really careful about this because , yeah , if I'm saving lives , like I do right now , and

I'm doing it all the time but you just beat you just buzz this man twice , but I don't have you there .

One right Show the people . Show the people . Give the people what they want . So I think now you definitely look at things much differently . But in residency I could see you completely just not even listening to me .

And if you know me , nothing was going to derail me from becoming a surgeon at that point . Well , and I'm not saying that's a good thing , I'm just letting you know like that's how focused I was , and sometimes you have to be like that . That works .

But I think there has to be a level of maturity and a point to realize , like , like , what's really going on here ? Because I think when you have that mindset of no matter what you're going to get through it , you have to be careful , right , because you start to accept things that you shouldn't accept .

In order to get to that point , right , like if you , if you were like this and like anytime you saw some BS , you're like , yeah , f that . And you spoke up and you said I don't , I'm not going to tolerate this . That's one thing . But most people are just like look , I got to get through . You're going to accept some stuff that you really shouldn't accept .

You're going to make some bends in your integrity that you shouldn't , you know , do and stuff .

And some people , you know some people are willing to do or willing to put up with very questionable , you know questionable , acts . Hey , who got it ? Who got it ? Who got it ? Who got it ?

You had two that were unsuccessful . Okay , so the game is over , right ? I win . If you want to end it now , because you know I'm on a roll , go ahead . Well , you're on a roll , you on a roll , anyway .

So they're talking about that child actor , drake . I forget his last name , but Drake Bell , he was on Drake and Josh , josh and Drake . I don't know , I didn't have cable back then . I didn't have cable either , but his father mentions that he was always within eye's sight . Right , he was always within eye's sight of his son .

So that you know , anytime , anything , anytime anyone interacted with him , that he you keep talking I'm just going to cover your eyes Anytime anyone interacted with him , that he would basically it's mirrored . Yeah , he would basically be in you know within , within , you know seats . Basically , you would see him . He would be there with him .

He started noticing that guy . What was his name ? David something or whatever the hell . His name was David Peck . Right , he started noticing that the guy was like literally touching his son , not inappropriately , but just weirdly right , like he would go , he would like help him get dressed with things that he didn't really need to get dressed with .

He was a teenager , he didn't need to get dressed , or he was like a young preteen , he didn't need to get dressed with that . So then his father went over and talked to whomever and they were like oh well , you know , that's just the way he is X , y and Z , and his father was like OK and like , but didn't you know , his dad was up on game .

And then what they did is they castigated him as the bad parent , the opinionated parent , and then he got ostracized and his son ends up ostracizing him , and then Drake got got , basically , and now he feels the father feels really guilty .

At what point do you walk away , even though it is the thing that you absolutely said that you wanted to do away , even though you know this is something that they really , really want to do , but they don't understand the implications of being in this industry .

And , depending on how far you're being what you're being guided by , right , if you're being guided by fame , if you're being guided by money , you probably need to see that in your face . Like I need to see my son or my daughter physically being X , y and Z .

If you're in surgery or if you're in a surgical program or if you're in any type of program , I need to physically have someone like literally like insult me , hit me , um , or like so if it's an insult , that's , that's nothing or abuse you in some form or way . When I said insult , I meant like insult in a very um you mean assault , not insult .

You can change the I to an a . Yeah , we could change the . We could change the vowel right and make it , and make it at a and then and then everybody's getting insulted and then , if that's the case , then yeah , they need to see it . I think some people , like I , would need to be that , would have needed to be me .

Which is you have to like , show me that , like if I continue this , that this is bad for my health or I'm playing myself by going on . That's how I was .

If , if you show me that I'm playing myself right , if I see in my own actions that I'm playing myself , then I would be like I'm out , because for me you know me already my dignity is a really big thing . I'm really big on ego . So if I see that I'm in situations where I'm playing myself , then I'm out , and I think that's how it is for most people .

Hold on , hold on , come on , stop trying to stall Broken heart . Tell Sam , there are plenty of fish in the sea .

Um , you know , you just think that , how about this ? Read it to me . And then you say , your point , hold on , we got to fix this camera . You think that it's going to be the best thing since sliced bread . You think that you know it's just going to be great . And so you're very .

It takes a while , I think , for the disillusion to set in for a lot of people .

I think it takes a , I think it takes a long while for the disillusion to set in for , for when they realize , like , hold on a second , you know , they said medicine was going to be wonderful , I thought that the buck was going to stop with me , and you realize that you know what , there's a lot in medicine that you have to put up with .

That you just never anticipated , you know . So I don't . Oh Lord , this damn camera , you know . So I don't know , like I don't know what to tell medical students and residents , except for just share my story and just say how much are you willing to take .

I think is the question right If you're at a point at which , oh he got it , guys , damn Whatever .

If you're at a point where you feel like you know you are unwell , if you are at a point where you are questioning you know , your life , your purpose , why you're here , what it is that you're doing with your life , then at that point I would say , yeah , you might need to reconsider .

You know , at least the environment that you're in , at least the environment that you , that you are in .

I will say for my case for my case , I didn't have a plan per se in terms of what I was going to do if I truly left the residency . So , you know , I put in my resignation and I was , I was literally ready to just like leave , and again my circumstances change . But I did consider , well , you know , going to another residency program .

That was something that I considered . It was something that I actually desired as well , and so I was like you know what , I'll just kind of figure it out . If I'm you know , I'll look for another residency program to apply to .

I did start looking for other residency programs but again , you know , I was kind of encouraged to stay by the chairperson and I said fine , you know I'll , I'll do that .

There's how you feel about something before you get to that point and then what happens when you get there . There's the reality , and then there's also what's in your mind and I would just say listen , medicine is still great , being a physician , being a healthcare professional , is still great . But I just think you got to be very intentional about things .

You got to know what you want to get out of this . If you want to help your community , then you have to be very you got to watch . You got to watch how the people who you're learning from , how they move Right , so you're attendings . If the chief residents oh , you got it , damn , baby . I guess I got that soothing voice that helps you , nice and calm .

So you want I just instill confidence , instill confidence in you you want to take credit for everything ?

I think what has happened now is you have more doctors who are able to , you know , get out there and say things on blogs , youtube , podcasting , and just say , hey , look like the way in which I thought this was going to be is not the way how it is right now . Right , just like the same thing with that . Is not the way how it is right now .

Right , just like the same thing with that . Remember , like several years ago , he had that issue with the white coat investor and that tweet where we had that medical student who was finishing medical school and she puts down that yo , I'm about to graduate with like 200 stacks of student loan debt .

I had no clue that I was going to have to be dealing with this .

You know I want to help my community , I want to help my family , but how am I going to be doing that when I'm starting off with like a parachute off in this race and you know , the white coat investor comes in and says , like this is the epitome of illiteracy , basically financial illiteracy . Right , and a lot of people didn't like it .

Right , some people agreed with it , a lot of people didn't like it . But you know , that's an example of right message , wrong messenger . Right , like they're not trying to hear it from him and stuff , and we can get into that for all sorts of reasons . Right .

But knowing that you have a lot of student loan debt , but still having a passion to be a doctor , the question is , well , if you know that you want to be a doctor , how passionate are you to bypass that debt ? Do you see what I'm saying ? So what I'm saying to you guys is there's going to be some sacrifices that need to be made .

It's going to have to be some times where you have to , you know , close your nose or kind of you know , just deal with whatever you have to deal with . The question is , what's that thing that's so bothersome to you that you're like you know what I'm going to cash out ?

You have to have that conversation with yourself about that , as you're going into medical school , as you're in a residency and definitely once you become an attending , you're going to be faced with that on a daily basis .

And I think for me the thing that I had an issue with was I have a big time issue of someone telling me my time and dictating my time and what I can and can't do . From a clinical standpoint , those two things really upset me .

So when I can't , like just take time off , because I just can't take time off , even though I put in a whole bunch of hours and I put in a whole bunch of months and so forth , and I just want to have time to like either go to a funeral or I want to go and just have like a weekend off , but like I can't do that because someone literally said I'm

not moving you off the schedule , that bothers me . It really . That really just drives me nuts because I'm very like big into my independence and so forth .

The other thing in that same vein is you know , if someone has a condition and I'm doing something , that is the standard of care , and then somebody else says , well , no , you should do A , b , c , d , because I said that it's like , yeah , no , I mean you can just turn around , pass , go and go .

I've seen that a lot , and some people who are listening to the show , you know exactly what I mean . Right , you may have a chairperson , or you may have a division lead , or you may have somebody else who will say , well , you can't do this to this patient unless you do A , b , c and D . And it's like , well , who's in charge of this patient ?

Is it me or is it you ? Because if something goes wrong , you are not going to be in court defending the actions , it's going to be me . And if say , listen , I know everybody's like you guys talk about locums all the time . That's what ? For me , I think everybody should be locums . Every physician , every professional medical professional should be locums .

And then it separates everything it keeps the hospital or who pays for , you know , the facilities , the capital expenditures , all of these different things , the hiring and firing of certain other things , the admin , let all that stuff happen by the hospital . Right , and then that way you can keep everything as independent as possible .

I come in , I bring my knowledge and then I leave with my knowledge . You guys provide the facilities for me to do the things that I need to do . Knowledge , you guys provide the facilities for me to do the things that I need to do , but it's a separate relationship .

Now , I don't think independent contracting is for everybody , but I do think that hold on , hold on . But I do think that there's some people who it's for and they should do it a hundred percent . You see what I'm saying . But then there's some people who it's not for and you can do it 10% , you could do it 80% . You don't have to do the entire .

Your entire career does not have to be locums . That's all I'm saying . That's what I'm saying . Every physician , every medical professional should , in some form or fashion , be independent . And because I think that's the way , how , I think that's the nature of medicine , right Is your ? That's the way I look at it . I'm like my , my interests .

What I want may not necessarily be in same line as the profits that a hospital may want to get . And I think , in essence , that's what that neurosurgeon is saying , right ? So if I decide that I don't want to operate on someone , that should be fine . There should be no consequences to that .

And he's not saying that he felt consequences , but I think he felt as though , over time , there would be consequences to that . And if he go into a hospital in North Carolina , or if he went to a hospital in Colorado or he went to a hospital in California . Eventually that would have come up no-transcript so .

I don't even know what that means . So what are you getting out now ? The wrench ? Oh , that was the original one , the original wrench . I think we need to have a discussion at some point , maybe not today . Before you like , jump on your answer . Is working for a hospital potentially a conflict of interest ? You got cut , damn .

Is working for a hospital , working for getting paid by a hospital , potentially for a doctor , a conflict of interest ? I'd like to know what our audience thinks about that .

I would love for you guys to you know if you're listening to this this is live right now , but it's going to be recorded to go down and text us or send us a DM or whatever , but contact us because I would love to know what doctors think , potentially . I'm about to get this horse out . He's trying to get the horse out now .

I'd love to know what you guys think , because if you've ever been in a situation like me described right , where you got got me , you got got you lit up , if you've ever been in a situation , if you've ever been in a situation like me described , where you know you have kind of disagreed with something , right , you disagreed with a policy , but you you went

ahead and did it anyway . Because guess what , if you don't do it , you know you're going to get in trouble . It's going to have a detrimental effect on your career , on your life , on your whatever right On your pay , potentially right On your standing , on your standing .

But then the patient shows up like an hour later and everybody's gone because it's at the end of the day . But they showed up like 30 , 40 minutes late and then you guys close up shop and then you get in trouble for that . You get dinged for that . Should that be the case , Right , Like ?

I don't think that should be the case , but because of hospital policy and because the customer is always right in this situation , you get dinged for that .

But to receive some type of retribution for being gone afterwards , guys , this has happened , I'm telling y'all .

The biggest thing that I think you can learn from this is listen . Like life , your career , is not linear , right ? Like you could think that you're going in a straight line and you're ascending and there are times when you just have to take a detour . You can recover . And he said he may come back .

So just so you all know , there's ways in which , if he were to take several years off , he could come back and help himself get back into becoming a neurosurgeon . Like , sometimes you can get proctored by other neurosurgeons . You may have to do like an additional year of some training or something like that , but he'll figure it out in some form or fashion .

I never considered walking away , but there came a point where I was like man , like the debt is really pressuring me to make decisions that I don't want to make , and once we got that out of the way , for me that was a big game changer and I got the off my back and we could talk about that on future episodes .

So , as far as this game , I wrecked shop . You know how ? How did you wreck shop me ? You didn't see . They got the replay .

Everybody on Instagram , everybody on Facebook , everybody on YouTube . How did ?

Y'all peace peace .